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BUG? Fusion 9 won't load Cineform MOV files (but 8 will)

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Mark Spink

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BUG? Fusion 9 won't load Cineform MOV files (but 8 will)

PostMon Oct 09, 2017 8:29 am

Fusion 9 seems to be broken when I try to load a Cineform MOV file, while Fusion 8 will happily load the same files (see attached screenshot).

Cineform_F9vsF8.JPG
screenshot of F9 failing while F8 succeeds...
Cineform_F9vsF8.JPG (290.37 KiB) Viewed 559 times


I tried with a few Cineform MOV files I created from a BMPCC Prorez file using Davinci V14, and one using Mpeg Streamclip, all loaded into Fusion 8 fine, but Fusion 9 won't touch them.
The console just says the Loader failed at frame whatever, nothing of use showing there.
The DNxHD file I created can be loaded into Fusion 9; but this leaves me with a load of existing projects which won't work unless I have Fusion 8 on the system as well, or transcode an absolute LOAD of files (which I'd rather avoid).

I'm trying this on an HP Z800, 88Gb RAM, 2 x GTX970, Windows 10 Professional.
Using Fusion 9.0.1 build 3 and Fusion 8.2.1 build 6. (all packaged used are the free versions)

Here's the links to the source files-

https://www.dropbox.com/s/j4u2cn2e9dteh ... t.mov?dl=0 - Fusion 9 won't open
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gklwi8g111pss ... t.mov?dl=0 - Fusion 9 won't open
https://www.dropbox.com/s/srw5lqize2el3 ... t.mov?dl=0 - Fusion 9 will open (ungraded)
All created with Davinci 14.0.1.008 Free version

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b09nnmiec84vk ... m.mov?dl=0 - Fusion 9 won't open
Created with MPEG Streamclip (Mac OSX)

Files between 50 & 150 odd Megs.


Does anyone else have the same issue or similar?


Cheers
Mark
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michael vorberg

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Re: BUG? Fusion 9 won't load Cineform MOV files (but 8 will)

PostMon Oct 09, 2017 7:52 pm

fusion 8 used the installed quicktime libaries to load quicktime containers, so all the codecs from quicktime can be read.

fusion 9 uses an own implentantion, without the need for quicktime installed, and can read only those formats

maybe it can be solved if you install ffmpeg, then fusion can use the ffmpeg libaries to read other files
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Mark Spink

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Re: BUG? Fusion 9 won't load Cineform MOV files (but 8 will)

PostTue Oct 10, 2017 12:21 am

michael vorberg wrote:fusion 8 used the installed quicktime libaries to load quicktime containers, so all the codecs from quicktime can be read.

fusion 9 uses an own implentantion, without the need for quicktime installed, and can read only those formats

maybe it can be solved if you install ffmpeg, then fusion can use the ffmpeg libaries to read other files


Thanks for the info Michael!

So basically Blackmagic have made the new version of Fusion so it is unable to load a video file created with Davinci, or a project created in Fusion 8!
Somewhat of an own-goal! (hope they don't mangle Davinci in a similar manner!)

It would appear that this 'update' has even blown out Blackmagic's own software codecs which I used to be able to use in Fusion 8...
Brilliant way of completely stuffing anyone with legacy projects made in Fusion 8!!!

The AVI implementation seems to be the complete opposite of Quicktime however, it offeres me anything I have installed by the look of it!

Is there any way to force Fusion to use the system's quicktime codecs (or FFMPEG as you suggest)?
I had a look in the Prefs and it would appear you are allowed to use the Cineform codec, but only for AVI files (at least it supports saving AVI files now!).


Cheers
Mark
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David_Cox

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Re: BUG? Fusion 9 won't load Cineform MOV files (but 8 will)

PostTue Oct 10, 2017 8:37 am

In fairness to BlackMagic, having to move from reliance on QuickTime was likely because Apple withdrew support for Quicktime on PC:

https://www.us-cert.gov/ncas/alerts/TA16-105A

Adobe have also had to re-write their Quicktime based areas.

On the up side, codecs like DnxHR seem to work much faster now in Fusion 9. But as you have found, there are likely to be ongoing issues picking up all the format variants that QuickTime historically supported.

I think Fusion 8 and Fusion 9 can both be installed together, so other than using the FFmpeg route to pick up a wide range of other formats, perhaps stick to Fusion 8 for your existing projects and move to F9 for your new ones?

DC
Showreels: vimeo.com/davidcoxtv
Website: www.davidcox.tv
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Mark Spink

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Re: BUG? Fusion 9 won't load Cineform MOV files (but 8 will)

PostTue Oct 10, 2017 11:07 am

David_Cox wrote:In fairness to BlackMagic, having to move from reliance on QuickTime was likely because Apple withdrew support for Quicktime on PC:

https://www.us-cert.gov/ncas/alerts/TA16-105A

Adobe have also had to re-write their Quicktime based areas.

On the up side, codecs like DnxHR seem to work much faster now in Fusion 9. But as you have found, there are likely to be ongoing issues picking up all the format variants that QuickTime historically supported.

I think Fusion 8 and Fusion 9 can both be installed together, so other than using the FFmpeg route to pick up a wide range of other formats, perhaps stick to Fusion 8 for your existing projects and move to F9 for your new ones?

DC


Thanks David.

I agree, it's the Quicktime / Windows lack of support equation in action, but with their cameras steadfastly using the MOV format (at least my Pocket still does) you'd think BMD would be a little bit more Quicktime friendly!

Can you let me know what the 'FFMpeg route' actually is please?
Is there a way to make Fusion 9 use FFMpeg internally, or is this just using FFMpeg to transcode files stand alone or with 'Another GUI' or some such?


Cheers
Mark
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David_Cox

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Re: BUG? Fusion 9 won't load Cineform MOV files (but 8 will)

PostTue Oct 10, 2017 11:12 am

Have a search on this forum about FFmpeg as there have been a number of dedicated threads over the last few weeks about using it.
DC
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Website: www.davidcox.tv
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Mark Spink

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Re: BUG? Fusion 9 won't load Cineform MOV files (but 8 will)

PostTue Oct 10, 2017 11:42 am

David_Cox wrote:Have a search on this forum about FFmpeg as there have been a number of dedicated threads over the last few weeks about using it.
DC


David, thanks again! I have thrown FFmpeg onto my C drive & as promised it can open .mkv files & suchlike, unfortunately it still won't touch Cineform as a codec...
Pity it's only the loader that can use it (FFmpeg)- as I can happily encode Prorez with FFmpeg already in Windows.

Hopefully the word 'GoPro' might hold some minuscule sway with BMD, and they write something which will allow Fusion to open them at some stage...


Cheers
Mark

Love your showreel BTW...
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David_Cox

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Re: BUG? Fusion 9 won't load Cineform MOV files (but 8 will)

PostTue Oct 10, 2017 11:47 am

Drop an email to support and if there isn't an immediate work around, they'll add it as a feature request. As you mentioned, GoPro might be the magic word :-)

Contact form is at the bottom if this page:
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/suppor ... and-fusion

DC
Showreels: vimeo.com/davidcoxtv
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Mark Spink

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Re: BUG? Fusion 9 won't load Cineform MOV files (but 8 will)

PostTue Oct 10, 2017 11:55 am

There already David, I have a lad out here in Aus called Warwick who I throw missives at, usually about Davinci as it happens (hence using the Cineform codec as Davinci used to stuff up DNxHD/HR)...

Cheers
Mark
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Adelson Munhoz

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Re: BUG? Fusion 9 won't load Cineform MOV files (but 8 will)

PostTue Oct 10, 2017 9:47 pm

There's a trick that I use to make FFMPEG open Quicktime files not supported in Fusion.

Try to change the extension of your file from .MOV to .MKV and see if Fusion opens it.
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Jith Kumar

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Re: BUG? Fusion 9 won't load Cineform MOV files (but 8 will)

PostTue Oct 10, 2017 10:50 pm

Mark Spink wrote:
David, thanks again! I have thrown FFmpeg onto my C drive & as promised it can open .mkv files & suchlike, unfortunately it still won't touch Cineform as a codec...
Pity it's only the loader that can use it (FFmpeg)- as I can happily encode Prorez with FFmpeg already in Windows.



Hi Mark,

Are you sure FFmpeg is installed correctly? I could load the Cinefom clips you linked just fine with FFmpeg and Fusion 9.0.1 build3.

Cineform_screen.png
Cineform_screen.png (783.4 KiB) Viewed 423 times
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Mark Spink

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Re: BUG? Fusion 9 won't load Cineform MOV files (but 8 will)

PostTue Oct 10, 2017 11:33 pm

Jith Kumar wrote:Are you sure FFmpeg is installed correctly? I could load the Cinefom clips you linked just fine with FFmpeg and Fusion 9.0.1 build3.


Hello Jith

I thought I had it installed properly (last night, not initially), and thinking about it I can encode Cineform files perfectly OK with FFmpeg in 'AnotherGUI' so it should read them.
I'll have another crack & try on my laptop as well...

Time Passes...

Tried it on my laptop; worked straight away... Tried it on my Z800 and now it works there (odd, must have wanted a re-boot or something!).
Thanks Everyone!

More time passes...

Fusion is still unhappy with some old flows! I tried to change the loader of a Cineform MOV in some Fusion 8 created flows: Fusion 9 crashes as soon as you look at seemingly any part of the flow apart from the new loader.
I've loaded other flows created in Fusion 8 fine without any crashes so this is odd!
Interestingly, if I load the flow back into F8 after changing the loader in F9, it works fine...

I've isolated a seemingly innocuous bit of a flow, nothing to do with loading a cineform file, and it causes F9 to crash every time you look at the CC fed by the image (the image displays OK however).
Does anyone get similar results? Here's the files-

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cp8xcqdm31pdc ... e.zip?dl=0

Just point the loader at the PNG and post multiply by alpha.

In fact I've gone even more basic- made a flow in F8 with a (cineform mov) loader into a CC node, opened it in F9 - would not display the loader or the CC node (didn't crash)
Then I replaced the loader in F9 and it loaded the cineform MOV OK- piped this into the existing CC node from the F8 project and tried to view it- instant crash.
Got the same results with a loader looking at a PNG file created in F8 (although F9 loaded this OK and displayed the loader without needing to replace it).

F8Comp.zip
(2.05 KiB) Downloaded 6 times


Anyone get similar results? Or just create a simple comp in F8 (loader into a CC node), save it & load it into F9 and see if it crashes too.


Cheers!
Mark
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michael vorberg

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Re: BUG? Fusion 9 won't load Cineform MOV files (but 8 will)

PostWed Oct 11, 2017 6:19 am

The crashing CC is very often reported here, there is a problem with the OpenCL acceleration in it or even with the new OpenCL settings at all.
First try: delete your preferences file and restart fusion
Second : try the OpenCL settings in preferences (fusion gui) and set it to disable or the CPU
If fusion crashes in the preferences you need more manuall work to reset it. There are many threads here about this
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Mark Spink

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Re: BUG? Fusion 9 won't load Cineform MOV files (but 8 will)

PostWed Oct 11, 2017 10:59 pm

Thanks Michael

Tried a new flow with a CC in F9 and it dies as soon as you adjust the CC at all...


Cheers
Mark
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Mark Spink

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Re: BUG? Fusion 9 won't load Cineform MOV files (but 8 will)

PostWed Oct 11, 2017 11:55 pm

I think I just forced Fusion to create new preferences, by renaming the Fusion folder as follows-

c:/users/<username>/AppData/Roaming/Blackmagic Design/Fusion

renamed to

c:/users/<username>/AppData/Roaming/Blackmagic Design/Fusion_Old

When I re-started Fusion it created a new ‘Fusion’ folder as it started (seen in the File Explorer window), I then tried to get into the Open CL tab in preferences: instant crash same as before…
And this is on both my machines, same behaviour.
Is this the correct way to delete Fusions preferences?

Machines are as follows-

Z800
88 Gigs RAM
Windows 10 pro v 1703 build 15063.632
GPU: Nvidia GTX970 (x2) driver v 382.33

Macbook Pro (2013 retina 15")
16 Gigs RAM
Windows 10 home v 1703 build 15063.674
Nvidia GT750M driver v 382.05




Cheers
Mark
Last edited by Mark Spink on Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Mark Spink

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Re: BUG? Fusion 9 won't load Cineform MOV files (but 8 will)

PostThu Oct 12, 2017 12:35 am

Fixed it!

I installed Nvidia v 387.92 drivers on the Z800 and everything started working OK!
I even deleted the new 'Fusion' folder in c:/users/<username>/AppData/Roaming/Blackmagic Design/ and renamed the _old one back to Fusion and it worked with Fusion's old prefs fine too.

I'm waiting for the MacbookPro to update the Nvidia drivers to see if that's fixed as well...

It appears to be the same story; Nvidia v 387.92 drivers fixed the issue on the laptop as well.

Thanks for everyone's help & suggestions!

Cheers!
Mark
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michael vorberg

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Re: BUG? Fusion 9 won't load Cineform MOV files (but 8 will)

PostThu Oct 12, 2017 7:37 am

The crash in the preferences and of the color correct are OpenCL related.
If fusion has a problem to find a proper OpenCL device it will crash
So you can disable the OpenCL settings only by editing the preferences manually with a text editor
There is als a script here in the forum which will set all nodes to disable OpenCL. This should prevent from the color correct crash

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