Live production setup for sports

Questions about ATEM Switchers, Camera Converter and everything live!
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tj1988

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Live production setup for sports

PostSat Jan 04, 2014 9:43 pm

Hi,
Could you please help me in collecting the full needed setup for live-broadcasting ?
It's about broadcasting an football games with commentary etc. Instant replays would be needed also I guess.

First of all i thought about ATEM TV Studio and 3 camcorders connected with HD-SDI. However, as far as I know, it does not support replays?

What is the best set up? Maybe Livestream 500?
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Thomas Seewald

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Re: Live production setup for sports

PostSat Jan 04, 2014 10:56 pm

However, as far as I know, it does not support replays?


The ATEM TVS is a vision mixer, no instant replay unit. For graphics, you could use CasparCG.

Some people has also built a CasparCG based slowmotion / instant replay unit. Other people uses BM hyperdecks with RS422 tape controller for slowmotion / instant replays.

I think, it is mostly a question of budget. I don't know the price for "Livestream 500". On a first look, it seems to be a powerful solution.

A well known solution for slow motion is "newtek 3play 425", which costs € 13.000,- in basic version.

The software VidBlaster has also a slowmotion modul.

My idea:
Don't use a "all-in-one Computer" solution. If it fails, the complete live-boadcast fails...
thos-berlin - Thomas S e e w a l d
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MambaFiber.com

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Re: Live production setup for sports

PostSun Jan 05, 2014 1:42 am

You will also need a fully separate audio system, IFB cueing system, real communications system (the ATEM solution is crap IMO)...unless you are talking the high school football circuit/serious home movie coverage. I'm also think one or two channels of graphics generation and at least two channels of replay recorders. All of this will FAR surpass the cost of the ATEM and cameras...

You will also probably want separate people doing the separate tasks, as I don't know anyone who can pull off mixing the video, mixing the audio, directing the show, running the replays, building the graphics, keeping the stats, cueing the talent......and all the other things ---by themselves...a really good production is usually a whole crew of people.

One of the problems with Livestream/Newtek/etc is that they only allow for one set on hands to drive them...

Food for thought...happy shopping!! :-)
Greg Bellotte - owner
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Scott B

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Re: Live production setup for sports

PostMon Jan 06, 2014 7:52 am

I do live sports at work and in my opinion blackmagic gear is not a good solution for this. I use broadcast pix switchers for live football and basketball as well as MMA. I also own a ATEM 1ME, but that cant do football and basketball. Broadcast pix switcher have built in graphics which allows you to easily and instantly update things like scores, downs, yard you can even sync clocks to daktronics score boards and make the graphics automated.

I also agree you will need a comm system such as clear com or RTS and that comm system needs to be able to talk with your commentators. I use fast forward video replay decks for instant replay. I am actually looking into how well the RS422 control works with the hyperdeck.

just an FYI, i built a mobile production truck at work for football, take 3 operators in the truck one director, one engineer, and one graphics operator, then 1 camera operator per camera you want. I built my truck with 3 JVC GY-HM790 with copperhead fiber hook ups for $224,000 just for the equipment.

Long story short, there is not an easy cheap way to do it.
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Scott Ryan

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Re: Live production setup for sports

PostMon Jan 06, 2014 9:51 am

Scott B wrote:I do live sports at work and in my opinion blackmagic gear is not a good solution for this. I use broadcast pix switchers for live football and basketball as well as MMA. I also own a ATEM 1ME, but that cant do football and basketball. Broadcast pix switcher have built in graphics which allows you to easily and instantly update things like scores, downs, yard you can even sync clocks to daktronics score boards and make the graphics automated.

I also agree you will need a comm system such as clear com or RTS and that comm system needs to be able to talk with your commentators. I use fast forward video replay decks for instant replay. I am actually looking into how well the RS422 control works with the hyperdeck.

just an FYI, i built a mobile production truck at work for football, take 3 operators in the truck one director, one engineer, and one graphics operator, then 1 camera operator per camera you want. I built my truck with 3 JVC GY-HM790 with copperhead fiber hook ups for $224,000 just for the equipment.

Long story short, there is not an easy cheap way to do it.

How much do those Pix switchers run? Never heard of them, but was just looking at their site. How much would the Mica run?
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Roman Pytkin Pekarek

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Re: Live production setup for sports

PostMon Jan 06, 2014 4:30 pm

We had Broadcast Pix switcher in studio .. And it was up/down scalled all signals to 720p internally .. So not usable with 1080i cameras (Sony HXC100) .. We had returned it to distributor and changed it to Echolab ATEM , whitch is really great switcher ..
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Scott B

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Re: Live production setup for sports

PostTue Jan 07, 2014 1:23 am

i have one of each switcher broadcast pix makes. They all up scale to 1080, maybe the older versions were 720. you also have the option to output 720, or SD-SDI.

The Flint system which is basically using a bunch of blackmagic SDI cards with a 500 control panel i think was under 10K, the mica which i use for government meetings and live MMA with the 500 control panel is about $18,000, the granite which i have in my production truck with the 500 control panel was over $25,000. This also includes additional options like 3 additional keyers, and rapid CG which makes sports production super easy.

They are expensive but they are extremly reliable and even have fail safe operation. Meaning if the computer crashes you still have a default signal coming through. You can also use multip operators with additional control panels or use a keyboard and mouse, ipad, or an application on the computer.
Once you work with them and see what all you cando a world of possibilities opens up.
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Scott Ryan

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Re: Live production setup for sports

PostTue Jan 07, 2014 7:50 am

They look like they are just regular PCs with added hardware in a server rack. Are they running Windows?
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Kane Peterson

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Re: Live production setup for sports

PostTue Jan 07, 2014 7:52 am

MambaFiber.com wrote:One of the problems with Livestream/Newtek/etc is that they only allow for one set on hands to drive them...

Just wanted to let you know that NewTek has added MIDI control panel support in their latest software which would allow multiple people to work on a system together.
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Roman Pytkin Pekarek

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Re: Live production setup for sports

PostTue Jan 07, 2014 3:02 pm

Scott B wrote:i have one of each switcher broadcast pix makes. They all up scale to 1080, maybe the older versions were 720. you also have the option to output 720, or SD-SDI.

yes but problem was : input is 1080i .. output is set to 1080i .. and switcher scalled internaly input (1080i) to 720 , and after its upscalled output to 1080i .. it was not acceptable ..
http://tally.pytkin.sk
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Lance Burns

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Re: Live production setup for sports

PostTue Jan 07, 2014 8:25 pm

I use the following equipment.

Atem TV studio - Switching
Hyperdeck Studio - Recording final program out - 2 ssd 500 gig drives
3 Sony ex3 cameras
mackie mixing board for audio
2 commentator headsets
1 Talk back headset to commentators (this gives me the ability to talk to them to feed them information)
Analog to Digital Audio convertor - TVS is only digital
Headphone preamp to the commentators can head themselves.
2 Intensity extremes
1 Computer for Switching
1 computer for Graphics
1 computer for replays - Record with media express
1 computer for streaming
2 Monitors for switching and program outputs
ton of cables to connect everything.

In terms of the replays - We connect hdmi program out of the atemtvs to the intensity. Intensity is connected to computer (with ssd internal) to record the feed with media express. When we want to show a replay, we stop the record on the media express program and then rewind and hit play. We connect the extreme back to one of the hdmi inputs and just switch to that input on the tv studio. This is NOT the best solution but it does work.

When we want graphic overlays, we have the graphics computer connected to another intensity which is then connected to another hdmi input on the tvs. The switcher just drops in a key with the graphics and now you have graphics over your feed.

Keep in mind though, you can not go back and re-edit out a mistake with this system. You would need to edit a mistake in post.

This is NOT the best solution however it does work for me. Any questions, please ask.
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Scott B

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Re: Live production setup for sports

PostWed Jan 08, 2014 8:00 am

Pytkin wrote:
Scott B wrote:i have one of each switcher broadcast pix makes. They all up scale to 1080, maybe the older versions were 720. you also have the option to output 720, or SD-SDI.

yes but problem was : input is 1080i .. output is set to 1080i .. and switcher scalled internaly input (1080i) to 720 , and after its upscalled output to 1080i .. it was not acceptable ..



i have never seen anything with in broadcast pix that shows it scaling everything to 720 then back to 1080 on the out put.
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Scott B

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Re: Live production setup for sports

PostWed Jan 08, 2014 8:03 am

scottyd wrote:They look like they are just regular PCs with added hardware in a server rack. Are they running Windows?



Yes, they do run windows, there are some internal components that allow for the fail safe.

Trust me, these are awesome machines. I have used these machines to win multiple awards for live sports production. With the right crew of people you can do high end sports production that you would think only ESPN and the big boys can do.
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Roman Pytkin Pekarek

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Re: Live production setup for sports

PostWed Jan 08, 2014 1:41 pm

Scott : it was BROADCAST PIX SLATE 1000G
http://tally.pytkin.sk
http://chucktv.eu
http://www.stonepp.tv
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Thomas Seewald

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Re: Live production setup for sports

PostWed Jan 08, 2014 2:39 pm

Hi photoburns,

What kind of CG do you use ? CasparCG ?
thos-berlin - Thomas S e e w a l d
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Lance Burns

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Re: Live production setup for sports

PostThu Jan 09, 2014 2:21 am

We don't need live text so we create all of our graphics ahead of time in Final Cut / After effect. We dump the mov files into media express and then play then when we need it.
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Scott B

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Re: Live production setup for sports

PostThu Jan 09, 2014 6:22 am

Pytkin wrote:Scott : it was BROADCAST PIX SLATE 1000G




Yeah, the slates were the first models. Those are all gone now. The newer models are awesome. All 1080I naive.
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Roman Pytkin Pekarek

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Re: Live production setup for sports

PostThu Jan 09, 2014 7:25 am

Scott : We are happy with Echolab ATEM ..
http://tally.pytkin.sk
http://chucktv.eu
http://www.stonepp.tv
http://www.media-planet.sk
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Sam Jones

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Re: Live production setup for sports

PostThu Jan 09, 2014 8:53 am

TJ: What equipment do you already have if any? Also, will this be for a truck, permanent installation or a fly away kit?
    ATEM TVS
    ATEM Production Studio 4K
    Intensity Pro
    2 x Decklink 4K Extreme
    SDI to HDMI 4K converter
    Ultrastudio Express
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Hakon Oddsson

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Re: Live production setup for sports

PostWed Oct 22, 2014 11:36 am

Very interesting discussion. I am a film/multicam teacher and we are broadcasting Hockey games as a student project. What I have at the moment:

ATEM TV Studio
x3 Sony NX5 SDI out (1080i50)
Hyper Deck for recording HD mix
Intenisty Extreme for streaming
Clear-Com commando
x2 commentators hand mikes straight to camera1 (audio mix in ATEM)
x1 live directional mike to camera2 (audio mix in ATEM)

First we used Ustream with build in scoreboard. Now we are trying FlashMediaLiveEncoder and use CamTwist for scoreboard. Problem with Adobe Encoder is a lagging compression (not good for action sport). We are working on that.

What we need is REPLAY and we will try "photoburns" MediaExpress solution (but needs extra Intensity Extreme).

Is anyone using PS plug-in to ATEM for graphics (it is hard to use same computer for Mixing live and making Graphics)? I think I saw a possibility to make graphic in separate computer and send it to ATEM Media player via ethernet?

Hakon
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Göran Diffner

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Re: Live production setup for sports

PostWed Oct 22, 2014 1:33 pm

Hakon Oddsson wrote:Very interesting discussion. I am a film/multicam teacher and we are broadcasting Hockey games as a student project. What I have at the moment:

ATEM TV Studio
x3 Sony NX5 SDI out (1080i50)
Hyper Deck for recording HD mix
Intenisty Extreme for streaming
Clear-Com commando
x2 commentators hand mikes straight to camera1 (audio mix in ATEM)
x1 live directional mike to camera2 (audio mix in ATEM)

First we used Ustream with build in scoreboard. Now we are trying FlashMediaLiveEncoder and use CamTwist for scoreboard. Problem with Adobe Encoder is a lagging compression (not good for action sport). We are working on that.

What we need is REPLAY and we will try "photoburns" MediaExpress solution (but needs extra Intensity Extreme).

Is anyone using PS plug-in to ATEM for graphics (it is hard to use same computer for Mixing live and making Graphics)? I think I saw a possibility to make graphic in separate computer and send it to ATEM Media player via ethernet?

Hakon


Did you try atem direct in to fmle without camtwist, camtwist is pretty heavy for the computer specially if the same computer is encoding too.

You are doing a long trip from the cams in to the atem then to the capture card and then in to camtwist and from camtwist in to fmle and then out on the internet. So lots of things like a computer that cannot really handle it, a weak link in the hardware chain etc etc could cause this. You need at least three displays/monitors on a computer to do a broadcast if you use fmle and camtwist so a desktop is prefered I guess.

Two desktops with Intensity pro capturecards (cuase they have input and output) and a ultrastudio mini recorder should be a good base for pretty much any broadcast. That would be a flexible setup with lots of possibillities and processing power at your hand.
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Thomas Seewald

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Re: Live production setup for sports

PostWed Oct 22, 2014 10:40 pm

If you have decided to use a second computer for scoreboard, give CasparCG a try. It is more professional, than updating graphics in photoshop and updating ATEM mediastore .... i think, Your students are able to create a client for hockey or modify existing clients.
thos-berlin - Thomas S e e w a l d
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Richard Freemantle

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Re: Live production setup for sports

PostThu Oct 23, 2014 9:58 am

You could use MX Light (http://www.mxlight.co.uk) which has a replay system built in. This uses the h264 output from the TVS, so no additional capture hardware is required.

The basic concept:
  • The mixed output from your TVS is recorded by MX Light
  • You set cue points for replays
  • When a replay cue is triggered, the replay is played on a 2nd monitor output which goes into a ATEM TVS input, allowing the slow motion replay to be mixed in
Here's a tutorial demonstrating an example replay setup : http://mxlight.co.uk/tutorial---instant-replay.html
MX Light developer
www.mxlight.co.uk
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Hakon Oddsson

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Re: Live production setup for sports

PostSun Nov 09, 2014 1:17 pm

Thanks for replies and suggestions…
• We will try to skip CamTwist and go directly to FMLE (with 720p) and see if that is better
• Caspar GC sounds and looks nice but BM TV studio is very limited on in/out options and will require extra mac
• as for MX Light we are totally MAC based but Parallel is an option we will look into and the REPLAY sounds nice...

The plan is to try FFmpeg instead of FMLE and see if it works better. Also next hockey game (on Thuseday) we will try 720p instead of 1080i but I understand 1080i is hard on FMLE.

Is anyone streaming HD with FMLE (1080i signal) without problems?
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Roman Pytkin Pekarek

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Re: Live production setup for sports

PostMon Nov 10, 2014 1:25 am

if u stream to STB , then interlaced is OK (but FMLE cant send correct interlaced video) .. if u stream for computers, then progresive format is much better ..
http://tally.pytkin.sk
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Zach Schuster

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Re: Live production setup for sports

PostTue Nov 11, 2014 4:22 am

CGStatLink is an easy to use PC-based program for generating scorebugs and other graphics. It requires an HDMI connection from the computer running the software to the the ATEM, or any system with HDMI input that you can key.

We currently have Football and Baseball/Softball, with Soccer and Basketball in development. Baseball/Softball isn't quite there with the ATEM support yet, though.

http://www.cgstatlink.com
Zach Schuster
SuiteCG- An All-in-One Graphics System for Live Sports
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Whit Prophet

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Live production setup for sports - Hockey

PostMon Jun 22, 2015 1:35 pm

Thanks to all the great support (Thomas, Zach, Neil, Richard and on and on ) in this and other forums, I am well on my way to being prepared for next hockey season broadcasts in HD. Actually opening weekend is 10 weeks away.

My setup has been thru many permutations and combinations. I now envision to look like this but still have some questions.

3 Cameras feeding into the ATEM TVS
1 laptop feeding the scorebug via CasparCG
1 laptop running MXlight (replays) and vMix, feeding into the ATEM TVS
Output of ATEM going to an encoder computer for streaming
Output recorded on SSD(s)

I am migrating from a Tricaster Studio (SD) with TimeWarp Intsant replays & SloMo. I believe my setup will replicate everything I did on the Tricaster, but still have some questions about MXLight replays.

If this is not the correct "forum" for some queries re MXLight, read no further.

1. Does the "slice" technique eliminate instant replay?
2. Does the cue in point begin as soon as you hit cue or after you name the clip?
3. The cue points (in point) are only saved in the text file. ?

If I were to temporarily stop recording (between periods ) do the cues still exist when I resume recording at the start of the next period ?

If I were to create a "highlights" package the next day, I would use the times in the text file to locate the events I wanted from the game file?

If not the orrect "forum" where should I be adressing these issues, Richard ?

Thanks

Whit
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Anthony Sellitto

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Re: Live production setup for sports

PostMon Jun 22, 2015 7:55 pm

Probably one of the best forum posts read in a long time.

Some additions...I've been live streaming for sports, corporate, and entertainment for almost a decade now and and really haven't seen any issues with Adobe Live encoder except when I hear from people who are using a Mac as most (good) live encoding started out for windows bases systems...Most hadware/and computer based systems are really just command lining adobe/windows media/ ect anyway. Where live encoding gets most glitches winds up in not having dedicated encoding card or sometimes 2( one to capture video and one to capture audio) though that is going way now and mostly can use one card...My Decklink card encoders have been rock solid for couple years now. If you need to step up the encoding then maybe using a Osprey card(about $1500)...these you can purchase license to do simulstream if you require different bitrates or need to stream same bitrate to multiple content delivery networks. They are built into most of the $15k encoders ala niargar :idea: a/digital rapids so $500 computer and $1500 card can get you same performance.
Another issue though could be your content delivery network...Also if you are streaming rtmp but viewing m3u8 content then somewhere down the line the stream gets hashed for m3u8 and you should typically see delay(if you at live and then viewing web) up to a minute or so...rtmp to rtmp fmle you should see about 2-10 second delay...again delays are perceptual you in the room end user they have no clue. The only thing I don't like about FLME is that your pixel sizes need to be even numbers...so not totally true 16x9 settings when doing small size encodes and you will have to a height or width to nearest even number.

Also unless you are streaming to a Roku device channel that is streaming to TV 1080 2mb settings are overkill for streaming live...max it at a 720p, 520, 480, (which will help with encoding if computer choking) and cut the stream bitrate down to about 400kb/s-750kb/s for sports...play with that and what you think is acceptable for your needs. Corporate I don't usually stream more than 200kb/s 1) talking head not much backround re-encoding2) corporate network sweet spot 3) you doing smaller video sizes because you have webpage that has video and pushed synchronized slides (jpeg) in other frameset...soo video is maybe 320x240 or 420x270 ect...

I like the h264 recorder and light mix option..may build that out for one of my MMA clients...I would suggest splitting it's output to goto mixer then one to goto small confidence monitor for your commentators to watch and do their thing.
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Roman Pytkin Pekarek

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Re: Live production setup for sports

PostMon Jun 22, 2015 9:42 pm

Whit Prophet : I was looked at MXLight replay solution , and not liked it .. I was found an livereplayer software then .. And its really great .. look at it .. http://www.livereplayer.com ..
http://tally.pytkin.sk
http://chucktv.eu
http://www.stonepp.tv
http://www.media-planet.sk
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Thomas Seewald

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Re: Live production setup for sports

PostTue Jun 23, 2015 9:26 am

Roman, am I right, that livereplayer needs a Mac ?

Does someone here have any experiences with CasparCG-based "open slomo" ? (http://openslomo.ru/en/)

Whit already uses CasparCG for Graphics. So maybe "open slomo" could match (but then a Desktop PC would be required)
thos-berlin - Thomas S e e w a l d
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Artem

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Re: Live production setup for sports

PostTue Jun 23, 2015 5:02 pm

Hi Thomas and all. Openslomo - great freeware tool (thanx CasparCG). On old Core I3 work like charm with one or two cams. Three or four cams need more powerful processor. Respect openslomo's author.
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Roman Pytkin Pekarek

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Re: Live production setup for sports

PostTue Jun 23, 2015 10:50 pm

Thomas : Yes .. Livereplayer works only on MAC ..
http://tally.pytkin.sk
http://chucktv.eu
http://www.stonepp.tv
http://www.media-planet.sk

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