UpDownCross mini converter issues

Hi,

We currently have the mini converter updowncross for testing at our station. We've connected it to a Avid Mojo DX and a Ikegami HD monitor. We then play a good studio quality SD SDI signal to the converter and view the HD output on the Ikegami.

What we see is that the picture looks like it has not the correct field order, but then not fully incorrect. The picture does not look stable and quiet. And when there is a pan, the picture judders and is not sharp as the original picture is. So, the conversion from SD to HD makes the picture looks worse and for us this is not acceptable.

Is this behavior normal for this converter? Or is there something we can do like a firmware upgrade?
We use IMX 30 mbps, PAL en we convert it to HD 1080. Dipswitches 1,2,3,7 and 8 are on.

Please advise.
Kind regards,

Renzo Geelhoed
Omroep Zeeland

One question if you didn't solved it by your own:

to what kind of HD to convert? I or P and what framerate do you use?

Is the Ikegami Monitor an LCD? Do you know that it can handle interlaced material the correct way?
Not all LCD do.

Maybe you don't have only one problem? I don't used this miniconverter, so i don't know about it.....
But I have some experience with Monitors....


Regards Nils

the format of the video in the timeline shouldn't make a difference - that is, once it's SDI on the output of the Avid, it's SDI.

Does the signal coming out of the Avid, plugged directly into an interlaced SD monitor, without the UDC in the signal path, look correct? That would rule out the Avid as the problem.

-perry

One question if you didn't solved it by your own:

to what kind of HD to convert? I or P and what framerate do you use?

Is the Ikegami Monitor an LCD? Do you know that it can handle interlaced material the correct way?
Not all LCD do.

Maybe you don't have only one problem? I don't used this miniconverter, so i don't know about it.....
But I have some experience with Monitors....


Regards Nils

Hi Nils,

You cannot setup much on the converter, it's just 720 or 1080. On the monitor I see that it is 1080/50i, and that's what it should be. The monitor is an professional Ikegami LCD, and shows perfectly if you have the fields in the incorrect order, and it handles any material in the correct way. We also connected the converter directly on the output of a Sony PDW-1500 and our Omneon playout system. While the SD clips play perfectly smooth and have a studio quality picture, the output of the converter shows a bit juddery picture and with a pan the whole picture looks terrible.

Then we changed the Blackmagic for a Axon converter and that showed the quality that we wanted. Perfectly smooth and a pan shows just like the original SD file, but then in HD. We had to look at the osd of the Ikegami to see that is was HD. With the Blackmagic you could instantly see the poorly upscaled picture.

We also tried an Aja converter, which was almost as good as the Axon.

Funny that both of you guys try to find the cause of the bad HD picture outside of the Blackmagic converter, and not the converter itself. While thát is just the case with this little box. The quality is just not good enough.

Kind regards,

Renzo

the format of the video in the timeline shouldn't make a difference - that is, once it's SDI on the output of the Avid, it's SDI.

Does the signal coming out of the Avid, plugged directly into an interlaced SD monitor, without the UDC in the signal path, look correct? That would rule out the Avid as the problem.

-perry

Hi Perry,

As you can see in my comment to Nils that the original picture was and is perfect. We made certain that is was perfect, how can you test a converter when you don't know what and how it's getting in?

The Avid was not the problem, it's the converter. It's cheap, but that's all that it is.

Thanks, both of you for your comments, but the converter is on it's way back to the reseller.

Kind regards,

Renzo

Thanks, both of you for your comments, but the converter is on it's way back to the reseller.

Hi Renzo,

I understand where you're coming from, as we're having different problems with this converter (see my other thread in this forum).

But I'm wondering if there's something else at play here - is it possible that you have the DIP switches set incorrectly on the box? The reason I ask is that when we first got ours, there was a little confusion about the settings, because the DIP switch unit is basically upside down, compared to the printed diagram on the back. That is, if you're holding the unit with the DIP switch facing you and the diagram facing up, the switch settings are actually opposite what the diagram shows (if you're not paying careful attention to the numbers of the switches). This is *really* dumb design if you ask me. you should be able to hold the thing in your hands, look at a diagram and match up the switches, without having to rotate it first.

Because you say it looks incorrect some of the time but not all, I wonder if it's doing something other than what you're expecting it to do, based on these switch settings.

Then again, it could just be broken. I don't think it's a problem with the unit's design - at least, we haven't seen the problem you're talking about (though we have other issues with it).

-perry

[Hersh Burston]

Hi Perry,

When you are holding the converter with the switches facing you, the diagram and the switches match exactly. The only thing odd is that the numbers printed on the switch itself are now upside down but the position and numbering is consistent with the screen printing on the unit. Unfortunately this is the way the switch assembly is manufactured.

We are investigating the other issues.


Regards,

Hersh Burston
Senior Product Manager
Blackmagic Design

Hi all,

I didn't want to say that the rest of the equipment is faulty, and they holy converter is right. I have seen many problems with blackmagic products, but we are living in a real world, things a little more complex as we like...
and for the price the quality is pretty good for me.
So that wasn't my point, but i have seen many problems with monitoring. we took a look on many models from different manufacturers and 1080i50 with a moving zoneplate was sometimes, let me call it interesting?
And i never had a UpDownCross in my fingers, seems to be that the terranex is the better product....


regards Nils

Thanks, both of you for your comments, but the converter is on it's way back to the reseller.

Hi Renzo,

I understand where you're coming from, as we're having different problems with this converter (see my other thread in this forum).

But I'm wondering if there's something else at play here - is it possible that you have the DIP switches set incorrectly on the box? The reason I ask is that when we first got ours, there was a little confusion about the settings, because the DIP switch unit is basically upside down, compared to the printed diagram on the back. That is, if you're holding the unit with the DIP switch facing you and the diagram facing up, the switch settings are actually opposite what the diagram shows (if you're not paying careful attention to the numbers of the switches). This is *really* dumb design if you ask me. you should be able to hold the thing in your hands, look at a diagram and match up the switches, without having to rotate it first.

Because you say it looks incorrect some of the time but not all, I wonder if it's doing something other than what you're expecting it to do, based on these switch settings.

Then again, it could just be broken. I don't think it's a problem with the unit's design - at least, we haven't seen the problem you're talking about (though we have other issues with it).

-perry

Hi Perry,

I tried all (there are not many) the dip switch settings, but that did not help. Also installed the software but you cannot change or see any settings.
I did not say that it looks incorrect some of the time, I said that it kind of looks like the field order is wrong, but not completely wrong. It's hard to write down what exactly we see. And what we see is not good.

Kind regards,

Renzo

Hi all,

I didn't want to say that the rest of the equipment is faulty, and they holy converter is right. I have seen many problems with blackmagic products, but we are living in a real world, things a little more complex as we like...
and for the price the quality is pretty good for me.
So that wasn't my point, but i have seen many problems with monitoring. we took a look on many models from different manufacturers and 1080i50 with a moving zoneplate was sometimes, let me call it interesting?
And i never had a UpDownCross in my fingers, seems to be that the terranex is the better product....


regards Nils

Hi Nils,
I know that you're not saying that the rest of the equipment is faulty, I just find it interesting that none of you guys said, hé, it's cheap so do not expect broadcast quality off it. But I think that's the case here. It seems the procerssor of the converter is to slow to keep the picture quality up to broadcast levels.
I don't know the Terranex products, but Axon is top, and the Aja does also do a good job. Costs twice as much, the Axon triple. Maybe it is to cheap?

Kind regards,

Renzo

Hi Renzo,

Only up or down converting should not be a problem, as you can do on all cards that I now.
All consumer TV's do and the math behind is not so complicated....
So you do more than scaling??
Yes if you do only scaling, than I expected a little more than jitter and poor quality.
So maybe this was my fault. I never expected good quality form framerateconversion, from a box thats about 500 Euros. For testing we tried different software (after effects, compressor....) and get good result when you convert from more to less frames. From less to more was not good.

But good to know not to use it as an upscaler too.

regards Nils