Trying to calibrate GUI Viewer

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Cristian Buru

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Trying to calibrate GUI Viewer

PostThu Apr 17, 2014 8:56 am

Hello,

I'm trying to get comments/feedback on the following problem I have -

My setup is:

-PC w/ Windows 8 Pro, 32Gb RAM, i7-3770K, GeForce GTX580 3Gb
-Dell U2711 widegamut monitor
-Xrite I1 Display Pro Colorimeter
-ArgyllCMS 1.6.3
-DispCalGui 1.7.5.7
-Resolve Lite 10.1.4

Goal:

Achieve a WYSIWYG representation in Rec709 in the Viewer from the GUI of Resolve.
I KNOW that normally you should grade on a broadcast monitor feeded from an SDI/HDMI/whatever, but until i'll get there (...) I want to have a reference as close as it can be possible in the GUI. A sort of "poor's man ref monitor".

From my understanding this is technically possible because a few versions ago Resolve implemented a 3D Color Viewer Lookup Table specifically designed to address the problem of calibrating the viewer (page 89 in manual).
Also my monitor can encompass the full Rec709 space.

From parsing the net I see that the most used setups are LightSpace or Calman with a probe. Unfortunately and to my disappointment none of these two have a workflow for my goal. They both seem to concentrate only on the output monitor and dont care about the gui viewer.
Also I didn't find a step by step guide to accomplish this which amazed me because it's quite an important feature.



So I tried to put together a workflow:

1. First I understand I have to calibrate the monitor to Rec709 standards. Now, this standards seem to vary in the tons of materials I read on the internet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rec._709
http://www.negativespaces.com/blog/2013 ... gamma.html
http://www.poynton.com/notes/PU-PR-IS/P ... -PR-IS.pdf

White point is clear, everbody agrees.
The luminance value most commonly used was 100cd/m2, with values from 80 to 120 being mentioned.
Black level I think the lowest is the best (?).
I choosed gammma 2.2 as being the most used, but I have seen values between 2.2 and 2.6 mentioned. Also I've seen in the DispcalGui also mentioned under tone curves Rec. 709 and Rec. 1886. Maybe somebody can shed some light about these two.


So I did a factory reset on my monitor, choosed custom color as preset mode and went on with the calibration.
I choosed the following in dispcalgui:

White Point: D6500
White Level (Luminance): 100 cd/m2
Black Level: As measured
Tone Curve: Gamma 2.2
profile type: curves + matrix
testchart file: very large testchart for LUT profiles, optimized for gamma 2.2 with rec709 primaries (D65).

After 45 min I ended up with an icc profile which i set to be automatically loaded at startup.


2. Creating the 3D Lut.

Go to DispcalGui -> Tools -> Create 3D Lut

Source profile: Rec709 Gamma 2.2
Target profile: the profile we just created
Apply calibration (vcgt): UNCHECKED - we dont want the calibration to be applied twice.
Rendering intent: Relative colorimetric as widegamut is bigger then rec709
3D Lut file format: IRIDAS cube
3D Lut size: 32 x 32 x 32 (?)


Does anybody have any suggestions? Is it something I'm doing wrong ?

Al Powell

Re: Trying to calibrate GUI Viewer

PostThu Apr 17, 2014 1:14 pm

Sounds like a total fiasco. Sure would be nice if the folks over at Resolve would focus on making the GUI display accurate (you know, the place where most of work from) rather than, say, editing. If you detect a note of cynicism, I spent a month where you are and never even got close.

The reason it's so hard is because they want you to buy a breakout device. You might calculate the time spent vs the money it costs to appease BlackMagic and just give them the money.
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dotes

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Re: Trying to calibrate GUI Viewer

PostThu Apr 17, 2014 4:40 pm

A few notes:
1) gamma 2.2 is ok if you are delivering for the web/tablets/PCs. While techically the standard gamma is sRGB, in reality displays are all over the place, and 2.2 is a safe choice (sRGB colored material will look crushed on 2.2-2.3 displays). For broadcast, you might want to consider 2.35, 2.4 and BT. 1886.
2) I am not sure if relative colorimetric is the right intent in this case. FWIW, I build my look-up tables with absolute colorimetric + white point scaling, but my display (wide gamut, as well) is initially calibrated to rec709/srgb as close as possible through hardware LUTS. You can ask about the intent on dispcalgui discussion boards. Florian is very helpful.
3) You can probably do a 65x cube LUT; it's not that big, but adds some precision.
4) Choose white point luminance based on the ambient light. 100cd/m2 might be too high if you work in subdued light. I think dispcalgui can measure ambient levels and suggest a white point.

You can also profile Resolve's color viewer directly by using Dispcalgui in untethered mode. This is a bit slower than your method, but you have the added insurance of profiling exactly the output of Resolve. Your probe is also pretty fast, so that's helpful. You can google or go to the dispcalgui discussion board for more info on this.
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Marc Wielage

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Re: Trying to calibrate GUI Viewer

PostFri Apr 18, 2014 12:04 am

Al Powell wrote:The reason it's so hard is because they want you to buy a breakout device. You might calculate the time spent vs the money it costs to appease BlackMagic and just give them the money.

$150 for a breakout box ain't gonna kill you.
marc wielage, csi • VP/color & workflow • chroma | hollywood

Al Powell

Re: Trying to calibrate GUI Viewer

PostFri Apr 18, 2014 4:07 am

Marc Wielage wrote:
Al Powell wrote:The reason it's so hard is because they want you to buy a breakout device. You might calculate the time spent vs the money it costs to appease BlackMagic and just give them the money.

$150 for a breakout box ain't gonna kill you.


It's not the money, it the principal. It's also a waste of a PCIe slot which is all that's available to me on the Mac Pro. I gave them the grand for a dongle now let me use it the way I want. Please.
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robulko

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Re: Trying to calibrate GUI Viewer

PostFri May 23, 2014 10:00 pm

Did you come to any reasonable conclusion with this? I'm kind of in the same situation.
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JosephSlomka

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Re: Trying to calibrate GUI Viewer

PostFri May 23, 2014 10:38 pm

Al Powell wrote:It's not the money, it the principal. It's also a waste of a PCIe slot which is all that's available to me on the Mac Pro. I gave them the grand for a dongle now let me use it the way I want. Please.


This may be the wrong business to be in if the use of a PCI slot is where you get outraged.
If $150 is out of line for this task, the best you can hope for is to do an OS level ICC calibration.
Calibrate your monitor to rec709/srgb primaries with a 100 cd/M"2 white point and a 2.4 gamma.

When it comes to display formats the Mac is graphically challenged. Without a breakout box the mac does not drive a 10bit hdmi/dvi/ or hd-sdi signal for a display.
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JosephSlomka

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Re: Trying to calibrate GUI Viewer

PostFri May 23, 2014 10:42 pm

Kuky wrote:Does anybody have any suggestions? Is it something I'm doing wrong ?


Besides suggesting a 2.4 gamma. I can't see any obvious problems in your process. Are you having any problems, are you not reaching your goal?

Al Powell

Re: Trying to calibrate GUI Viewer

PostSat May 24, 2014 5:24 am

JosephSlomka wrote:
Kuky wrote:Does anybody have any suggestions? Is it something I'm doing wrong ?


Besides suggesting a 2.4 gamma. I can't see any obvious problems in your process. Are you having any problems, are you not reaching your goal?


There ARE no suggestions. Resolve INTENTIONALLY circumnavigates any ICC profile your monitor is using (go ahead and cycle through them with Resolve open, it's infuriatingly hilarious). You CANNOT get an accurate GUI workspace on purpose. You have to buy their hardware. That's why the software is free.

popcornflix

Re: Trying to calibrate GUI Viewer

PostSat May 24, 2014 6:53 am

FWIW, you can save the slot by buying the Ultra Studio Mini Monitor instead. It's a Thunderbolt box that outputs SDI and HDMI.

They cost the same as the DeckLink cards.
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Cristian Buru

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Re: Trying to calibrate GUI Viewer

PostSat May 24, 2014 10:09 am

robulko wrote:Did you come to any reasonable conclusion with this? I'm kind of in the same situation.



Yes, I was able to calibrate my gui monitor quite precisely.

Contrary to what some guys are telling you it is quite doable. I'll try to write down what I did in a couple of days, it's a bit long. But it's not original, I just read what others do and compiled from there.
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Cristian Buru

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Re: Trying to calibrate GUI Viewer

PostSat May 24, 2014 10:08 pm

Kuky wrote:
robulko wrote:Did you come to any reasonable conclusion with this? I'm kind of in the same situation.



Yes, I was able to calibrate my gui monitor quite precisely.

Contrary to what some guys are telling you it is quite doable. I'll try to write down what I did in a couple of days, it's a bit long. But it's not original, I just read what others do and compiled from there.



Scratch that. As of today ArgyllCMS/DispcalGUI directly supports Resolve. This is major, as they are FREE and results are in the same league as Lightspace/Calman.

http://sourceforge.net/p/dispcalgui/wiki/3D%20LUT%20creation%20workflow%20for%20Resolve/
http://liftgammagain.com/forum/index.php?threads/3dlut-for-resolve-using-argyllcms-dispcalgui-advise-needed.2805/#post-22327

That means the workflow will be much, much simpler than what I was going to describe.
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Stepan Ko

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Re: Trying to calibrate GUI Viewer

PostSun May 25, 2014 10:31 am

It's strange i've also read that rec.709 gamma is approximately 2.4 but then the calibrator that calibrated our OLED set it to 2.2. Is this the old fashioned way or something?

By the way dispcalgui is great! And Florian is great as well. Very helpful. My gui looks pretty similar to the oled. Obviously the blacks are nowhere near the same, but otherwise perceptually it's pretty decent!

Hooray dispcalgui the tramp (like me) saviour!
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Cristian Buru

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Re: Trying to calibrate GUI Viewer

PostSun May 25, 2014 11:18 pm

You can spend 8 hours a day for several months on the net reading about which gamma is better.

http://www.spectracal.com/Documents/bt.1886.pdf

TL DR
Basically when Rec709 standard was published no gamma was mentioned by ITU. Because CRTs were having a TRC with a 2.2 gamma (especially the BVM Sony) this was considered the de facto standard for many years. Virtually all Rec709 material is mastered at 2.2 gamma. To make the confusion bigger some people used even 2.35 or 2.4 instead of 2.2.

BT 1886 was recommended as the standard by ITU in 2011 to mitigate the problem of black level in LCDs. It's a little bit complex because it tries to create a 2.4 power curve, but takes in consideration the black and white level also.

Most of the post houses still use even today 2.2, but some transitioned to BT 1886. How many? Who knows?

I use two LUTs, one with 2.2 gamma, one with BT 1886. I prefer the BT 1886 because it solves the problem of poor black levels (over 0.1 cd/m2) on some monitors and perceptually makes them look better.
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Marc Wielage

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Re: Trying to calibrate GUI Viewer

PostMon May 26, 2014 12:48 am

stepanko wrote:It's strange i've also read that rec.709 gamma is approximately 2.4 but then the calibrator that calibrated our OLED set it to 2.2. Is this the old fashioned way or something?

Here's a brief explanation of 2.2 gamma vs. 2.4 gamma:

http://www.chromapure.com/colorscience-gamma.asp

From the article:

The correct approach is suggested by the sRGB standard and has fairly recently been codified in a new gamma specification called BT.1886, which uses 2.4 as a starting point but adjusts the overall response curve depending on the black level and white level of the display. Like sRGB, BT.1886 recommends a gamma response that is higher at the top end than at the low end. A straight power curve of 2.4 is correct only if the display has a zero black level and an infinite contrast ratio, which no real-world display has. The full BT.1886 specification is complex and its precise recommendations vary depending upon the white level, and especially the black level, of the display. However, if you don't want to bother with a precise BT.1886 calculation, white/black values of 120/0.03 cd/m2 serve as a good rule of thumb. This results in a gamma response between 2.3-2.4 at the top end and 2.2-2.1 on the low end.

That makes sense to me.
marc wielage, csi • VP/color & workflow • chroma | hollywood
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robulko

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Re: Trying to calibrate GUI Viewer

PostMon May 26, 2014 6:00 pm

Kuky, thanks a lot for these links. I spent some quality time with my calibrator and Resolve last night, and I have to say things turned out quite well.

Kuky wrote:
Kuky wrote:Scratch that. As of today ArgyllCMS/DispcalGUI directly supports Resolve. This is major, as they are FREE and results are in the same league as Lightspace/Calman ...
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Re: Trying to calibrate GUI Viewer

PostWed May 28, 2014 12:29 am

Al Powell wrote:
JosephSlomka wrote:
Kuky wrote:Does anybody have any suggestions? Is it something I'm doing wrong ?


Besides suggesting a 2.4 gamma. I can't see any obvious problems in your process. Are you having any problems, are you not reaching your goal?


There ARE no suggestions. Resolve INTENTIONALLY circumnavigates any ICC profile your monitor is using (go ahead and cycle through them with Resolve open, it's infuriatingly hilarious). You CANNOT get an accurate GUI workspace on purpose. You have to buy their hardware. That's why the software is free.


Is this new? I haven't tested this on a production machine but with resolve 10 at my desk I certainly see the ICC profile have an effect on the image.

Thunderbolt display, mac 10.9, resolve light 10.x
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JosephSlomka

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Re: Trying to calibrate GUI Viewer

PostWed May 28, 2014 12:33 am

Kuky wrote:You can spend 8 hours a day for several months on the net reading about which gamma is better.

http://www.spectracal.com/Documents/bt.1886.pdf

TL DR
Basically when Rec709 standard was published no gamma was mentioned by ITU. Because CRTs were having a TRC with a 2.2 gamma (especially the BVM Sony) this was considered the de facto standard for many years. Virtually all Rec709 material is mastered at 2.2 gamma. To make the confusion bigger some people used even 2.35 or 2.4 instead of 2.2.

BT 1886 was recommended as the standard by ITU in 2011 to mitigate the problem of black level in LCDs. It's a little bit complex because it tries to create a 2.4 power curve, but takes in consideration the black and white level also.

Most of the post houses still use even today 2.2, but some transitioned to BT 1886. How many? Who knows?

I use two LUTs, one with 2.2 gamma, one with BT 1886. I prefer the BT 1886 because it solves the problem of poor black levels (over 0.1 cd/m2) on some monitors and perceptually makes them look better.



Many of the Hollywood houses use 2.4 gamma. This follow because many of the camera manufacturers specify 2.4 gamma for their video out colorimetry. Additionally film studios have followed suit, or lead the effort to begin with.
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Re: Trying to calibrate GUI Viewer

PostWed May 28, 2014 1:01 am

Al Powell wrote:
There ARE no suggestions. Resolve INTENTIONALLY circumnavigates any ICC profile your monitor is using (go ahead and cycle through them with Resolve open, it's infuriatingly hilarious). You CANNOT get an accurate GUI workspace on purpose. You have to buy their hardware. That's why the software is free.

Circumventing the rather faulty icc profile implementation is a feature not a bug. You can profile your GUI display and generate a calibration lut, then apply that lut as a GUI lut, and you have a color accurate viewer, in as much as your GUI display can be considered color accurate anyway.

If you're calibrating with something like a Spyder however, you're probably doing far more harm than good.
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Re: Trying to calibrate GUI Viewer

PostWed May 28, 2014 3:07 am

J_Salvo, do you consider X-Rite i1 Display Pro to be in the same league as Spyder for that matter? Thanks.

J_Salvo wrote:
Al Powell wrote:
There ARE no suggestions. Resolve INTENTIONALLY circumnavigates any ICC profile your monitor is using (go ahead and cycle through them with Resolve open, it's infuriatingly hilarious). You CANNOT get an accurate GUI workspace on purpose. You have to buy their hardware. That's why the software is free.

Circumventing the rather faulty icc profile implementation is a feature not a bug. You can profile your GUI display and generate a calibration lut, then apply that lut as a GUI lut, and you have a color accurate viewer, in as much as your GUI display can be considered color accurate anyway.

If you're calibrating with something like a Spyder however, you're probably doing far more harm than good.
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Cristian Buru

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Re: Trying to calibrate GUI Viewer

PostWed May 28, 2014 7:55 am

Don't bother using Spyder, i1 Display Pro is fine.
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Cristian Buru

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Re: Trying to calibrate GUI Viewer

PostWed May 28, 2014 3:41 pm

This is the guide. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3ncQl4hSqlncGlDbTVpWFNwaXc/edit?usp=sharing For some reason Google Viewer does not display it correctly, you have to download the pdf.

Use at your own risk.
If you find errors in it, please give feedback. Thank you
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Re: Trying to calibrate GUI Viewer

PostFri May 30, 2014 1:04 pm

Kuky, thanks for your effort.
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Re: Trying to calibrate GUI Viewer

PostSat May 31, 2014 6:19 am

robulko wrote:J_Salvo, do you consider X-Rite i1 Display Pro to be in the same league as Spyder for that matter? Thanks.


spyder is crap, get the i1D3 (i1 Display Pro) whcih is a good budget colorimeter....

please understand that the colorimeter is not (very) color accurate and it will get more and more inaccurate over time... u need a spectro reference meter to create reference offsets for the colorimeter, utterly important when you calibrate for color critical application...
Display Profiling & Calibration Tools, Lightspace discount: http://displaycalibrationtools.com/
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Will Tejeda

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Re: Trying to calibrate GUI Viewer

PostSun Aug 24, 2014 1:10 pm

Kuky wrote:This is the guide. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3ncQl4hSqlncGlDbTVpWFNwaXc/edit?usp=sharing For some reason Google Viewer does not display it correctly, you have to download the pdf.

Use at your own risk.
If you find errors in it, please give feedback. Thank you



Is this your write up ? If so, are you still using this method or have you found a better way of doing it in the past couple months
Will Tejeda
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Cristian Buru

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Re: Trying to calibrate GUI Viewer

PostSun Aug 24, 2014 1:42 pm

Didn't find time to update the guide, but what do you mean by a "better" way?
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Will Tejeda

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Re: Trying to calibrate GUI Viewer

PostSun Aug 24, 2014 2:21 pm

By "better" , I just meant if you had changed anything since then
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Cristian Buru

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Re: Trying to calibrate GUI Viewer

PostMon Aug 25, 2014 10:43 am

Will Tejeda wrote:By "better" , I just meant if you had changed anything since then


No, sorry, didn't find the time to do a follow up.
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Subrata Senn

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Re: Trying to calibrate GUI Viewer

PostMon Aug 25, 2014 7:51 pm

Al Powell wrote:
JosephSlomka wrote:
Kuky wrote:Does anybody have any suggestions? Is it something I'm doing wrong ?


Besides suggesting a 2.4 gamma. I can't see any obvious problems in your process. Are you having any problems, are you not reaching your goal?


There ARE no suggestions. Resolve INTENTIONALLY circumnavigates any ICC profile your monitor is using (go ahead and cycle through them with Resolve open, it's infuriatingly hilarious). You CANNOT get an accurate GUI workspace on purpose. You have to buy their hardware. That's why the software is free.


Not exactly true. The Resolve 11 manual actually says you can work with your computer monitor if it is properly calibrated to sRGB standards. You can also apply viewer Lut from Resolve to change the colour space.

However, it also warns against "most" computer monitors which cannot be calibrated fully. A properly calibrated wide-gamut monitor with sRGB set at 2.4 gamma should be equal to Rec 709 2.4 gamma.

The digital cameras shoot at sRGB colour space. So a high end GUI monitor, properly calibrated should preserve that colour. And you can put a proper output Lut for any colour conversion.
Independent filmmaker/producer
Owner of post production facility for cinema including grading and creation of DCPs.
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David Skok

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Re: Trying to calibrate GUI Viewer

PostWed Jun 28, 2017 10:24 pm

HERE IS THE SOLUTION:

I have also spent hours researching how to fix the problem of Resolve displaying my clips too dark, and with too much contrast. However after nearly tearing my hair out in frustration, I found the solution on BMCUser forum.

"Something else i can think of is how are you interpreting the footage? In the edit tab in Resolve right click on your footage and go to 'clip attributes'. You should see a section under the video tab called levels and three options: auto, data and video. On default it's set to auto, try setting it to data and click ok. If the footage you've just changed is loaded in the viewer you should see the blacks/shadows raise, and you can confirm that with the scopes in the color tab. From there you should fix shadows and then output using data levels."

It turns out that this magically solved the entire problem, and saves the need to go through an extremely complex and painful set of steps to calibrate the viewer. Simply select all clips in the Media Manager and set the Clip Attributes to "Data" or Full. Then when exporting using the Deliver page, in the advanced section, for Data Levels to Full, and your Quicktime or MP4 H.264 movies will finally match what every other software program shows in the way of color, gamma and contrast.

Best, David Skok
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David Skok

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Re: Trying to calibrate GUI Viewer

PostWed Jun 28, 2017 10:29 pm

Sorry one other thing that I should have added to the SOLUTION that i just posted, if on a Mac, you should have the Project settings/Color Management as follows:

"Use Mac Display Color Profile for viewers" Checked.

Timeline Color Space: Rec.709 Gamma 2.2 (not the default of Gamma 2.4).

Your Resolve viewer will now show your video clips looking exactly the same as Final Cut Pro, Quicktime, etc.

- David Skok
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JPOwens

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Re: Trying to calibrate GUI Viewer

PostThu Jun 29, 2017 6:00 pm

David Skok wrote:It turns out that this magically solved the entire problem, and saves the need to go through an extremely complex and painful set of steps to calibrate the viewer.


somewhat disagree... step one is of course to get the values in the correct range, but stating that this is equivalent to achieving a calibrated viewer is not correct. All the display profiles still need to be validated with a measuring device that is capable of seeing those values. Trusting a manufacturer's graphic UI carte blanche is missing the point that these are mass-produced consumer items that are being tossed out on the delivery dock by the thousands, with no real regard for whether they conform to industry standards that will withstand the scrutiny of a talented operator or satisfy paying clients.

jPo, CSI
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Trying to calibrate GUI Viewer

PostThu Jun 29, 2017 11:19 pm

Yep- having same preview in Resolve and QT player is totally irrelevant to actual preview been accurate or not.
These are almost 2 separate issues.

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