ursa mini - live

Questions about ATEM Switchers, Camera Converter and everything live!
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Tomas Lecky

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ursa mini - live

PostTue Oct 06, 2015 6:48 am

Greetings,
I have some questions about Ursa Mini..
- is it possible control this cam over SDI return (iris, colors…) from ATEM?
- is it possible remote B4 lens?
- this one has TC input, but is it possible use TC embedded in SDI return?

Thank you.
Have a nice day.
Tom
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Gary Adams

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostTue Oct 06, 2015 1:52 pm

Hello Tomas. The URSA Mini will be capable of remote CCU style control from the ATEM switcher in the same way the Studio and Micro Studio Cameras work. This will work with both the EF and PL mount models. If you have the PL mount model and install the B4 mount adapter, you may power the B4 lens and the Iris control will be available at the ATEM switcher. You would still have local control over zoom and focus as you would expect. The TC is intended for recording. The ATEM will not pass TC at this time.

Regards, Gary
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David Columbia

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostTue Oct 06, 2015 4:58 pm

Gary Adams wrote:Hello Tomas. The URSA Mini will be capable of remote CCU style control from the ATEM switcher in the same way the Studio and Micro Studio Cameras work. This will work with both the EF and PL mount models. If you have the PL mount model and install the B4 mount adapter, you may power the B4 lens and the Iris control will be available at the ATEM switcher. You would still have local control over zoom and focus as you would expect. The TC is intended for recording. The ATEM will not pass TC at this time.

Regards, Gary



Gary,

Will the control signals that are carried through SDI from the switcher work through the Blackmagic fiber converters? Fiber>SDI Mini Converter or the Camera Converters?

Thanks,

David
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Matthew Baum

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostTue Oct 06, 2015 8:19 pm

The URSA Mini will be capable of remote CCU style control from the ATEM switcher in the same way ...

AWESOME!!! So glad to read this confirmation. My reseller and I are putting a Live Broadcast Rig with Studio/MicroStudio/ATEM2 and all... The sticking point was a strong handheld unit for this House Of Worship Install, and if the URSA Mini can support the CCU control from the control room, then we are in business. I'm really going to bat for BMD for this quote.

The big question is WHEN!?!?! When can we expect that software update which would enable this essential function?
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Tomas Lecky

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostTue Oct 06, 2015 9:39 pm

Hello Garry,
great to hear this 8-)
2ME Atem has embeded TC in SDI outputs. Id like use them for recording in cameras if is it possible.
What about communication ? Is it possible use headset for camera guy for speak to director and vice versa over embedded audio chanel 15-16 ?
And tally on camera?

Thanks you very much
Tom
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Gary Adams

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostWed Oct 07, 2015 3:13 pm

I can answer some of this. The SDI control will pass through fiber converters as well as Videohubs and distribution devices with our products. It should pass through any SDI device that doesn't strip metadata. For long runs with the URSA Mini, Studio Camera, or Micro Studio Camera, I would recommend using fiber.

The URSA Mini does support communication with our Talkback converter. The headset jack on the Mini is of the iPhone style where microphone and earpiece use the same connector. The Micro Studio Camera is the same in this regard. There is also a tally LED on the back of the URSA Mini viewfinder that is supported as well as on the EVF if you are using one.

The timecode question is tricky. I believe the only timecode recording on the URSA models requires it to be fed in the timecode input. But we can certainly add the ability to extract timcode from SDI as a feature request.

Regards, Gary
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Tom_Bassford

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostThu Oct 08, 2015 1:31 pm

What about Tally and Return Video? Can you push the returns button on a B4 lens and view the input SDI in the viewfinder / monitor?
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Matthew Baum

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostThu Oct 08, 2015 9:09 pm

Gary -
So I'm getting mixed signals.

My reseller just received this from Eric Pestana-

CCU functionality from our ATEM switchers only works with the Blackmagic Studio cameras. There are no CCU functionalities w/ the URSA cameras. I do not have any kind of information as to if/ when this might be addressed.

All the Best,
Eric Pestana
Technical Support Representative
Blackmagic Design Inc.


Perhaps you can provide a timeline as to when these features might be rolled out.
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JohnBengston

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostThu Oct 08, 2015 9:18 pm

Matthew Baum wrote:Gary -
So I'm getting mixed signals.
......
Perhaps you can provide a timeline as to when these features might be rolled out.


Welcome to to the wonderful world of being a BMD customer.

You're goin' luv it.
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Gary Adams

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostFri Oct 09, 2015 12:51 am

Hello Matthew. I must apologize for any confusion with the CCU control capabilities and our cameras. Actually, Eric is correct that the URSA camera model does not support ATEM CCU functionality. At IBC, a few weeks ago, we were all introduced to the new functionality of the "URSA Mini" camera. Because of earlier delays, they were able to incorporate the B4 lens interface to the URSA Mini PL mount model. Because of this, they were able to design ATEM CCU control functionality with both of the URSA Mini models. Both the URSA Mini EF and PL may be controlled by the ATEM if you feed Program video back to the camera which is very similar to the way we control the Television Studio Camera and the new Micro Studio Camera. Tally and talkback are also supported.

The URSA and URSA Mini are different camera models and have different capabilities. Again, I realize this may be confusing so please PM me if you have any further questions.

Tom, your question is a good one and I do not know the answer yet. I will try to get back to you on this.

Best Regards, Gary
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Gary Adams

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostFri Oct 09, 2015 9:26 pm

Tom. I was able to verify that the Return button on the B4 lens will switch Program in the viewfinder.

Regards, Gary
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Tom_Bassford

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostFri Oct 09, 2015 10:41 pm

That's very promising..

will have to test these for low light / stupid high contrast rock n roll lighting, but they are looking to be getting close to the camera i've been wanting for a decade. (like the DSR-570, a quality camcorder with studio option for an affordable price)

I won't bother to ask about release dates but I'm keen to see one in the flesh as soon as possible :)

cheers
tom
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Xtreemtec

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostTue Oct 13, 2015 7:23 pm

Gary Adams wrote:Actually, Eric is correct that the URSA camera model does not support ATEM CCU functionality. At IBC, a few weeks ago, we were all introduced to the new functionality of the "URSA Mini" camera.
I wonder why not.. It does have a SDI input so hardware could supoort it probabbly.. :roll:

But i'm happy the Ursa Mini does have it!! Big +
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Tom_Bassford

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostWed Oct 14, 2015 1:58 pm

There is no lens control socket on the big URSA so it wouldn't make sense to try and rack it from the atem.


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Patrick Rinner

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostFri Oct 16, 2015 2:19 am

Is there a way to use the tally through SDI with a field monitor? Is there any field monitor that supports tally via SDI signal?
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Robert Betzner

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSat Oct 17, 2015 9:49 am

Patrick,

the Ursa Mini has it's own SDI viewfinder connector. As I understand it, you will see the tally indication in this viewfinder as a red rectangle around the picture as in the old studio cameras.

@all
I pointed it out in the cinema forum that you can only use the Ursa mini in 2k mode if you are using an B 4-lens. Because with that you'll have to run the camera in crop mode that switches the camera to HD-resolution.

We would really buy a lot of 4,6k Ursa minis if BMD would make a dumb EF mount in addition to the B4 mount. That would be a fantastic combination to use it live with B4 lenses in HD and for higher-end field productions with our existing Zeiss-primes with canon mount. If a B4 mount is possible than it should also be possible to make a dumb passive EF mount.

Robert
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Denny Smith

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSat Oct 17, 2015 4:52 pm

Robert, adding a EF or Nikon dumb mount to the 4.6K Mini would depend on what the camera's lens turret FFD is without the lens mount attached. A PL lens is longer than either the Nikon 48mm FFD and the even shorter Canon EF at 44mm. I personally would like to see aNikin mount possibility, which is closer to thr PL mount FFD. But, we will have to wait and see what BM comes up with.
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Robert Betzner

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSun Oct 18, 2015 12:49 am

Denny,

It should be possible because as I understand it, you have to remove the PL-mount to attach the B4 mount. That has been mentioned in several IBC product videos. So FFD shouldn't be an issue then.

And an EF mount would be a better choice because it is easy to convert a Nikon mount to EF with a simple adapter ring.

Cheers

Robert
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Patrick Rinner

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSun Oct 18, 2015 2:37 pm

Robert Betzner wrote:Patrick,

the Ursa Mini has it's own SDI viewfinder connector. As I understand it, you will see the tally indication in this viewfinder as a red rectangle around the picture as in the old studio cameras.

Robert


This means that there is no way to connect a LED lamp to the ursa mini for on-air indication, so that the person in front of the camera also seees when when he goes live?
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Denny Smith

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostMon Oct 19, 2015 2:41 am

Robert, PL FFD is 52mm, and Canon EF is 44mm, that's an 8mm difference, add 2mm for EF lens mount min. thickness, the Ursa Mini lens turret would need to be 42mm. B4 is 48mm, so the PL mount could be 4mm thick plus 2mm in spacers to adjust FFD is doable, but a 10mm difference is a stretch, and in the video, the PL mount looks to be only 4-6mm thick. The lens turret FFD would need to be only 42mm or less to allow the shorter EF, or Nikon F (46.5mm). We are not talking about adapters than can vary in length to accommodate longer FFD mounts. The key issue here is the lens turret has to be short enough to accommodate a 44mm FFD lens mount. Cheers
Last edited by Denny Smith on Fri Oct 23, 2015 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Felix Huerlimann

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostThu Oct 22, 2015 9:41 am

Gary Adams wrote:The URSA Mini does support communication with our Talkback converter. The headset jack on the Mini is of the iPhone style where microphone and earpiece use the same connector.

It seems, that the URSA mini is a great camera!
How do we have to connect the camera with fibre? Do I need an ATEM Camera Converter (but 4k not supported)? When the headset is connected to the URSA Mini, can I use the PTT button on the Camera Converter, because the camera has no PTT?
Do you have a connection diagram with a complete studio setting?


Felix
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Gary Adams

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostThu Oct 22, 2015 9:10 pm

Hello Felix. I can answer part of this. To use fiber with the URSA Mini, you would use the Optical Fiber 4K and connect back to the Studio or Talkback Converter. The URSA Mini has an Apple style headphone jack which supports the microphone for talkback but there is no PTT on the camera. The Camera Converter would give you this as you say but not for 4K signals.

From an earlier question in the thread. There is an LED on the back of the viewfinder that usually faces the talent which will indicate tally on the URSA Mini.

Regards, Gary
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martin.dwight

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostTue Oct 27, 2015 6:22 am

Hi Gary,

I have a question about the camera converter. Since it has only two SDI connections, one out and one in, how do I get reference sent over optical fiber as well?

Maybe I missed the answer earlier in this thread, if so, excuse my ignorance :D

Thanks!


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Tony Rivera

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostTue Oct 27, 2015 9:44 pm

martin.dwight wrote:I have a question about the camera converter. Since it has only two SDI connections, one out and one in, how do I get reference sent over optical fiber as well?


As Gary eluded to, you'd need a Optical Fiber 4k Mini Converter in order to get the fiber connection into the URSAs SDI port.
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David Hung

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostWed Oct 28, 2015 11:40 am

I heard at BM's road show that B4 lens will not have 4K ( only 1080 crop) on the URSA Mini
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Robert Betzner

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostWed Oct 28, 2015 12:19 pm

David,

they already confirmed this. With a B4 lens you will only get HD (1920x1080) in windowed sensor mode. That's mainly because of the small image circle that a B4 lens is able to deliver. You won't be able to cover the whole sensor with a B4 lens.

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Felix Huerlimann

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostWed Oct 28, 2015 9:09 pm

Tony Rivera wrote:As Gary eluded to, you'd need a Optical Fiber 4k Mini Converter in order to get the fiber connection into the URSAs SDI port.

Why does the ATEM Camera Converter doesn't work with the URSA mini? With the B4 adapter I have to produce in 1080 anyway.
And with a 4k Mini Converter I have no intercom and no tally. What's the use of the ATEM Talkback Converter 4k, when there's no 4k Camera Converter?
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Tom_Bassford

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostWed Oct 28, 2015 10:23 pm

Camera converter will work with URSA in HD mode...
but you don't need it as the tally and talkback is built into the camera. (though possibly cameramen will be listen only without the camera converter PTT button)

you can send either HDSDI or HDSDI over Fibre via converters - so long as your returns feed is plugged into an ATEM output you'll get tally and returns from that switcher. If you use the 2me or the 4k studio converter then you can run at 4k (not with a b4 lens though)

regarding the genlock question that everyone at BMD has ignored then you will likely find that the camera references to the incoming SDI returns feed so you will be synchronous within the atem ecosystem.

Maybe BMD can send me a camera so i can confirm all this to be actually correct? But as far as anyone cn tell from reading between the lines this is how it is all supposed to work.

cheers
tom
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martin.dwight

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostThu Oct 29, 2015 7:06 pm

Tom, do you mean that the camera will use the SDI in for referencing? Is that even possible? Which part of the chain would act as the sync generator?
From what I can gather the sync doesn't seem to be embedded in to the return signal, but rather has to be sent separately to the ref input on the camera, am I mistaken?

Sorry if i miss understood you, im here to learn :)


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Sander Vreuls

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostThu Oct 29, 2015 11:35 pm

Any video signal has to start somewhere. Which means you can have equipment look at that signal and have their own signal start at the same timing. The sync generator in this case is the ATEM, or the sync generator feeding your ATEM ref.

Ref is usually an analog blackburst or tri level video signaal, though soms equipment also takes digital (SDI) ref. In the past we have used different analog video signals to reference older Sony ccu's together.. Doesn't have to be black Burst..
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Gary Adams

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostFri Oct 30, 2015 5:39 pm

Sorry for some late responses as I find this an interesting thread. The camera converter product supports a wide range of HD type resolutions and frame rates, however it does not support 4K as has been previously stated. Note it it not necessary to use the camera converter with the URSA Mini unless you want to use fiber and the PTT for the intercom. If using the Camera Converter with the Mini, you would need to push the Program button on the converter to get Program out the SDI to feed the Mini.

If you don't need the PTT of the Camera Converter, you can use the Mini Converter Optical Fiber for bi directional SDI In/Out for the camera. This fiber may be connected to the Talkback Converter and will support all of the features discussed.

Hopefully to clear things up, the URSA Mini (All models including PL and EF) support ATEM Camera Control as well as Tally and Talkback. So this means the URSA Mini, Micro Studio Camera, and Television Studio Camera all have similar features with regards to ATEM CCU Control.

The URSA Mini PL mount can be modified with our B4 Lens adapter and will provide mounting and control of the B4 Lens in both a traditional camera operator style and via the ATEM CCU control. The URSA Mini EF does not have the B4 connector but does have the active EF mount for supported lenses.

Note you can use the B4 Lens in 4K mode by using a 2x extender but there are compromises to this, one being loss of light, and most lenses of this type will probably will look soft in 4K.

With regards to Genlock or Reference (my favorite subject), All of the camera models I listed above will reference three ways. Internal, External, and Program. The Program reference is the most logical when using the ATEM, since the Program Return feed is designed to provide the necessary timing for our cameras which will minimize the sensor to SDI output delay. While it seems illogical to people of my age, the program output of the ATEM is not dependent upon any input so this becomes a great reference for our cameras.

Note the CCU control in the URSA Mini has not been enabled in firmware yet but will be.

This is a lot to consume so feel free to PM me if you have further questions.

Regards, Gary
Gary Adams
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Denny Smith

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostFri Oct 30, 2015 6:45 pm

Thanks Gary for the update and clarification. One question, is the Micro Studio headphone jack a Apple type TRRS to support Talk back, or just a regular TRR stereo headphone connection? Thanks.
Cheers
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Gary Adams

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSun Nov 01, 2015 4:33 pm

Hello Denny. Good question. The Headphone jack on the Micro Studio Camera does support talkback using the iPhone style headset and microphone. This is a similar jack to the one on the Camera Converter and the URSA Mini. All would support this type of headset/microphone capability. It is a 4 pin connector.

Regards, Gary
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Matthew Baum

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostTue Nov 03, 2015 2:00 am

anybody receive the Ursa Mini PL anywhere?

Needing to place my streaming rig order at month's end and really anxious to see these in the wild
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostTue Nov 03, 2015 8:35 pm

This all very promising

BUT

Will there be an option to output 1080i ! ?
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostMon Nov 16, 2015 5:52 am

I've been planning out a Blackmagic 4k studio workflow and it seems like the camera converter only passing 1080 is a bottleneck. Surely a camera converter 2 that passes 4k is on the horizon?
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostTue Dec 01, 2015 8:27 pm

Gary Adams wrote:Sorry for some late responses as I find this an interesting thread. The camera converter product supports a wide range of HD type resolutions and frame rates, however it does not support 4K as has been previously stated. Note it it not necessary to use the camera converter with the URSA Mini unless you want to use fiber and the PTT for the intercom. If using the Camera Converter with the Mini, you would need to push the Program button on the converter to get Program out the SDI to feed the Mini.

If you don't need the PTT of the Camera Converter, you can use the Mini Converter Optical Fiber for bi directional SDI In/Out for the camera. This fiber may be connected to the Talkback Converter and will support all of the features discussed.

Hopefully to clear things up, the URSA Mini (All models including PL and EF) support ATEM Camera Control as well as Tally and Talkback. So this means the URSA Mini, Micro Studio Camera, and Television Studio Camera all have similar features with regards to ATEM CCU Control.

The URSA Mini PL mount can be modified with our B4 Lens adapter and will provide mounting and control of the B4 Lens in both a traditional camera operator style and via the ATEM CCU control. The URSA Mini EF does not have the B4 connector but does have the active EF mount for supported lenses.

Note you can use the B4 Lens in 4K mode by using a 2x extender but there are compromises to this, one being loss of light, and most lenses of this type will probably will look soft in 4K.

With regards to Genlock or Reference (my favorite subject), All of the camera models I listed above will reference three ways. Internal, External, and Program. The Program reference is the most logical when using the ATEM, since the Program Return feed is designed to provide the necessary timing for our cameras which will minimize the sensor to SDI output delay. While it seems illogical to people of my age, the program output of the ATEM is not dependent upon any input so this becomes a great reference for our cameras.

Note the CCU control in the URSA Mini has not been enabled in firmware yet but will be.

This is a lot to consume so feel free to PM me if you have further questions.

Regards, Gary


Hi Gary,

I have ursa mini 4k and ATEM televsion studio and I can't get ursa mini to work on the switcher. Did I not set it right?

URSA Mini Setting:

Resolution: 1920 x 1080
Sensor Area: Full
Project Frame Rate: 59.94
Sensor Frame Rate: Match

SDI Mode: HD

ATEM Version: 6.6.1
URSA Mini Firmware: 2.8.1
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Tony Rivera

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostFri Dec 04, 2015 10:09 pm

The URSA Mini does not output interlaced signals.
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Tom_Bassford

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostFri Dec 04, 2015 10:20 pm

oh for christs sake.

so near and yet so far.
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostFri Dec 04, 2015 11:18 pm

WOW! There goes our studio upgrade plans.
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Harry Parker

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSun Dec 06, 2015 11:32 pm

Tony Rivera wrote:The URSA Mini does not output interlaced signals.


LOL... Well done BMD. Way to go excluding a significant portion of you potential market. :roll:
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Philipp Peyer

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostThu Mar 24, 2016 12:49 pm

The last manual of the Ursa Mini doesn`t say anything about the CCU-Controll via SDI.
Did you drop this feature?
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George Milnes II

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostFri Apr 01, 2016 1:12 am

As I'm also trying to plan a 4K live production/streaming build, I'm very interested in where the URSA Mini stands in regards to this type of production. I was really looking at using it for a sidelines handheld unit with BMD Studio 4K's for booth cameras. AND hoping to run all at 60p. Is this not realistically possible? Via spec sheets on all products, this SEEMS possible, but... :?

Is the URSA Mini's firmware been updated to cover all the above posts' features mentioned? I will need to make financial budgeting decisions in the very near future (30-60 days) and would like to get a clear roadmap utilizing BMD solutions, but if not, I'll need to look at other vendors. I'm interested if any broadcast solutions are revealed at NAB.
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JohnBengston

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostFri Apr 01, 2016 1:25 am

Tony Rivera wrote:The URSA Mini does not output interlaced signals.


If this wasn't a joke, it is truly hilarious.
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Tarek Saneh

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostFri Apr 01, 2016 9:42 am

Hi all,
The broadcast standard is interlaced, so blackmagic need to implement this feature with a firmware update.
We need to see the picture quality when using UM 4k or 4.6K in crop mode with HD b4 lens, i dont know if the image quality will be on par with a 2\3 3CMOS camera or even 1\2 3CMOS camera.
1/2 inch camera like the PXW 200 if the image out of it is better then Ursa 4.6k in crop mode for live work, so there is no reason to use the UM with b4. Image quality is more important then CCU control in my opinion.
Tarek Saneh
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http://www.wonderweb.ae
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JohnBengston

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostFri Apr 01, 2016 11:14 pm

Tarek Saneh wrote:The broadcast standard is interlaced, so blackmagic need to implement this feature with a firmware update.


And until they do, can we just stop mentioning this camera on the Live Production sub-forum.

It's 24 hours since I read Tony's comments, and I'm still laughing. What kind of decision making process concludes with this outcome?

What is it? 95% maybe 99% of all broadcast television is interlaced. Sure users can propose working 3G or 4K and down-converting the output, but that argument misses the point the completely.

I note that Tony didn't include the word "currently", nor did he post a "I'll pass this request on to the project managers". So Tony, if that post is coming to this topic soon. Please consider "What on earth were you thinking?" as a better message to pass on.
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Tarek Saneh

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSat Apr 02, 2016 5:10 am

I have a feeling that this NAB they will untroduce a new studio camera with b4 mount
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Tom_Bassford

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSat Apr 02, 2016 7:15 am

I bet that if they do that it will still be P only.


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Tarek Saneh

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSat Apr 02, 2016 8:18 am

Tom_Bassford wrote:I bet that if they do that it will still be P only.


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Looooool
Tarek Saneh
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Philipp Peyer

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSat Apr 02, 2016 11:20 am

Tarek Saneh wrote:Hi all,
[...] . Image quality is more important then CCU control in my opinion.


If i use Fibre to connect my Camera to my switcher it would be usefull to get a CCU-Controll, I´m using the Mini for Live and Film production, currently only the Studiocameras are controllable via CCU - it would be great to controll all cameras via CCU to get a good matching picture for all cameras in the production
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