Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw Files?

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Mark Davies

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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostFri Aug 29, 2014 6:43 am

Marc Wielage wrote:Image
Mark Davies wrote:I bet the colour balls on the hardware are brilliant Unfortunately, pretty clunky on the program.

You're not using any hardware? Game over. Buy an inexpensive panel like the Tangent or MC Color. You can't color correct precisely without it. You also can't mix without hardware faders. Anything else is just screwing around.

I mean no disrespect, but have you ever sat in with an experienced colorist and watched them work? One 8-hour day would be extremely illuminating. I've learned a lot from my brothers in the VFX industry, and sitting in with them in the compositing and animation cubicles has taught me what problems they deal with, how they solve them, what clients expect, and the degrees of difficulty involved. Same deal with sitting in with an editor or a sound mixer -- all different skills that overlap in key areas.

Digital colour correction is robotic enslavement with no pay and a difficult job for those who are With little in the way of creative benefits.

Wow. Can I knit that into a doily and hang it on the wall of the color correction room? The one I put up at Complete Post in Hollywood for 10 years was a paraphrase of the Hunter Thompson quote:

The post-production business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side.

I would add as a postscript: "It's not enslavement if you know what you're doing and know where the limits are." I've often warned colorists I've trained (I think a dozen over the last 20 years), "the hardest part of color correction is dealing with clients and managing their expectations... not the technical end." Knowing the knobs and menus is trivial. Having a knowledge of photography, lenses, exposure, cameras, and having a good grasp of problem solving are all keys. And maybe the single most important thing is having a positive attitude and knowing how to tactfully tell the client the truth while still solving their problems. It also helps to be human, compassionate, and have a good artistic sensibility, and yet also understand that we're all here for the money.

Color temperature is maybe .001% of the battle. To me, what you're asking for is just white balance. Five seconds and we're done. Move on to the next shot.

I would love to buy the hardware Who knows One day I might But as a film maker director writer I have a lot of other priorities and areas to learn At my level I need to be. If I ever got to the standard where I could pay for colour correction I would. Surely if I know something about colour correction That is a good thing isn't it? Surely by up and coming film makers having a few helpful one stop tools will help them get some recognition and move them to a position they can pay you and your students that's a good thing?. In the end working together in the same industry we all win. Isn't that what we want. Don't you want film makers who appreciate your work?

As for five seconds and done That's insulting I take sometimes days trying to get the right look and often come back later and redo it all again.

I guess if anything I am used to having certain tools in MB that I'm familiar with and would like to see some of those tools here. Resolve is growing on me It does many things better than AE Just doesn't have AEs full range of tools useful in colour like adjustment layers for example where you could add NR globally for example. Anyway I can understand the fear some have that resolve may lose its elitist status and lose sight of its professional vision. I can ask for tools and in the end BM can decide to implement them or not. Its just a program that either has tools or doesn't. A sports car may cost thousands more be uncomfortable needs lots of maintanence and costly. I'm asking for a sports car with springy seats and good all round vision. I'm not trying to change it from being a sports car but more into a comfortable workhorse whilst in the driving seat. Surely that is not to much of a compromise is it?
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostSat Aug 30, 2014 4:34 am

Mark Davies wrote:As for five seconds and done That's insulting I take sometimes days trying to get the right look and often come back later and redo it all again.

Watch a pro at work sometimes. When we have to get 600 shots done in a day, and the client is up against the wall with a tough deadline, 45 seconds a shot may be all we have. Once the look is established, the back and forth may truly only take 5 seconds. Getting the white balance right might actually take 10 seconds, 15 tops. This is not rocket science, but it does take experience, scopes, and a good feel for the material.

If you knew precisely what you were doing, you might not have to redo it all again. Again, spend some time with an experienced colorist and you'll be amazed by the useful shortcuts and techniques they have. I've been doing this more than 30 years, and I still learn tons of stuff by sharing info with other people. Nobody knows it all. Having the right hardware is an important part of being efficient and productive.

Mark Davies wrote:Don't you want film makers who appreciate your work?

IMDB me.
marc wielage, csi • VP/color & workflow • chroma | hollywood
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostSat Aug 30, 2014 8:10 am

I spent a day with a colourist in London who had a small cinema screen with a projector and a LOT of equipment. What I learned was, the work that goes into colour correction can be as little or as much as you make it!

Re white balance Yes some shots are easy to do and just a matter of adjusting the primaries using scopes. But its not always that easy and scopes can be useless White balance may not be necessary if you're going for a look.

Really though Are these reasons not to have a white balance or colour temp button? They may not always work and so what Just sometimes in the fight to get a balance they just rarely they magically achieve something that was a problem.
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostSat Aug 30, 2014 2:32 pm

I already stated that Yes a slide it is theoretically possible but it will be wrong at most or vastly misleading at least and i will be just another gain control: instead of a circle ball you have two slide one for temperature and the other for tint.

But its not always that easy and scopes can be useless White balance may not be necessary if you're going for a look.


If you are going for a look the "temperature control" is completely useless then...

they magically achieve something that was a problem


Actually they do not. They will frustrate you even more...

What I learned was, the work that goes into colour correction can be as little or as much as you make it!


That might be true if you have a mom/pop shop with infinite time, that is not true in a big house/studio.

A dear friend of me always say: "the movie is done when you are out of money or time"

And so is for the color correction: if you have 5 days (40 hours) and a 2000 cuts, 1.5 hour show (and this is not a stretch), you have less than a minute for each shot where you have to:

Uniform the color space (if you have a multicamera show/vfx)
balance the shot
apply the look (of the scene)
fix the issue that the shot has (windows/masks and so on)

Then you have to review the scene (at least what, three times?) so for a 1.5 hours movie, playback a scene three time will eat 4.5 hours form your 40 totoal, already you tossed 10% of your time out of the window....

And so forth. I'm with Marc here... Time, feeling, experience.... (and Ballz...)
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostSat Aug 30, 2014 2:41 pm

Marc Wielage wrote:IMDB me.


Marc, actually i was curious to see your IMDB but under "Marc Wielage" nothing came up :( :( :(

edit: I think I found you...
https://pro-labs.imdb.com/name/nm0927392/
Last edited by waltervolpatto on Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostSat Aug 30, 2014 3:20 pm

waltervolpatto wrote:I already stated that Yes a slide it is theoretically possible but it will be wrong at most or vastly misleading at least and i will be just another gain control: instead of a circle ball you have two slide one for temperature and the other for tint.

But its not always that easy and scopes can be useless White balance may not be necessary if you're going for a look.


If you are going for a look the "temperature control" is completely useless then...

they magically achieve something that was a problem


Actually they do not. They will frustrate you even more...

What I learned was, the work that goes into colour correction can be as little or as much as you make it!


That might be true if you have a mom/pop shop with infinite time, that is not true in a big house/studio.

A dear friend of me always say: "the movie is done when you are out of money or time"

And so is for the color correction: if you have 5 days (40 hours) and a 2000 cuts, 1.5 hour show (and this is not a stretch), you have less than a minute for each shot where you have to:

Uniform the color space (if you have a multicamera show/vfx)
balance the shot
apply the look (of the scene)
fix the issue that the shot has (windows/masks and so on)

Then you have to review the scene (at least what, three times?) so for a 1.5 hours movie, playback a scene three time will eat 4.5 hours form your 40 totoal, already you tossed 10% of your time out of the window....

And so forth. I'm with Marc here... Time, feeling, experience.... (and Ballz...)


Okay Walter Seems you just want to disagree with everything I say. I can assure you though I went to a very large colourist boutique who had the very best equipment and took a lot of time over the films he corrected. That's up to you if you think the guy wasn't professional/slow/ or just me making it up. Statements like colour temp white balance tool are not be necessary if going for a look and your reply that means you don't need the tool then is just disingenuous.

So if the conversation has deteriorated into the desire to win instead of opposing the idea of new tools then I'm out. Play on your own.
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostSat Aug 30, 2014 4:10 pm

That's up to you if you think the guy wasn't professional/slow/


That is very far from what I meant/said: isn't me that want to so do a movie in 40 hours, heck, I wish i have months like The Hobbit (one whole year for One movie) where each shot is painstakingly make perfect, but I also have to realize (more so for TV series) that sometimes you do not have the luxury of time when it come down to color grading your project.

Hell, I had to do a movie in 2 and 1/2 days once, and the director was stopping me to put 2/3 masks on every shot until I did the projection of the time that will take to finish and the bill that he was going to get...
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostTue Sep 02, 2014 8:13 pm

I got here your color temperature dial inside Resolve.

Before I give it to you I need to post a disclaimer:

I agree completely with pretty much all what Adam, Walter, and JPO have said so far.

Since you don't start with a RAW image (non color temperature file) a slider will actually make more harm than good.

Making things cooler or warmer is not a real color temperature change.

But since you are wanting it so bad, here it is:

Download a nice pick of a x-rite colorchecker, here is one:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 100423.jpg

I converted it in photoshop to a tiff file

then import it into your media pool and put it into a new video track in your timeline.

on your left side there is the new Resolve 11 tool to do a match color using a color checker.

if you don't know how to use it, refer to the manual.
The pic I got from that website is kinda close to 6500K

so at first you match it with that, then u dial whatever kelvin temperature you like, click match you get the shift desired and then copy that correction to a memory, and paste/apply that memory to the take you want to do a color temperature change., and voila you got in kelvin degrees a "Temperature Change" you can keep dialing in the checker clip, copying it to a memory and pasting it to the take until you get the result you are looking for.

Again, I don't believe a color temperature slider will work, and this is more for illustrative purposes, so you can see for yourself how even dialing in a color temperature on a non raw image actually just cools or warms the image as an overall but it does't correspond to an actual color temperature change.

Go ahead and try it
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostTue Sep 02, 2014 9:20 pm

Caryl

You said yourself it wont work so what's the point?

Do you also think the colour temp tool in Magic Bullet doesn't work either?
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostTue Sep 02, 2014 9:36 pm

Mark Davies wrote:Caryl

You said yourself it wont work so what's the point?

Do you also think the colour temp tool in Magic Bullet doesn't work either?


That in theory works within the limitation described in other posts. Any slider will not work much better than that.

Do you also think the colour temp tool in Magic Bullet doesn't work either?


No, It doesn't as it should, it is nice, but let's stop pretending that those are real kelvins... It does a kinda of warmer/cooler change and that is it...
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostTue Sep 02, 2014 10:53 pm

MB uses an Algorthym to calculate colour temp changes Not just adjusting the blue and red sliders to warm or cool.
MB is a professional tool and used by countless professionals.
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostWed Sep 03, 2014 1:33 am

Mark Davies wrote:MB uses an Algorthym to calculate colour temp changes Not just adjusting the blue and red sliders to warm or cool.
MB is a professional tool and used by countless professionals.

MB makes certain mathematical assumptions and then allows you to slide the color temp warmer or cooler along that assumed path. It's as Walter described, if you're ok with imprecise adjustments that can go quite wrong, then it'll work fine. But it's not the same as a true color temperature adjustment.

The fundamental problem, and the difference between a true raw image and a video encoded image, is that the video encoded image has certain assumptions and modifications "burned" into the image. These unfortunately can't be reversed in a clever way without evaluating the outcome and then compensating for it, ergo, grading the image.
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostWed Sep 03, 2014 2:03 am

Guys, relax

I wrote it in my post, it is for illustrative purposes.

I felt from what I read from the person who started the post that he wanted a slider for color temperature or something that would warm and cool the image kinda like it.

So I wanted to give him and other people who might want to try it, a way to use inside resolve something "like" a color temperature dialer.

Why I said it doesn't work? this or a solution like the plugin from MB? -- lack of precision -- and I would be repeating many of what you all have read from JPO and Walter
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostWed Sep 03, 2014 9:45 am

Look MB Colour temp is a one button tool that agreed may or may not work and if it does Can get you into the ballpark of where you want to be. Quick. Especially with clunky software meant to be used with a control surface and hardware that doesn't work well or to expensive.

Using MB I often just play with the tools experiment Sometimes - bang - a great new look. What's wrong with having a tool you may or may not use or find useful. I use Sony Vegas and don't use half of the gimmicky stuff it can do But I wouldn't ask Sony to remove it and I appreciate others find it useful. It's really weird how some people want to deny others under the guise of I'm a professional Your stupid game. Is a forum really like a computer game where you take opposing sides and throw eggs for fun? People should be supportive and helpful Not full of vitriol putdowns or up themselves. Ask yourself Does it matter to you whether there was tool like this or not Does it matter to you if your fellow users No matter what their level want it? If you support your fellow users then do the grown up thing and be helpful. Now I'll sit back and watch as new ways to undermine ridicule or shut the argument down appear. Somewhere out of the darkness maybe a tool will get made!
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostWed Sep 03, 2014 12:17 pm

I think a tool that is jack or all trades becomes master of none.

Some People do rely on Resolve, solely or mostly, to earn a living, hence of course there will be heated debates. I've always understood Resolve to a be a high end grading tool.

I personally think, easy features that make workflow quicker but less accurate may need to go into another product line rather than clutter what's already there, if BMD want to produce a more prosumer/consumer friendly grading tool that is.

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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostWed Sep 03, 2014 12:36 pm

Jules Bushell wrote:I think a tool that is jack or all trades becomes master of none.

Some People do rely on Resolve, solely or mostly, to earn a living, hence of course there will be heated debates. I've always understood Resolve to a be a high end grading tool.

I personally think, easy features that make workflow quicker but less accurate may need to go into another product line rather than clutter what's already there, if BMD want to produce a more prosumer/consumer friendly grading tool that is.

Jules

That's just awful. Just about everything has something a user wont see as being right for a product. Catering to this kind of elite snobbery would drive prices up on your suggestion of splitting the program in two making it in accessible to those BM are currently giving for free. Looking down on others to elevate yourself is not a good look. How is a simple slider temp tool going to cause to much clutter Or make the product less professional Unless of course you want to redefine the program for an elite only after Black magic made it available to all. Do you think those now using the product will become masters using the clunky colour wheels? Or just go away? Do you think BM should change tack and only cater for those who can afford their over priced work surfaces? Clearly from your comments Sadly you do.
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostWed Sep 03, 2014 3:56 pm

Mark Davies wrote:MB uses an Algorthym to calculate colour temp changes Not just adjusting the blue and red sliders to warm or cool.
MB is a professional tool and used by countless professionals.


BS marketing? Either you know the math behind a color temperature change or you don't, and I can assure you that there is no "magic algorithm" in this planet that can guess those simple 4 elements:

Color space of source/Color space of destination (usually same a source)
tonal mapping
Starting color temperature
Target color temperature

So, it is an approximation. At best.
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostWed Sep 03, 2014 3:57 pm

Caryl Deyn wrote:Guys, relax

I wrote it in my post, it is for illustrative purposes.

I felt from what I read from the person who started the post that he wanted a slider for color temperature or something that would warm and cool the image kinda like it.

So I wanted to give him and other people who might want to try it, a way to use inside resolve something "like" a color temperature dialer.

Why I said it doesn't work? this or a solution like the plugin from MB? -- lack of precision -- and I would be repeating many of what you all have read from JPO and Walter


You approach it is really right in theory......
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostWed Sep 03, 2014 4:23 pm

Hello Walter

if you like I can point out books that explain better why.


Not sure about others, but personally i'd like that!

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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostWed Sep 03, 2014 4:47 pm

jon Joug wrote:I'm OK if you guys wanna "follow the trends (orange/teal) and make money like the other big guys"

I'm OK if you guys wanna sweat all day long on you track-balls.

But please don't insult our intelligence by telling us that we don't need other tools because you don't use them.

There are lots of editors, photographers, Dps, Directors, amateurs etc… who are buying ($999) your software too. BM, it's time to improve your color tools and move into the 21 first century.



I like this Idea (and I'm on Quantel case as well for this)

I will re-design the color workflow in the resolve different then: if you look at NUKE they have a linear light color workflow that (given some input by the client) can correctly transform from one source to another.

Under this realm the color temperature it is somewhat possible. so, I will say, implement the OCIO structure NUKE-LIKE and most of the color transformations will not be just moving "ballz".

Then there is ACES.... Oh Dear.....
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostWed Sep 03, 2014 6:56 pm

Stepan Ko wrote:Hello Walter

if you like I can point out books that explain better why.


Not sure about others, but personally i'd like that!

Stepan



A good comprehensive book about Digital video is:
[Digital video and HD Algorithm and interfaces] by:Charles Poynton
http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Video-Second-Algorithms-Interfaces/dp/0123919266/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1409770588&sr=1-1

Introduction to Color Imaging Science :: Hsien-Che Lee http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0521103134/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1#

For all check the latest edition.
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostThu Sep 04, 2014 11:03 am

A very interesting read.

I like the FEWEST tools in any software that will do the job. Modifying the colour balance on non-RAW files is NOT a colour temperature adjustment, as explained by others here. I don't want another bit of software that suffers from feature-bloat and has controls that are effectively redundant. Asking for these kind of features reminds me of the kind of pre-rolled effects that come with editing software. I never use them and they clutter my effects browser.

Understanding what's going on 'under the hood' and arming oneself with knowledge of how these file formats and codecs work is the true way to get the best out of any video software.

There's nothing wrong with asking....
...but don't get upset when you don't like the answer.
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostThu Sep 04, 2014 1:42 pm

Peter Cave wrote:A very interesting read.

I like the FEWEST tools in any software that will do the job. Modifying the colour balance on non-RAW files is NOT a colour temperature adjustment, as explained by others here.


I think we all know this tool would not be a true colour adjustment BUT then neither would ANY colourist no matter how talented be a true colour temp adjustment. So that's a bit misleading

If there were such a tool that could get you in the ballpark quickly then only a fool or elitist would see it as bloatware. Magic Bullet has such a tool. Do you also put Magic bullet into the bloatware or maybe amateur category?
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostThu Sep 04, 2014 5:50 pm

Now reset the Raw color temperature slider to its default 5600K and try to match the color (a real match, not good enough match).
It won't mach or if it does, it will take a very longtime to get there.


Well...Assuming that you're working in Video with no lut and that the RAW math in RED is correct, I will do one node that work like that:

1) 1D lut in that does the 1/2.4 gamma bt1886 to linear light
2) a gain ball movement to match (with the RGB math, not the YRGB math)
3) 1D lut out to put back the 2.4 gamma bt1886.

(you can easily generate those LUT in NUKE PLE edition)

That works because you have the implicit tonal range+ color space in/out.

And It works because is not the first time I did it.....and it does not take much time either.
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostThu Sep 04, 2014 9:25 pm

I am tired of LUTs are the answer for everything


ok, you do not like LUTs.. (apologies for that)
LUT is math. So, let's use pure math:

1) set a gamma in the node 1 as 1/2.4=0.4166666
2) do your balls adjustment on node 2
3) set the gamma to 2.4 on node 3

Better?

(no LUT needed)
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostThu Sep 04, 2014 9:49 pm

I'm curious - the SR footage (not RAW) from the F5 is allowed to have its white balance changed in the Sony SR Viewer program. It's not as accurate as doing the same thing with RAW footage - similar the new Film Convert WB tool it adds a bit of color you don't want. Still, I feel like this kind of tool would be helpful to get a quick start on WB correction in Resolve. If other programs can give you this kind of tool, I see no reason why Resolve couldn't be able to do it.
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostThu Sep 04, 2014 10:00 pm

Chris Parente wrote:I'm curious - the SR footage (not RAW) from the F5 is allowed to have its white balance changed in the Sony SR Viewer program. It's not as accurate as doing the same thing with RAW footage - similar the new Film Convert WB tool it adds a bit of color you don't want. Still, I feel like this kind of tool would be helpful to get a quick start on WB correction in Resolve. If other programs can give you this kind of tool, I see no reason why Resolve couldn't be able to do it.


Chris, as stated in several occasions, the tool it is doable, just will be done with the understanding that is very imprecise: only under some set conditions will do what you asked for.

Once the tool is build the next thing that will happen, there will be users complaining that it does not match RAW or it does not behave like Sony/MB or [insert your favorite software here].

And we already have an un-precise tool (the gamma ball control...).

So, there are two debates going on here:

a) one is the factuality of the tool itself, and it is a yes under certain conditions.
b) those conditions will never get met in real life most of the times therefore the tool might be redundant/misleading.

those conditions are:
1) Known tonal mapping of the light
2) Known of the mapping of the primaries of the color space in/out
3) Known of the color temperature that a shot has been shot at
4) ---> the new color temperature.



My personal position is: I agree that the tool is doable. I disagree in making a misleading tool instead of spend time to work on other areas of the software (Like a comprehensive Color Space Management like OCIO) that will actually make the tool more doable and less misleading.
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostFri Sep 05, 2014 12:15 am

jon Joug wrote:
waltervolpatto wrote:
I am tired of LUTs are the answer for everything


ok, you do not like LUTs.. (apologies for that)
LUT is math. So, let's use pure math:

1) set a gamma in the node 1 as 1/2.4=0.4166666
2) do your balls adjustment on node 2
3) set the gamma to 2.4 on node 3

Better?

(no LUT needed)

It's almost the same as profiling the QTs at 1.0 gamma linear and rendering back in HDTV rec 709 ( better way, more elegant)….


Not really: you have no real idea of what QT is doing and with all the gamma issue reported i will not thrust it, but as general concept it is a good one.
Remember the math in Resolve (for that shot) need to be RGB, not YRGB
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostFri Sep 05, 2014 8:35 am

waltervolpatto wrote:
I disagree in making a misleading tool instead of spend time to work on other areas of the software.


You are the one who is misleading. Human eye or skill can't change the colour temperature in this scenario either, so its all approximation. A tool can get you halfway or sometimes all the way to where the human eye can finish off. Sometimes it can save time. Time is money.

Glad to know that your reason for not wanting this tool is because it takes BM away from the areas you want improved like colour spaces.

Should those NOT working in different colour spaces adopt your attitude?
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostFri Sep 05, 2014 4:52 pm

Mark Davies wrote:
waltervolpatto wrote:
I disagree in making a misleading tool instead of spend time to work on other areas of the software.


You are the one who is misleading. Human eye or skill can't change the color temperature in this scenario either, so its all approximation. A tool can get you halfway or sometimes all the way to where the human eye can finish off. Sometimes it can save time. Time is money.

Glad to know that your reason for not wanting this tool is because it takes BM away from the areas you want improved like colour spaces.

Should those NOT working in different colour spaces adopt your attitude?


Mark, let me elaborate.

in the way the current software works, the tool will be un-precise/un-relaiable, if you have a proper color space manager in place (i use OCIO/nuke because it is an example of good implementation), the tool requested will actually be good and usable, because the math will make sense.

In ACES theoretically the tool will also work because the data is mapped in a way where the tool will work.

so, i'm not against the tool itself, I'm for a correct implementation. At the current stage it will be not implemented correctly.
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostFri Sep 05, 2014 5:23 pm

Walter, That sounds good to me!
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostSat Sep 06, 2014 6:30 pm

jon Joug wrote:
I'm aware that a lots of people have not figured out the QT gamma issue but not here. I'm able to have a perfect match and see the Qts though out all the applications I use, the way the clients will see it, until delivery and beyond ( beyond as long as the clients don't mess with it ).


I am yet to figure out the QT gamma issue. Can anyone elucidate this please, how to arrive at a "perfect match and see the QTs through all the applications I use, the way the clients will see it"? Using QT player, QT player 7, VLC?

Would be grateful.
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostSat Oct 11, 2014 2:31 am

jon Joug wrote:Color Temperature Slider


jon Joug, what do your posts mean?
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostSat Oct 11, 2014 5:40 pm

Peter Cave wrote:jon Joug, what do your posts mean?


Its a troll to attract hits. ie Lady Gaga

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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostSat Oct 11, 2014 9:54 pm

Wow, this thread is still going?

I just finished a movie where every so often, I did have to dive into the camera raw files and make a specific color temperature adjustment (sometimes with an ISO adjustment as well). In this particular case, I was dealing with raw files and the material was just shot wrong (no compensation filter) or dark (not enough illumination available). What was interesting is that I could get pretty close to the same look with the normal LGG / log controls, but it took a little bit of work. Once I had a look, I could copy it and recall it with no problem.

I think a lot of this boils down to: if you're forced to deal with non-camera raw files, make sure the people preparing the material has given you files that have enough range to work with. If they're already crushed, clipped, or slammed in the wrong color direction (or all of the above), then it's never going to look right. They need to first do a "ballpark" correction with a LOG -> LIN LUT or something like that and get it to a better starting point. If they don't, they have to accept the consequences. Once the images have been "pre-distorted," this limits the available options in color correction.
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostWed Dec 17, 2014 9:05 am

By the way: I found out that there is a way to limit the primary controls to just the warm-cool axis. You get it, if you set a node to LAB mode and enable just channel 3 (channel 1 is luminance, channel 2 is green-magenta). If you now move the master adjustment of any of the color wheels it is only happening along this axis.

An easy way to test if this is really a whitebalance adjustment, is to use a RAW file of a RAW capable camera and compare the LAB control with the the provided whitebalance RAW tools in DaVinci. Of course this will be different for every camera.
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostWed Dec 17, 2014 4:28 pm

Gerhard Riesenhuber wrote:By the way: I found out that there is a way to limit the primary controls to just the warm-cool axis. You get it, if you set a node to LAB mode and enable just channel 3 (channel 1 is luminance, channel 2 is green-magenta). If you now move the master adjustment of any of the color wheels it is only happening along this axis.

An easy way to test if this is really a whitebalance adjustment, is to use a RAW file of a RAW capable camera and compare the LAB control with the the provided whitebalance RAW tools in DaVinci. Of course this will be different for every camera.


If the LAB mode is in linear light then yes is a white balance, if it is log or gamma encoded, then not really.... (but close...)
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostWed Dec 17, 2014 4:55 pm

Does work Resolve internally in linear light? (I guess not..)
Although in ACES it should work in linear light, or is it also encoded differently?
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostWed Dec 17, 2014 10:26 pm

Gerhard Riesenhuber wrote:Does work Resolve internally in linear light? (I guess not..)
Although in ACES it should work in linear light, or is it also encoded differently?


No, it does not.

ACES will be closer... but still is not a perfect math...
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostThu Dec 18, 2014 7:45 am

Thanks Walter for the info!
Are there any good documents on this topic, also regarding internal processing in Resolve.
I know there are a lot out there, which one would you recommend?
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostThu Dec 18, 2014 7:55 am

Art Adams did an excellent column about the problems of shooting at non-native color temperature in general at this link:

http://www.dvinfo.net/article/ultra-hd/ ... rence.html

I think Art brought up some very valid points, and it led to a lengthy discussion on LiftGammaGain:

http://liftgammagain.com/forum/index.ph ... ight.3809/
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostThu Dec 18, 2014 8:11 am

Thanks Marc for the interesting links, I'll dig into them!

Though I originally looked for links for the internal processing of a grading system and different encoding and the like :-)

EDIT: I see that there are some nuggets about this topic in the LiftGammaGain thread :-)
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostThu Dec 18, 2014 5:29 pm

RufusBlackwell wrote:I understand that you can use the other controls to mimic, but it's not the same as having a colour temp slider.
Colour temp control is simply shifting the rgb values in a particular way so why can't the same control be applied to a DPX for example?

So my specific question is: "What are the technical reasons why this cannot be done?


Rufus;

No technical reasons, Nucoda, Flame, DS and many others offer this tool somewhere in their UI's… these are only the tools i know well enough to recall the tools, even tho i almost never touch them… from hazy memory similar tools exist in Baselight and Mystika

The maths in Nucoda, Flame and DS are pretty simple;
B up - R & G down with combed values matching .. so B up 50% then G down 25%, R down 25%, and call that a kelvin colour temp slider

Do the same with G and call it the mired slider

They can clip & crush an image pretty quickly tho, at least Flame offers a luma slider to adjust that directly inside that operator, in Nucoda and DS you have to adjust for clipped/crushed channels before or after the "colour temp' operator

Although i have had these tools for a few decades now, i rarely use them… seems mainly dailies folks use them in my experience

I do not miss them in Resolve what so ever, not even a tiny bit when finishing a show from DPX, DNx, ProRez, H.264 or whatever the cat dragged in through the door…

I tried Gerhard's idea abut LAB… when compared to DS and Nucoda (hav'nt touched a Flame for years) by using a linear gradient and external scopes i see very similar (but not identical) changes on screen.. so yea, there ya go.. use LAB for colour temp sliders and watch out for clipping/crushing

I'll probably file it away in my brain somewhere distant…
Last edited by Dermot Shane on Thu Dec 18, 2014 6:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostThu Dec 18, 2014 6:19 pm

I have not read this entire thread, but I want to thank everyone for the discussion and for referring me to FilmConvert. I just now bought a copy and am looking forward to testing it.

I shoot a lot of "guerrilla" documentary work in very chaotic "existing lighting" situations on C100 and 5D, and having a simple horizontal Color Temperature slider would be (in theory) a huge help for me, regardless of the lack of RAW metadata. I don't need to know if it's 4100K or 2650K, etc. I just need to get the skin tones back to acceptable.

Being able to use it as a plugin in Premiere should also be nice.

But we shall see if it works!

Thanks again everyone.

-Carl.
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostThu Dec 18, 2014 6:46 pm

Annnnnnddddddd...

It doesn't work.

:)

-Carl.
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostThu Dec 18, 2014 8:01 pm

Carl King wrote:I have not read this entire thread, but I want to thank everyone for the discussion and for referring me to FilmConvert. I just now bought a copy and am looking forward to testing it.

I shoot a lot of "guerrilla" documentary work in very chaotic "existing lighting" situations on C100 and 5D, and having a simple horizontal Color Temperature slider would be (in theory) a huge help for me, regardless of the lack of RAW metadata. I don't need to know if it's 4100K or 2650K, etc. I just need to get the skin tones back to acceptable.

Being able to use it as a plugin in Premiere should also be nice.

But we shall see if it works!

Thanks again everyone.

-Carl.


NO, sorry, it will not work.

(edit: ninja'd)
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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostThu Dec 18, 2014 9:45 pm

Carl King wrote:I don't need to know if it's 4100K or 2650K, etc. I just need to get the skin tones back to acceptable.


I can sympathize, I don't care either, but its not a one-button white balance world, which you can probably confirm especially if you are working elsewhere on the grey-scale, because it really is trivial to make R=G=B= 0/100 black/white balance. Click.

Except for when the exposure is really hooped, or there is some other cross-illumination which means there might not be a dominant illuminant, or, there's a really inconvenient one. OR, missing-spectrum.

Its true, there are plenty of applications that offer a knob that slides the balance between roughly the values corresponding to 6500 and that at 3200... but also as stated previously, that doesn't actually change the color temperature, but the RGB balance. There is a difference. If an application wants to do the math right, then what really needs to happen is something more like a 3D LUT transform.

The reason is that most people look at the CIE chromaticity diagram and see a simple triangle... but that 2-D representation is somewhat misleading in that it is not luminosity-compensated. If you want to wander the white point around.... Dermot touches on this. In 3D, with luminosity plotted on a Z-axis, the triangle becomes a soft little hill (reminds me of something... oh, I don't know...) where the so-called Planckian locus slaloms down the slope... this track is a lot more complex in the real world, where the idealized CIE model is only an approximation. Note that the standard 'CIE' representation printed always has "white" in the center of the chromaticity plot. Ever wondered where "black" or the in-between grey scale was, relative to that surface?

Its not really some statement of genetic superiority or whatever to generally observe that an experienced colorist will have learned how to navigate all of this using that amazing processor generally found between their ears. That LUT is already there, like some kind of benevolent tumor.

Like Mariano Rivera could pitch that cut-slider without thinking about it? Just throw it.

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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostSun Dec 21, 2014 6:28 pm

A nice visualization of the XYZ Colorspace and the CIE chromaticity diagram:

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Re: Why Can't You Have a Colour Temp Slider for Non-Raw File

PostMon Dec 22, 2014 12:25 am

JPOwens wrote:Its not really some statement of genetic superiority or whatever to generally observe that an experienced colorist will have learned how to navigate all of this using that amazing processor generally found between their ears. That LUT is already there, like some kind of benevolent tumor.

Ah, a new colorist T-shirt:

I have a built-in LUT inside my head. It's like a benevolent tumor.
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