Maximum size of a hdmi cable

Questions about ATEM Switchers, Camera Converter and everything live!
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

Allan Peixoto

  • Posts: 13
  • Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:04 am
  • Location: Brazil

Maximum size of a hdmi cable

PostWed Apr 10, 2013 4:08 am

Hello everybody,

Can you tell me what the maximum size of a hdmi cable to connect a camera in Atem Television Studio?

Thanks
Offline

Daniel Knoche

  • Posts: 335
  • Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:59 pm
  • Location: Melbourne Aus

Re: Maximum size of a hdmi cable

PostWed Apr 10, 2013 4:17 am

Up to about 15m, but does depend on the cable itself.

Anything longer than that should consider converting it to SDI (using an HDMI to SDI converter) This does not change the format or frame rate, simply changes how the signal is transported
Daniel
Offline

Pytkin

  • Posts: 724
  • Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:11 pm

Re: Maximum size of a hdmi cable

PostWed Apr 10, 2013 9:49 am

I have 25m cable here and works well .. But it depends on source .. we had tested small handy canon cameras , and it worked only with cables up to 3meters .. with longer cables not works ..

for longer cables , U can use extender to CAT5 .. its cheap and works to 50-60meters ..
Roman Pytkin Pekarek
http://www.media-planet.sk
http://www.stonepp.tv
Offline

Allan Peixoto

  • Posts: 13
  • Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:04 am
  • Location: Brazil

Re: Maximum size of a hdmi cable

PostWed Apr 10, 2013 6:36 pm

Thanks all for the information.

From Eric Pestana
Support Representative
Blackmagicdesign

"We do not recommend HDMI cables longer than 10 ft. w/ the ATEm TVS. We also do not recommend any amplified or Boosted HDMI cables at all. Can you plug a camera in to the HDMI port on the ATEM w/ a 10ft or less regular HDMI cable to see if the port works?

If your camera needs to be more than 10 feet from the ATEM we recommend converting to SDI to make your long cable run."


I bought cables with 15 meters to work with the camera Panasonic AG-AC7 and unfortunately it did not work. Today I bought new 10 meter cables and neither worked.

I'll stop buying cables. Now I'll buy the HDMI to SDI converters.
Offline

Guidez

  • Posts: 30
  • Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:52 pm

Re: Maximum size of a hdmi cable

PostWed Apr 10, 2013 6:48 pm

Allan Peixoto wrote:I'll stop buying cables. Now I'll buy the HDMI to SDI converters.


Why? I have one set of these (and buying some more), and they work awesomely:

Extender:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/produ ... 1&format=2

Cables:
http://www.amazon.com/BlueRigger-High-S ... igger+hdmi

Ethernet:
Cat6, anything that's not crap.
Offline

Allan Peixoto

  • Posts: 13
  • Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:04 am
  • Location: Brazil

Re: Maximum size of a hdmi cable

PostWed Apr 10, 2013 7:31 pm

Pytkin wrote:I have 25m cable here and works well .. But it depends on source .. we had tested small handy canon cameras , and it worked only with cables up to 3meters .. with longer cables not works ..

for longer cables , U can use extender to CAT5 .. its cheap and works to 50-60meters ..


Hi,

I made a new test now using the same cable 15 meters but with another camera, a Sony NX5U and everything worked. The cable is not defective, is perfect.

The camera Panasonic AG-AC7 not have enough power to travel the video signal by a greater length cable.
Offline

Guidez

  • Posts: 30
  • Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:52 pm

Re: Maximum size of a hdmi cable

PostWed Apr 10, 2013 8:23 pm

Have you tried a 1 meter cable with the Panasonic AG-AC7?
Offline

Allan Peixoto

  • Posts: 13
  • Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:04 am
  • Location: Brazil

Re: Maximum size of a hdmi cable

PostWed Apr 10, 2013 8:31 pm

Guidez wrote:Have you tried a 1 meter cable with the Panasonic AG-AC7?


Yes... in Panasonic...

1 meter cable - ok
2 meters cable - ok
5 meter cable - error
Offline

Guidez

  • Posts: 30
  • Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:52 pm

Re: Maximum size of a hdmi cable

PostWed Apr 10, 2013 8:59 pm

Never thought that it would be the actual power out of the device itself, but makes sense I guess.
Offline

Pytkin

  • Posts: 724
  • Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:11 pm

Re: Maximum size of a hdmi cable

PostWed Apr 10, 2013 10:29 pm

Allan Peixoto wrote:I made a new test now using the same cable 15 meters but with another camera, a Sony NX5U and everything worked. The cable is not defective, is perfect.

The camera Panasonic AG-AC7 not have enough power to travel the video signal by a greater length cable.

yes .. i told U .. it depends on cameras ..
Roman Pytkin Pekarek
http://www.media-planet.sk
http://www.stonepp.tv
Offline
User avatar

Xtreemtec

  • Posts: 340
  • Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:48 am
  • Location: The Netherlands

Re: Maximum size of a hdmi cable

PostFri Apr 12, 2013 9:14 am

Indeed it really depends on the output driver used in the camera.

Some camera's only build the HDMI so you could hook it up to your TV and watch your video's with family and friends.

So why would you put in then a chipset that costs 3 times as much as a low power version that can handle 2 meters at most ;)


Semi Pro camera's do have those high output drivers.

I have seen HDMI cable's going up to 25 meters and working.. But my base rule is. Anything longer then 10 meter HDMI is TROUBLE!!! If you want trouble go ahead and lose a lot of hours trying to fix it. Or spend some money on the right converters and save a lot of time and stress :P
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
ATEM 1M/E, Hyperdeck Studio, Hyperdeck Shuttle 1, JVC HM700 Full HD Camera, Bunch of different BMD converters.
Offline
User avatar

Thomas Seewald

  • Posts: 603
  • Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:57 am

Re: Maximum size of a hdmi cable

PostFri Apr 12, 2013 10:52 am

Its interesting. My Panasonic Cameras dont't work with 15m HDMI-Cable, also when using an active repeater with an external power supply. So it must depends on other things or the repeater is not as "active" I hope ..... (So for what it have external power connection ?)
thos-berlin - Thomas S e e w a l d
Offline
User avatar

Xtreemtec

  • Posts: 340
  • Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:48 am
  • Location: The Netherlands

Re: Maximum size of a hdmi cable

PostFri Apr 12, 2013 1:19 pm

Thomas, It all depends on how fast the HDMI signal degrades in the cable. And how much the chipset inside the camera boosts the signal to get it true.

Okee a little lesson in HDMI cables and how it works.

How does HDMI transport the digital video: The video portion of HDMI is carried by 3 separate differential pairs. Each pair transports 1 of 3 uncompressed native digital R,G, B signals from source ( dvd player, set top box) to the sink ( HDTV display). A unique protocol, T.M.D.S.( transmission minimized differential signaling), is used to transport the digital data. Each pixel is represented by 24 bits ( 8 bits each for each of the primary colors). The T.M.D.S. protocol then "calculates" and stuffs 2 extra bits to the video data stream in order to create a digital stream with minimum transitions ( lower EMI, lower interference) and also minimize long strings of '1' and '0' which can cause detection errors.

A fourth differential pair, called the TMDS clock provides the pixel clock for timing the data stream. The maximum TMDS single link pixel clock rate is 165 MHz.

What is the data rate of a single link HDMI connection: The maximum pixel clock rate is 165MHz and each of the 3 TMDS video streams carries 10 bits. Therefore the aggregate data rate is 3 x 10 x 165MHz = 4.95Gbps.

How many pins are included in the HDMI connector: There are 19 individual pins in the HDMI connector. There are 3 pairs of TMDS signals which carry all the digital audio and video signals.

Source:: http://www.octavainc.com/HDMI%20deciphered.htm

Well So the HDMI signal is Digital. 0 and 1. But a lot of them running together and in high speeds (up to 5Gbps)
That means that a lot of info is going trough your cable.. Remember from the early days if you had a very thin composite cable or had some power cable's running close to it.. You could see that in your analog picture? Well that is distortion.. Distortion and loss of quality has to do with a few factors..

-1 Cable quality Cables with very low impendence have better success. Also more copper means better signal. (more copper is often more expensive cable)

-2 Cable shield It all depends on how well the shield is that is made around the cable. Some manufactures cut cost here by just putting a few strands of aluminum wire or foil around the cable. The idea behind the shield is to minimize the influence from outside (magnetic distortion caused by
other wiring)

-3 Cable Length The longer the cable, the more distortion and cable resistance there is.

-4 Cable driver inside camera This is a big deal.!! Camera's like GoPro, handycams, consumer products do have HDMI. The problem is this HDMI output was never meant for long cable runs. These products have been designed with the consumer in mind. Dad who filmed his son on his first bicycle run. A party or whatever.. They plug the camera into there HDMI TV in the living room with a short cable and everything works just fine!! Now a new world opened up with HDMI enabled video mixers. So people can use "cheap" camcorders as input device to your mixer and do your thing with it. But HDMI was never designed for cables longer then 10 meters.. HDMI was designed for in the living room. Set-top box to TV. Cable length 1.80 meters... Those consumer camera's were never designed for long cables.. They were designed to put your camera next to the tv to watch the footage back.

-5 Receiver Error handling Because with every meter of HDMI cable the signal degrades and ones and zero's starting to get lost. There is an error handling inside HDMI. It tries to give you the best picture as long as possible.. But if too much of the packets get lost or "unreadable" the signal will go black, stutter, give errors, or digital noise.. (Depending on the chipset behind it)

-6 Bandwith Also bandwith of the signal has some to do with it. As 1080P /1080I needs a lot more data to transmit as 720P or other resolutions.. And higher speeds means more loss of bits..

Noise distortion pattern on HDMI
Reading an Eye Diagram

The eye diagram is a valuable tool for analyzing the quality of a digital signal. It consists of the signal’s oscilloscope display, repetitively sampled to present an “at-a-glance” depiction of its behavior. It is particularly useful in evaluating how well an interconnect maintains signal integrity over distance.

As with any interconnect, signal attenuation and interference in an HDMI cable will increase over distance, until at a certain length the signal-to-noise ratio becomes unacceptable. As the signal degrades, the “eye” begins to collapse. Once the eye collapses into the mask (the area that describes the minimally acceptable opening for a signal to be recovered by the receiver of the signal – the HDTV or projector), then the signal is not strong enough to pass HDMI compliance.
eye diagram

Image

The eye diagram on the left shows a robust, undistorted digital signal that does not encroach in the mask (gray area in the center). Notice the large area of undisturbed black space in the center of each sample, indicating that the signal is strong and noise is low. Note how signal noise and attenuation has closed down the “eye” and the signal has started to encroach on the mask.

Maximum length can vary widely based on the cable’s materials (i.e., copper or fiber), the quality of its construction, the quality of the HDMI receiver chip, and the presence or absence of active electronics in the transmission path. As well, a cable ability to successfully pass an HDMI signal depends on its bandwidth capability

Source:: http://www.hdmi.org/installers/eyediagram.aspx

What does an extender do? Well this difference what is used inside the extender...
Some extenders only have drivers inside.. What it does, is gain the input signal AND noise and output it again..
Other extenders do have advanced re-clocking and cable equalization inside. They decode the signal. Clean it up. (get rid of the noise) and output a clean signal again. (most of the times these extenders are the expensive ones as there is a lot more inside then just a signal booster.)


End conclusion: HDMI is designed for SHORT distances. And the performance of a HDMI connection has a lot of variables why it does or does not work.. Then why do we use it in the first place??
Because we can! And it is cheap..

Because 95% of the devices worldwide with a HDMI connection is designed and build for consumer purpose. For use in your living room or with your computer..

And yes SDI is also relies on good cables, good shielding from distortion, error handling and re-clocking. But it is an industry standard. Designed to work with long runs of cable. Designed to handle high quality video. Designed with a sturdy connector..

SDI is not a cheap solution compared to HDMI. But it is designed for the broadcast industry. And is proven to work!
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
ATEM 1M/E, Hyperdeck Studio, Hyperdeck Shuttle 1, JVC HM700 Full HD Camera, Bunch of different BMD converters.
Offline

JerusalemMediaGroup

  • Posts: 1
  • Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:12 pm
  • Location: Jerusalem, Israel

Re: Maximum size of a hdmi cable

PostTue Apr 16, 2013 6:37 pm

We use 10m, 12m, and 15 meter HDMI cables without a problem all the time. If we need to string two of them together we have a KanexPro amp, we also have a 30m KanexPro amplified cable that works great with every camera we've tried it on. (Highly recommend their products, great service as well.)

We've tried a few HDMI over cat5/6 systems but had problems with them. (They worked in the studio when we tested them, but failed to work on location.)

Of course, for most big jobs we do, we're renting additional cameras, so we just rent cameras with HD-SDI and have run those up to 100m without issue.
Professional Audio and Video production services.
Studio with 40sq. meter soundstage and Mac and PC edit bays.
Multicamera live event broadcasting services.

Blackmagic Design gear:
ATEM 1 m/e, Ultrastudio Express, Ultrastudio Mini Recorder, Intensity Pro
Offline

scottyd

  • Posts: 126
  • Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:27 am

Re: Maximum size of a hdmi cable

PostWed Apr 17, 2013 4:56 am

JerusalemMediaGroup wrote:We use 10m, 12m, and 15 meter HDMI cables without a problem all the time. If we need to string two of them together we have a KanexPro amp, we also have a 30m KanexPro amplified cable that works great with every camera we've tried it on. (Highly recommend their products, great service as well.)

We've tried a few HDMI over cat5/6 systems but had problems with them. (They worked in the studio when we tested them, but failed to work on location.)

Of course, for most big jobs we do, we're renting additional cameras, so we just rent cameras with HD-SDI and have run those up to 100m without issue.

Which HDMI over cat5/6 system did you use? My work just bought an extender made by Avenview...this one. Had so many problems with it. Tried multiple cat5e cables at varying lengths (even short 10 footers). It would work sometimes after many power cycles and resets. Ended up calling them and they couldn't fix it so now they are sending a replacement. Should be here next week, but I'm very skeptical of these products. Wondering if the KanexPro HDMi extender 100m would work any better. It looks very similar to the Avenview.
Offline

Pytkin

  • Posts: 724
  • Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:11 pm

Re: Maximum size of a hdmi cable

PostWed Apr 17, 2013 8:38 am

we are using very cheap extenders (about 30 EUR) and works very good .. up to 50-60meters .. but sometimes are problem .. and then we using DVI extender + HDLINK Pro .. But price is cca 650 EUR .. little bit more :) But works on situation , where cheap extender not works ..

ahh .. We using it for Computer monitors .. 1920x1200 , 60Hz .. may be 1080i will works with this extenders better ..
Roman Pytkin Pekarek
http://www.media-planet.sk
http://www.stonepp.tv

Return to Live Production

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 3 guests