8K HDMI monitors for Teranex Mini 8K

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ShepSiegel

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8K HDMI monitors for Teranex Mini 8K

PostTue Jun 18, 2019 8:03 pm

We love that the Teranex Mini 8K can take four 12G SDI streams from a decklink card and make a 4320p60 raster. But we are confused about the four HDMI 2.0 outputs from the Teranex box. Are they 4:1 interleaved HDMI 2.0 streams or something else? We know it's early-days for 8K, but what consumer 8K monitors are known to work with the Mini 8K? We are looking at the Samsung Q900RB 8K sets - but its not clear that would work with the Mini 8K - as a single HDMI link would require the data rates of HDMI 2.1 . Hoping some from the Blackmagic dev and sales team can chime in with options. Thanks in advance. -Shep
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Jack Fairley

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Re: 8K HDMI monitors for Teranex Mini 8K

PostTue Jun 18, 2019 9:51 pm

Tech specs say quad link HDMI 2.0 output for 8K. I think that TV is using a single HDMI 2.1 connection for 8K.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: 8K HDMI monitors for Teranex Mini 8K

PostWed Jun 19, 2019 9:19 am

If TV has HDMI 2.1 then there is tiny chance it will work with Teranex (over quad connection). Quad connection has to be implemented in TV and this is rather done on pro units, not consumer ones. Don't count on easy plug and play solutions for 8K (specially cheap ones).

This this doesn't seems to be even able to properly handle 8K. It has limited support for 8K (60p at 4:2:0 only), like 4K TVs had at the beginning (using old hacked HMDI chips):
https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarcher ... 9d6ace2102
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Dave Del Vecchio

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Re: 8K HDMI monitors for Teranex Mini 8K

PostFri Jun 21, 2019 3:23 am

With quad link SDI connections, there are two primary signal formats:
  • Square Division Quad Split - each cable carries 1 quadrant of the image
  • 2 Sample Interleave (2SI) - every 2-pixels alternate between different cables
With Square Division, each cable carries 1/4 of the image, so each signal can actually be viewed independently if desired. With 2SI, you kind of need to recombine all of the samples (de-interleave them) to construct a full frame of video.

Square Division is a little bit simpler to implement, but it does have some downsides, particularly in terms of latency. Since all of the quadrants really need to be clocked together so they can be displayed at the same time, you kind of have to wait until you get the full frame so that you can divide it up and start transmitting (or technically the delay is only 1/2 a frame because once you have the top two quadrants of a frame, you can process the lower two quadrants line by line in real time).

With 2SI, there's almost no latency, since every two pixels go out to a different cable, there's no waiting around for a big chunk of the frame to split up. There's some more background and tradeoffs of the different approaches here:
https://blog.rossvideo.com/how-to-go-uh ... -equipment

Anyhow, getting back to the Teranex Mini 8K, from the tech specs it looks like the Teranex Mini supports both Square Division and 2SI signal formats on its SDI inputs. However, I don't think there is any standard for HDMI video over 4 connectors.

My guess is that the Teranex probably uses the square division quad split approach on its HDMI outputs, with each cable carrying one quadrant of the image. This is based on the fact that in the product pages there is some reference to using quad split to build a video wall from 4 monitors.

In terms of 8K TV options, the Sharp LV-70X500E can handle 8K video over 4 HDMI 2.0 connectors, but it seems like it is only being sold in Europe. Pretty much all of the consumer-oriented 8K TVs being released in 2019 are using HDMI 2.1 to input 8K video over a single connector.

I'm doubtful we are going to see many 8K TVs with the quad HDMI input option moving forward. It seems like everything is going the HDMI 2.1 route now that HDMI 2.1 chips are becoming more available.

Hopefully, the Teranex Mini 8K is firmware upgradeable to add HDMI 2.1 support allowing 8K video over a single cable. Otherwise you are going to need multiple screens to monitor in 8K in most cases.

Incidentally, HDMI 2.1 adds a bunch of new stuff to the HDMI spec (as if there weren't enough in there already). For example, HDMI 2.1 adds Display Stream Compression (DSC 1.2, also used in DisplayPort) to enable 8K60 video at higher than 4:2:0 sub-sampling, but still fit it within the 48 Gbps bandwidth spec.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: 8K HDMI monitors for Teranex Mini 8K

PostFri Jun 21, 2019 10:57 pm

Dave Del Vecchio wrote:Hopefully, the Teranex Mini 8K is firmware upgradeable to add HDMI 2.1 support allowing 8K video over a single cable. Otherwise you are going to need multiple screens to monitor in 8K in most cases.

Incidentally, HDMI 2.1 adds a bunch of new stuff to the HDMI spec (as if there weren't enough in there already). For example, HDMI 2.1 adds Display Stream Compression (DSC 1.2, also used in DisplayPort) to enable 8K60 video at higher than 4:2:0 sub-sampling, but still fit it within the 48 Gbps bandwidth spec.


Well- without a clear statement I would not buy this box with HDMI in mind as it's most likely not HDMI 2.1 chip. If chip is not 2.1 capable then firmware update won't help. It was the same story with HDMI 1.4 modded vs. real HDMI 2.0 based devices.
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lgabor75

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Re: 8K HDMI monitors for Teranex Mini 8K

PostSun Nov 03, 2019 11:12 am

Is there any 8K tv/monitor on the market which is capable of taking the quad hdmi streams? I cant find any and if there isnt any what is the point of this feature ?
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Xtreemtec

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Re: 8K HDMI monitors for Teranex Mini 8K

PostSun Nov 03, 2019 3:28 pm

At least 1. Because i have seen it work on IBC. But not sure what monitor that was.
But it was a big one. i think 65"or bigger.


Edit:
At least this one will Sharp AQUOS 8T-C70AX1X 8K 70" TV
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Gary Adams

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Re: 8K HDMI monitors for Teranex Mini 8K

PostMon Nov 04, 2019 5:12 pm

Hello everyone. We used a Sharp monitor at the shows. I don't know which model. We currently deliver 8K using 4 HDMI connections to the monitor. We do not have the capability to do this with one connection for now.

Regards, Gary
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lgabor75

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Re: 8K HDMI monitors for Teranex Mini 8K

PostWed Nov 13, 2019 3:32 pm

Gary Adams wrote:Hello everyone. We used a Sharp monitor at the shows. I don't know which model. We currently deliver 8K using 4 HDMI connections to the monitor. We do not have the capability to do this with one connection for now.

Regards, Gary


Hi Gary, but i assume if you made this product (teranex) than it have to be a point/product which we can use it with beside the one and only Sharp TV for 11000 EUR. Am i wrong?
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Xtreemtec

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Re: 8K HDMI monitors for Teranex Mini 8K

PostThu Nov 14, 2019 10:39 am

It is build towards the future, As in the TV world there is now a "Standard" called Quadlink HDMI.

BMD likes to be a first in releasing new opportunities. So yes for now a 11000 tv will do.. Just waiting for other manufacturers to pick up the Whole 8K game..

Little reminder.. You want to run 8K. ;) Being ahead of everybody costs deep pockets full of money :lol:
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
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lgabor75

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Re: 8K HDMI monitors for Teranex Mini 8K

PostFri Nov 15, 2019 2:42 pm

Xtreemtec wrote:It is build towards the future, As in the TV world there is now a "Standard" called Quadlink HDMI.

BMD likes to be a first in releasing new opportunities. So yes for now a 11000 tv will do.. Just waiting for other manufacturers to pick up the Whole 8K game..

Little reminder.. You want to run 8K. ;) Being ahead of everybody costs deep pockets full of money :lol:


Why would tv manufacturers would come up with 'quadlink hdmi 2.0" when there is HDM 2.1 already which solves 8K on a single cable.
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Xtreemtec

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Re: 8K HDMI monitors for Teranex Mini 8K

PostFri Nov 15, 2019 4:13 pm

Because of datarate.. 4x 4K by HMDI is managable by current video processors.
1x 8K over 1 single cable is so much data to process. This takes a beast of a processor to handle 8K data on a single stream.

That is why 8K Sdi is also 4 lanes 12G-SDI. And not a single 48G-SDI link. As you can imaging, a 48G data troughput on 1 single 2 contact point cable is almost not done.

Yes HDMI has 4 streams ( 3x times color and 1 timing stream ) but still very hard to do this in 8K.

I know BMD is also working on a 8K SDI to Displayport, Which is able to drive a Displayport 2.0 specs.
But you might guess why it's not on the market available. ;) Al to do with the availability of the right FPGA's that have tranceivers that will run fast enough to push data on those speeds..

I see that Displayport 2.0 goes up to 77Gbit/s :shock: And is even able to "on paper" run 16K at 60Hz :| Dunno when and where i would need that for... But heck it seems to exist.

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Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
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lgabor75

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Re: 8K HDMI monitors for Teranex Mini 8K

PostSat Nov 16, 2019 1:38 am

Xtreemtec wrote:Because of datarate.. 4x 4K by HMDI is managable by current video processors.
1x 8K over 1 single cable is so much data to process. This takes a beast of a processor to handle 8K data on a single stream.

That is why 8K Sdi is also 4 lanes 12G-SDI. And not a single 48G-SDI link. As you can imaging, a 48G data troughput on 1 single 2 contact point cable is almost not done.

Yes HDMI has 4 streams ( 3x times color and 1 timing stream ) but still very hard to do this in 8K.

I know BMD is also working on a 8K SDI to Displayport, Which is able to drive a Displayport 2.0 specs.
But you might guess why it's not on the market available. ;) Al to do with the availability of the right FPGA's that have tranceivers that will run fast enough to push data on those speeds..

I see that Displayport 2.0 goes up to 77Gbit/s :shock: And is even able to "on paper" run 16K at 60Hz :| Dunno when and where i would need that for... But heck it seems to exist.

Image


I got you, but.....Well lets see, in my opinion there wont be any tv manufacturers building tv's with hdmi 2.0 anymore.
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: 8K HDMI monitors for Teranex Mini 8K

PostSat Nov 16, 2019 12:22 pm

Xtreemtec wrote:Because of datarate.. 4x 4K by HMDI is managable by current video processors.
1x 8K over 1 single cable is so much data to process. This takes a beast of a processor to handle 8K data on a single stream.

That is why 8K Sdi is also 4 lanes 12G-SDI. And not a single 48G-SDI link. As you can imaging, a 48G data troughput on 1 single 2 contact point cable is almost not done.



Really? What stops you to split 8K signal into 4 chunks and process separately if you need to do it over 4 chips?
Reality is that at the time there was no interface for 8K, so it had to be done this way (or not at all).
There is still no widely available one- HDMI 2.1 chips are still not so common and we need to wait for them (same for DP 2.0). It's all about having 8K device before anyone else. Those are made up standards (like quad HDMI) and work only with specific devices. This is more for R&D/custom project than for mass usage.

This also shows that SMPTE simply can keep up with demand (even if it's fake or artificially created one). They "just" accepted SDI 12G standard, and it's already to slow :)
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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: 8K HDMI monitors for Teranex Mini 8K

PostSat Nov 16, 2019 12:38 pm

lgabor75 wrote:
Xtreemtec wrote:It is build towards the future, As in the TV world there is now a "Standard" called Quadlink HDMI.

BMD likes to be a first in releasing new opportunities. So yes for now a 11000 tv will do.. Just waiting for other manufacturers to pick up the Whole 8K game..

Little reminder.. You want to run 8K. ;) Being ahead of everybody costs deep pockets full of money :lol:


Why would tv manufacturers would come up with 'quadlink hdmi 2.0" when there is HDM 2.1 already which solves 8K on a single cable.


HDMI 2.1 is just starting to appear. When standard is approved it can take long time until someone makes a good chip based on it. You have to also realise that companies may work on their devices for a long time, so when they plan what will bee included given capability may even not exist yet.

Example:
https://hdtvtest.co.uk/n/First-Full-HDM ... March-2019

First chip available after more than a year since standard announcement.

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