Moire with intensity shuttle thundebolt

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Gordian Miller

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Moire with intensity shuttle thundebolt

PostFri Jan 30, 2015 2:26 pm

I have a strange problem with two intensity shuttle thunderbolt, which I am using on two new imac i5 quad under mavericks. I am running desktop video 10.3.4.

Both units are producing a strange kind of interference pattern in the picture. It is like some highfrequency is interferring. I use the original and new Apple thunderbolt cables.

It is definitely not the source and not the cabling. I have tried several sources including pattern generator, camera, and analog vtr's… always the same. The moire (pattern) is relatively stable and mostly diagonal lines.
I tried both of the two imacs with the Thundebolt Shuttle only. No other peripherie! Unfortunately there is no change - it shows this kind of moire- pattern all the time.

The pattern shows in the preview of media express (and of course the recorded files) and also in the monitoring connected to the video output of the intensity shuttle.

Has anyone an idea where this interferences can come from? Thanks for any hint.
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Colin Barrett

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Re: Moire with intensity shuttle thundebolt

PostMon Feb 02, 2015 6:47 pm

I have experienced exactly the same problem before, but only on occasions. I assumed that it was local RF interference but I could never isolate it. Most times it would go within an hour or two. I never did find out the cause though!
Blackmagic Teranex 2D, Ultrastudio Express, Intensity Shuttle (Thunderbolt), Two H.264 Pro Recorders (Mac OSX) & lots of old VTRs used for digital archiving of legacy video formats for major libraries, broadcasters, universities and public archives.
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Tony Rivera

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Re: Moire with intensity shuttle thundebolt

PostMon Feb 02, 2015 11:15 pm

Can you post a picture of what you're seeing and the settings you have for capture and the sources resolutions/framerates?
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Gordian Miller

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Re: Moire with intensity shuttle thundebolt

PostWed Feb 11, 2015 6:28 pm

This Interference thing really grows to something serious. We have recently installed 4 new capture places for analog video, as VHS and Hi8 etc. We have bought 2 pcs. intensity shuttle USB, and 2 pcs. intensity shuttle thunderbolt. We use two imacs i5-quad (2013) for the thunderbolt interfaces and two macminis i5-core duo (2013) for the USB interfaces. All computers have mavericks installed and Desktop Video 10.3.4. The computers are in different rooms in our company location where a couple of other BMD devices are working on MacPro's or MacMini's or iMac's.

The problems with interferences (moire) occur on all recently bought installations. We tried to swap interfaces, cables and even computers and locations… nothing helps. We even bought a replacement intensity shuttle thunderbolt… but also on this interface we have the moire- problem.

The interferences are not visible all the time. Sometimes it is more, and sometimes it is not at all. But You never know when the interferences occur, so capturing is not possible at all, with not one of the newly purchased capture stations.

We are completely confused and have no further idea where the problem could come from, as on our other workstations we do NOT have any quality issues or interferences.

There is one very special thing. We have a intensity shuttle thunderbolt interface which works, and has no interferences. It is a device with the serial number 202XXXX. Our other thunderbolt interfaces, which produce the moire have serial nr. 215xxxx.

We are capturing in PAL, through the Y/C input in 720x576 prores422, 25fps. The interference moire is visible in the capture window of media express AND in the preview out of the shuttle interface, and of course in the recorded material.
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bmd_cap_interference.png
interference pattern
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Tony Rivera

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Re: Moire with intensity shuttle thundebolt

PostWed Feb 11, 2015 8:57 pm

At this point, with the details you've given, I would suggest reaching out the our UK office to setup a RMA for at least one of these devices. The contact info is in my signature below on the company tab.
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Colin Barrett

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Re: Moire with intensity shuttle thundebolt

PostThu Feb 12, 2015 1:41 pm

Gordian, this is exactly the visual symptom that I have had on my Shuttle over Thunderbolt, although as I have mentioned above this is intermittent.
Blackmagic Teranex 2D, Ultrastudio Express, Intensity Shuttle (Thunderbolt), Two H.264 Pro Recorders (Mac OSX) & lots of old VTRs used for digital archiving of legacy video formats for major libraries, broadcasters, universities and public archives.
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Gordian Miller

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Re: Moire with intensity shuttle thundebolt

PostSat Feb 14, 2015 11:43 am

Here some News regarding the Moiré - Problems with Intensity Shuttle Interfaces:
We have tested all Inputs and found, that HDMI and Component Inputs do NOT have any problems ! It's a clean, stable picture. - But Composite and SVHS Input definitely produce the interference pattern (Moiré).

This is the same on all our Shuttle USB and Shuttle Thunderbolt Interfaces.
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Gordian Miller

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Re: Moire with intensity shuttle thundebolt

PostTue Feb 24, 2015 9:18 am

we still have the same interference problems on our Intensity Shuttle Interfaces. Neither the support of our dealer, nor the Blackmagic support could give us an answer. I become a little bit desperate, as we got the problem also on an USB interface. What shall I do?
Any hint is really appreciated.
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USB_shuttle_moire.jpg
Interference of today on a Shuttle USB on a MacMini Mavericks
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Colin Barrett

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Re: Moire with intensity shuttle thundebolt

PostWed Feb 25, 2015 11:41 am

Gordian, it's obviously not much consolation to you in my saying that this is exactly the same symptom as I have encountered on my Shuttle when processing Component and Composite inputs on occasions - even when the input signals have been timebase corrected via a broadcast-spec TBC. Pre-Shuttle pictures are fine, but post-Shuttle images have displayed these annoying characteristics. As I have said above, it's intermittent. One day it's there, the next day it isn't!!

Weird. Perhaps a specific manufacturing batch was affected? Mine was purchased in the UK in April 2012.
Blackmagic Teranex 2D, Ultrastudio Express, Intensity Shuttle (Thunderbolt), Two H.264 Pro Recorders (Mac OSX) & lots of old VTRs used for digital archiving of legacy video formats for major libraries, broadcasters, universities and public archives.
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Gordian Miller

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Re: Moire with intensity shuttle thundebolt

PostFri Feb 27, 2015 9:01 am

thank You @colin barret for Your supporting posting. - We bought our interfaces within the last months from different suppliers. So the serial numbers differ quite a bit. I am not sure whether the problem is just on a certain manufacturing batch.
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Gordian Miller

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Re: Moire with intensity shuttle thundebolt

PostTue Mar 31, 2015 10:55 am

the problems with the interferences on the intensity shuttle interfaces on Mac remain. After intensive research we have found that the interference patterns in the picture occurs on all our shuttle interfaces (USB and Thunderbolt), as soon as a Y/C or Composite source is connected. The pattern is not visible all the time . It comes and goes. But when the interface is cold, the pattern is much less, than if the interface is warm, resp. some hours in use. You can trigger the "interference moiré" when You toggle between Playback and Capture in Media-Express. Suddenly it's visible. You also can restart the media-express application and the moire disappears for some minutes. The interference problem is not there when you connect the source via Component or HDMI.

We did try the interfaces at different places, different sources, even on other Mac's in other locations …always the same. The problem remains.

Unfortunately the BMD support could not yet help us because they "did not have a Mac to test… ?!? We feel left alone with this problem, although we have this "reproducable error" on 6 pcs of USB and thunderbolt shuttle interfaces with OSX Mavericks.
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Colin Barrett

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Re: Moire with intensity shuttle thundebolt

PostTue Mar 31, 2015 5:42 pm

It would appear that several of us users have experienced this problem on more than one occasion!

Blackmagic please take note.
Blackmagic Teranex 2D, Ultrastudio Express, Intensity Shuttle (Thunderbolt), Two H.264 Pro Recorders (Mac OSX) & lots of old VTRs used for digital archiving of legacy video formats for major libraries, broadcasters, universities and public archives.
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Tony Rivera

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Re: Moire with intensity shuttle thundebolt

PostTue Mar 31, 2015 6:22 pm

Have you tried the most recent version of Desktop Video available on the support page? I don't know for certain that this will correct the issue you're having but it would not hurt to attempt.
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Colin Barrett

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Re: Moire with intensity shuttle thundebolt

PostWed Apr 01, 2015 11:02 am

Tony Rivera wrote:Have you tried the most recent version of Desktop Video available on the support page? I don't know for certain that this will correct the issue you're having but it would not hurt to attempt.


I don't think it will make any difference, to be honest. It does appear to be a firmware problem within the unit itself. It's odd though because it's intermittent. I did think of getting it uplifted by my dealer (Jigsaw24 in Nottingham) but I knew full well that once they had it back the Shuttle would work perfectly!
Blackmagic Teranex 2D, Ultrastudio Express, Intensity Shuttle (Thunderbolt), Two H.264 Pro Recorders (Mac OSX) & lots of old VTRs used for digital archiving of legacy video formats for major libraries, broadcasters, universities and public archives.
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Roger Leeson

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Re: Moire with intensity shuttle thundebolt

PostFri May 22, 2015 9:25 am

I have the same problem but it never goes, its always there! - its happened on both the intensity pro and shuttle on windows 7.

I've done everything to try to isolate the problem and even purchased a humbucking/isolator device which has not solved it.

I'm getting superior clean images going directly through a dv deck as an anlogue to digital converter, however i bought this card to do uncompressed and other formats to clients specs.

Its most dissapointing that Black Magic dont seem to aknowledge that these devices have issues and are far from spec for the uses it was advertised and for which we purchased them.

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John Lock

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Re: Moire with intensity shuttle thundebolt

PostFri Mar 04, 2016 11:44 pm

Hi, appreciate this an older post, but curious if any of you resolved the issue?

I am dealing with the same symptoms/noise on the S-video & Composite inputs of my Thunderbolt Shuttle going into a MacBook Pro. It's there pretty much all the time, though sometimes seems worse than others.

Tried a mains power line conditioner, humbucking noise filter & using difference laptops, and nothing has helped. All software is up to date. Concluded the problem is likely the Shuttle itself, which has brought me here.

Thanks, J..
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Colin Barrett

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Re: Moire with intensity shuttle thundebolt

PostSat Mar 05, 2016 12:45 pm

John Lock wrote:Concluded the problem is likely the Shuttle itself, which has brought me here.


Yes, given the fact that we've all experienced exactly the same problem but in different hardware configurations, I think it's safe to assume that the unit itself has an inbuilt fault.
Blackmagic Teranex 2D, Ultrastudio Express, Intensity Shuttle (Thunderbolt), Two H.264 Pro Recorders (Mac OSX) & lots of old VTRs used for digital archiving of legacy video formats for major libraries, broadcasters, universities and public archives.
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Billy Blair

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Re: Moire with intensity shuttle thundebolt

PostTue Jun 28, 2016 8:06 pm

I've been getting the same issues with the USB 3.0 version. Ive made a new thread for it...

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49516
Attachments
nothing.png
With nothing plugged in
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small-lines-darker.png
Drew red lines to show direction
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large-lines-darker.png
Drew red lines to show direction
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Massimiliano Celindano

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Re: Moire with intensity shuttle thundebolt

PostThu Apr 27, 2017 3:00 pm

Hi all, I'm having the same issues even with Intensity Pro 4k.

Since your last post, 2 firmware updates and various software updates have been developed and released up to the actual 10.9 but the problem still there (see the attachments below). By the way, Component input is issue-exempt but is still darker than expected.


S-Video input
S-Video.png
S-Video.png (483.33 KiB) Viewed 2186 times



Composite input
Composite.png
Composite.png (467.04 KiB) Viewed 2186 times



Component input
Component.png
Component.png (429.14 KiB) Viewed 2186 times



Now, we all use different systems (Windows, MacOS) with different products (Intensity Pro, Intensity Pro 4k, Intensity Shuttle USB and Thunderbolt), with different firmware/software and bought them at different time and from different places but they are all affected by the same symptoms. Changing USB/Thunderbolt/PCIE ports and sockets gave no results, as well.

I won't believe it's a hardware bug, it would be regrettable. I hope BM will ward off this and will fix it asap.
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Colin Barrett

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Re: Moire with intensity shuttle thundebolt

PostMon May 01, 2017 7:38 pm

A few weeks ago the system on which the Intensity Shuttle has been used was given an Ultrastudio Express instead. I've put the Shuttle back in its box on the shelf. I have other Blackmagic video capture devices and none of them display the fault. I wish I'd taken the advice of a fellow professional and bought the Ultrastudio Express to begin with!

It doesn't matter which version of Desktop Video is installed, the problem remains. Not good!
Blackmagic Teranex 2D, Ultrastudio Express, Intensity Shuttle (Thunderbolt), Two H.264 Pro Recorders (Mac OSX) & lots of old VTRs used for digital archiving of legacy video formats for major libraries, broadcasters, universities and public archives.
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Massimiliano Celindano

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Re: Moire with intensity shuttle thundebolt

PostMon May 01, 2017 10:52 pm

As far as you aware, Ultrastudio Express is only Thunderbolt-powered? You know, I've got an old Windows-based PC with no Thunderbolt port. It would be a pity.
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Colin Barrett

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Re: Moire with intensity shuttle thundebolt

PostWed May 03, 2017 12:30 pm

Massimiliano Celindano wrote:As far as you aware, Ultrastudio Express is only Thunderbolt-powered? You know, I've got an old Windows-based PC with no Thunderbolt port. It would be a pity.


Yes, to my knowledge it's only Thunderbolt powered.
Blackmagic Teranex 2D, Ultrastudio Express, Intensity Shuttle (Thunderbolt), Two H.264 Pro Recorders (Mac OSX) & lots of old VTRs used for digital archiving of legacy video formats for major libraries, broadcasters, universities and public archives.
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Massimiliano Celindano

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Re: Moire with intensity shuttle thundebolt

PostWed May 03, 2017 8:05 pm

As I suspected. Thanks.
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Re: Moire with intensity shuttle thundebolt

PostMon Oct 02, 2017 11:09 pm

Thank you for posting about this! I have (2) Thunderbolt versions and (1) USB3 version. I am experiencing the EXACT symptoms on the Thunderbolt (I'll have to try the USB version).

**I called Blackmagic today and the tech said they'd never heard of this before** - the guy pretty much treated me like I was crazy. Originally, I thought it was my VCR, but later today I plugged in a DVD recorder going straight to a monitor and also feeding directly into the Shuttle and only the Shuttle displayed the interference issues where the output to a monitor was rock solid. I'm going in Y/C so I'll have to try the component option to see if it changes things. I've tried MULTIPLE TBC's...different cables...3 different machines and they ALL exhibit this behavior...which led me back to the only common thing being the Shuttle.

Thanks for at least giving me other options to try as it's DEFINITELY there on Y/C & Composite. As aggravating as it is...I'm glad to see I'm not alone.
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Steve Fishwick

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Re: Moire with intensity shuttle thundebolt

PostMon Oct 09, 2017 11:48 am

The example from Billy Blair looks like classic ground loop issues, more difficult to correct than audio issues. With laptops for example if you disconnect the psu and run on battery the audio hum usually disappear, but not very practical in this instance, with full bandwidth power throughput required, and in any case it appears most experiencing this issue are using desktops. I don't know if I can link yet but here is a further explanation of the issue with similar looking images:

http://www.epanorama.net/documents/grou ... ation.html

The curious thing about the other instances is that component analogue seems to be clean, there is obviously a comb filter issue of some kind but I would still be looking at the ground loop scenario first. I have not much analogue capture with my Shuttle and I don't have a source at hand but I may try to capture some telly to see if it's there.

There are products out there for the this issue with video but at the quality end they tend to be pricey and only composite:

https://www.keene.co.uk/av-distribution ... ormer.html

You could test for ground loop by putting on headphones and listening to the audio if it's present there then it may indicate being present in the video signal too. The Shuttle contains quite a good Cirrius Logic audio A/D D/A codec and this could pass on any ground loop interference the the rest of the circuit, but that's a suposition.
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DavidGray

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Re: Moire with intensity shuttle thundebolt

PostSat Nov 18, 2017 10:41 pm

Update: I ended up switching over the Ultra Express...and the signal is perfect. CLEARLY the issue is with the SHUTTLE version as I saw the issue across every single computer.

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