BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

Questions about ATEM Switchers, Camera Converter and everything live!
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frank_dhev

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BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostSun Apr 06, 2014 12:24 am

Hello friends,
I need your help. I am just a newbie with Black Magic Systems.
I am going to set up a Live Event Coverage. What I have with me is the following.
3 – Black Magic Pocket Cinema
1 – ATEM television Studio
When I tried to set up, the BMPC is not working on ATEM TVS. I’d like to know what should be the best solution for this to utilize the things I bought to work things together… Your response is of great help! Thanks heaps.
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Sharyn Ferrick

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostSun Apr 06, 2014 7:11 am

The BMPC does not output 1080i so it does non work with the original tvs or atem 1 m/e it will work with the new 4k versions, or you can get a converter that takes 1080p and converts it to 1080i

Sharyn
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frank_dhev

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostSun Apr 06, 2014 7:28 am

Thanks sharyn... I am curious about converter "that takes 1080p and converts it to 1080i" where can I find that?? is it available in Black Magic Products too? Thanks!
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Darrell Sim

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostMon Apr 07, 2014 3:23 am

Hi,

Just to clarify all doubts. The ATEM Television Studio does work with the Pocket Cinema Camera. You'll need to turn overlays 'OFF' to get a 1080i signal. If overlays are 'ON', the image will be a 1080p signal.

Also ensure the frame rate is set to either 25 or 29.97 to show either 1080i50 or 1080i5994.

Do ensure that you do not use a HDMI cable which is more than 5m or 16ft.
Darrell Sim
Support Engineer
Blackmagic Design Asia
support-asia@blackmagicdesign.com
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frank_dhev

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostMon Apr 07, 2014 3:47 am

Darrell Sim wrote:Hi,

Just to clarify all doubts. The ATEM Television Studio does work with the Pocket Cinema Camera. You'll need to turn overlays 'OFF' to get a 1080i signal. If overlays are 'ON', the image will be a 1080p signal.

Also ensure the frame rate is set to either 25 or 29.97 to show either 1080i50 or 1080i5994.

Do ensure that you do not use a HDMI cable which is more than 5m or 16ft.


Hello sir! thanks for this. I have tried to connect but still it is not displaying anything but black... what seems to be the problem with this? I am just quite novice from this.. sorry for asking so much. thanks!
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Sharyn Ferrick

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostMon Apr 07, 2014 6:32 am

Darrel
that is great news,
can I suggest that the manual be updated the online one on page 23 makes no mention that if you turn overlays off that the output is then switched to 1080i it simply says it is a clean feed.
http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/media/5 ... y_2013.pdf

of course the downside?? is that it does not support 1080p with the 4k? or is there another trick?

Sharyn
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Roman Pytkin Pekarek

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostMon Apr 07, 2014 6:33 am

frank : U must set same video standard in ATEM ..
http://www.media-planet.sk
http://www.stonepp.tv
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Darrell Sim

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostMon Apr 07, 2014 9:10 am

Hi Sharyn,

Thank you for highlighting the mistake. As listed in this link, http://images.blackmagicdesign.com/medi ... y_2014.pdf there is no mention about the HDMI Out of the Pocket Cinema Camera. On behalf of the company, I would like to apologise if there's any misunderstanding or inconvenience caused. Please allow me to bring this to the attention of the product manager.
Darrell Sim
Support Engineer
Blackmagic Design Asia
support-asia@blackmagicdesign.com
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Göran Diffner

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostMon Apr 07, 2014 11:28 am

.
Last edited by Göran Diffner on Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sharyn Ferrick

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostMon Apr 07, 2014 8:23 pm

hi Darrell
so does this mean that if you want a clean feed there is no way to get a 1080p output from the bmpc via hdmi? Sharyn
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Darrell Sim

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostTue Apr 08, 2014 2:22 am

Hi Sharyn,

At the moment, the Pocket Cinema Camera will not be able to generate a 1080p clean feed from the HDMI Out. A workaround such like using a Teranex to convert 1080i to 1080p would be required.
Darrell Sim
Support Engineer
Blackmagic Design Asia
support-asia@blackmagicdesign.com
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Sharyn Ferrick

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostTue Apr 08, 2014 6:21 am

Hi Darrell
I would say that a update to the software to fix all this and have an option on clean feed for 1080i and 1080p (since with the overlays the 1080p is avaiable) would be something that users would want. I do also think that the an update to really explain all of this more clearly
Sharyn
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Martin Kay

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostTue Apr 08, 2014 1:59 pm

Darrell Sim wrote:Hi,

Just to clarify all doubts. The ATEM Television Studio does work with the Pocket Cinema Camera. You'll need to turn overlays 'OFF' to get a 1080i signal. If overlays are 'ON', the image will be a 1080p signal.

Also ensure the frame rate is set to either 25 or 29.97 to show either 1080i50 or 1080i5994.

Do ensure that you do not use a HDMI cable which is more than 5m or 16ft.

With all due respect, Darrell, have you actually tried this? If so, and if it worked, you've evidently got a different Pocket Cinema Camera to my one :D .
I wonder if you're thinking that the HDMI on the Pocket should behave in the same way as the HD-SDI output from the BMCC & 4K camera? In my experience (and I've just double-checked again to make sure), it doesn't. It outputs 25p (or 29.97/30p) all the time, no matter whether the overlays are on or off. You do get a picture of sorts into an Atem TVS, but one in which the top half of the picture is interpreted as if it was one field, and the lower half the other field - which is not a usable 1080i50 or 1080i5994 signal.
So, in my experience, you can get a clean feed 25p (or 29.97/30p) HDMI signal without overlays, but not a signal that can be fed straight into a TVS, which is why (I'm guessing) BM have introduced the new Studio Camera with what might well be the same sensor and mount as in the Pocket Camera.
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Kwan

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostTue Apr 08, 2014 2:08 pm

zenvideo wrote:With all due respect, Darrell, have you actually tried this? If so, and if it worked, you've evidently got a different Pocket Cinema Camera to my one :D .
I wonder if you're thinking that the HDMI on the Pocket should behave in the same way as the HD-SDI output from the BMCC & 4K camera? In my experience (and I've just double-checked again to make sure), it doesn't. It outputs 25p (or 29.97/30p) all the time, no matter whether the overlays are on or off. You do get a picture of sorts into an Atem TVS, but one in which the top half of the picture is interpreted as if it was one field, and the lower half the other field - which is not a usable 1080i50 or 1080i5994 signal.
So, in my experience, you can get a clean feed 25p (or 29.97/30p) HDMI signal without overlays, but not a signal that can be fed straight into a TVS, which is why (I'm guessing) BM have introduced the new Studio Camera with what might well be the same sensor and mount as in the Pocket Camera.



After waiting for all new announcments, I settled to order 4 BMPC and ATEM TS today and now this, its sad
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Kwan

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostTue Apr 08, 2014 2:17 pm

Darrell Sim wrote:Hi Sharyn,

At the moment, the Pocket Cinema Camera will not be able to generate a 1080p clean feed from the HDMI Out. A workaround such like using a Teranex to convert 1080i to 1080p would be required.


or use HDMI to SDI mini battery convertor
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Darrell Sim

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostWed Apr 09, 2014 2:34 am

zenvideo wrote:With all due respect, Darrell, have you actually tried this? If so, and if it worked, you've evidently got a different Pocket Cinema Camera to my one :D .
I wonder if you're thinking that the HDMI on the Pocket should behave in the same way as the HD-SDI output from the BMCC & 4K camera? In my experience (and I've just double-checked again to make sure), it doesn't. It outputs 25p (or 29.97/30p) all the time, no matter whether the overlays are on or off. You do get a picture of sorts into an Atem TVS, but one in which the top half of the picture is interpreted as if it was one field, and the lower half the other field - which is not a usable 1080i50 or 1080i5994 signal.
So, in my experience, you can get a clean feed 25p (or 29.97/30p) HDMI signal without overlays, but not a signal that can be fed straight into a TVS, which is why (I'm guessing) BM have introduced the new Studio Camera with what might well be the same sensor and mount as in the Pocket Camera.


Hi Martin,

With due respect, we had tested the HDMI Out with the Teranex 2D, and it shows that with overlays set to OFF and frame rate at 25, the output signal will be 1080i50.

I do apologise beforehand for the poor picture quality as it was taken with a camera phone. Attached is a picture of a Pocket Camera connected to an ATEM TVS running 1080i50. You'll be able to see the image is perfectly fine. If you require further clarification, please do let us know.

Image

Kwan wrote:or use HDMI to SDI mini battery convertor


Hi Kwan,

No, the Battery Converter will not convert 1080p to 1080i. This converter does only a conversion in the transport type, not signal.
Darrell Sim
Support Engineer
Blackmagic Design Asia
support-asia@blackmagicdesign.com
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Thomas Wong

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostWed Apr 09, 2014 4:03 am

how about clean video to tv studio at 29.97f?
BMCC 2.5k, Canon 5D mk3
Canon 24-70mm f2.8, Canon 70-200mm f2.8 II, Rokinon 14mm cine T3.1
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Haakon Sundry

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostWed Apr 09, 2014 7:47 am

I believe this product will convert 1080p to 1080i:

http://decimator.com/Products/MD-CROSS/MD-CROSS.html

I struggled with this for ages when the original ATEMs came out and they didn't support 1080p. Blackmagic has never released any converter product that can go between the two formats.
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Martin Kay

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostWed Apr 09, 2014 11:43 am

Darrell Sim wrote:
zenvideo wrote:Hi Martin,

With due respect, we had tested the HDMI Out with the Teranex 2D, and it shows that with overlays set to OFF and frame rate at 25, the output signal will be 1080i50.

I do apologise beforehand for the poor picture quality as it was taken with a camera phone. Attached is a picture of a Pocket Camera connected to an ATEM TVS running 1080i50. You'll be able to see the image is perfectly fine. If you require further clarification, please do let us know.

Thanks for illustrating your demo, Darrell, it's very encouraging to know that it should work, even though mine very definitely doesn't. I've even tried updating the firmware today to v1.7, just in case there was some un-documented change since the v1.5.1 that I was running previously. But no, the HDMI output stays on 25p no matter what I do with the HDMI Overlays menu settings, confirmed by the OSD on my field monitor. Do you think I have a faulty camera? I'm not far from BM's UK base so could easily arrange to drop it in for them to look at (when everything's back to normal after NAB).
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Kevin Gale

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostWed Apr 09, 2014 3:10 pm

Image

I live in America. So I thought the same thing why not use a great camera on a great switcher. So I bought the pocket camera expecting it to work. So HDMI overlays are off, and the camera is at 29.97. ATEM is 1080 59.97i. And I'm using a 6 foot hdmi cable. It gives me this weird double picture/ghosting thing. Only on the ATEM, I used capture and the footage showed up normal???

Do I need to buy a up/down/cross thingy? Do I need to pray harder? Do I need to wait on a customer service line for 4 hours?
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Martin Kay

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostWed Apr 09, 2014 8:50 pm

kgaleb00 wrote:It gives me this weird double picture/ghosting thing. Only on the ATEM, ...

That sounds like what I tried to describe - the top/bottom halves of the picture being overlaid as two "interlaced" fields. Do you see the same thing on the Atem no matter whether the HDMI Overlays on the BMPCC are On or Off? And do you have any other monitors (or a TV?) with an On-Screen Display into which you can connect the BMPCC so that it can tell you what frame-rate is being output?
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Kevin Gale

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostThu Apr 10, 2014 12:52 am

I don't have any monitors and it only recognizes 29.97 or 30. Overlays have no effect good or bad.
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Göran Diffner

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostThu Apr 10, 2014 2:23 am

I have two BMPCC one works with 1080i50 and show up just perfectly fine in my ATEM tv studio but the other cam does not work. The one that works is the cam BM replaced cause the first was boken and could not record. I recently fell over a deal I could not resist so I bought a used cam too with the lillyput monitor and a cage and some more stuff. The used cam is probably round 6 months old or so, the guy a bought it from said so. Im thinking maby BM fixed something in later produced cameras so thats why one works and the other dont.

I read here somebody even tried to update the software but it was the same anyway. Ill try do that too, you never know stranger things have happen it might work for me though. Ill do it as soon as I can and report back. Ill broadcast it live to youtube while I do it to record what happens.
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Martin Kay

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostThu Apr 10, 2014 9:56 am

Goran Sweden wrote:I have two BMPCC, one works with 1080i50 and show up just perfectly fine in my ATEM tv studio but the other cam does not work. The one that works is the cam BM replaced cause the first was boken and could not record. I recently fell over a deal I could not resist so I bought a used cam too. The used cam is probably round 6 months old or so, the guy a bought it from said so. I'm thinking maybe BM fixed something in later produced cameras so that's why one works and the other don't.

That sounds like a plausible explanation, given that mine is an "early" camera from last September and it doesn't work with any of the firmware I've tried, including the new v1.7.
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Göran Diffner

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostThu Apr 10, 2014 11:25 am

I have tried every possible setting there is but the last used camera I bought will only output 1080p in 24 or 25 fps. Im on mac so I use CamTwist in combination with my ATEM TVs, I also have one mini recorder and one Intensity Pro capture card. If I install both in the same mac I guess I still could use both cams if I set up one for the ATEM and the other for the 1080p only output cam. Or screencap the 1080p cam from Resolve if CamTwist cannot se both capturedevices since they output different signals.

This wont help PC owners though so I suggest BMD look in to this cause there got to be an easy fix to make these "older" cams work 1980i50 too.

In fact the BMPCC is not so bad for live internet broadcasting it works pretty ok if you set it up right and maby some filters in front of the lens could do some good too. I got a bunch of them so Im going to test and see how it works.
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Göran Diffner

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostFri Apr 18, 2014 1:00 pm

Mac and camtwist can see both the intensity pro and the mini recorder so it works with one bmpcc hooked up to the mini and one to the atem.

Still only one of my bmpcc can output 1080i50 though and when I emailed and asked bmd they said it can only output 1080p so its very confusing for sure.
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Digital Vtr

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostSun Apr 20, 2014 11:01 pm

The BMPCC will output 1080i BUT you need to downgrade to 1.5 firmware!

Yes another undocumented feature, why do they do this?

Just done a 6 way studio discussion with 9 fixed cameras, all converted from a 5M Hdmi cable to SDI using 3 x ATEM1 original version, then fed via 40x40 BM matrix to Digitalvtr.co.uk recorders


2 days before the rig only one camera worked! This had been delivered in March, seemed to have 1.5.1 but it did in fact have 1.5!!!

Why is the firware version not reported in the menu ?

The 8 new cameras all worked once downgraded to 1.5, NB they still output P if overlays are on.

Used a BM studio recorder to observe hdmi signal format

Bryan
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Martin Kay

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostMon Apr 21, 2014 9:58 am

Digital Vtr wrote:The BMPCC will output 1080i BUT you need to downgrade to 1.5 firmware!

Yes another undocumented feature, why do they do this?

Very interesting - that's probably the one version I skipped!

Perhaps someone at Blackmagic would like to decide whether this feature should or shouldn't be in the BMPCC and, if so, restore it in the next release version and make it clear in the release notes!
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Göran Diffner

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostMon Apr 21, 2014 8:47 pm

This is good news. Strange that my newest cam works its just a couple of months since I got it so it should have a later firmware I think. Maby they send me an older produced cam when they replaced my first that was broken.

How do I downgrade?
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Hakan Taube Lyxzen

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostMon Apr 21, 2014 9:16 pm

Hakan Taube Lyxzen
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Digital Vtr

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostMon Apr 21, 2014 10:31 pm

To down grade just down load the version you require , then plug the camera into you pc/mac using a mini USB cable plugged into the socket to be found in the battery compartment.

You then get asked if you would like to update!

Forgot to mention 1.5 has an auto focus bug! The auto focus box does not appear in the centre of the picture but centre bottom, in 1.5.1 it is in the centre


Ideally there should be a menu option in the HDMI section to select i or p as desired.

NB if you ouput i the recording will still be 24,25 or 30 frames progressive so motion will be jerky on pans, I used 180deg shutter so I believe I shot with a 50th second shutter, we also pushed the ISO to 1600 ASA, very happy with noise levels


Bryan.
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Göran Diffner

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostTue Apr 22, 2014 1:11 am

Thanks
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Göran Diffner

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostTue Apr 22, 2014 2:04 pm

I downgraded to firmware 1.5 and vola we have 1080i so my ATEM TVs can see the other cam too now.

Thanks for the tips guys
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Jon Wood

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostTue Apr 22, 2014 9:43 pm

please excuse my butting in here but what you guys are doing is amazing and ground-breaking. my only question is - doesn't the BMPCC look flat without color correction in post? is it a usable look for live production?
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Göran Diffner

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostWed Apr 23, 2014 2:08 am

I would say it does look flat but I guess it is just another "look" if you look at it from that point of view lol. Probably the best bet is to go with the new studio cams. But the BMPCC works with the ATEM TVS if you stay on 1.5. To get a "good" image you will have to play around with lenses, lights and settings etc etc.
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Jon Wood

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostWed Apr 23, 2014 10:15 pm

ok thanks... :)
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Kwan

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostMon Apr 28, 2014 4:17 pm

Darrell Sim wrote:
zenvideo wrote:Hi Kwan,

No, the Battery Converter will not convert 1080p to 1080i. This converter does only a conversion in the transport type, not signal.



Hey Darrell,
I tested Pocket cam via HDMI to SDI Battery convertor and this setup works fine with ATEM Production Studio
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Andre Augustin

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostMon Apr 28, 2014 7:39 pm

My question about the BMPC is will it output 720p59.94/60 through HDMI?
Andre Augustin
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Chris Hocking

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostThu May 01, 2014 12:40 am

bifuteki wrote:My question about the BMPC is will it output 720p59.94/60 through HDMI?


No. On the Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera you're limited to:

1920 x 1080p23.98
1920 x 1080p24
1920 x 1080p25
1920 x 1080p29.97
1920 x 1080p30
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Göran Diffner

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostThu May 01, 2014 11:03 am

If you stay on firmware 1.5 the cam will also output 1080i 24 or 25 if you turn of overlays in the settings. I believe that this is only mentioned in this thread so maby we should make this clear.

This a live test broadcast I did to youtube its not much just me playing around with my guitar trying to figure out how to get a good sound. In this clip I did not get it right cause its only mono but I now know why. Like I said its not much to look at so scroll through it.

The cam is one of my BMPCC (cheap fujian cctv lens) hooked up to my ATEM TVS and I route the sound via my Saffire Pro 10 i/o soundcard spdif out output in to the ATEM. This time I used Logic 9 express as mixer but I will try with Harrison Mixbus too. The program out from the ATEM goes in to my Intensity Pro capturecard so both sound and video stream over hdmi in to the Intensity Pro. Im not sure yet so I have to do more tests but the sound doesnt seem to be so much delayed/out of synch.

Im only using one computer this time so its only 720. I will test with two soon, with two computers I can distribute the load and have one dedicated computer for the encoding. Hopefully I then can crank up the the speed to 1080 without my computer running at 80 %.

It really does look pretty ok even on a flatscreen tv fullscreen even in 720 so there is hope for sure.

In addition to this setup I use FMLE as encoder and CamTwist as software switcher side with the ATEM.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Mqb6-Om9SDo
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Denny Smith

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostThu May 01, 2014 7:29 pm

BM, please restore the option for 1080i with overlays off on pocket cam, without having to revert to 1.5.
Other option, as mentioned, would to add menu choice for 1080i or 1080P output when overlays are off. This way, camera could be used with switchers, or older ext. monitors, that only support 1080i.
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Mac Jaeger

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostThu May 01, 2014 10:37 pm

So the hardware _is_ capable of 1080i - good to know.

Please BMD, re-enable that feature - it's deerly needed!
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Göran Diffner

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostMon May 12, 2014 1:03 pm

Yes the cam can do it. My two bmpcc is working with my atem tvs and probably any souncard with spdif out can be hoocked up to the atem tvs audio in vith that bnc thingy (or what the heck its called) converter/adapter.

Im still testing the audio delay and what can be done softwarewize to fix it if its possible at all.
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Blaine Russom

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Re: BMPC - ATEM Television Studio

PostMon Jun 02, 2014 4:56 am

Wow you guys, this thread is a live saver!! I was so mad all day that the BMPCC would not work with the ATEM TVS i purchased because the retailer here doesn't do refunds on gear over 1K... So glad I found this thread with such valuable advice.. THANK YOU!!!
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