Using DeckLink Mini Monitor in PP WS for 10bit Monitor

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apriladams

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Using DeckLink Mini Monitor in PP WS for 10bit Monitor

PostTue Jan 24, 2017 10:29 am

Hello everyone,

independent filmmaker on a budget here, looking to build a Windows Editing Workstation for Premiere Pro. Apologies in advance for this total basic question, but I couldn't really find an answer online.

Now, I got one of your nice BMPCCs which does recorde 10bit ProRes (or even 12bit RAW), so now I'm looking into an affordable 10bit editing solution.

I settled on the BenQ PG2401PT monitor which does have a 10bit panel. But to take advantage of that, you need your computer to output 10 bit, right? You can of course do that with a quadro, but they are very expensive. But I've heard, that you can apparently use a much cheaper GeForce GTX for playback and render in 10bit and then a DeckLink Mini Monitor to output 10bit... so I have two questions:

1. If I build a Windows PC, put in a GTX 1070 and a DeckLink Mini Monitor, will that work for 10 bit output?

2. Does that output translate over HDMI to the BenQ PG2401PT?
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Using DeckLink Mini Monitor in PP WS for 10bit Monitor

PostTue Jan 24, 2017 5:51 pm

Output over Decklink card will be 10bit. Just make sure your monitor does support 10bit over HDMI, as some don't (even if the do over DP port).
Resolve GUI preview on PC is always 8bit.
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Erik Wittbusch

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Re: Using DeckLink Mini Monitor in PP WS for 10bit Monitor

PostTue Jan 24, 2017 8:04 pm

FYI:
To work with 10bit footage, you don't need 10bit monitoring. It does make sense for 10bit finishing or grading jobs but not really for editing.

The benefit of 10bit footage is that you can work with the footage in post much better than with 8bit footage.

I'd think forget 10bit monitoring. Your Benq will only accept 10bit via DisplayPort.
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Jack Fairley

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Re: Using DeckLink Mini Monitor in PP WS for 10bit Monitor

PostTue Jan 24, 2017 8:06 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Output over Decklink card will be 10bit. Just make sure your monitor does support 10bit over HDMI, as some don't (even if the do over DP port).
Resolve GUI preview on PC is always 8bit.

Unless you are using a workstation graphics card (Quadro), only exclusive fullscreen DX11 applications (games) can be displayed as 10-bit. Even if Resolve gui was 10-bit using a Quadro card it would be a moot point, since color management would not be bypassed.
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apriladams

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Re: Using DeckLink Mini Monitor in PP WS for 10bit Monitor

PostTue Jan 24, 2017 9:34 pm

To all of you, thank you very much for your quick and informative replies!

So I guess I'll get a Quadro and the BenQ way down the line when TV manufacturers finally decide to forget about their stupid 3D and get on with widespread adoption of Rec. 2020.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Using DeckLink Mini Monitor in PP WS for 10bit Monitor

PostTue Jan 24, 2017 10:16 pm

Jack Fairley wrote:
Andrew Kolakowski wrote:Output over Decklink card will be 10bit. Just make sure your monitor does support 10bit over HDMI, as some don't (even if the do over DP port).
Resolve GUI preview on PC is always 8bit.

Unless you are using a workstation graphics card (Quadro), only exclusive fullscreen DX11 applications (games) can be displayed as 10-bit. Even if Resolve gui was 10-bit using a Quadro card it would be a moot point, since color management would not be bypassed.


I just said that Resolve GUI preview is always 8bit on PC atm. Nothing more.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Using DeckLink Mini Monitor in PP WS for 10bit Monitor

PostTue Jan 24, 2017 10:21 pm

apriladams wrote:To all of you, thank you very much for your quick and informative replies!

So I guess I'll get a Quadro and the BenQ way down the line when TV manufacturers finally decide to forget about their stupid 3D and get on with widespread adoption of Rec. 2020.


I think you came with wrong conclusions.

It's BM Mimi Monitor (which is fairly cheap) which gives you 10bit monitoring out of Resolve and Premiere. This is regardless of GPU type. Don't buy Quadro as they are very expensive and won't give you any real advantage over GTX 10x.
Just make sure you get good HDMI->DP converter so it properly bypass 10bit signals. Use BenQ as your full screen preview monitor (for Premiere or Resolve) connected to BM Mini over HDMI->DP converter. Buy cheap e.g. Dell monitor for GUI.
update: BenQ website says- DisplayPort, HDMI: 1.07 billion from a palette of 4.4 trillion -this suggests you should not need converter.
As far as this may be good print monitor, I can't say it's a good choice for video at all. There are many missing features for video and I would look for other model- maybe one of the latest Dells, e.g. http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/prod ... u=210-AGGP

It has decent reviews and it has very video orientated features, including Rec.709, P3 gamut presets. Here is review, which shows very decent results, even for factory settings:

https://pcmonitors.info/reviews/dell-up2716d/

Other way is to keep fairly cheap GUI monitor and buy TV instead of BenQ for video preview.
Full screen accurate video preview is a good thing and BM Mini Monitor will provide you this.

You may forget about Rec.2020 for quite a time. This is just theory for now and it will take long time until consumer displays will fully support it. If you ever buy TV then make sure it covers P3 color space as this is current/emerging consumer standard.
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apriladams

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Re: Using DeckLink Mini Monitor in PP WS for 10bit Monitor

PostWed Jan 25, 2017 3:57 pm

Alright, so this isn't over :D

Regarding GPU choice:
Okay, so do I understand this correctly:
I buy a GeForce 10xx card, not a Quadro.
I plug my two cheap GUI-monitors into the GeForce but the grading monitor into the DeckLink Mini Monitor.
And somehow (I really don't understand how), the Mini Monitor interfaces with the GeForce over PCIe and gives me 10bit output?
Is that how the Mini Monitor works?

Regarding Monitor choice:
Greatly appreciate the input on monitor choice, but you don't know the full story yet.
This monitor came recommended by a blog post from colorist David Torcivia (davidtorcivia DOT com/spring-2016-entry-level-monitors-roundup/)(You'll have to assemble that URL yourself, I'm not allowed to post URLs), aimed at filmmakers who want to improve their color grading but not become a colorist.
I chose it because besides filmmaking, I also do photography, webdesign and printdesign and the 99% Adobe RGB as well as CMYK color would come in handy for that.
However, it also does Rec.709, even out of the box:
tomshardware DOT com/reviews/benq-pg2401pt-24-inch-monitor,3848-3.html
According to David Torcivia, it also sports hardware calibration that can interface directly with X-Rite calibration tools.
And as far as I understand it, it is a true 10bit panel, whereas the Dell Ultra Sharp is only 8 bit with FRC dithering (according to the review).

Now, I'm really new to all this, but for the reasons above, it currently seems to me that the BenQ would be the better choice. Or are there other features it's missing for video work that the Dell has? I know the BenQ doesn't quite do DCI-P3, but if I ever have to grade in that space, I'd get a TV that suppors it and add it as a forth monitor.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Using DeckLink Mini Monitor in PP WS for 10bit Monitor

PostWed Jan 25, 2017 6:15 pm

It's Premiere or Resolve which provides you monitoring over BM card. In other words- it's software feature to provide preview over BM card and both Premiere and Resolve will do it (as well as many other software AE, Photoshop and many others- BM is quite well supported). I has not much to do with GPU directly.
Check here:
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/produc ... k/software
Just remember that Mini Monitor is quite simple and supports 1080 30p or 1080 60i maximum (no 50/60p or UHD support). You need other model for this.
GPU 10bit preview is still quite tricky and not well supported. In such a case you most likely need Quadro card, but software choice which can provide you with 10bit over GPU is limited (e.g. Photoshop will do over Quadro). For video world it's still problematic, so BM Monitor is good way of monitoring (and not expensive).

I missed Rec.709 preset, but still not sure how well this monitor works with video, different fps etc.
If you're more after print then maybe it's good choice (quite expensive though), but I'm not convinced about it wen it comes to video features. It has calibration, so you can try to calibrate to P3, but probably panel is more optimised towards Adobe RGB which is bit different. At the end true 10bit panel is better, but 8bit+FRC is not bad either.
Whatever you choose I would buy on the way that you can send it back :)

update: according to tftcentral BenQ panel is also 8bit+FRC.
I trust them way more than thomshardware. Many manufactures say 10bit without proper description of native 10bit or 8bit+FRC.

http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/benq_pg2401pt.htm

Blacks are not that great and the lag is quite high. If infos are accurate it means it uses panel from 2012, so not that new.
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apriladams

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Re: Using DeckLink Mini Monitor in PP WS for 10bit Monitor

PostWed Jan 25, 2017 10:16 pm

Alright, so even though I dont understand it, 10bit monitoring will work over the DeckLink :)
(Sidenote, if I finally have the setup, is there a way to test, if it's aktually 10bit?)

Thanks for pointing out that the BenQ is not true 10bit either! I will go with the Dell then, because it's significantly cheaper and has better video features. Also, I don't do much printdesign anyway, much more video (I find it much more fascinating and fun to do)

And finally, since the Mini Monitor ist 1080p only, it will of course not work for the 1440p Dell. But how about DeckLink Mini Monitor 4K? It only mentions various flavors of 1080p or 2160p in the specs though, would that even work with a 1440p Monitor?
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Using DeckLink Mini Monitor in PP WS for 10bit Monitor

PostWed Jan 25, 2017 10:30 pm

It's quite simple:
- with GPU it's GPU which sends signal to your monitor and this is most likely done at 8bit (and operating system controls it)
- when you have BM card applications which do support it will allow you to send video preview over BM to whatever monitor is plugged in into it. This can be 8/10bit and it's very reliable way as there is nothing not the way to mess with colors etc. (GPU can be affected by operating system setting, GPU setting itself etc). One thing- BM won't show up as hardware the same way as your GPU. You have to have application which supports it. Don't treat or bound GPU and Decklink together- they are very separate things. You can think about Decklink more like PC USB camera, which you plug in and some apps can use it.
Last edited by Andrew Kolakowski on Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Using DeckLink Mini Monitor in PP WS for 10bit Monitor

PostWed Jan 25, 2017 10:46 pm

apriladams wrote:
And finally, since the Mini Monitor ist 1080p only, it will of course not work for the 1440p Dell. But how about DeckLink Mini Monitor 4K? It only mentions various flavors of 1080p or 2160p in the specs though, would that even work with a 1440p Monitor?


Not true. Dell will accept HD signal (including video interlaced signals 1080 50/60i and even PAL and NTSC) and scale it to native monitor resolution. You should be also able to turn on 1:1 scaling, so HD signal will be shown at 1:1 pixel in the middles of the screen (with black bars around it). This is some drawback as HD won't be full screen at 1:1 pixel mapping, because Dell is higher resolution. Maybe you can consider 24ich model with HD resolution. I prefer to see video on bigger monitor.

If you get 4K BM card this will do 1080 50/60p (if you need it) and UHD. Of course in case of UHD you need ideally monitor with UHD resolution (so you have 1:1 mapping). This monitor won't support UHD signal. It doesn't support receiving UHD signal and scaling down to its native resolution, only for example some more expensive Eizo and HP models can do it. It's a rare feature.

You could try to get decent HD TV, but I'm not sure if you can get one at Dell price range. Most TVs are UHD now and good ones are quite expensive.
If you want better model (have more money) then you can look at Eizo or NEC. They are next level in reliability, quality and also price :) I like Eizo- not seen a single bad monitor from them.

Whatever you do (as I said) buy it in the way that you can return it if you are not happy. There were some reports about possible bleeding, so you may want to return it (even just to get different unit).
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apriladams

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Re: Using DeckLink Mini Monitor in PP WS for 10bit Monitor

PostThu Jan 26, 2017 6:30 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:It's quite simple:
- with GPU it's GPU which sends signal to your monitor and this is most likely done at 8bit (and operating system controls it)
- when you have BM card applications which do support it will allow you to send video preview over BM to whatever monitor is plugged in into it. This can be 8/10bit and it's very reliable way as there is nothing not the way to mess with colors etc. (GPU can be affected by operating system setting, GPU setting itself etc). One thing- BM won't show up as hardware the same way as your GPU. You have to have application which supports it. Don't treat or bound GPU and Decklink together- they are very separate things. You can think about Decklink more like PC USB camera, which you plug in and some apps can use it.


Thank you, I understand it much better now!
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apriladams

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Re: Using DeckLink Mini Monitor in PP WS for 10bit Monitor

PostThu Jan 26, 2017 6:36 pm

Regarding the Dell: Ohh yeah, I forgot about scaling. But I don't think it would be an ideal solution, I better look for a monitor which is simliar but 1080p. 4K has to wait, as I currently can neither shoot nor edit in 4K, that's a few years down the road...

I heard good things about Eizo as well, but they're so expensive! Do I at least get a true 10bit panel for the price?

Thank you again for your help! :)
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Erik Wittbusch

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Re: Using DeckLink Mini Monitor in PP WS for 10bit Monitor

PostThu Jan 26, 2017 6:57 pm

No.

Most if not all panels available are still 8bit + frc.
But you won't recognize either.

In 99% there's even no difference between 8bit and 10bit at all.

It's important to check 10bit signals for theatrical releases but not for TV, web and alikes.

You should want a monitor with good accuracy, good black levels and one that can natively show the framerates you need.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Using DeckLink Mini Monitor in PP WS for 10bit Monitor

PostFri Jan 27, 2017 10:55 am

It's not a general rule. Some Eizo use true 10bit panels, others 8bit+FRC. True 10bit panels are more common now, but as Erik said this should not be your main worry.
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apriladams

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Re: Using DeckLink Mini Monitor in PP WS for 10bit Monitor

PostFri Jan 27, 2017 7:45 pm

You're right Eric, first and foremost I should worry about getting the editing work station up and running (just orderd the parts).
Then about 8bit color accuracy (with the Dell Andrew recommended, altough I'm planning on getting the 25in version (Dell UP2516D), a setup with three 27in monitors just won't fit on my desk).
And then finally about 10bit support with the DeckLink Mini Monitor 4K.

Also good to know 8bit + FRC is defenitely not an issue.

Thanks for all your help guys!
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Humauin Kabir

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Re: Using DeckLink Mini Monitor in PP WS for 10bit Monitor

PostFri Oct 06, 2017 12:06 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:
apriladams wrote:
And finally, since the Mini Monitor ist 1080p only, it will of course not work for the 1440p Dell. But how about DeckLink Mini Monitor 4K? It only mentions various flavors of 1080p or 2160p in the specs though, would that even work with a 1440p Monitor?


If you get 4K BM card this will do 1080 50/60p (if you need it) and UHD. Of course in case of UHD you need ideally monitor with UHD resolution (so you have 1:1 mapping). This monitor won't support UHD signal. It doesn't support receiving UHD signal and scaling down to its native resolution, only for example some more expensive Eizo and HP models can do it. It's a rare feature.



Thanks for the info Andrew. If I want to get 1080 50/60p, 1080 30p or 1080 60i output, can I still buy 4K mini monitor? I am not going for UHD as my monitor (Dell UP2516D) does not support it. Can I use just one monitor for both editing and grading? I appreciate your explanation.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Using DeckLink Mini Monitor in PP WS for 10bit Monitor

PostFri Oct 06, 2017 9:46 pm

You need one monitor for full screen preview from BM card and 1 (or more) for Resolve GUI (can be worse quality).
If you want HD 50/60p then Mini Monitor 4K is enough and has good ration feature v. price. Later you can also do UHD projects with it.
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Humauin Kabir

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Re: Using DeckLink Mini Monitor in PP WS for 10bit Monitor

PostSat Oct 07, 2017 1:03 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:You need one monitor for full screen preview from BM card and 1 (or more) for Resolve GUI (can be worse quality).
If you want HD 50/60p then Mini Monitor 4K is enough and has good ration feature v. price. Later you can also do UHD projects with it.


Alright, I got it. Thank you very much again for your help.
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Humauin Kabir

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Re: Using DeckLink Mini Monitor in PP WS for 10bit Monitor

PostWed Oct 18, 2017 6:39 pm

Humauin Kabir wrote:
Andrew Kolakowski wrote:You need one monitor for full screen preview from BM card and 1 (or more) for Resolve GUI (can be worse quality).
If you want HD 50/60p then Mini Monitor 4K is enough and has good ration feature v. price. Later you can also do UHD projects with it.


Alright, I got it. Thank you very much again for your help.


Hi Andrew, I am going to use Dell UP2516D monitor to be used with Mini monitor 4k card. I would like to ask you if it is okey to use a normal cheap HD monitor (1920 by 1080 or 1920 by 1200) just as GUI monitor? I will deal with 2.5k raw footage. Thank you very much.
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Jack Fairley

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Re: Using DeckLink Mini Monitor in PP WS for 10bit Monitor

PostThu Oct 19, 2017 1:22 am

It's fine if you have a proper external monitor to look at for grading.
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Humauin Kabir

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Re: Using DeckLink Mini Monitor in PP WS for 10bit Monitor

PostThu Oct 19, 2017 8:50 pm

Jack Fairley wrote:It's fine if you have a proper external monitor to look at for grading.


Thanks Jack. Would like to bother you asking about the calibration software. My dell monitor comes with factory calibrated condition. Do I still need to calibrate it for davinci resolve? Dell has its own calibration software, however, I found lots of people use DisplayCal for davinci resolve. Do you think Dell calibration software will give me any advantages over DisplayCal or any other similar software since my monitor is from Dell (up2516d)? How often should one calibrate one's monitor?

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