Mini Converter UpDownCross HD converts Progressive only

Do you have questions about Desktop Video, Converters, Routers and Monitoring?
  • Author
  • Message
Offline
User avatar

Daniele Bemportato

  • Posts: 46
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:23 am

Mini Converter UpDownCross HD converts Progressive only

PostTue Jun 12, 2018 2:27 pm

I'm testing the new Mini Converter UpDownCross HD (2018 version) and it seems that it doesn't convert correctly interlaced footage.

I'm trying to convert PAL to 1080i50.
I've connected a Sony IMX deck to UpDownCross SDI input and UpDownCross SDI output to computer for capture.

Output signal is detected as 1080i50, but it clearly looks like progressive.
So I've captured the same frame in PAL, then using UpDownCross and using Decklink Extreme 4K input conversion.

Original PAL frame:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/srbe1ivsyl8m4zx/Original.jpg?dl=0

UpDownCross Converter (1080i50):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dzfxyhmxgj2iay4/UpDownConv.jpg?dl=0

DeckLink Extreme 4K (input SD to HD conversion enabled):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/pnfus0lgoykeves/DeckLinkExtreme4K.jpg?dl=0


As you can see the UpDownCross frame is deinterlaced.
Asus X99-E WS USB 3.1 - Intel i7 6850K - RAM 32 Gb - GeForce 1080Ti
Decklink Extreme 4K
Windows 10 Pro
Offline
User avatar

Daniele Bemportato

  • Posts: 46
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:23 am

Re: Mini Converter UpDownCross HD converts Progressive only

PostTue Jun 12, 2018 2:32 pm

In addition the colors of the original frame and the one converted by Decklink are similar, while those of the UpDownCross are slightly different.
Asus X99-E WS USB 3.1 - Intel i7 6850K - RAM 32 Gb - GeForce 1080Ti
Decklink Extreme 4K
Windows 10 Pro
Offline
User avatar

Daniele Bemportato

  • Posts: 46
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:23 am

Re: Mini Converter UpDownCross HD converts Progressive only

PostThu Jun 14, 2018 10:24 am

I did another test:

Input signal: 1080i50
Selected output format: 1080i50

Result: Progressive images in 1080i50 signal.

So UpDownCross ALWAYS deinterlace even if input and output format are the same.
Asus X99-E WS USB 3.1 - Intel i7 6850K - RAM 32 Gb - GeForce 1080Ti
Decklink Extreme 4K
Windows 10 Pro
Offline

Octovisuals

  • Posts: 3
  • Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:35 pm
  • Location: Barcelona
  • Real Name: Sergi Medina

Re: Mini Converter UpDownCross HD converts Progressive only

PostFri Jul 13, 2018 7:42 pm

Hello, Daniele.

Same here. I just bought it to use it for a live broadcast tomorrow. I'm trying to convert from HD from the Blackmagic Micro Studio Camera 4K to SD (PAL), and it's giving me that jittery movement, especially with fast horizontal movements. I've tried everything, all resolutions, frame rates and read the whole manual already, so not the camera or settings fault.

Next step is trying to update it, but given it has for some reason the only USB plug which I don't have a cable for, I need to search and buy one to do that... Also, it's too new and I don't know if the bug could be fixed already.

Given this converter is the one that one must use for live broadcast to convert from HD to SD (which as you know is always interlaced), this bug or flaw makes it almost useless. I mean, it still works, but the stroboscopic effect that it gives when discarding half of the fields isn't the look that most TV channels are looking for...

So maybe tomorrow I will give a bad impression in front of the client because of this.

Too bad.
Offline
User avatar

Daniele Bemportato

  • Posts: 46
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:23 am

Re: Mini Converter UpDownCross HD converts Progressive only

PostSat Jul 14, 2018 3:25 pm

It's not a bug, it's a feature. -__-
I wrote to Blackmagic Support and they replied to me:

We use the Teranex method of processing the image on the UpDownCross, which is appealing to most customers.
It creates a motion blur instead of a combing effect or field dominance look
Currently there is no way to alter the way we effect the conversion


I'm very disappointed about it.
This can simply be called deintarlace and should not happen during interlaced-to-interlaced conversion.

So, be aware: UpDownCross HD is a useless converter for interlaced world.
Asus X99-E WS USB 3.1 - Intel i7 6850K - RAM 32 Gb - GeForce 1080Ti
Decklink Extreme 4K
Windows 10 Pro
Offline

Andrew Kolakowski

  • Posts: 3955
  • Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:20 am

Re: Mini Converter UpDownCross HD converts Progressive only

PostSat Jul 14, 2018 6:57 pm

Interlaced to interlaced scaling for perfect result does require deinterlacing, but to double fps (so 50i to 50p). You then scale on progressive image and interlace back.
Problem is that BM deinterlaces to single fps (so 50i to 25p) and then scales, which of course is simply wrong as you totally change nature of your source. In this can processing should be simply turned off for interlaced sources, so there is no confusion among customers.
Offline

Octovisuals

  • Posts: 3
  • Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:35 pm
  • Location: Barcelona
  • Real Name: Sergi Medina

Re: Mini Converter UpDownCross HD converts Progressive only

PostSun Jul 15, 2018 8:07 am

Interesting, but too bad. This isn't a feature at all, it's just wrong. It would be a feature if they let the user choose!

Let's see what they tell me, but if it's true they aren't fixing it, I'm simply going to return this converter as it's useless for me then, as you say...

And purchase a Decimator even when it costs double... :?
Offline

Octovisuals

  • Posts: 3
  • Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:35 pm
  • Location: Barcelona
  • Real Name: Sergi Medina

Re: Mini Converter UpDownCross HD converts Progressive only

PostTue Jul 17, 2018 5:25 pm

Blackmagic answered my mail. They said this:

Speaking with our developers it appears we use the same method for processing that we do with our Teranex processors to process the image on the UpDownCross, which has been found appealing to most customers.
It creates a motion blur instead of a combing effect or field dominance kind of look that you are looking for. I have logged a feature request to see if this would be a selectable option, this will be discussed by the development engineers,however I cannot guarantee if and when this may be implemented.


Good that I just returned this conversor. It's no use for me like that.

I'd mainly use it to do live broadcasting for TV from the BMMSC4K to SD-SDI (625i50), among other things.

And TV channels usually want the interlaced footage to look like interlaced footage (you know, double temporal resolution) for sports or basically everything if they work that way. Even more reason if using a jib or crane due to the kind of movement, as it's my case...

Discarding half of the fields disregarding the output format is just seriously wrong in any case I can think of. Not everything is 24p, 25p or 29.98p...

I'm going to purchase a Decimator MD-HX or something else.

Too bad this conversor didn't work as advertised. It could've been a really good value.
Offline
User avatar

Daniele Bemportato

  • Posts: 46
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:23 am

Re: Mini Converter UpDownCross HD converts Progressive only

PostWed Jul 18, 2018 4:08 pm

Octovisuals wrote:Discarding half of the fields disregarding the output format is just seriously wrong in any case I can think of. Not everything is 24p, 25p or 29.98p...

I'm going to purchase a Decimator MD-HX or something else.

I agree.
Asus X99-E WS USB 3.1 - Intel i7 6850K - RAM 32 Gb - GeForce 1080Ti
Decklink Extreme 4K
Windows 10 Pro

Return to Post Production

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Feedfetcher, rommeljapson and 6 guests