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Fusion 10 is coming or not ?

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Kel Philm

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Re: Fusion 10 is coming or not ?

PostTue Aug 28, 2018 12:31 am

I love Fusion and BM, I have a lot of their gear from UMP cameras to Color Panels, they have really made a big difference to the way I can work with fantastic tools at great prices.

But it just feels like Fusion 9 Standalone slept with one of the board members wives and they are slowly castrating him (or her :) ) because of that.
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Theodor Groeneboom

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Re: Fusion 10 is coming or not ?

PostTue Aug 28, 2018 7:42 am

Kays Alatrakchi wrote:
I really don't understand why the everything-under-one-app is a bad thing. If you don't like the other components, simply ignore them and treat Resolve 15 the same way that you would treat Fusion — go in, get what you need done, and get out. There is a general sense that more functionality = code bloat, but that is not necessarily true. For instance, color grading in Resolve was not negatively impacted the moment that the other modules were added.


Fusion in Resolve has a much larger memory footprint, considerably slower and worst of all has much stricter hardware requirements than Fusion standalone. I cannot run Resolve on hardware I CAN run fusion on. This includes render nodes.

Also, I cannot do all the things I can do in Fusion, please see my lengthy response in the previous page.

This has severely impacted the usefulness of Fusion in Resolve. This is bloat from a Fusion user POV.

Kays Alatrakchi wrote:I find far too many veterans in the industry to be very rigid in their ways, and looking at change always in a negative light. This is true for the hardcore users in many apps out there. I really don't understand the resistance to change, or the reluctance to realize that the industry and workflow are in constant state of evolution.


Theres no reluctance to change from the industry, in fact a lot of the tools you use today came from r&d and production tools. This includes Nuke and Fusion, Naiad, Mudbox etc etc. However, since you stated that you're not a compositor I can understand how it may seem like it.

Major feature films employ literally hundreds of VFX artists to solve the work, it all has to be coordinated, planned, produced and be tailored to the specific needs of the film. This requires specialists (roto
artists, compers, coordinators, supervisors, pipeline TDs etc) and specialists tools (like Nuke, Fusion, Houdini etc) to solve very bespoke problems. There isn't such a thing as "all under one roof". Hence the need for surgical tools, and a stable and predictable environment to work in. (Tools can be beta, but they have to be predictable in their usage)

Film VFX is a custom build pr show, sequence and even shot. It requires flexibility and special-purpose tools, some of which can be abstracted to fit a bigger picture sure. But in general its not just about just the features, its about how flexible a tool is to fit this special and fluid workflow. Lets say a new Renderer comes along thats super fast, does almost everything we need and reduces our rendering time from 20min pr frame to 1 second, but it doesn't support any pipelining/scripting/or some other hook that VFX REQUIRE, then the tool is practically useless. Not because its not a good tool, but because it doesn't fit the needs at a fundamental level.

This is Resolve (right now) due to be reasons I mentioned in the previous page.

I hope this sheds some light on the subject for you. Happy to give more production examples if you need.
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JP Docherty

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Re: Fusion 10 is coming or not ?

PostTue Aug 28, 2018 12:58 pm

Theodors' detailed responses on the this thread are excellent and bang on the money as far as VFX professionals are concerned. And he also has extensive experience using the other comp application at a very high level in one of the largest VFX houses in the world.

Let's hope someone at BM (ideally Grant Petty) listens. Looking less and likely, though, I fear.

The ongoing support for the stand alone issue was previously debated months ago back in this thread

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=69474&p=403505#p403505

and in that thread Kays Alatrakchi took pretty much the same position and got a similar response, including one from me, copied below. And while I'm sure that his opinions are well meant they really don't work for higher end VFX work.

It should be noted that in the same thread BM officially responded to concern over this issue in February 2018 -
-------------------------
Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:36 am
Hey all,

Thanks for your feedback guys.

Be assured we are reading the forums and we can understand there is a little frustration here as we haven’t really commented. That’s primarily because we have some positive news coming.

Please bear with us as we have details to iron out.
Joshua Helling

Director of World Wide Support
Blackmagic Design Inc.
---------------------------
- and as far as I know nothing has been said since then, six months ago.

As regards Kays comments as to why the everything-under-one-app is a bad thing, I reprint my response from last April which, although less specific than Theodors, still does I think apply.

--------------------------
Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:52 am
Just to throw in my 2 cents on behalf of users and to add to the very good points raised by the software people here - over the last three decades I have seen many attempts to combine various media disciplines into one "uber app" that handles editing, vfx, grading, sound etc. The Softimage studio effort comes to mind, also the Autodesk attempt, now the Foundry seems to be having a go. It seems to be something that software company management usually arrives at after a period developing and supporting separate applications.

Speaking as someone who uses some of these apps to make a living (as opposed to selling these apps to make a living) I've seen that there is always one major problem.

The various disciplines involved are extremely specialised, albeit with some crossover. A feature film editor might use Fusion (or AE or whatever) to rough out temps for his edit, but the real shots will be done by a VFX artist. A VFX artist might be capable of driving an editing package - Lightworks, Premiere, Resolve (in my case) or whatever - but he's not very likely to get a job editing a feature film. And neither of them is going to be doing the final audio mix. Etc.

As such these all-in-one uber apps tend to usually end up being used by hobbyists or very small shops doing perhaps worthy but low budget projects, and eventually they all seem to end up being discontinued.

High end pros want and need their tools to be optimised for their own discipline. Implying that shoe horning another disciplines' tool set into one package somehow turns an Editor user into a top flight VFX designer or vice versa shows a somewhat warped (and to be honest slightly insulting, even if well meant) view of the industry. Productions don't hire editing systems - in most cases they couldn't care less what software or hardware is used. They hire the Editor, or the VFX Supervisor, or the Dubbing mixer or whatever, on the basis of their creative skills. And these artists need tools that help them best utilize their particular specialist skill set.

So - admittedly in reference to larger scale production - a reduced feature set version of Fusion in Resolve would be great for temps, rough concept work and other such things and would probably be more used by editorial departments than anyone else. But if that draws resources away from maintaining (and debugging!) the stand alone software then the stand alone will be in big trouble in the marketplace. And it's hard to see how this wouldn't happen.
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Kel Philm

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Re: Fusion 10 is coming or not ?

PostTue Aug 28, 2018 9:30 pm

Be assured we are reading the forums and we can understand there is a little frustration here as we haven’t really commented. That’s primarily because we have some positive news coming.


I was looking for that post! Unfortunately I think the positive news was Fusions integration into Resolve which as already stated is great for Resolve users but delivers nothing for VFX artists, hence the concern from the community that BM feels this is the future for Fusion users. It is so frustrating as all this speculation could quite easily be put to rest either way with a few words from BM.

So Joshua if you have your ears on can you help us out here? One blink means Fusion 10 is on the way, 2507 blinks at exactly 2 mins apart for its all over ...
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Thomas Martin

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Re: Fusion 10 is coming or not ?

PostWed Aug 29, 2018 7:11 am

Kel Philm wrote:
It is so frustrating as all this speculation could quite easily be put to rest either way with a few words from BM...


Absolutely, but, on the other hand, I do not understand why nobody from the user side who came in touch with the BM people, for instance during Siggraph, could come up with any piece of information.
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Sander de Regt

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Re: Fusion 10 is coming or not ?

PostWed Aug 29, 2018 7:13 am

If you're a user and you ask them and they don't give you an answer, then you can't come up with this info, can you?
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Thomas Martin

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Re: Fusion 10 is coming or not ?

PostWed Aug 29, 2018 7:32 am

Sander de Regt wrote:If you're a user and you ask them and they don't give you an answer, then you can't come up with this info, can you?

If you knew my wife you would think differently :D
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Skye Williamson

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Re: Fusion 10 is coming or not ?

PostWed Aug 29, 2018 7:34 am

Thomas Martin wrote:
Kel Philm wrote:
It is so frustrating as all this speculation could quite easily be put to rest either way with a few words from BM...


Absolutely, but, on the other hand, I do not understand why nobody from the user side who came in touch with the BM people, for instance during Siggraph, could come up with any piece of information.


The BM rep (though an industry person and not an employee) at Siggraph who demoed Fusion inside of Resolve for me had no idea, and wasn't really aware of all the differences between standalone and what was missing in the Resolve tab. I'm not sure anyone at that booth would've known the product roadmap.
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Kel Philm

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Re: Fusion 10 is coming or not ?

PostTue Sep 04, 2018 9:18 am

Contacted my local BM support rep for Fusion to see if there was any insight into Fusion stand alone.

He was unable to give me any release information but was able to inform me that:

'Blackmagic have said that the Stand Alone versions of Fusion is still being developed and that they do not have any plans in the foreseeable future to discontinue this.'
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Salvo Triolo

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Re: Fusion 10 is coming or not ?

PostWed Sep 12, 2018 2:48 pm

Who will benefits from this silenting strategy?
Users not, bmd not...so?
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Marc Gasser

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Re: Fusion 10 is coming or not ?

PostThu Sep 13, 2018 8:09 am

At least a 9.0.x update which supports the Davinci Resolve Licence key also for Fusion would be fantastic.

Note:
I am on Linux, Fusion in Resolve is a nightmare (stability and usability wise...)
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Tom_VR

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Re: Fusion 10 is coming or not ?

PostThu Sep 20, 2018 4:37 am

Going from nuke to fusion was like stepping out of a soulless mega factory into a burning train wreck.
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Abdul Majeed

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Re: Fusion 10 is coming or not ?

PostThu Sep 20, 2018 12:03 pm

Cant decide should I move to Nuke or stay and wait for what happens with Fusion. :(
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Bryan Ray

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Re: Fusion 10 is coming or not ?

PostThu Sep 20, 2018 3:22 pm

Tom_VR wrote:Going from nuke to fusion was like stepping out of a soulless mega factory into a burning train wreck.


:lol: I'd watch that movie!
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RCModelReviews

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Re: Fusion 10 is coming or not ?

PostThu Sep 20, 2018 6:06 pm

Bryan Ray wrote:
Tom_VR wrote:Going from nuke to fusion was like stepping out of a soulless mega factory into a burning train wreck.


:lol: I'd watch that movie!

Yeah, it'd be worth the ticket price just for the VFX :-)
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Ian Duncan

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Re: Fusion 10 is coming or not ?

PostFri Sep 21, 2018 4:26 pm

I share a lot of the same thoughts and issues as those in the thread above.

One question is where do really connect with Blackmagic to voice these concerns, make suggestions and understand the pipeline they are using/proposing. I see only one or two Blackmagic people around here.

We are a small but growing post house that wants to use a node based compositor but doesn't care for the "soulless mega factory" and really likes the cost of Fusion and/or Fusion Resolve. To be honest moving away from paying for a number of licenses with Adobe for creative cloud every month we can buy several Fusion dongles.

If any Blackmagic folks are listening...

We operate a shared sQL database on a mostly windows network, with mostly windows machines (i have tried to implement linux, not even close to ready for prime time imo). We have graded for years using Resolve. Having a great editor and powerful compositor seems like a win for us as a small business and on two small projects we have dived into using all these elements. Resolve from beginning to end.

Both projects have quite frankly been DISASTROUS. In both cases the projects themselves became corrupted. No amount of different machines or converting or restoring seemed to bring it back. We simply lost work. Here's the kicker on the most recent project. In collaborative mode AUTO SAVE A BACKUP CEASES TO FUNCTION. We learnned this the hard way when i had to roll a database back to the previous day and EVERYBODY lost their work. My team has switched back to using Fusion (which has really gotten quite good and stable, for us) and just using link or rendering and laying in sequences.

When your project wont open and you know this wasn't happening before you started using Fusion in the timeline, its very frustrating. No amount of submitting of crash dumps seems to alert anyone. And this brings me back to the access to Blackmagic. You don't even get a "thanks for taking the time to help us improve our software", from a real person and there seems to be very little interest or money budgeted for connecting with users. I get that BM is a hardware company. We own BM hardware. We would probly own a lot more if we felt like there was any other employees besides Peter Chamberlain and that CEO guy that writes us a letter at the start of every new manual for us to connect with.

I know that we re genuinely looking to move away from Adobe and have no interest in The Foundry and their pricing. It's a shame that Natron never caught on. If only they could have somehow added it into Blender.

Anyway we would be very interested in working with Blackmagic to make their software better. I have called them once on the phone with help regarding a corrupted database and the service was quite frankly excellent. I have also had very bad experiences with the Cimema cameras and service the put we way off the hardware. We own a BMPCC and have purchased several other cameras and ATEMS in the past so i would consider us a small business user.

For sure you have to find a better way to incorporate the fusion software into Resolve if that is the plan. Simply allowing you to save out the individual clips as fusion projects would be a big step. So if a project goes tits up you can still access all the VFX you have done, and pray you didn't color it yet. We have been using this work flow only for a short time and already we see how a separate version of Fusion is absolutely key fo you need to delivery in time critical situations.

Cheers.
Cheers,

Ian


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RCModelReviews

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Re: Fusion 10 is coming or not ?

PostFri Sep 21, 2018 8:20 pm

Ian, I find it incredibly interesting that there seems to be such a huge divide between the DR15 community that are having no (significant) problems and the community that is struggling with the bugs and losing work as a result.

I'd love to know why it is that some are problem-free and others are plagued with problems.

It is clear that a great deal of the issues in DR15 seem to be centered on Fusion and Fairlight so perhaps those who are having "no real problems" are the ones who simply use DR15 for cutting/splicing and color grading -- without actually spending much (if any) time in Fusion and/or Fairlight.

Meanwhile, as you can see from my .sig, I have opted to step back from the bleeding edge and find it a very productive, reliable place to be. Fusion studio stand-alone does a great job (but still just "disappears" from my screen and the process list far too often when I'm using the trackers) and DR14 is super-solid.

I would hate to think that BMD might drop Fusion as a stand-alone product and instead, focus on adding new features to Fusion in DR. If asked, I suspect that 99% of Fusion users would say "we don't want *new* bells and whistles, we just want the existing ones to work -- which they don't always do with the integrated version in DR15.
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Ian Duncan

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Re: Fusion 10 is coming or not ?

PostFri Sep 21, 2018 8:48 pm

RCModelReviews wrote:Ian, I find it incredibly interesting that there seems to be such a huge divide between the DR15 community that are having no (significant) problems and the community that is struggling with the bugs and losing work as a result.

I'd love to know why it is that some are problem-free and others are plagued with problems.

It is clear that a great deal of the issues in DR15 seem to be centered on Fusion and Fairlight so perhaps those who are having "no real problems" are the ones who simply use DR15 for cutting/splicing and color grading -- without actually spending much (if any) time in Fusion and/or Fairlight.

Meanwhile, as you can see from my .sig, I have opted to step back from the bleeding edge and find it a very productive, reliable place to be. Fusion studio stand-alone does a great job (but still just "disappears" from my screen and the process list far too often when I'm using the trackers) and DR14 is super-solid.

I would hate to think that BMD might drop Fusion as a stand-alone product and instead, focus on adding new features to Fusion in DR. If asked, I suspect that 99% of Fusion users would say "we don't want *new* bells and whistles, we just want the existing ones to work -- which they don't always do with the integrated version in DR15.


I agree with you for sure.

I have colored a couple of seasons of a tv show this year and i would say for the most part i had no issues in 14 or 15. Other than your typical crashes. But for sure in 15, when i started adding fusion comps things started to really break down. Like you said issues around Fusion and Fairlight. Until there is more adoption of them both its hard to roll out the kinks. I would imagine that Fusion and Fairlight have pretty minimal industry penetration.

I also didn't mention that Fusion and Fusion/Resolve don't seem cross compatible at all. At least in the comps we tried to import export between the programs it just didn't really work.

If you are going to build it in resolve then it should just be fusion in resolve and not a hybrid. If they eventually roll the the complete full Fusion into resolve then it better be stable and you better be able to save out your comps as separate fusion files or they are going to alienate 95% of fusion users. Maybe they will pick up the Natron cause. :)

I think for the most part crossing the programs creates new workflows and is an attempt to push things forward. I get that fixing existing software is important but you also need to compete in a very competitive market. Without the fusion integration we would probably not have used Resolve beyond grading, but now we are seriously looking at doing the next show in resolve instead of just finishing. And therefor we picked up some new fusion dongles and now we are probably more in the BM eco system than we otherwise would have been. The devs don't have it easy.

What platforms, storage, systems are you using for your projects?
Cheers,

Ian


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Rajiv Mudgal

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Re: Fusion 10 is coming or not ?

PostWed Nov 21, 2018 1:02 pm

I was told that fusion will be fully implemented in resolve 16.
I think there is a lot of rewrite happening under the hood right now and just like there now is a single audio engine in resolve 15 for both the edit and fairlight page. one may expect that there will be a single engine cutting across Edit, color, Fusion.
I think that's where things seems to be heading and if so Fusion 10 may never see the day because by 16 it would be a very different beast.
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Miltos Pilalitos

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Re: Fusion 10 is coming or not ?

PostWed Nov 21, 2018 3:14 pm

Rajiv Mudgal wrote:I was told that fusion will be fully implemented in resolve 16.


Don't hold your breath. It ain't happening. ;)

If Fusion in Resolve will ever be 100% of what standalone Fusion is, it would mean MAJOR software design changes for Resolve. Something entirely unrealistic to happen before Resolve 18 at least.

It would be easier to implement Resolve into a Fusion node than implementing Fusion into a Resolve tab.
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Chad Capeland

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Re: Fusion 10 is coming or not ?

PostWed Nov 21, 2018 4:58 pm

Rajiv Mudgal wrote:one may expect that there will be a single engine cutting across Edit, color, Fusion.


So... Fusion. Fusion's capabilities are a superset of Resolve's.
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Srecko Micic

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Re: Fusion 10 is coming or not ?

PostMon Dec 03, 2018 5:12 pm

Miltos Pilalitos wrote:
Rajiv Mudgal wrote:I was told that fusion will be fully implemented in resolve 16.


Don't hold your breath. It ain't happening. ;)

If Fusion in Resolve will ever be 100% of what standalone Fusion is, it would mean MAJOR software design changes for Resolve. Something entirely unrealistic to happen before Resolve 18 at least.

It would be easier to implement Resolve into a Fusion node than implementing Fusion into a Resolve tab.

I agree on this. I just wanted to do my comp in Resolve, have bunch of shots in EXR, and as soon as I want to access files in Media pool Resolve immediately crash.. How is that going to replace Fusion I wonder? BTW end up doing everything in Fusion 9.
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Dallas Lammiman

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Re: Fusion 10 is coming or not ?

PostWed Dec 05, 2018 8:02 pm

Fusion 9 Studio is simply is not working for me in Mac OS Mojave, and wile I am able to do basic composites in Davinci, it is incredibly inefficient and take way longer to render out than Fusion Studio did. It feels really weird that I am forced to go back to doing the majority of my compositing in Motion 5 again. At least Apple is still updating it (because this all feels like losing Shake all over again)

Edit: I feel so dumb, I got Fusion working just fine in Mojave after contacting tech support. Simple fix. :roll:
Last edited by Dallas Lammiman on Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Peter Cordes

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Re: Fusion 10 is coming or not ?

PostThu Dec 06, 2018 2:13 pm

IMHO it's the best way, to have a "small" Fusion inside of Resolve and also a "big" Fusion as standalone.
So small and easier work can be done "ad hoc" in resolve.
Bigger work can be done in Fusion standalone. Fusion standalone then is able to use the complete maschine-resources and also can use network render nodes.

Bigger Fusion comps often take a longer time to render.
For those bigger comps it is IMHO absolute unusable that resolve always has to render the comp, when it only needs to render the timeline.

Please BMD ... keep Fusion standalone alive!

Thanks
Peter
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Dustin Bowser

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Re: Fusion 10 is coming or not ?

PostTue Dec 11, 2018 12:08 pm

I agree with the above.

I think the best answer for all worlds is Fusion in Resolve and also a Fusion standalone app that talk brilliantly with each other.

This isn't a new idea either. Look at Autodesk Flame and Flare. Flame is Reaolve with the timeline and all the finishing capabilities and Flare is Fusion standalone with the VFX environment and none of the other unnecessary things for a shot based VFX Compositor.

In my opinion this is the ideal marriage of all we're discussing. Use the integration of Fusion into Resolve and all the updating and R&D that's creating for Fusion to have it running smoothly in Resolve and then release a sexy updated version of Standalone Fusion that flies under the same Pipeline banner.

I really hope this is the end game because I love Fusion. I came from After Effects and I have no desire to go back but I never see myself compositing a giant VFX shot in Resolve. I would be forced to move to Nuke and that would make me sad. I'm a professional and need the tools to work to do the job now. I can't pay my bills with ideas of what the future will be like. But I do pay my bills with fusion and would be excited about the opportunity to continue to do so.

And I'm also an editor and sound designer so I LOVE Fusion in Resolve btw. I'm so happy they did that. It's the app I always wished Adobe would have made. But I hope that fusion standalone isn't forgotten because it has its own specialized and very important uses.
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onelight

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Re: Fusion 10 is coming or not ?

PostWed Dec 12, 2018 6:09 am

Ditto. Agreed with Dustin's comments.

I've found that Fusion has an excellent array of features and functions for doing VFX work.
Looking forward to seeing what transpires especially for the update for Fusion standalone in addition to Fusion in Resolve.

It would also be great to hear confirmation on a roadmap for Fusion 10 and beyond. Even a rough outline would be great.
To help put everyone at ease, myself included but especially all those in the VFX community & production houses who've invested their time and resource into Fusion. Without their valuable input, help and tutorials I wouldn't be here. And the alternatives are not very enticing and few & far between.

Cheers
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