ursa mini - live

Questions about ATEM Switchers, Camera Converter and everything live!
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Xtreemtec

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostWed Apr 13, 2016 12:01 pm

John, Where is that LIKE button if you need it :lol:
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSat Apr 16, 2016 1:59 am

Tom_Bassford wrote:Yes but the firmware is still too early, they haven't done the CCU control yet and are only supporting digital B4 lenses etc etc.


Tom, Correct on the CCU control but the 3.1 firmware does support analog lens. My UM4k with B4 mount works with my Fujinon lens even the old ones. The lack of CCU control is very frustrating to say the least however.
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JohnBengston

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSat Apr 16, 2016 12:04 pm

Xtreemtec wrote:John, Where is that LIKE button if you need it :lol:


Thanks for the support, on this crazy thread, whilst it remains open and continues to pop to the top of the forum, I'm keep pushing my point, and reiterating the silly things other have said on it, just to prevent it being considered a topic worth reading here.

It's a topic marked "URSA MINI - Live", and it's in the "Live Production forum".

but.........

It is not compatible with lots of the ATEM models.
It is not compatible with 1.5G HD formats 720p or 1080i.
It does not have industry standard 4K Quad link capabilities.
The ATEM CCU is not supported in the camera yet.

Hopefully..... maybe....... one day it'll be a camera worth discussing on the "Live Production" forum, but not now.

BMD most likely agree, as since Tony dropped the interlace clarification, no-one from BMD has been back has been back to comment.

The topic itself is off-topic since Tony made clear the camera won't support interlace, it's an oxymoron if you like.....
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Tom_Bassford

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSat Apr 16, 2016 12:14 pm

Come on John the only way to get things moved to off topic is to start asking about shipping timescales.

We are all waiting with baited breath for the email from Grant this afternoon where he tells us that they are refreshing the whole ATEM range and dropping support for anything below 8k. Preorder now for a disappointing wait for 1 year at which point we will send you a different product with a different spec and a range of inconsistent faults.




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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSat Apr 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Tom_Bassford wrote:Come on John the only way to get things moved to off topic is to start asking about shipping timescales.


Let's not do that, but keeping it light hearted is the way

Tom_Bassford wrote:We are all waiting with baited breath for the email from Grant this afternoon where he tells us that they are refreshing the whole ATEM range and dropping support for anything below 8k.


Do you think so???? WOW exciting, although I think 8K will be a bit of a pain to transfer between machines, but I guess 10G networks are coming down, so maybe...

Tom_Bassford wrote:Preorder now for a disappointing wait for 1 year at which point we will send you a different product with a different spec and a range of inconsistent faults.


Too negative!!, think positive!!!! 2016 could be the year all issues and missing bits that annoy customers are fixed with every product in the BMD lines.

I keep saying to people "don't try to predict the future", you can only "gamble on it".
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Tom_Bassford

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSat Apr 16, 2016 12:49 pm

JohnBengston wrote:
Do you think so???? WOW exciting, although I think 8K will be a bit of a pain to transfer between machines, but I guess 10G networks are coming down, so maybe...

What over IP like the rest of the industry is doing? Nah we will get 48G SDI. It will go down a single BNC for about an inch.

Too negative!!, think positive!!!! 2016 could be the year all issues and missing bits that annoy customers are fixed with every product in the BMD lines.

.
we can but hope.
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSat Apr 16, 2016 1:20 pm

Tom_Bassford wrote:What over IP like the rest of the industry is doing? Nah we will get 48G SDI. It will go down a single BNC for about an inch.


I'm so unsure about this, doing Video Production over IP is "a thing", along with all the problems it has, the solutions are being worked on by very clever people.

Moving all your render and media server workloads to the cloud, means that the majority of the mixing can be done in the cloud, NLEs can renderer in the cloud, sure you end up needing a camera cut or "studio mix" or "event mix" to be done at site, but everything else can move, thus OB trucks can get a lot lighter, and expensive city centre studio facility equipment racks rooms can be reduced in size, which combined the ability to spin-up resource as and when it is needed, can equal big costs savings. There is without any doubt "method to the madness".

Do I agree with the concept??? Ummmm not sure??? Is it happening?? Definitely "yes"!! Very sharp people are working very hard on this. Therefore I think it's very difficult to predict where the live broadcast industry is going, probably totally impossible - as some kind of currently unimaginable hybrid will eventually emerge as the efficient solution for broadcasts small, medium and large.

What is required, in my opinion, is good tools that offer good quality whilst maintaining industry standards for as wide compatibility as possible - but hey, that's mainly coz system integration is my thing!! ;)

Like you, very excited what will be announced by Grant in the coming days, perhaps if we spin this topic into a "what exciting new things are BMD bringing to NAB?", "what will different people find useful? and in what kind of use-cases", and "Will they ever release a camera with a set of features and mounts suitable for live production?". Surely we'll get it locked that way?
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSat Apr 16, 2016 4:31 pm

JohnBengston wrote:Like you, very excited what will be announced by Grant in the coming days, perhaps if we spin this topic into a "what exciting new things are BMD bringing to NAB?", "what will different people find useful? and in what kind of use-cases", and "Will they ever release a camera with a set of features and mounts suitable for live production?". Surely we'll get it locked that way?

Because of Last NAB he showed a Teranex mini that could connect to a fiber switch and going IP..
I think Monday we have the Whole big email that SDI is dead and we all have to move to IP :o :lol:

It doesn't get more excited than that right.. No backwards compatibility.. 12G is gone.. and have a nice day :mrgreen:

Haha no i have no idea what is upcoming.. Sure i will check my email monday every half our..
The only thing i wish for is that they put the release dates as such that they know they can ship out in large quantitys.. I don't mind if they say this product will be available in septber or october this year.. As long as we can count on it. Or even better that they just count +2 months on every product and if they deliver earlier it is better right.. ;)

It's saves a lot of unsatisfied customers.. And there is no competitor that can develop the same product in those 6 or 8 months to beat them to it..
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostMon Apr 18, 2016 6:29 pm

Well worth watching the video on the main BMD website. My previous criticisms are most invalidated by the latest firmware update for this camera.
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostMon Apr 18, 2016 6:36 pm

Grant is doing it. BM is adding full studio control to the Ursa Mini, including 1080i HD output.
Next I will describe the new software update that turns URSA Mini into a fantastic high end studio camera because it adds all the features broadcasters loved about our studio cameras including built in color corrector, lens control, talkback, tally and the ability to change settings all via external SDI. Now this is all available in URSA Mini so it can be used as a studio camera for live production.

This update also adds 1080 HD interlaced video and a video lookup table on the SDI output, so you can use the camera with any broadcast switcher. Most of the studio camera features lie dormant until you plug the camera’s SDI program input into a switcher that supports the SDI control protocol. Our ATEM switchers, even the $995 ATEM Television Studio model, all output full SDI camera control so using these powerful features is easy!

The headphone connection will now become your talkback headset connection and you will be able to hear the director. The viewfinder record indicator will now become a tally indicator and when your camera is on air the viewfinder light will illuminate. Any settings the switcher operator wants to change can be done remotely so camera operator so can focus on the live action!
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostMon Apr 18, 2016 7:34 pm

JohnBengston wrote:Well worth watching the video on the main BMD website. My previous criticisms are most invalidated by the latest firmware update for this camera.

:lol: :lol: It was coming.. But you always have to wait and see it to believe it right..

Waiting for the first reactions of anybody that has the new firmware up and running and testing..
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Tarek Saneh

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostMon Apr 18, 2016 7:37 pm

Great day for us (live production people) :D :D :lol: :lol:
this is the camera that we have been waiting for URSA min 4.6 PL with B4 adapter
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Haakon Sundry

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostTue Apr 19, 2016 7:09 am

Looks like you got your interlaced, John. Just don't ever force me to watch any footage you shoot with it. :P
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Tom_Bassford

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostTue Apr 19, 2016 7:18 am

Best not watch any live TV ever then if you don't want to see 1080i....

Really this all looks great. Blackmagic seem to of done exactly what everyone wanted and used this NAB to release refinements and upgrades to the existing product line, rather than announcing a load of new products. The new studio viewfinder looks great and the pricing makes sense for something with a lot of mechanical components. The way it acts as a full remote for the camera is really interesting and will be great for jibs and cranes.

It's going to take a while for them to actually ship any of this of course but it's pretty exciting to see them heading back in the right direction.


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Re: ursa mini - live

PostTue Apr 19, 2016 9:30 am

Tom_Bassford wrote:It's going to take a while for them to actually ship any of this of course but it's pretty exciting to see them heading back in the right direction.


I think that is slightly unfair:
Mini-converter update 7.0 available yesterday!!!
ATEM Switchers update 6.8 available yesterday!!!
Black Magic Camera update 3.2 available yesterday!!! (very relevant to this topic)

New products will of course ship on BMDs special relativity space-time continuum, but even here; Grant says several times in his video "In Stock Now" for several items including the new 4K Duplicator / recorder device, which given it's got a hardware H.265 encoder in it. I say "fair enough" and "very well done" to all the people working at BMD who must have been very busy!!!

Tom_Bassford wrote:Best not watch any live TV ever then if you don't want to see 1080i....

I've really tried to avoid getting into an "i vs p" debate other than to say without "i" it shouldn't be being discussed on a Live Production forum.

I will add, in my opinion, motion artifacts are less intrusive when watching interlaced video - de-interlaced properly by a Television than with 1.5G 1080p24/25/30 frame rates used by many online services and media - but certainly not all shown on a computer. Doing a BOB-deinterlace on a computer screen as a method to judge interlaced video quality is a mistake.

Now I am looking forward to experimenting with this camera in coming months, and encourage anyone who wants to discuss doing Live Production with it, to do it on this this topic. This topic now makes sense (except for maybe page 2)
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostTue Apr 19, 2016 9:54 am

Yeah the it's gonna take a while to ship any of this was perhaps an overstatement. Though "in stock now" means "in China now" rather than on the shelf in your local store. So I suspect we are talking about a few days lead time on any of the new hardware. (Holdan are saying stock due on the 20th April so you may be able to get your hands on it by the end of the week)

Re interlacing then yes 50/60 cadence is *required* for smooth vision. If 24/25/30 p was good enough then interlace would never of been a thing. Cinema's continued obsession with 24p is frankly bizarre, though even that seems to be on the way out as people are finally getting to see some high framerate stuff. ( Ang Lee's 'Billy Lynn' seems to be making a big impact at NAB with 120fps 4k 3d)

But whatever, there is no discussion here really, 1080i is the current broadcast standard and 4k broadcast will be at 50/60 FPS minimum too.


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Peter Wood

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostTue Apr 19, 2016 9:56 am

My very initial observations with the long awaited 3.2 are mostly good.
Great to have 1080i
The CCU functions are great however its gunna take some getting used to. (Im coming from a traditional broadcast CCU/RCP background). The iris seems a little 'clunky' though.
The Tally indication doesn't display on the 5" flip out (unless there is a hidden setting)
I could only display tally on my UM4k that has the EVF.
Still very early days but its great overall.
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Yoann Lebreton

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostTue Apr 19, 2016 3:02 pm

Hi,

Now that the Ursa mini looks a kind of a studio camera.
What is the trick to connect the ursa mini 12G sdi out to the atem television studio 4K
you have to convert 12G sdi to fiber to get a good distance between the 2 equipment isn' it?
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostWed Apr 20, 2016 4:16 am

The 12G SDI out on the Mini will connect to the ATEM without any adapter required. You can do unto 100-foot runs of high bandwidth 3/6G SDI for HD with out any issues. Long runs like 200-300 feet are better done with fiber, using BM fiber/SDI converters.
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JohnBengston

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostWed Apr 20, 2016 7:45 am

Worth being really clear on this, to do 12G 4K, you need the 12G ATEM. Currently only available in 2ME form, at $5995.

So when Yoann is asking what the trick is to get 12G URSA to ATEM Television Studio 4K. The safest answer to give, is "No, stop, you can't do that, don't even try".

4K on most ATEMs is limited to 23.98/24/25/29.97/30p.
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostWed Apr 20, 2016 7:57 am

your're right John.

I made a mistake.

what is the trick to use ursa mini 12G SDI with a 12G Atem for long distance. Because there is no 12G sdi to fiber. The only option today is to use a common sdi but with poor distances?
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Tarek Saneh

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostWed Apr 20, 2016 11:59 am

We need fibre optic cable solution with power, a box with fiber converter and power, the cable will have 2 strand optic and power for the camera and converter
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Dave Johnstone

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostWed Apr 20, 2016 12:33 pm

Hi Tarek,

Standard SMPTE fibre hybrid cable has 2x optical, 2x copper signal and 2x copper power (plus shield). Gepco make breakout assemblies for the individual copper/optical strands. You can then hook your camera converter to the breakout cable.

Regards,

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Tarek Saneh

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostWed Apr 20, 2016 12:47 pm

Thx Dave i will email Gepco for a complete solution
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Raphaël Jacquot

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostWed Apr 20, 2016 1:14 pm

would this canon lens with an ursa mini be a good option ?

http://cvp.com/index.php?t=product/canon_cn-e18-80
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Yoann Lebreton

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostWed Apr 20, 2016 2:07 pm

camera converter doesn't work with 4K and 12G SDI so your are only 1080 max.

We have to wait for fiber ursa mini :roll:
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostWed Apr 20, 2016 5:24 pm

This box

blackmagicdesign.com/uk/products/teranexmini/techspecs/W-TERAMIN-12

Will convert 12G 50/60P UHD to fibre
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Xtreemtec

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostWed Apr 20, 2016 6:07 pm

This is the 3G prototype model, not 4K yet.. But 4K is in development right now..

Image

Fiber is a Hybrid with 2 power connections and 2 strands of SM fiber. 100W of power can be drawn from the box at 14 volt.

With return video channel which on the Ursa mini good for CCU, Talkback and tally... ;)
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostWed Apr 20, 2016 7:20 pm

Jacquot wrote:would this canon lens with an ursa mini be a good option ?

http://cvp.com/index.php?t=product/canon_cn-e18-80


I was just doing some math, Raphaël, regarding this lens...savings from all the needed solutions (including the purchase premium of Ursa PL vs. EF mount) to run a B4-mount lens system may be close to purchasing this lens and avoid all the 'workarounds'. I'd be interested to know if that would be a realistic fit the same as you.

With that lens and the new Studio Viewfinder...hmmmm. Now just a 12G/fiber solution!
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Tarek Saneh

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostWed Apr 20, 2016 9:43 pm

Xtreemtec wrote:This is the 3G prototype model, not 4K yet.. But 4K is in development right now..

Image

Fiber is a Hybrid with 2 power connections and 2 strands of SM fiber. 100W of power can be drawn from the box at 14 volt.

With return video channel which on the Ursa mini good for CCU, Talkback and tally... ;)


This box is from fieldcast.eu?
I'm only interested in 3G, i didn't find this box on their website
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Xtreemtec

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostWed Apr 20, 2016 10:05 pm

The box isn't on their website yet because this is the prototype. They have to finnish the enclosure before it will appear on the website..

Release is planned for IBC this year.

They have shown this box and the "Control One" To the public on fairs now since Februari.. ISE Amsterdam, BVE London, Cabsat Dubai, Pro light and Sound Germany, NAB Las Vegas. Very positive reactions on both units..
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostWed Apr 20, 2016 10:58 pm

wow those guys have some nice toys. thanks for the link
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostThu Apr 21, 2016 1:48 am

The Canon CN-E 18-80mm T4.4 doesn't have a huge zoom range compared to a lot of B4 lenses, but one big advantage is that it covers a full Super 35 sensor. Which means that you could have full 4K/Ultra HD output from the Ursa Mini (B4 lenses are limited to a 1080p crop since they were designed for 2/3 inch sensors).

Of course that Canon lens isn't due to be released until later this year, and the servo motor is powered through the EF mount, so whether this will work with all cameras (including Blackmagic ones) or just Canon's own cameras remains to be seen.
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostThu Apr 21, 2016 9:22 am

Dave Del Vecchio wrote:The Canon CN-E 18-80mm T4.4 doesn't have a huge zoom range compared to a lot of B4 lenses...

What s35 lens does? That's the glaring problem with using Ursa as a broadcast camera... they've done great things with their ecosystem to put all of the infrastructure pieces together, but unless you're happy with static shots you have very little options.

Really the only choice is to get the PL version and pair it with a B4 lens, but then you have to use a center crop of the sensor and you've given up most of the picture quality advantages of using Ursa in the first place. You'll only keep the dynamic range improvements if you shoot RAW/log (which you likely wouldn't be for a live broadcast), and you'll suffer a massive resolution hit as well as introduce a lot more noise (and it's not exactly a low light champ to begin with). You'll also lose the s35 DoF aesthetic, although that's admittedly a subjective loss. Anyway, I played with the updated models on the show floor at NAB this week and in the windowed mode it lost all of its mojo.

Please understand that I am not here to trash this camera... I think it's a fantastic device for certain market segments and I'm here because I do live production with a huge investment in Blackmagic gear. I would love to replace my current cameras with Ursa Minis. You have to be realistic of its limitations, however, and considering those limitations, I'm still not sure what the draw really is over and above a quality 1080p (sorry, "i") camera that you probably already own.
Last edited by Haakon Sundry on Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostThu Apr 21, 2016 9:40 am

Yeah i agree with haakon.

We did last year a few festivals with FS7 and PL adapter.
Put Canon 17-120mm and fujinon cabrio lenses on them.
We had a 30-300 T2.9 PL on front of house. But in 35mm that is only like 12x zoom.....
Which is nearly not enough for front of house to stage.
If i have this gig with HD camera's i put a 40x zoom canon eng zoom in front of it.
Or even wack Out and rent a 100x box lens if budget is there..

Then you have the Canon 50-1000 PL But that one i cant Find for rent here within 4 hours drive. :cry:

Have you seen the New Sony release. 4K sensor on a B4 2/3 image plane. UHD on a standard HD lens.
http://www.sony.nl/pro/product/broadcas ... /overview/
I like what they have done. But iTS way Out of my pricerange.. I hope one day BMD Will present a camera that is capable of doing this without Loosing too much light sensitivity or Dynamic range.

But hey. It is all New technology. In 5 years we laugh About these Posts... Give it time and UHD Will settle iTS place...
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostThu Apr 21, 2016 9:53 am

Yes, precisely! The crazy thing is even the seemingly huge range of the 50-1000 Canon is still only 20x and you have to suffer T8.9 to get it. :? Ouch. And all for the low low price of US$70,000. :)

Aye, that Sony camera is exactly what we need - but now we've gone back to the days before BMD and RED when the only options were Sony and Panasonic and they all cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. That won't change until one of the new guys starts putting pressure on the broadcast/live production market, and I think most of the rebel startups find the cine camera world much sexier. In fact, I think the only reason we are getting something like an "Ursa Studio Viewfinder" is because BMD made switchers before they made cameras and this is just a way to bring everything together.

I think 5 years is being optimistic, but I would love to be proved wrong. Wanna meet up at NAB 2021 and see what we get? If BMD has our magic unicorn camera, I'll buy you a drink! :lol:
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Tom_Bassford

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostThu Apr 21, 2016 10:04 am

The question isn't "does the ursa mini stand up against 2/3rd inch broadcast cameras?"

The question should be "can the URSA Mini system allow you to use similar production techniques to broadcast TV?"

It's not about the future of 4k, or where TV will be in 15 years time. It's about now and 1080i / p productions in webcast and IMAG environments.

As far as I'm concerned the URSA Mini fills a gap in the market. It provides TV style workflow in a camera system which costs less than 10% of the industry standard Sony cameras.

This is big big news. I don't care if the camera doesn't look as wow in 1080 as 4k. I care that you have remote iris and paint along with the ability to use any B4 lens on a camera which is as affordable as an EX3 or PMW200.

It doesn't need to look better than these cameras, it needs to provide a more professional workflow at a similar price point without a significant loss of image quality.






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Re: ursa mini - live

PostThu Apr 21, 2016 10:22 am

Tom_Bassford wrote:The question isn't "does the ursa mini stand up against 2/3rd inch broadcast cameras?"

Uh, I thought your entire point of reference was the "current network broadcast standard?" Now we're talking about compressed webcasts? :?

Tom_Bassford wrote:As far as I'm concerned the URSA Mini fills a gap in the market. It provides TV style workflow in a camera system which costs less than 10% of the industry standard Sony cameras.

Can't you already do that with something like

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=684198&gclid=CLTAnuO-n8wCFcRgfgod7osIJA&is=REG&ap=y&m=Y&c3api=1876%2C92051678642%2C&Q=&A=details

and

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=1036996&gclid=COeC-MW_n8wCFU1gfgodKCQL4w&is=REG&ap=y&c3api=1876%2C52934715962%2C&A=details&Q=

which have been out for like 6 years? What is an Ursa getting me over that, after you've cropped the sensor to bits and found a suitable lens to match with it (that incidentally brings the price way back up)? I thought the whole point was that finally we could harness s35 image quality for live production in a camera that didn't cost $40K. If you just want a 1080i camera that you can remotely doodle, just go on eBay.
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostThu Apr 21, 2016 10:35 am

No the canon / Panasonic / Sony options don't provide anything like a broadcast workflow.
They have no Tally, no comms, no return video. The 3rd party bolt ons which add these things are cumbersome expensive and little more than a bodge job.

The point of the URSA is that you can get a workflow that's unobtainable outside of camera chains which are around £100,000.

Show me a $40,000 S35 live production camera? There aren't any that I know of. Maybe Arri Amira is close to this, but again it's not a proper camera chain.

Your in cuckoo land if you think that any Blackmagic camera is ever going to deliver what top line Arri cameras do, it's not the same market and never will be. The URSA Miniis a great low cost camera that has made a professional live production workflow possible on a budget. Why be annoyed that it's not gonna compete with a system which is orders of magnitude more expensive??


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Re: ursa mini - live

PostThu Apr 21, 2016 11:17 am

Yoann Lebreton wrote:what is the trick to use ursa mini 12G SDI with a 12G Atem for long distance. Because there is no 12G sdi to fiber. The only option today is to use a common sdi but with poor distances?


and

Tarek Saneh wrote:We need fibre optic cable solution with power, a box with fiber converter and power, the cable will have 2 strand optic and power for the camera and converter


I'm guessing a bit, but I think the BMD solution to this will eventually be the Teranex Mini Optical range, marked on the website as "Shipping Soon" :D

I would expect in a "Studio Setup", you could get decent quality SDI to run in a cable snake from camera / pedestal to a wall box and carry the 12G over the 10-15m that would normally be. Then you'd go fiber to your Core Rack(s), and break it back out to SDI into the ATEM 12G. You could do something similar at a venue, although you'd probably end up with the Teranex minis converting to fiber at each camera position, rather than in a shared wall box, but you'd also want to use rugged fiber termination along with the other considerations needed for mobile setups, so it's probably not that bigger deal to use a teranex mini at each camera position.

I've got my fingers crossed we'll see both 12G single and quad link SDI on those Teranex 12G Mini optical converters, until then if working with 12G, you'll need to be bit creative with your solution. i.e. Go 12G single to quad link, deal with it as four 3G links and go back to single link at the switcher
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostThu Apr 21, 2016 11:22 am

Tom_Bassford wrote:No the canon / Panasonic / Sony options don't provide anything like a broadcast workflow.
They have no Tally, no comms, no return video. The 3rd party bolt ons which add these things are cumbersome expensive and little more than a bodge job.

I really, truly don't want to cause any friction, but please understand that you keep changing your area of criticism. In your last post you said, "I don't care if the camera doesn't look as wow in 1080 as 4k. I care that you have remote iris and paint..." and I just showed you how to get remote iris and paint on a six-year-old $4K 1080 camera (with a built-in 18x lens!). Now it's tally, comms, and return video.

Well, guess what... we are already using the Blackmagic tally, comms, and return video with those exact types of cameras (the beauty is that the system works with ANY camera) - and it is the identical solution that Ursa provides. Ursa would gain us nothing in any of those areas beyond what already exists.

Tom_Bassford wrote:Show me a $40,000 S35 live production camera? There aren't any that I know of.

Well that's the whole point. :) But the reason you would want a S35 production camera is for the image quality. Otherwise, why not just keep what you already have? The reason that cameras like RED (and now the Ursa) are so popular is they are bringing the price point way down to get the image characteristics that are generally agreed to be desirable. If I can bring that quality to my live productions, certainly I want to. If I could be shooting with 8 Alexas or even 8 REDs, I would be! But other than the fact that I can't afford 8 REDs, there still exists the glaring problem with using s35 cameras in live production: optics, optics, optics.

I already have basic 1080 performance with tally and talkback and all of those other things you mentioned. What I want is the picture to not be mediocre 2010 image quality. Give me increased dynamic range. Increased resolution. Better low light performance. Shallower depth of field. All things which translate into higher production value (again, otherwise we could just all be using consumer handycams and be done with it). Everyone wants the best image they can get. And as the Ursa is now being touted as a "live production camera," I think many people are under the illusion that they can get all of those things. If we had reasonably priced optics that would mate properly with the sensor, we actually could. But if we're just going to live in B4 land, then you lose most of what makes Ursa's image so nice and there's really no point in switching over. At least for me, there isn't.

Tom_Bassford wrote:Your in cuckoo land if you think that any Blackmagic camera is ever going to deliver what top line Arri cameras do.

I don't think any camera (even RED) delivers an image as pleasing as the Alexa, but certainly the Ursa produces a picture that's better than any current broadcast camera, right?. To me, that's the entire point. If that's not what matters to you, then we have identified where we are seeing things differently. :) I don't think I am the only person who is interested in Ursa for its image characteristics, however. If you just want tally, talkback, and return video with whatever you're already using, I would be more than happy to help walk you through it. You certainly don't need an Ursa for that.

JohnBengston wrote:I've got my fingers crossed we'll see both 12G single and quad link SDI on those Teranex 12G Mini optical converters.

Here here! I agree with John! :D Of course this assumes you want to work in 4K, which we understand not everyone does. :)
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostThu Apr 21, 2016 11:46 am

Out of interest which cameras do you currently use?

I think this is the crux of the matter.. Currently I use a mixture of cameras, from low cost non studio cameras such as the EX1 / EX3 etc to proper studio chains like the HDC1500. The production aesthetic that is possible with the HDC1500 type cameras is better not because of a pixel peeping image quality improvement, it is better because the workflow is actually designed for live production, and the shots work.

Unlike people who come from a DSLR / Film / S35 background i don't think that short DOF and big Dynamic Range are the key ingredients to a quality live production. I'm proved right by the fact that people working with effectively unlimited budgets choose 2/3rd inch studio cameras with a well designed workflow over s35 cameras which are not designed for live production and so are not only harder to use in a live multicam shoot but ultimately result in a worse overall production outcome than cameras which provide "worse" image quality. (ie studio 2/3rd inch cameras)

The workflow is key, and URSA is breaking new ground here by providing a truly professional workflow at a price point which is previously unheard of. I disagree that blackmagic already provide the workflow of tally / returns and comms to any camera, It simply isn't the case, the camera converter doesn't provide returns to the viewfinder, nor is it integrated into the camera, and there isn't a low cost solution for putting a hired in digisuper 100 on any of these existing low cost cameras.
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostThu Apr 21, 2016 12:21 pm

Tom_Bassford wrote:Out of interest which cameras do you currently use?

Sorry if I wasn't clear, in house we're mostly using the Canons which I previously linked.

The main reason for this is simply the lens reach. I believe the FF equivalent of that glass is something like 29mm-530mm at a constant 2.8. Nice for wide venue shots up to acceptable closeups, and if we need really tight shots we just position cameras where we need them. I like the noise performance, color science, and image quality of the Canons compared to similar offerings by Sony and Panasonic, but that is admittedly a subjective choice.

We rent 2/3" chip cameras for higher end productions, but the theory is still the same - I have to have the reach. That gets pricier the larger the chip gets. The nice thing is that our tally/comm/return system works identically between all cameras, which is precisely why we use it.

I would love to actually own something even better, but again, what exists? I can't afford that new 4K Sony, but I can afford an Ursa. Why do you think I am here? :P Coincidentally, my workflow would be identical with the Ursa as it is with my Canons. Literally nothing would change except perhaps where a couple of the plugs go.

Tom_Bassford wrote:The production aesthetic that is possible with the HDC1500 type cameras is better not because of a pixel peeping image quality improvement, it is better because the workflow is actually designed for live production, and the shots work.

Absolutely smaller chip cameras are easier to work with - and if that makes the difference between getting a shot vs. not getting a shot, then there is no question: workflow is king. But I was strictly talking image quality from the s35 perspective. Higher resolution is objectively better than lower resolution (if all other things are equal). The whole idea is to maximize your image quality without compromising your workflow. I know you feel the same way or you would still be shooting in standard definition. No, we all want the best image quality possible - we are image makers. It is simply finding the point at which we start to make other compromises based on the image quality that we have to stop and reassess. Those compromises may be workflow related or they may be other things too like financially related.

This is precisely why people - even with unlimited budgets - choose 2/3 over 35mm. But if the workflow was identical, then I think you would see way more people shooting s35. I have shot live concerts before with a bevy of Epic cameras, and the footage looks stunning; way better than the output from a 2/3" chip camera. Even over the internet on a live stream, you can just feel it. But it was definitely a pain in the ass, and most of the time you just need things to work. We agree completely. However, I still believe more people are interested in Ursa as a means to increase the quality of their productions than they are that Ursa will make their workflow easier. You may disagree and of course we will never know, but the majority of people aren't on these forums either. They see a sexy new "4.6K" camera and now they want to know how to get 12G fiber to it. Just scroll up. If everyone was content with 1080 and didn't care about picture quality, they wouldn't be trying to figure out how to squeeze "4.6K" into their workflow. BMD wouldn't be messing with 12G anything. They could just make a nice 2/3" chip with bigger photosites for better sensitivity and a B4 mount standard - with all of the workflow things you're talking about - and be done with it. But no, people don't want a 1080 camera. EVEN if they end up using Ursa in 1080 mode, they STILL want the 4.6K camera! :lol:

Tom_Bassford wrote:The workflow is key, and URSA is breaking new ground here by providing a truly professional workflow at a price point which is previously unheard of. I disagree that blackmagic already provide the workflow of tally / returns and comms to any camera, It simply isn't the case, the camera converter doesn't provide returns to the viewfinder, nor is it integrated into the camera, and there isn't a low cost solution for putting a hired in digisuper 100 on any of these existing low cost cameras.

Well, stop by our studio and I can show you working comms, tally and return video working with any camera you like, even a GoPro. :D No, you don't put return video in the viewfinder, but the talkback doesn't go through the camera anyway and the tally gets passed to whatever monitor you want it to. You've got me on the digisuper, but then again if your budget affords you a digisuper then your budget affords you better than a poor performance windowed crop of a sensor. You will get a better picture from a 2/3" broadcast camera with that kind of lens than you will putting it on the Ursa no doubt. Then again, if the image doesn't matter to you then I guess we are just going round in circles. :P
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostThu Apr 21, 2016 1:54 pm

An HDC1500 is what about £500/day to rent. URSA Mini will be closer to £100/day. The ability to put it on 100x zoom becomes very relevant at that point and makes a good FOH shot possible on crappy festival budgets.

The appeal of URSA is getting comms/returns/tally integrated with a sensible cable (single jacket not a huge loom) not depending on external monitors, additional batteries, comms packs and all the rest of the crap. It's offering a level of integration which isn't possible currently without having budget for triax / smpte fibre cameras.

People will buy it for the numbers and the supposed image quality. People will enjoy it (and keep using it) because of the integrated features which ape a triax system.




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Re: ursa mini - live

PostThu Apr 21, 2016 2:11 pm

I just finished a concert tour using the Ursa Mini's Id gladly swap out my 300' loom of edison, XLR and 2 RG6 cables in favor of a single fiber :)
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostThu Apr 21, 2016 4:01 pm

Belden just released the 4794R that will do 12G up to 100M. I did the product demonstration at NAB. This is what we will be using for our URSA Minis.
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostThu Apr 21, 2016 4:16 pm

Tom_Bassford wrote:An HDC1500 is what about £500/day to rent. URSA Mini will be closer to £100/day. The ability to put it on 100x zoom becomes very relevant at that point and makes a good FOH shot possible on crappy festival budgets.

The appeal of URSA is getting comms/returns/tally integrated with a sensible cable (single jacket not a huge loom) not depending on external monitors, additional batteries, comms packs and all the rest of the crap. It's offering a level of integration which isn't possible currently without having budget for triax / smpte fibre cameras.

People will buy it for the numbers and the supposed image quality. People will enjoy it (and keep using it) because of the integrated features which ape a triax system.




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I'm totally with you on this Tom, i do at least 20 events per year the only thing that get me excited about this camera for live event filming is the tally CCU and comms integration, so i don't have to run extra cables and deal the batteries for each component. Last month i did a sport event for 6 days, 9 hours of livestream per day.

Last week i was at Sony distributor, the cheapest camera channel is for 34000$ which is not even rated for broadcast loool
At the End if the Ursa 4.6k channel will cost me around 12000$ with basic b4 20x fujinon HD lens (which cost 2500$ where i live), if the image quality (in windowed mode) is 30% less than the Sony i don't care. In live production the workflow and time to setup is always a king, i want to plug the cable in the camera and have return comms tally CCU and power, its priceless ;) :)

When people talk about large sensor in live production (live on TV or Internet) it make me laugh, give me a 20x parfocal lens for S35 under 10000$ i will buy 10 pieces tomorrow, simple it doesn't exist.
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostThu Apr 21, 2016 7:51 pm

At the End if the Ursa 4.6k channel will cost me around 12000$ with basic b4 20x fujinon HD lens

But there's no URSA channel right now. You still need three cables to each camera (2x SDI and power) or hybrid fibre and converters at both ends. We are still far away from a simple solution like Triax cabling, CCU and RCP, all from the same manufacturer. We are addicted to guys like Skaarhoj for the missing link. And they are addicted to Blackmagic and their "you never know when you get what we announced last IBC/NAB" policy.
When you buy at Sony/GVG/Panasonic you get a complete camera channel that works from the beginning.
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostThu Apr 21, 2016 8:22 pm

Tom_Bassford wrote:The appeal of URSA is getting comms/returns/tally integrated with a sensible cable (single jacket not a huge loom) not depending on external monitors, additional batteries, comms packs and all the rest of the crap.

You should really become acquainted with Blackmagic's camera converter. You don't need comm packs or batteries or thick cables or any of those things to get your comm/tally/return - it already exists and it works with any camera. Super easy, cheap, and one cable does it all. Heck, it's even self powered if you need it to be.

Tarek Saneh wrote:When people talk about large sensor in live production (live on TV or Internet) it make me laugh, give me a 20x parfocal lens for S35 under 10000$ i will buy 10 pieces tomorrow, simple it doesn't exist.

No it does not, hence my confusion with using this product in a broadast setting.
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostThu Apr 21, 2016 9:07 pm

You don't get camera control down the fibre with the camera converter though so you still end up with a loom.

price wise the XF305 + Remote + camera converter is almost the same price as URSA Mini PL + B4 adapter + OLED Viewfinder + Shoulder mount + 20x b4 lens.

If you can get the same or better image quality live from the URSA Mini with the added bonus of the ability to shoot 4k S35 cinema style then it's a no brainer isn't it? Thats why i'm excited by this camera. It offers great options for a really affordable price, with the possibility to use it at 4k with some hired in lenses if you have a production which needs that level of quality. It's the first camera to come out of the DSLR legacy which has properly addressed live production needs, it offers a great option to people working with small budgets and it's flexible enough to be put to use on a whole load of differing styles of shoot.
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