Sony A7s audio problem

I have been just importing Sony A7s MP4 files into resolve and it tells me there is 0 audio channels. When I open them in abobe premiere the audio is there. This happens both in Resolve 10 and 11 beta.

[Dwaine Maggart]

Resolve does not support mp4 files, or any compressed audio file formats.

Resolve 11 supports 44.1 and 48 Khz wav and aiff files.

It's very annoying that these toy cameras don't use professional audio formats. This is clearly not a Resolve problem. It's for reasons like this that serious users really must use an external sound mixer and recorder on projects like this. Anything less is half-assed.

Audio Format : XAVC S: LPCM 2ch. AVCHD: Dolby Digital (AC-3), 2ch., Dolby Digital Stereo Creator MP4: MPEG-4 AAC-LC, 2ch.

I don't see any "toy camera" non professional formats there?

AC-3 and AAC are compressed formats more suitable for distribution than recording, and the LPCM the A7s shoots is, I believe, only 16 bit.

The A7s, GH4 and similar are very interesting cameras, but if you're trying to integrate them into pro workflows, an external recorder that can shoot ProRes (or something other than some variant of H.264) is a good idea. Such recorders will also generally support 24 bit 48 KHz audio. Or you could just run dual system sound, of course.

I've read it's 48Khz 24-bit. Anyway, add the balanced XLR input adapter you have very decent audio.

I've read it's 48Khz 24-bit. Anyway, add the balanced XLR input adapter you have very decent audio.

Sample clips I've seen are 16-bit, but I haven't gotten my hands on the camera yet. If the camera can do 48Khz 24-bit LPCM, yeah, I agree it's silly if Resolve doesn't support that.

[Dwaine Maggart]

A bit of mis-understanding on my part. I originally read your post as you were using some sort of mp4 audio files with Resolve, which in hindsight doesn't make much sense. You have an mp4 video file with embedded audio. My comments were specific to audio files.

If you could provide a small sample file for us to look at, that would be helpful.

A bit of mis-understanding on my part. I originally read your post as you were using some sort of mp4 audio files with Resolve, which in hindsight doesn't make much sense. You have an mp4 video file with embedded audio. My comments were specific to audio files. If you could provide a small sample file for us to look at, that would be helpful.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8oex4outbvqf9pc/C0019.MP4

Here is a small file direct from the camera… I submitted it earlier maybe you already have it. Also to respond to people calling this a toy camera... I myself after grading some footage from the A7S in resolve can say that this camera has seriously good IQ and dynamic range. Its quite remarkable in such a small camera and at the price.

Here are the A7S movie file formats:

Movie (XAVC S format): MPEG-4
AVC/H.264 XAVC S ver.1.0
format compliant
Video: MPEG-4 AVC/H.264
Audio: LPCM 2ch (48 kHz
16 bit)

Movie (AVCHD format): AVCHD
format Ver. 2.0 compatible
Video: MPEG-4 AVC/H.264
Audio: Dolby Digital 2ch,
equipped with Dolby Digital
Stereo Creator
• Manufactured under license
from Dolby Laboratories.

Movie (MP4 format):
Video: MPEG-4 AVC/H.264
Audio: MPEG-4 AAC-LC 2ch

Hopefully, Resolve will support both video and audio for at least the XAVC S.

This is a very important camera.

Cheers.

I just tested the Sony A7S with XAVC-S, and the audio for that format is also not recognized by Resolve 11.

It is 48 kHz audio and is recognized by Premiere.

Camera audio is very important, even when only used as a scratch/timecode track for sync.

The editing features you have added to v11 are tremendous. But without audio, they are of little use.

Please add audio to your list.

Cheers.

I have the Sony A7S, and it evidently has pretty good audio to complement the breakthrough video. Resolve is my grading program of choice. I would surely like to see it support the XAVC S (mp4) format audio, as it supports the video from that format. I would like to hear if there is any progress on this front.

People who claim you need 24 bit depth in location audio -- I don't know what they are talking about. What you need is really good microphones and placement and hopefully locations that are not too bad sound-wise.

dn

Solution? Transcode. When I shoot with consumer cameras such as the NEX series, GH3/4 or the wonderful Sony A7s, I NEVER edit native. Simply transcode all your compressed streams to a professional 10bit 'editing' codec like ProRes 422, (or 444 if you can afford the extra disk space) make sure the audio is converted to Pulse Code Modulation (PCM) and your problems will vanish.

I'm not sure 'dumbing down' professional software such as Resolve so that it will accept consumer codecs is the right way to go. Rather, training 'consumers' in how to adopt a professional workflow may be more appropriate.

Most consumer cameras don't generate timecode or reel numbers either which in my opinion, are an essential part of any professional workflow. Good, low cost transcoders such as my favourite, ClipToolz 'CONVERT' can be very useful as they perform all these tasks in the same pass and will generate identical proxy files too, if you need them. see: http://www.cliptoolz.com/convert.html

I'm not sure 'dumbing down' professional software such as Resolve so that it will accept consumer codecs is the right way to go.

Resolve currently supports audio shot with a Nikon D800, Canon 5D, and many other DSLRs, as well as the now $495 Pocket.

The A7S is hardly a "consumer" camera, both with respect to price and image quality.

XAVC S is simply the "lite" version of the F5/55 XAVC codec, just as ProRes LT is to ProRes HQ.

Cheers.

I'm not sure 'dumbing down' professional software such as Resolve so that it will accept consumer codecs is the right way to go. Rather, training 'consumers' in how to adopt a professional workflow may be more appropriate. Most consumer cameras don't generate timecode or reel numbers either which in my opinion, are an essential part of any professional workflow.

Very well said. And thanks for the tip on ClipToolz. (Gak -- only for Windows... )

And thanks for the tip on ClipToolz. (Gak -- only for Windows... )

ClipToolz have a Mac and Unix version of their 'Monocle' app almost ready for release (creates remarkable, high resolution deBayered monochrome images from RAW colour frames) so cross platform versions of selected 'Toolz' may follow if there is sufficient interest.

Some amusing "pro" condescension in this thread.
The more cameras supported out of the box, the better. The transcoding talk is B.S. for people with religious adherence to their self-prescribed workflow and with ridiculous amount of free time.

Transcoding into any compressed codec is unnecessary AND diminishes image quality. In particular, transcoding into prores 422 increases filesize pointlessly. Useless if your hardware can handle editing native camera long gop files.

Some amusing "pro" condescension in this thread. The more cameras supported out of the box, the better.

Not if they suck. The downward spiral of the industry in general isn't helped by people using $995 cameras on supposedly "pro" productions.

I don't have problems with people shooting fancy home movies, student projects, or YouTube videos on toy cameras. But I think we have some major issues with unrealistic expectations, especially for a camera this cheap and crappy.

Transcoding into any compressed codec is unnecessary AND diminishes image quality. In particular, transcoding into prores 422 increases filesize pointlessly. Useless if your hardware can handle editing native camera long gop files.

Speaking as a post supervisor, I have not found this to be a problem. One can make an argument that using a video format native to the OS (like ProRes in the case of Mac) lightens the CPU load, particularly in comparison to H.264 or other DSLR formats.

I've done a couple of very small micro-budgeted features shooting on Canon 7D's and 5D's where we bumped up to ProRes 422 HQ as part of the process and it worked fine. No issues with file storage, multiple layers, lots of corrections. And all our audio was done with an external sound recorder, so that was flawless.

Some amusing "pro" condescension in this thread.
The more cameras supported out of the box, the better. The transcoding talk is B.S. for people with religious adherence to their self-prescribed workflow and with ridiculous amount of free time.

Transcoding into any compressed codec is unnecessary AND diminishes image quality. In particular, transcoding into prores 422 increases filesize pointlessly. Useless if your hardware can handle editing native camera long gop files.

Agree completely.

"Pro" has for too long been more associated with equipment cost than talent. That is rapidly coming to and end. What was once a small niche industry has expanded exponentially, and along with it Resolve users.

Of the many new features recently added to Resolve, the longest list concerns editing. It is now entirely possible to post a film entirely in Resolve -- except, of course, if transcoding is required.

Hopefully, that won't be for long.

Cheers.

lylevincent

How did the Sony A7s 8-bit files hold up in grading?

Would love to have one of these cameras.

The Sony A7s debuts at Pinewood Studios UK, in 4K!

"Quite simply, this was the sharpest-looking thing I have ever seen in a cinema...

...Finally, I saw some low-light HD shots from the Alpha 7S side-by-side with a Canon 5D Mk III. There was an obvious difference in sharpness. The Canon was noticeably softer. This wasn’t a surprise at all: it just shows how technology has moved on and what’s possible at a given price point...

...It’s quite clear to me and to Phil Rhodes, RedShark’s Technical Editor, who was there with me, that the Alpha 7S is a watershed product. It’s going to change the buying habits of film makers for some time to come."

Link to the full RSN article: http://www.redsharknews.com/production/item/1872-we-see-how-good-the-alpha-7s-really-is-in-a-cinema?utm_source=www.lwks.com+subscribers&utm_campaign=c591819caa-RSN_July29_2014&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_079aaa3026-c591819caa-74492041

Having the exact same problem with Sony A7s audio in Resolve 11 Lite.

Not sure what is unprofessional about a 4k camera having 24-bit 48 KHz audio -- but I've got no skin in that game.

Samples available if necessary.

Who uses Resolve to grade MP4 files? I'm very confused. Just use MB Looks or FilmConvert in Premiere. Resolve is professional level color correcting tool.

Who uses Resolve to grade MP4 files? I'm very confused. Just use MB Looks or FilmConvert in Premiere.

Professionals know adding an extra unnecessary generation of encoding isn't good. Work from originals wherever practical.

Professionals also know MP4 is a codec wrapper. Many types of codecs might live inside.

Resolve is professional level color correcting tool.

This bit is correct.

[Peter Chamberlain]

There looks to be something in the header which is upsetting the Quicktime API. Can't play here on QT7 either.

Just tested the playback of a couple XAVC-S clips on a Windows 7 64-bit platform, sourced from both local storage and directly off the memory card of a Sony A7s camera:

VLC: Yes audio
Windows Media Player: Yes audio
Quicktime: No audio -- Error -2041: an invalid sample description was found in the movie (C0012.MP4)

I stay as far away from Quicktime as possible these days -- so I never witnessed the problem before.

Then I did a quick search and found this post:

XAVCS is called like that because it is a non compliant mp4. Mp4 requires AAC audio or PCM instead the Sony XAVCS have a WAV audio that makes them uncompliant. Quicktime won't play it but VLC will

As a quick follow-up to my post above, Sony's general product page indicates that the audio format of the Sony A7s when recording XAVC-S is LPCM, 2ch.

Page 90 of the A7s Manual confirms that the audio format of XAVC-S is LPCM 2ch (48 kHz 16 bit).

And according to Wikipedia, Linear PCM does not appear to be supported within the MP4 container format.

XAVC-S is obviously a proprietary, non-standard, high-level profile of H.264. Not sure if Quicktime is choking on the profile or the audio. However, the following NLEs reportedly have no problem ingesting it: Adobe Premiere Pro, Apple Final Cut Pro X, Grass Valley Edius Pro, Autodesk Smoke and Sony Vegas Pro.

Edit: Clarification

and it tells me there is 0 audio channels.

Hi,

the same problem exists with panasonics AVCCAM-Files (*.mts) even if in the feature-list of Resolve 11 panasonics *.mts files are described as native supported formats.

Dwaine already got some sample *.mts files from a panasonic cam.

I think ... and I hope ... when the "0 audio channels" problem in the *.mts format is solved, it should also be solved in other formats like XAVC / XAVC-S in an mp4-container.

Thanks a lot.
Peter

Sort of off topic:

Does anyone able to ingest A7s XAVC-S footage with proper timecode intact? I tried several NLE and Resolve and they all starts with 00:00:00:00.

Chatted with Sony support and they claimed that XAVC-S from the A7s has timecode recorded.

Thanks.

So, is there a fix on the way or are these requests ignored because it would make the life of "toy camera" owners too easy?

It's very annoying that these toy cameras don't use professional audio formats. This is clearly not a Resolve problem. It's for reasons like this that serious users really must use an external sound mixer and recorder on projects like this. Anything less is half-assed.

Errr...what? You clearly have no clue. Resolve is not "dumbing down" and if anything needs to wake up to support this and other formats like others do.

( Sorry for my "French english")

A good "joke" for those who want to import A7S files into resolve:
I wanted to try different type of encoding to recover the A7S audio files.
I did some tests with TEncoder (free and very easy to find: tencoder 4.5.3 64bit)


... And just out of curiosity, I tried:
Video Codec: Direct Copy
Audio Codec: Direct Copy
Encoder: FFMpeg
Container: MOV
Guess what?
yes, audio is back !

Now, I know what to do when importing A7S files into my PC

Errr...what? You clearly have no clue. Resolve is not "dumbing down" and if anything needs to wake up to support this and other formats like others do.

Indeed. Resolve's audio support is crippling for a lot of productions. It's the only glaring limitation that prevented us from using Resolve 10 for our feature film edit, which we're instead doing in Premiere since it's far better with audio. Even LightWorks has better audio support than Resolve, though syncing audio + video in LightWorks was still rather clunky in the last version I tried.

[quote="Craig Marshall"]Solution? Transcode. When I shoot with consumer cameras such as the NEX series, GH3/4 or the wonderful Sony A7s, I NEVER edit native. Simply transcode all your compressed streams to a professional 10bit 'editing' codec like ProRes 422...

Good, low cost transcoders such as my favourite, ClipToolz 'CONVERT' can be very useful as they perform all these tasks in the same pass and will generate identical proxy files too.

Just tried out ClipToolz. Extremely useful. The interface sure feels like a UNIX style front-end but it does work well to add proper metadata and do simple and fast transcoding to ProRes. Caveat: I do have the Mirazon ProRes encoder (previously) installed so things just worked. However, it maybe that ClipToolz installs this as well. Someone else will have to confirm this. Cost is close to $25 USD but operates in a limited but useful demo mode prior to purchase. I would counsel Windows users to give it a shot. It sure makes using Resolve a lot easier with compressed formats.

Will do more testing on other compressed formats, other than XAVC S, to see how things go

Indeed. Resolve's audio support is crippling for a lot of productions. It's the only glaring limitation that prevented us from using Resolve 10 for our feature film edit, which we're instead doing in Premiere since it's far better with audio.

Although Premiere has its own really annoying issues, like an inability to properly isolate audio to the LFE channel in a 5.1 mix.

But yeah, Resolve really needs to be less picky about what audio it accepts, and if it's going to be used for editing, it needs to be able to do audio-only exports and handle things like exporting tracks to separate files.

Although Premiere has its own really annoying issues, like an inability to properly isolate audio to the LFE channel in a 5.1 mix.

But yeah, Resolve really needs to be less picky about what audio it accepts, and if it's going to be used for editing, it needs to be able to do audio-only exports and handle things like exporting tracks to separate files.

It also needs proper OMF support and sync tools. It might even have decent sync tools right now, but they don't work if Resolve won't even recognize the files in the first place.

Just ran into this same "no audio" problem in Resolve myself after a recent shoot that included an A7S and found a solution on Mac: a conversion program called EditReady. It was able to do simple rewrap to change the files from .mp4 container into .mov container. The rewrapped files then have audio in Resolve and I can happily output my edit proxies with color AND sound.
I did once run into some problems with EditReady when using it to transcode some 29.97p produced by the Canon C300 (and actually it's probably the fault of Canon's terrible decision to record in PsF rather than straight progressive...), but EditReady has worked flawlessly with the A7S files. Hope it's useful for other Mac users out there who may be less familiar with the hoops you have to jump through to install and run ffmpeg as was suggested above.

Just tried out ClipToolz. Extremely useful. The interface sure feels like a UNIX style front-end but it does work well to add proper metadata and do simple and fast transcoding to ProRes. Caveat: I do have the Mirazon ProRes encoder (previously) installed so things just worked. However, it maybe that ClipToolz installs this as well. Someone else will have to confirm this. Cost is close to $25 USD but operates in a limited but useful demo mode prior to purchase. I would counsel Windows users to give it a shot. It sure makes using Resolve a lot easier with compressed formats.

The full version of ClipToolz Convert v2.1.10 is now completely free and has recently been updated to include new some codecs including H.265. There's a useful set of Scopes and Timecode Tool which will quickly 're-stripe' timecode on your existing ProRes files without re-rendering - ideal for those shooting on external HDMI recorders when the camera does not generate a broadcast standard timecode.http://hdcinematics.com/convert-V2.html

Convert v2.xx also includes a couple of handy Audio features:

PCM AUDIO

"ClipToolz Convert will by default pass the audio from your original clip to the conversion unaltered. If you would prefer to re-encode the audio into PCM format (from .ac3 for example) click the AUDIO dropdown selector and choose a PCM audio format for your conversion.

BlackMagic Hyperdeck clips will show 16 channels of audio. ClipToolz Convert will strip out the unused channels and render your conversion with a properly mapped audio track. The PCM AUDIO button is ignored when 16 channel audio is detected."

FYI: The audio recorded by the A7S is already PCM. The problem Resolve is having is with the .mp4 container. Rewrap to .mov container rather than a transcode is all that's needed to make A7S clips work properly in Resolove

So, I HAD to finally join this forum after getting to the bottom of this thread. After hours trying to figure out how to edit my a7S footage with audio (so that I can replace my original media in my edit), I came to this post above. This led me to quicktime to export 1080p the .mp4 to .mov. Yes, audio was there when I imported into resolve but that right there is a transcoding process. And quicktime is limited to 10mbps. You all know that the sony a7s shoots in 50mbps. The waveform in Resolve clearly shows the difference. Try it.

I even went to Mac's Automator utility to covert video. Again, a transcoding process that has the same 50mbps down to 10mbps limitation. What to do? I did more digging and found a cool little utility that finally did the trick...for $36. But it has an easy interface so I am thrilled.

iskysoft convert-mp4-to-mov-on-mac

use the fcpx setting and leave options to "smart..something" can't remember exactly what it says.

So, all you have to do is run your footage through this and then grade it. Once you complete the the grade and export your .mov files, use the automator mac utility to rename all of the files (mov to mp4) and now you have media that is identical to your originals except graded in resolve. Don't forget on the Deliver page of resolve to include audio and use the source filename.

One bug fix:
This utility sometimes adds "converted" to the file name. So I suggest using "Automator" to rename all of the clips to the original names. Don't do this before you grade because even if you choose .mp4 as the Codec on the Resolve Deliver page, you still get a .mov. So you're still going to have to change the name again...back to .mp4. That is if you're doing the workflow I am. If you grading before you edit then it doesn't matter what titles they have. But I am working with my editor who finished the edit pre-resolve and now wants my graded footage to replace the footage he has. What I've done in the past (with my BMCC) is overwrite the files in the "original media" folder of fcpx and if the files are identical, then all is well. So that's what I'm doing here.

I tried over and over again and fcpx doesn't recognize the files as the exact same. If I don't use the fcpx setting, and I use the simple mov setting, fcpx says "modified file" and won't relink. If I use the fcpx setting, the video comes through but the audio is red and is not in sync with the audio. I think its a few frames off or more. But at least the video came through. Because we are doing a separate audio production, this may be ok but we'll have to sync sound visually.

I tried several different audio settings but nothing makes fcpx recognize it as the original file. Any help would be great. Who want to take it from here?

I took the liberty of making a tutorial video on how to work with the Sony a7s footage and Resolve using this workaround to get audio into your grade.

Since we can't paste links here, please search this on youtube:

How to fix Sony a7S audio issue in DaVinci Resolve

Another easy and fast way to do the rewrap is to use EditReady from Divergent Media

Have you successfully used Edit Ready to rewrap .movs out from DaVinci into .MP4s for the purpose of overwriting Original Media .MP4s in a FCPX event without the "Modified File" red x alert?

I actually could not reliably get the iSkysoft Video Converter to rewrap successfully for this workflow.

FYI: The audio recorded by the A7S is already PCM. The problem Resolve is having is with the .mp4 container. Rewrap to .mov container rather than a transcode is all that's needed to make A7S clips work properly in Resolove

ClipToolz Convert's ability to batch 're-wrap' to .mov and include user selected reel numbering embedded into the timecode has got to be an advantage. Especially as it may also solve this A7s audio issue.

Off Topic but for those that may be interested:

As far as I'm aware, the A7s does not allow the user to input 'reel numbers' into the timecode prior to record. Timecode with a unique reel number identifier has been the backbone of successful professional workflows for a long time so if we assume for the purposes of efficient post production, that no two frames in any one reel should have the same timecode, then using reel numbers and clean timecode as a means of identifying scenes in the field or on set can be very helpful, especially if editors plan to export an EDL or AAF from their NLEs into Resolve.

For those who would like to perform a timecode 're-stripe' on their existing files to quickly clean up the code prior to the edit without any further transcode or re-render, ClipToolz includes a handy Timecode tool which on selected codecs, will perform this function.

For example, I shoot directly to ProRes HQ 4:2:2 with an older S35 camera which does not generate timecode internally. Each recorded ProRes file contains a timecode commencing at 00:00:00:00 so I simply use to ClipToolz to re-strip each day's shoot with an automatic sequential timecode whilst embedding unique reel numbers of my choice which identify each day or scene or whatever. On completion of the edit my NLE generates a simple EDL which when imported into Resolve, instantly creates a perfect timeline ready for the final grade and Delivery.

Have you successfully used Edit Ready to rewrap .movs out from DaVinci into .MP4s for the purpose of overwriting Original Media .MP4s in a FCPX event without the "Modified File" red x alert?

I actually could not reliably get the iSkysoft Video Converter to rewrap successfully for this workflow.

Edit Ready has worked perfectly for me, but I use it to rewrap the A7s .mp4 files to .mov before I begin any import into either Resolve or FCPX, not after.

Off Topic but for those that may be interested:

As far as I'm aware, the A7s does not allow the user to input 'reel numbers' into the timecode prior to record. Timecode with a unique reel number identifier has been the backbone of successful professional workflows for a long time so if we assume for the purposes of efficient post production, that no two frames in any one reel should have the same timecode, then using reel numbers and clean timecode as a means of identifying scenes in the field or on set can be very helpful, especially if editors plan to export an EDL or AAF from their NLEs into Resolve.

For those who would like to perform a timecode 're-stripe' on their existing files to quickly clean up the code prior to the edit without any further transcode or re-render, ClipToolz includes a handy Timecode tool which on selected codecs, will perform this function.

Very cool. I'll have to try that sometime. Thanks!

Does anyone know the command string for ffMPEG that rewraps XAVC-I footage to MP4 WITHOUT compressing the audio (leaving it PCM)?

I have gotten as far as rewrapping, but with compression of the audio to AAC with the following:

K:\FS7 Footage\XDROOT\Clip>K:\ffmpeg-20150720-git-9ebe041-win64-static\bin\ffmpe
g -loglevel error -y -i "302_0003.MXF" -map 0:0 -filter_complex "[0:1] [0:2] ame
rge" -acodec aac -b:a 256k -strict -2 -vcodec copy -metadata "date=2014-11-17 00
:24:47" "302_0003.mp4"

What should I change in the above command to leave audio PCM but still rewrap?

Hi,

Get rid of the aac codec specifier - I'd expect the command would be:

K:\FS7 Footage\XDROOT\Clip>K:\ffmpeg-20150720-git-9ebe041-win64-static\bin\ffmpe
g -loglevel error -y -i "302_0003.MXF" -map 0:0 -filter_complex "[0:1] [0:2] ame
rge" -acodec copy -strict -2 -vcodec copy -metadata "date=2014-11-17 00
:24:47" "302_0003.mp4"

Regards,

Dave.

I don't see any "toy camera" non professional formats there?

No timecode, compressed AAC audio, recording video in a Long-GOP H.264 variant. That's almost the definition of a toy camera.

I have no problem with the BMD Pocket Camera, which will at least record ProRes and WAV files. Same with the bigger Sony F3 and F5.

For example, I shoot directly to ProRes HQ 4:2:2 with an older S35 camera which does not generate timecode internally. Each recorded ProRes file contains a timecode commencing at 00:00:00:00 so I simply use to ClipToolz to re-strip each day's shoot with an automatic sequential timecode whilst embedding unique reel numbers of my choice which identify each day or scene or whatever. On completion of the edit my NLE generates a simple EDL which when imported into Resolve, instantly creates a perfect timeline ready for the final grade and Delivery.

That's a good workaround and would totally suffice for post. Often, my advice to clients is that they have to shot with the intention of the post workflow already in mind. You can't just worry about the workflow after you shoot, because by then, there's a good chance the train is already off the rails.

I don't see any "toy camera" non professional formats there?

No timecode, compressed AAC audio, recording video in a Long-GOP H.264 variant. That's almost the definition of a toy camera.

I have no problem with the BMD Pocket Camera, which will at least record ProRes and WAV files. Same with the bigger Sony F3 and F5.

Crikey, a year later...

A light weight acquisition format doesn't make a camera a toy camera.