Since BRAW is not so sharp, how to properly sharpen?

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psychodusk

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Since BRAW is not so sharp, how to properly sharpen?

PostWed Sep 11, 2019 10:21 am

Hey all,

I've recently bought the BMPCC4K and I'm loving it. Only downside at this moment for me is that it's less sharp than anything I've worked with. I've read that BRAW in general just less sharp than CinemaDNG for instance.

Anyway it's still RAW so it has a lot of possibilities. I'm using DaVinci Resolve to grade and Premiere to edit. What do you guys recommend for sharpening my BRAW footage? Or is there anything in the camera settings I can adjust so that my footage comes out as sharp as I'm used to?

Very curious!
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carlomacchiavello

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Re: Since BRAW is not so sharp, how to properly sharpen?

PostWed Sep 11, 2019 4:49 pm

Change lens, close a bit the iris, but not too much to avoid diffraction, use Q0 quality
two weeks ago i did a shooting with pocket4k, and result are tack sharp, sharper than i need.
TestSharpness01668368.jpg
TestSharpness01668368.jpg (918.85 KiB) Viewed 541 times

TestSharpness01669877.jpg
TestSharpness01669877.jpg (958.22 KiB) Viewed 541 times

frames braw extracted by Resolve.

remember that a too sharp footage is stroboscopic footage.
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John Griffin

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Re: Since BRAW is not so sharp, how to properly sharpen?

PostWed Sep 11, 2019 4:59 pm

What cameras are you comparing it to? How are you viewing your footage? are you viewing it 1:1 or downscalled?
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John Paines

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Re: Since BRAW is not so sharp, how to properly sharpen?

PostWed Sep 11, 2019 5:04 pm

You don't say what you're used to, but if what you want is consumer-level artificial sharpness, there's a sharpness setting in the camera itself. Just turn it on and up.

It's funny, because I routinely add a mist effect to BMPCC 4K material, if I don't have a Promist filter available at the time. The UHD braw footage is too sharp for my taste, even viewed at HD resolution.
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Jack Fairley

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Re: Since BRAW is not so sharp, how to properly sharpen?

PostWed Sep 11, 2019 8:50 pm

You're probably doing something wrong during acquisition. My 4K BRAW footage is actually distractingly sharp.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Since BRAW is not so sharp, how to properly sharpen?

PostWed Sep 11, 2019 9:57 pm

One scene with good light may be very sharp and next one (dark with noise) very soft. It's a beauty of BRAW and its fairly poor auto de-noising.
Last edited by Andrew Kolakowski on Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Since BRAW is not so sharp, how to properly sharpen?

PostWed Sep 11, 2019 9:59 pm

psychodusk wrote:Hey all,

I've recently bought the BMPCC4K and I'm loving it. Only downside at this moment for me is that it's less sharp than anything I've worked with. I've read that BRAW in general just less sharp than CinemaDNG for instance.

Anyway it's still RAW so it has a lot of possibilities. I'm using DaVinci Resolve to grade and Premiere to edit. What do you guys recommend for sharpening my BRAW footage? Or is there anything in the camera settings I can adjust so that my footage comes out as sharp as I'm used to?

Very curious!


If you shoot with low light BRAW is fairly heavily de-noised and it looses sharpness. Not much you can do about it as there is no control over it. Use better light or sharpen it in BRAW setting (although you can't really bring back original details killed by de-nosing).
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Cary Knoop

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Re: Since BRAW is not so sharp, how to properly sharpen?

PostWed Sep 11, 2019 10:18 pm

psychodusk wrote:What do you guys recommend for sharpening my BRAW footage?

4K footage does not need sharpening.

If it is not sharp, then either you use substandard lenses or your shot was out of focus.
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carlomacchiavello

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Re: Since BRAW is not so sharp, how to properly sharpen?

PostThu Sep 12, 2019 7:15 am

Lower light, lower iso
higher iso, higher noise mean more stronger noise reduction, but....
check these picture extracted from my shooting, when you shoot Q0 at 5000 iso keep the noise and keep dectails on the wall (usually i not shot at 5000iso, it's a stress test). Not sharp like first where i exposed correctly.
i cannot put on forum for size, here the direct link to 4k picture.

http://www.macchiavello.com/wp/wp-conte ... wQ5_01.jpg
http://www.macchiavello.com/wp/wp-conte ... BrawQ0.jpg
http://www.macchiavello.com/wp/wp-conte ... wQ0_02.jpg
http://www.macchiavello.com/wp/wp-conte ... wQ0_02.jpg
http://www.macchiavello.com/wp/wp-conte ... wQ0_03.jpg
http://www.macchiavello.com/wp/wp-conte ... BrawQ5.jpg
http://www.macchiavello.com/wp/wp-conte ... BrawQ0.jpg
http://www.macchiavello.com/wp/wp-conte ... .48.1.jpeg
the last is again Q0 at 1250 iso

keep lower iso to keep low the noise and later up the picture in post with gain.
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psychodusk

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Re: Since BRAW is not so sharp, how to properly sharpen?

PostMon Sep 16, 2019 10:46 am

Cary Knoop wrote:
psychodusk wrote:What do you guys recommend for sharpening my BRAW footage?

4K footage does not need sharpening.

If it is not sharp, then either you use substandard lenses or your shot was out of focus.

Well this is good to know. I'm using a Metabones speedbooster into a Canon L 24-70mm f2.8 so I'm definitely not using substandard lenses. I am just noticing a shift in sharpness between CinemaDNG/ProRes and BRAW on the same camera.

Maybe my lens needs a thorough cleaning. Just adding a tad of sharpening (0.01 - 0.02 points) also works well I noticed.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Since BRAW is not so sharp, how to properly sharpen?

PostMon Sep 16, 2019 9:36 pm

BRAW does internal de-nosing wich kills fine details as well. It's not your lens.
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John Paines

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Re: Since BRAW is not so sharp, how to properly sharpen?

PostMon Sep 16, 2019 10:33 pm

psychodusk wrote:I am just noticing a shift in sharpness between CinemaDNG/ProRes and BRAW on the same camera.


Noticing how? Actually watching footage, or with still images zoomed in at least 3x? This thread

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=91802

offers a well controlled assessment of the differences between the two formats, which can reasonably be described as "microscopic". Also note that cDNG defaults to added sharpening in the raw tab, an option not present for braw.

All that aside, 4K braw is subjectively sharp, often unpleasantly so. If projected 35mm film aesthetics are the standard, it's already far too sharp.
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psychodusk

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Re: Since BRAW is not so sharp, how to properly sharpen?

PostTue Sep 17, 2019 9:12 am

John Paines wrote:
psychodusk wrote:I am just noticing a shift in sharpness between CinemaDNG/ProRes and BRAW on the same camera.


Noticing how? Actually watching footage, or with still images zoomed in at least 3x? This thread

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=91802

offers a well controlled assessment of the differences between the two formats, which can reasonably be described as "microscopic". Also note that cDNG defaults to added sharpening in the raw tab, an option not present for braw.

All that aside, 4K braw is subjectively sharp, often unpleasantly so. If projected 35mm film aesthetics are the standard, it's already far too sharp.

Actually watching footage it's noticeable, but not obvious. When zooming in it's very well noticeable.

I didn't know cDNG defaults to added sharpening. Good to know.
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psychodusk

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Re: Since BRAW is not so sharp, how to properly sharpen?

PostTue Sep 17, 2019 9:14 am

carlomacchiavello wrote:Change lens, close a bit the iris, but not too much to avoid diffraction, use Q0 quality
two weeks ago i did a shooting with pocket4k, and result are tack sharp, sharper than i need.
TestSharpness01668368.jpg

TestSharpness01669877.jpg

frames braw extracted by Resolve.

remember that a too sharp footage is stroboscopic footage.

Just noticed that these images are indeed very sharp. What lens did you use?

And why should I use Q0 quality?
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Since BRAW is not so sharp, how to properly sharpen?

PostTue Sep 17, 2019 9:41 am

BRAW does a lot behind your back and this is "main problem". Any comparison will heavily depend on shooting condition- the less light and more noise the bigger difference. At some point it's not that microscopic.
Whole color difference (drop in blue channel) and halo described in mentioned thread are side effects of de-noising (blue channel is always noisiest, so it's de-noised stronger). BM needs de-noising to maintain BRAW data rate.
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Joshua_G

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Re: Since BRAW is not so sharp, how to properly sharpen?

PostTue Sep 17, 2019 10:42 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:BRAW does internal de-nosing wich kills fine details as well. It's not your lens.

Is there a way to control the amount of de-noising BRAW does on it’s own (besides lowering the ISO in the camera and/or lighting the shadows)?

What ISO to set in the camera before BRAW’s de-noising starts lowering the image sharpness?
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John Paines

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Re: Since BRAW is not so sharp, how to properly sharpen?

PostTue Sep 17, 2019 11:51 am

psychodusk wrote:And why should I use Q0 quality?


It retains the most detail, compared to higher compression options. You may also note that Prores HQ is sharper than the higher compression braw options. But if you can see the difference in normal viewing, with well lit properly exposed shots, your eyes are better than mine.
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psychodusk

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Re: Since BRAW is not so sharp, how to properly sharpen?

PostTue Sep 17, 2019 12:44 pm

John Paines wrote:
psychodusk wrote:And why should I use Q0 quality?


It retains the most detail, compared to higher compression options. You may also note that Prores HQ is sharper than the higher compression braw options. But if you can see the difference in normal viewing, with well lit properly exposed shots, your eyes are better than mine.

I find this very weird. I noticed ProRes HQ is indeed sharper than BRAW. How so? How can ProRes, which is essentially worse than BRAW, be sharper? I don't understand this.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Since BRAW is not so sharp, how to properly sharpen?

PostTue Sep 17, 2019 12:46 pm

On more time:
BRAW does internal de-noising wich kills fine details as well. Problem is not BRAW compression itself, but other pre-processing wich is happening behind the scenes.
Last edited by Andrew Kolakowski on Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Since BRAW is not so sharp, how to properly sharpen?

PostTue Sep 17, 2019 12:51 pm

Joshua_G wrote:
Andrew Kolakowski wrote:BRAW does internal de-nosing wich kills fine details as well. It's not your lens.

Is there a way to control the amount of de-noising BRAW does on it’s own (besides lowering the ISO in the camera and/or lighting the shadows)?

What ISO to set in the camera before BRAW’s de-noising starts lowering the image sharpness?


No and I would say this is the weakest point of BRAW. We could get eg. at least 2 settings for de-noising strength. Problem is that when BM weakens de-noising, bitrate for Q modes will raise (it can be a lot for noisy footage), so this may cause recording issues. It's not like de-noising is there for no reason :D
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Re: Since BRAW is not so sharp, how to properly sharpen?

PostWed Sep 18, 2019 9:21 am

Thanks, Andrew.
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