ursa mini - live

Questions about ATEM Switchers, Camera Converter and everything live!
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Haakon Sundry

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSat Apr 02, 2016 1:03 pm

The other (some would say more logical) option is to start making switchers that actually have independent scalers on each input, which makes the subject of interlaced and progressive moot.

It's 2016; nobody should be shooting in interlaced anything anymore (I'm not saying none of us do, I'm saying we shouldn't be). The real problem is that if you do have any legacy camera hardware, you can't mix it with any of Blackmagic's new camera offerings thanks to this severe limitation in their switchers (not even their most expensive models can accept mixed signals!), so they are preventing a lot of people from being able to find an upgrade path through BMD that works for them. Instead of demanding interlaced output from our modern cameras, we should be demanding switchers that can handle both modern as well as legacy formats.
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gerson becker

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSat Apr 02, 2016 1:20 pm

Hey Black Magic,
We need interlaced output in Ursa Mini.
There is a huge market for this camera if you can use it in interlaced format.
The discussion of "we must use P" is beyond the point.
At this moment we need interlaced. For my studio, for my transmition. And B4 support.
No interlaced, no Black Magic cameras in my set up.
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Xtreemtec

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSat Apr 02, 2016 3:06 pm

Well the whole problem lays in processing.. They do progressive scan on the sensor.. But for some reason it costs a lot of processor resources to let that same processor do Progresive to interlaced..

What in terms leads to cameras that are P out only. Or as with the 2,5K cameras you had to disable onscreen features to free up processor resources to do the Interlaced output.
That feature came months after release when the whole market demanded interlaced output as they had no Progressive video mixers at that time yet.. And the only device that could do propper conversion was the Teranex 2 converter...

I guess they will in time make it compatible with interlaced output.. But (*me as software developer) knows software takes always a lot of time.. And sometimes in test setups everything looks like it works and hold up nicely.. And with the first fieldtest you discover a mayor problem which can't be fixed easily..

Would you rather wait 1 year more for the camera's to release or would you pay twice that much because they put twice as much programmers on the camera...

Have patience.. Or buy and PAY for a Sony or so... (they even don't release the camera's full featured anymore.. More and more Broadcast brands release a product with unfinnised software so they can start selling the product and claim some research and designing money back to invest in more development...


Don't forget that the development of a camera such as the Ursa will cost a quick 1 to 5 million...
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Tom_Bassford

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSat Apr 02, 2016 3:31 pm

Haakon Sundry wrote:It's 2016; nobody should be shooting in interlaced anything anymore
Sorry you are just plain wrong about that. Show me a single broadcaster that wants live production done as 1080p?

Xtreemtec wrote:Well the whole problem lays in processing.. They do progressive scan on the sensor.. But for some reason it costs a lot of processor resources to let that same processor do Progresive to interlaced..

No it doesn't.
50p to 50i is a really simple line skipping process - it's very easy processing to produce 50 fields from 50 frames.

The real issue is that Blackmagic have no interest in professional broadcast production. They can sell enough switchers and cameras to schools and churches, live events and web streaming markets. These prosumer markets are happy with the quality of Blackmagic kit, they don't need the products to actually get finished and work 100% reliably, they just want things which are low cost.

If you are designing a studio for actual live TV production then it's pretty much a done deal that Blackmagic gear won't be the core infrastructure. However much BMD are a "disruptive" company you don't really see the likes of Sony and Ross quaking in their boots. It's different gear for different markets.

Blackmagic have a perfectly acceptable solution - you run their cameras in progressive HD, mix with an ATEM in progressive and then convert to 1080i with a Texanex downstream of the ATEM. Few people really do this, but then few people really use BMD gear in live broadcast environments where you need 1080i output.

There isn't much point bashing them about it. They have their market and it isn't really broadcast. Once you accept that they overhype the capabilities of their kit and market things as though they were an option for globally renowned broadcasters when in reality their core market is prosumers then it all makes a lot more sense. The marketing is BS but the products are really great for the budget level the represent, as they allow broadcast style production to be carried out by people working on a fraction of the budgets of broadcast.
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JohnBengston

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSat Apr 02, 2016 4:25 pm

The ATEMs are in use at major broadcasters, at least in the UK. Albeit mainly as auxiliary / backup mixers rather than primary programme mixers. I personally believe adding Standards conversion to all inputs would introduce a latency that would make further adoption less, not more, likely - at least at the broadcast end of the market - but who knows?? maybe it would be better for the Pro-sumers. It would cease to be a line-by-line mixer in a referenced world, but maybe BMD can come up with a clever solution where it can be both.

However this topic is about the URSA Mini, and towards the bottom of the topic the news from Dec last year that this camera will be progressive only.

That's still one of the most humorous posts on this entire forum, and BMD managers should be given the credit they are due for their comedy! :lol:

The problem with saying "Change your entire environment and down-convert", is "In order to use this camera - You need to change your entire environment".
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JohnBengston

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSat Apr 02, 2016 4:57 pm

Xtreemtec wrote:What in terms leads to cameras that are P out only. Or as with the 2,5K cameras you had to disable onscreen features to free up processor resources to do the Interlaced output.
That feature came months after release when the whole market demanded interlaced output as they had no Progressive video mixers at that time yet.. And the only device that could do propper conversion was the Teranex 2 converter...

I guess they will in time make it compatible with interlaced output.. But (*me as software developer) knows software takes always a lot of time.. And sometimes in test setups everything looks like it works and hold up nicely.. And with the first fieldtest you discover a mayor problem which can't be fixed easily..


and...

Tom_Bassford wrote:50p to 50i is a really simple line skipping process - it's very easy processing to produce 50 fields from 50 frames.


Although we will never know, but my bet is this is about compression and on-device storage rather than processing. Did the cinema cameras ever record interlaced? or just output it Live for monitoring / mixing??

And when BMD did add interlaced compatible output to the cinema camera, wasn't it PsF rather than interlaced fields??

Interesting camera, interesting topic, weird design decisions.
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gerson becker

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSat Apr 02, 2016 5:26 pm

Xtreemtec,
smaller, inexpensive cameras have interlaced outputs. And I can hook up in any switcher.
I have Sony cameras, small and big. And some Panasonic. This is not the point.
As a customer I can ask and wait for a product like Mini Ursa with interlaced output.
If I have this I can up grade some equipment in a less expensive way.
For me, expend 1 to 5 mil in developing a camera that has not the standard output is an error.
Mini Studio has interlaced output, and is less expensive. Already bought one.
This is my way to see: as a customer.

JohnBengston
"from Dec last year that this camera will be progressive only." Well well well, if you use Black Magic products as long as I, you know that you can't believe in everything that they write in brochures, PDFs, sites and show at NAB.
I use ATEM as primary and back up switchers, in live and recorded programs. Along with Ross, Ross and Panasonic switchers. I agree that this are not the most "professional" products in the market, but as we saw in ATEM line, Black Magic is trying to be in the same league as other "professional" broadcast products. No macros in the launch, now you have it, and other features.
In this ligth you find some features in switcher and other products that are beyond other brands, more expensive products.

Tom_Bassford
Tom, not in the same league, but you can buy two matrix or switcher and not for the price of one. So there is a huge market for this products. Broadcast or not market.
And they deliver, some times with problems, what they promisse.

Again, as a consumer I will buy Ursa Mini for a four cameras studio or horse race live production if I can use in my interlaced switcher (ATEM 1 and 2).
Any one that sugests change to P and downconvert in the output doesnot know what is talking about.
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Tom_Bassford

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSat Apr 02, 2016 5:52 pm

JohnBengston wrote:The problem with saying "Change your entire environment and down-convert", is "In order to use this camera - You need to change your entire environment".

Is that a problem though?

Any serious multicam production will use identical cameras anyway so really there isn't that much of a barrier here. If you are buying into the BMD way then you get all the kit from them and get on with it. If you are not then there are plenty of better solutions on the market.
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JohnBengston

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSat Apr 02, 2016 6:16 pm

It can be..... as ever... depending on the situation.

If all your media players and Graphic Renderers are geared for 1.5G, and specifically all the Graphics work has been done targeting 1080i, re-building it all can be a serious undertaking, far more so than switching out 3 or 4 cameras.

Recording devices and disk speeds, may require upgrades.

Infrastructure can be an issue too, what if your cabling supports 1.5G over the distances involved in your setup, but when you try to put 3G down it, it struggles.

Video Hubs or matricies from other providers may sit in front of your mixer as an input matrix, and this may or may not support 3G. Sure the latest set of BMD videohubs do, but only very slightly old ones don't.

In a greenfield site, going 3G or 4K and down-converting your output is a good recommendation, and I would echo it.

But upgrading an existing setup with this camera option could end up costing users a lot more than the cost of the cameras and accessories.

And let me be doubly clear, I'm not calling for BMD to add interlaced video formats to this product. I'm just saying it's a hilarious decision to make a camera you are promoting as being more suitable for Live, in that they are adding the CCU control and B4 lens option, and then not including interlaced output modes.

Do I think it's useless in all situations? no of course not, I'm just saying it's way less useful than it could have been. I'm all about getting the most of out your purchases, and I wish anyone buying this product the best of success with their purchase. I just won't be one of them, as it's not a Live Production camera suitable for me if I can't mix it with other Live Production kit within my setup. The ATEMs are hardly the only vision mixer that don't do Standard Conversion on all-inputs.
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gerson becker

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSat Apr 02, 2016 6:20 pm

Tom,
You dont need To have The same cameras in a setup. Profissional or not.
You use small cameras, boxed in some places,
Wireless cameras that use bateries, so not
The same model as studio cameras, plus Vtrs, player,
Character generator and other stuff.
It's not only the cameras that you need To
Think about. And if its an upgrade, you dont
Want To change everything.
Thats why I need interlaced
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gerson becker

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSat Apr 02, 2016 6:22 pm

Well said John
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Xtreemtec

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSat Apr 02, 2016 7:29 pm

I believe it was still recording progressive.

So for interlaced output they needed to calculate and send the data in another format to the Parallel to Serial driver chip. (it is physical another way of formatting the data.. )
* Yes i know that.. i'm working with some of those chips in our new development unit..


So there you need power to calculate your output signal besides your progressive image for recording..
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Denny Smith

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSat Apr 02, 2016 10:55 pm

As far as the future of broadcasting is concerned in North America, ATSC 3.0 will only support interlaced broadcasting 1080i as a legacy format, being replaced by a higher progressive only standard:
The ATSC 3.0 standard will include UltraHD progressive video up to 3840×2160 at 60 fps. Other elements of the UltraHD standard such as high dynamic range (HDR), wider color gamut, and high frame rate (HFR) will be included in the standard, and only legacy support will be provided for 1080i signals.

While 1080i is the current broadcast HD standard along with 720p, many broadcasters use 1080i.
But 1080p is the standard used on the Internet and progressive is,used for disc based viewing. All non-CRT (LCD, Plasma p, etc) are also progressive signal viewing systems, that must,take,the interlaced signal and put it back to progressive to view int,program.

Now we find ourselves having adopted 1080i for broadcast and 1080p for internet and disc-based distribution it's time to move on again. The next step is 4K Ultra-High Definition TV, and standards like the ATSC 3.0. In TV terms, 4K refers to an image that has four times more information than 1080p. The image resolution is 3,840x2,160 (8.3-megapixels). That's up from 2.1-megapixels in 1,920 x 1,080.

Of the major four US TV networks, ABC and Fox are progressive (720p) and CBS and NBC are interlaced (1080i) with the rest of the content providers using progressive and/or interlaced for broadcast and progressive for internet based content. So while interlaced is a broadcast standard, it is not the only broadcast standard, hot is it universal as it was in the analog, standard def. TV days. The first HD standard was 720p, with 1080p/i added later.

Equipment manufacturers are also looking at the upcoming proposed broadcast and cable-based TV standards. In the US, traditional cable TV is going away, and in many areas broadcast TV is also in decline, being replaced do by digital video over Internet distribution, like Netflix. Comcast, the major cable provider is replacing regulated traditional cable broadcasting with their internet provided TV content, XFINITY, which is progressive based video content only.

So with interlaced broadcasting going run way of standard def. TV, should video equipment manufacturers be building making cameras and TVs for interlaced broadcasting, start shifting their equipment to support progressive only. It's 2016, by the end of 2017, we will see the 1080i standard in broadcasting going away, being replaced by FullHD/UHD progressive broadcasting. So, I can see why BM is taking this next step with the Ursa Mini, and only supporting progressive, as making dual standard equipment does drive the cost up. Now we find ourselves having adopted 1080i for broadcast and 1080p for internet and disc-based distribution it's time to move on again. The next step is 4K Ultra-High Definition TV. In TV terms, 4K refers to an image that has four times more information than 1080p. The image resolution is 3,840x2,160 (8.3-megapixels). That's up from 2.1-megapixels in 1,920 x 1,080. Even the Pocket camera, and the New Micro Cinema camera also do not support 1080i. The next generation of BM's Studio TV cameras will also probably not support 1080i. The new ATEMs and firmware updates for the newer 4K units, will support the Ursa Min as a progressive only camera. After all, Interlaced broadcasting is dying... Or is it? :roll:

In a few weeks, we will find out, and get a glimpse at this new future with NAB 2106! :idea:

Cheers
Last edited by Denny Smith on Sun Apr 03, 2016 12:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tom_Bassford

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSun Apr 03, 2016 12:01 am

No interlace isn't dying, certainly not quickly. It's going to take another decade for 4k to be a common broadcast standard in the U.S. and Western Europe. Globally it will possibly never happen. The vast majority of broadcast TV is still SD coming off legacy satellite transmitters.

Blackmagic's equipment is simply irrelevant in this discussion, it's not used by major broadcasters and it matters not one iota in the bigger picture.

That said I've no problem with Blackmagic moving to progressive as they already have. For their market its the correct format, but don't get confused into thinking their market is major broadcasters when it simply isn't.


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JohnBengston

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSun Apr 03, 2016 12:16 am

Denny Smith wrote:Of,the major four US TV networks, ABC and Fox are progressive (720p) and CBS and NBC are interlaced (1080i) with the rest of the content providers using progressive and/or interlaced for broadcast and progressive for internet based content.


Kinda - my point exactly: 720p and 1080i are both 1.5G HD formats. and hence they've created a camera that doesn't support HD, at a time when HD is effectively STILL the standard for Live broadcast. Note the camera doesn't support 720p either.

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicursamini/techspecs

And as such it's a field camera who's content is intended / expected to to go through post, not really a Live Production camera, despite the CCU features and B4 lens mount.

To be fair to BMD, they don't even really imply it is either in their marketing, mostly it's us seeing it supports ATEM CCU and B4 lens mount, and doing a bit of wishful thinking.

I totally get your points on the future predictions, although I think it's somewhat optimistic to expect to see the end of interlaced video or ATSC 3.0 roll-out at scale in 2017. I hope you are right, while remember being told at trade shows that 3D is going to be huge this time around. It wasn't..... my advice is to take what you hear at a trade show, where industries talk to themselves, with a pinch of salt, especially when they are predicting the future.

On the plus side, when the 4.6 is finally widely available and the CCU functionality has been implemented, it'll probably be the end of 2017 anyway and the camera will make more sense. Although I'd worry how many more cameras will have been released by then, 4 major trade shows between now and end of 2017. That should be at least 8, hopefully 16 new cameras.
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JohnBengston

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSun Apr 03, 2016 12:28 am

Tom_Bassford wrote:Blackmagic's equipment is simply irrelevant in this discussion, it's not used by major broadcasters and it matters not one iota in the bigger picture.


Stop saying this Tom.

Channel 4 News Backup mixer is an ATEM 2ME 4K
ITV Election in 2015 opinion room / discussion room, was mixed separately on an ATEM 2ME 4K with it's output being fed into the GV Kayenne. Hyperdecks, videohubs, multiviewers in use.
Sky News have/had (they change a lot) a 2ME based studio/gallery with TVSs acting as upstream chroma-keyers, BMD Studio cameras.
Decklink cards are everywhere.
(seen, visited, touched, and in some cases supported, got videos although not edited or yet authorized for public release)

These are terrestrial and satellite broadcasters in the UK of the large variety, all of it 1080i.
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Denny Smith

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSun Apr 03, 2016 1:03 am

Yes,Tom, you are probably correct about interlaced broadcasting. I agree completely on BM equipment, not being in major broadcasting market, but rather educational, industrial broadcasting applications, independent producers, and cable system operators.
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Haakon Sundry

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSun Apr 03, 2016 1:14 am

Tom_Bassford wrote:
Haakon Sundry wrote:It's 2016; nobody should be shooting in interlaced anything anymore

Sorry you are just plain wrong about that. Show me a single broadcaster that wants live production done as 1080p?
Really? I'd like you to show me a single broadcaster that wants live production done as 1080i.

I understand why people need to shoot interlaced material, but I don't know of a single person who would voluntarily pick it over progressive if given a choice. Why on earth would they?

Also, you cut off the second half of my quote that already addressed this.

I realize that many people still have interlaced gear. I also understand that there is a lot of existing infrastructure in traditional broadcast that runs on interlaced signals as well. But Denny is completely right. As we move away from traditional broadcast - and especially as CRT monitors are now all but extinct in the home - it is inevitable that progressive will eventually take over. There is zero benefit to interlaced video besides bandwidth savings, and in a world of 4K cameras, bandwidth for a 1080 line stream isn't much of a concern. It's a holdover from the very beginnings of analog television that is now completely obsolete. For that matter, non-integer framerates are utter nonsense in today's world as well.

As Denny pointed out, there is zero interlaced format in the UHD spec. They should have removed it when HD was established, but they didn't - so it's dying a terribly slow death. The sooner the better.

What I find most humorous is that anyone is arguing in favor of interlacing on a camera forum where endless pixel peeping takes place... if image quality is the ultimate concern, what justification is there for frames that are shredded in two by interlacing artifacts? This isn't an aesthetic thing like the difference between films shot at 24p or those shot natively at 48p. That's subjective, and I can understand the argument on both sides. But a progressive frame is objectively better than an interlaced one... why are we even discussing this?

CBS and NBC are not buying BMD cameras for their evening news. I think the "broadcast" world Blackmagic is targeting with their $1K ATEM switchers is independent live production; exactly the things you mentioned: schools, churches, concerts, live events, and streaming markets. In fact, IP streaming IS the direction modern broadcast is headed and that certainly isn't interlaced. There are a lot of issues I have with Blackmagic products, but I wholeheartedly support them on this one. You'll notice that RED doesn't offer interlaced anything, either, and they tout a "live broadcast" module as well: http://www.red.com/products/4k-broadcast. One of their main bullet points even states "Have it all—archive 6K masters and handle the current 1080p live broadcast landscape." 1080p, not 1080i.

I have long been a fan of yours Tom (and continue to be); I think you are one of the few well-spoken voices of reason on this forum. I must thoroughly disagree with you on this one, however. It is reasonable to want your existing gear to be able to interface with new products that are released (which is why BMD's switchers should be able to accept whatever format you give them: what my original post stated), but arguing this is like arguing that new computers should still ship with floppy drives just because you have a bunch of old disks lying around.
Last edited by Haakon Sundry on Sun Apr 03, 2016 12:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSun Apr 03, 2016 1:45 am

Denny Smith wrote:I agree completely on BM equipment, not being in major broadcasting market, but rather educational, industrial broadcasting applications, independent producers, and cable system operators.
Cheers


A company's market is defined by who buys their kit, not who buys the majority of their kit. BMD gear is used by producers of content large and small, live and post-produced, from the largest broadcasters with market values in the billions, to bedroom indies publishing only to Youtube. It's fairly obvious that that there will always be a greater number sales to the later group than the first, but both groups make up BMDs market.




Not my video but sections from the ITV election coverage I mentioned above. ITV have a annual revenues around £3bn, not big enough for you to class as professional?????

http://www.londonstockexchange.com/exchange/prices-and-markets/stocks/summary/company-summary/GB0033986497GBGBXSET1.html

Mixed on a ATEM 2ME. JustMacros and XKeys, Hyperdecks and other BMD gear was involved. Fed to quarter of mills worth of primary program GV Kayenne, and looked fine (hard to tell from this youtube video, but if you find HD coverage of this show, you can see the quality matches the main studio).

Simply stating over and over again that large broadcasters don't use BMD gear, doesn't make it so.

And for you US guys NBCs London bureau runs out of this same building, and although I'm not 100% sure as it's a long time since I did any work on any of their projects, I'm fairly certain, you'll find some BMD gear in their racks too.

Sure big broadcasters buy gear from people other than BMD, but they buy gear from BMD too, just like you.
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Denny Smith

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSun Apr 03, 2016 2:01 am

No one said major broadcast productions so not use BM cameras or studio equipment, and To. Is correct in that it is just not their (BM) major market, like it is for AJA or Grass Valley. However, BM camerasand equipment can be found on several major TV productions here in the US, the "Myth Busters" program being one, which uses Pocket cameras for handheld action shots, among others. Commercial broadcasting uses what ever fits their bill, be it a 20K Sony ENG camera or a Ursa 4K production camera, you will find both, but you will see more Sony or Panasonic broadcast type cameras than you do BM cameras.

The feeling is BM's main market in independent production facilities, where yiu will see complete BB studio setups centered around the ATEM and matrix video switching systems. Yes, there is higher end gear, and better options, but BM is still selling enough to develop new equipment and cameras.

While the existing BM Studio cameras are backwards compatible for cable TV operations (many are still using SD program content, and cameras, but the ones that are surviving, are starting to go HD, with an eye towards UHD capabile equipment, as they do not have the funds to keep rebuilding their production facilities every 10 years, but rather new gear that is backward compatible is being used during this transition period for them, and BM equipment is in the right price bracket for them, and other independent producers.
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSun Apr 03, 2016 2:23 am

Denny Smith wrote:No one said major broadcast productions so not use BM cameras or studio equipment


Tom Kinda said that:

Tom_Bassford wrote:Blackmagic's equipment is simply irrelevant in this discussion, it's not used by major broadcasters and it matters not one iota in the bigger picture.


Others (who I shouldn't quote as I he won't interact with me) have suggested that BMD aim their products excluding the Professional Broadcast market somehow. Words like "targeting" and "clear" are used in conjunction with list of smaller entities.

When BMD themselves talk about their products with tag lines like "The world's most advanced Production Switchers"

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/atem

Which would seem to be like they are targeting anyone looking for the world's most advanced vision mixer, I'd guess that would include those doing the biggest vision mixing projects.

Hey I know I'm being really annoying on this topic, but that's because there are some really out-there things being said.

I think it's weird BMD have not included 1080i formats with this camera, it's a choice, time will tell if it's a good one. Thanks to everyone who has enjoyed this saturday night fun, it's been a welcome diversion from coding every so often for me, but I'll leave you to it now.
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Tarek Saneh

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSun Apr 03, 2016 3:38 pm

Ursa mini is not for live, the image out of the camera in video mode is not sharp, it requires coloring its a cinema camera ..... I think the image of a 1/2 inch 3cmos camera is a lot better for live work
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Patrick Rinner

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSun Apr 03, 2016 4:10 pm

Hi Tarek.

Is that what you are saying just a guess or do you have some proof? E.g. Ursa Mini video material filmed with a 2/3 ENG lens.
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Tom_Bassford

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSun Apr 03, 2016 4:23 pm

Haakon Sundry wrote:Really? I'd like you to show me a single broadcaster that wants live production done as 1080i.
.

TECHNICAL STANDARDS FOR DELIVERY OF
TELEVISION PROGRAMMES TO BBC...
2 Technical Requirements - Video
NOTE - This section is applicable to both file and tape deliveries. Specific requirements which are different
for file and for tape are covered in separate sections 4 and 5.
2.1 High Definition Format
All material delivered for UK HD TV transmission must be:
 1920 x 1080 pixels in an aspect ratio of 16:9
 25 frames per second (50 fields) interlaced - now known as 1080i/25.
 colour sub-sampled at a ratio of 4:2:2
The HD format is fully specified in ITU-R BT.709-5 Part 2
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSun Apr 03, 2016 4:37 pm

[]
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSun Apr 03, 2016 4:53 pm

Patrick Rinner wrote:Hi Tarek.

Is that what you are saying just a guess or do you have some proof? E.g. Ursa Mini video material filmed with a 2/3 ENG lens.


I have the BMD studio camera, the video mode is not sharp enough even if you put details high in the camera menu, now when we use sensor in window mode in Ursa mini it will be the same sensor size as the studio camera, and i dont think that they change the video processing in the new camera, ENG cameras have a lot of video processing incamera, blackmagic awlays relay on davinci and post production
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSun Apr 03, 2016 4:56 pm

JohnBengston wrote:When BMD themselves talk about their products with tag lines like "The world's most advanced Production Switchers"

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/atem

Which would seem to be like they are targeting anyone looking for the world's most advanced vision mixer, I'd guess that would include those doing the biggest vision mixing projects.
.
They are targeting anyone who hasn't used any other vision mixing platform... Come on The world's most advanced Production Switchers" pull the other one..

The mid range products from Ross are a million times more advanced than the ATEM. Any full size production switcher from any other manufacturer out performs the ATEM.

ATEM + JustMacros is a powerful system which is approaching the power of some of the traditional broadcast systems for a fraction of the cost. However the ATEM on its own is probably the least powerful production switcher on the market. It is also the cheapest.
And to clarify what I meant by..
Tom_Bassford wrote:Blackmagic's equipment is simply irrelevant in this discussion, it's not used by major broadcasters and it matters not one iota in the bigger picture.

I meant that BMD pushing 4k / 3g SDI they are not about to get major broadcasters to change their workflow and formats to support these standards. Of course i'm aware that Blackmagic kit is used in broadcast generally for secondary systems which are not a direct part of the transmission chain. But it is chosen where it is appropriate to the needs of the broadcaster, not because it is the latest thing that blackmagic think everyone should be using.

This topic was once upon a time about the URSA Mini. This isn't a camera aimed at live broadcasters, certainly not aimed at people with large existing infrastructure. The "progressive only" stance isn't surprising nor is it that funny. The camera isn't intended for any of the users that have been discussed here.
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSun Apr 03, 2016 6:17 pm

Yeah it's easy to take quotes out of context and twist meanings (intentionally or not). The post I was replying to was saying that 1080i will be dead by the end of next year. The point I was trying to get across is that it won't and the broadcasters will only choose gear which suits their workflow regardless of what blackmagic think they should do.

I'm not aware of any major broadcaster who has blackmagic gear at the core of any essential live production process. Where it is used it is in environments where 100% reliability isn't required, where a technical fault will not take the channel off-air and where the cost benefit analysis of using the gear makes good business sense.

What annoys me is when people make claims that suggest "the ATEM is the most advanced production switcher in the world" and thus by extension it's suitable for any and all broadcast environments.


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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSun Apr 03, 2016 6:30 pm

Tom_Bassford wrote:What annoys me is when people make claims that suggest "the ATEM is the most advanced production switcher in the world" and thus by extension it's suitable for any and all broadcast environments.


Sorry If I ever ever implied that. Like I guess most people - I believe in; "right tool for the job, don't rule anything out, don't overspend your requirement", but of course I would never want to be suggesting BMD have all the solutions, they have some tools that in the right situation can be very useful and cost effective. For me, coz all my environments are still 1080i this URSA mini is now ruled out, whereas previous to this weekends discussion, I was considering grabbing one for testing and experimentation.

P.S. Sorry I deleted the post that Tom was replying to, I decided it was too argumentative and childish.... if Tom's comments above don't make sense, it's my fault not his.
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSun Apr 03, 2016 7:22 pm

As ever we are really on the same page.

To be completely clear I'm really pleased that the ATEM and other BMD gear offers broadcastable quality at a price point within reach of individuals. It's allowed me to implement workflows that used to be the sole preserve of major broadcasters in situations where the budgets would previously of made SD Composite the only option.

Personally I'm keen to have a go on the URSA Mini as the progressive issue is not a problem for the majority of my jobs and the prospect of having engineering control of a low cost camera is very good exciting.

The price point is still unmatched even if you include a texanex mini or whatever to do I to P conversion.


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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSun Apr 03, 2016 7:48 pm

Tom i dont know if the Ursa mini with b4 lens picture quality will be as good as ENG camera... What do you think?
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSun Apr 03, 2016 8:55 pm

I wouldn't like to say without seeing it, it depends on how good the optics in the B4 adapter are. Also the overall sensor quality, lens type and condition of lighting will all have implications.

For many environments the simple fact of having remote iris and colour balance should give better overall results than ENG type cameras where you are reliant on cameramen to balance exposure.




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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSun Apr 03, 2016 9:04 pm

Tarek Saneh wrote:Tom i dont know if the Ursa mini with b4 lens picture quality will be as good as ENG camera... What do you think?

I'm keen to get an answer from someone who has actually tried the BM B4 mount as it has glass in it that should in theory make up for panel difference. The comparisons to studio camera with 3rd party adaptor with out glass is not the same

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostSun Apr 03, 2016 10:26 pm

The 4.6k PL URSA hasn't shipped yet so nobody can answer this question. I suspect you'll have to wait until after NAB for any real world reports.


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Re: ursa mini - live

PostMon Apr 04, 2016 5:03 am

Yes, but has not the Mini 4K PL been shipped out? Any reports on it use with the B4 adapter?
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostMon Apr 04, 2016 10:31 am

Yes but the firmware is still too early, they haven't done the CCU control yet and are only supporting digital B4 lenses etc etc. There is little point making a knee jerk reaction with blackmagic kit as it often takes around a year or so for them to even get the basic functionality out to users in firmware updates.
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostMon Apr 04, 2016 11:21 am

Tom_Bassford wrote:TECHNICAL STANDARDS FOR DELIVERY OF
TELEVISION PROGRAMMES TO BBC...

I hear you, friend. :) Alas, this is the need, not the want.

I think perhaps it is the semantics of the word "broadcasting" which may be at the root of the different perspectives being conveyed here. I am not under any guise that major national broadcasters will be using this camera in a live production environment - but again, I don't believe that is their target audience. The whole "world's most advanced production switchers" is marketing fluff... but we all know this, right?

That doesn't mean that "12G SDI" or whatever doesn't have its place, however. Blackmagic have made possible affordable switching in 4K that you can record to a consumer SSD in a Hyperdeck, and that seems to me well beyond anything that the "major national broadcasters" are doing. These are two completely different markets and two completely different types of users and gear. I also know which one I believe makes up the majority of BMD purchases (hint: it's not the BBC).

My initial reaction was more to someone like Carlos Hervas, who said "WOW! There goes our studio upgrade plans!"

I'm curious exactly what he does. Is he a major national broadcaster? The words "upgrade" and "interlaced" just don't seem to go hand in hand to me.
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostMon Apr 04, 2016 11:53 am

Yeah but "needs" is what we deal in isn't it? If you want to make programs in NHK's Super HiVision format (8k 120fps 12bit) then that's all good and well and the kit exists (sort of) to do it. However you won't be broadcasting with it anytime soon.

1080i is where it's at for live broadcast TV production, it's highly unlikely to change any time soon. We all know that 3g looks better and makes more sense when displays are all natively progressive anyway, but the reality is that the transmission channels do not have the bandwidth to cope without changing the delivery codecs at which point you have to get everyone to buy a new TV or settop box. Given that they have only just switched off analogue TV telling consumers then need to go out and buy yet another box to decode the new new digital format is not going to happen.

Yes in the future it will all be webstreams / IPTV but this future is decades away. This is why all the serious 4k live TV production cameras still support 1080i (RED are not a serious TV production camera BTW, look at the Sony HDC4300 or F65)

Blackmagic has a lot to offer for webstreaming, and the prospect of low cost cameras which do proper 1.5G progressive rates (25p / 30p) is really good for web delivery. This is the sweet spot for current web production and I'm glad that Blackmagic are making it possible at a reasonable price point.
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostMon Apr 04, 2016 11:58 am

oh and 12G is just stupid, trying to put that much data down a single bit of copper makes no sense. If we ever see it being a real format then it will be transported over fibre.

web delivery is incapable for framerates above 30fps at HD nevermind 4k - this isn't going to change until there is widespread fibre to the home, which isn't even on the roadmap in the UK :( We are talking about decades rather than years for this level of bandwidth to be a reality. There really is no point in it at this moment in time.
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostMon Apr 04, 2016 12:11 pm

Tom_Bassford wrote:Yeah but "needs" is what we deal in isn't it?
Well, that there is the crux of the issue. That completely depends upon the user. You stated this yourself: I'm not aware of any major broadcaster who has blackmagic gear at the core of any essential live production process. Where it is used it is in environments where 100% reliability isn't required, where a technical fault will not take the channel off-air and where the cost benefit analysis of using the gear makes good business sense.

I couldn't agree more. As such, I don't believe that is the intended market for these cameras. To be frank, Ursa is really aimed at the independent filmmaking crowd more than anything - not broadcast users. But, yes, they have come up with a kitchy B4 option (just like they've made a 12G port and whatever else the BBC isn't using) for those people who are able to do something cool with it. For those who aren't being suffocated by aging "broadcast standards." In other words, anyone who is actually out there switching in 4K and using Ursa Minis for live concerts or IP streaming events or whatever other "broadcasts" they are doing is not broadcasting on major national television. And thus, I find it incredibly hard to believe that that kind of user needs to be shooting in an interlaced mode, either.
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostMon Apr 04, 2016 12:21 pm

I agree

For the core market then the URSA is a fine camera which represents a step up from a DSLR with the added bonus of being able to be used live. For the most part the lack of 1080i isn't an issue. Personally I'd like to see it as an option as it would enable the URSA to be used in mixed environments (eg I do quite a lot of music festivals work where we have a small number of dedicated IMAG cameras and then additional cameras from the TV coverage, the TV system will be 1080i or possible 1080psf - it is annoying to have to have additional converters to link the two systems which makes the URSA less attractive than it could be for this usage scenario)

I'm really interested to see how well they do the CCU control and if they will give us the ability to get a nice saturated rec709 out of it, or if they will forget about this and just give a flat cinema look which will need additional grading making it less suitable for live streaming / broadcast.
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostMon Apr 04, 2016 1:11 pm

Please PLEASE BMD move or lock this topic!!! It's way off topic "URSA mini - live".

Just to try to correct a few inaccuracies from above:

BT Sport in the UK are already broadcasting 4K (occasionally)

http://www.techradar.com/news/television/behind-the-scenes-of-bt-sport-s-4k-ultra-hd-revolution-1301138

Sky should be launching a 4K service later this year, but I think there are delays relating to HDMI 2.0 and ensuring the full 50fps gets through from the STB to the displays

http://www.techradar.com/news/television/sky-q-4k-will-run-at-50fps-when-the-service-launches-1314137

It's great commentators on this topic know what will happen in the future, who buys what from who, but its all a bit off topic on page 2.

I've got my fingers crossed BMD will choose to remain as compatible with industry standards as possible across all their products, and I am sure no-one wants an 3G A/B repeat.

It'll be great to hear reports from users doing Live Production with this camera once it's available and fully featured. But surely we can have new topics for that.
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostThu Apr 07, 2016 4:08 am

Im currently using to 4k PL's in a live concert enviroment. None of the product literature specifying that the cameras wont do 1080i was a frustration. Just states 1080. But a pair of Decimators and I'm working okay with my older ATEM switcher.
The B4 adapters are really nice since i was able to throw standard broadcast lenses from my inventory on them.

I think people's frustration is this could be a great live production option, but as it currently stands its just short. Adding downconversion hardware creates latency. Who likes hearing a snare get hit several frames before you actually see it? And I certainly don't think concert tours are going to be hopping to 1080p anytime soon. BNC length restrictions between I and P are significant.

On a good note the 3.1 Camera patch they put out made a huge positive change on the cameras. enough that the client noticed on the first day and said how vibrant the cameras looked that night compared to the night before.
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostThu Apr 07, 2016 8:11 am

Yes Matt, that pretty much sums up my feelings of frustration.

I'm hopeful that the 1080 25p workflow will be ok, it seems ideal on paper as its a 1.5g so cable requirements are more reasonable than for full fat 3G, however I'm not sure what things like LED processors will make of it, or indeed if it's possible to get it out of other camera which might be used. Obviously you need one of the new ATEMs for this too but that's not a significant overhead in the bigger picture.

Who knows what we will see this year at NAB? I'm sort of hoping for them to announce no major products and aim to refine the existing stuff a bit but this seems very unlikely.


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Re: ursa mini - live

PostThu Apr 07, 2016 10:00 am

From this page

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicursamini

Image

Although we don't "need" information about BMD products to be 100% accurate, I'm sure BMD would "want" it to be as accurate as possible, hence sentence 3 is probably better written as:

"That means URSA Mini is compatible with some of your existing HD and Ultra HD Equipment so you can plug it into things like the 4K ATEM live production switchers, on-set monitors, decks and more!"

Simply changing "all" to "some of" and prefixing the ATEM nonsense with 4K, would change something that isn't true at all into something that is essentially true.

Image

Although it would still be pretty disingenuous in my opinion, as although HD-SDI does cover the "progressive" 1.5G formats, it's a stretch to claim compatibility with HD, whilst ignoring 720p and 1080i. Claiming compatibility with 3G-SDI when the A/B problem still exists, and claiming Ultra-HD compatibility without offering Quad Link, to me seems like "intentional misleading", but perhaps I am wrong.

Or maybe BMD assume that all the original ATEMs have "cooked themselves" & "melted down" and therefore think they can claim this camera is compatible with the ATEMs out there. So BMD just FYI: Some of us install in suitable racks, ensure safe operating environments, and have been running ATEMs in 24/7/365 for years, and these ATEMs are NOT compatible with this camera at all.

If you aren't going to lock this topic, you should really correct your product information, or at least come onto this topic and explain what you were thinking???

How many pages of this do you want??? 3, 4, 5?????
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ursa mini - live

PostThu Apr 07, 2016 12:04 pm

It's a shame this isn't Facebook otherwise someone would of already posted the Michael Jackson popcorn meme....



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Re: ursa mini - live

PostThu Apr 07, 2016 12:40 pm

If the result is people asking about 1080i at NAB then....

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Re: ursa mini - live

PostThu Apr 07, 2016 1:21 pm

TBH I'd be happy if they just published actual specs of their gear. Not a made up wish list of stuff which they hope one day might become a feature.


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Re: ursa mini - live

PostThu Apr 07, 2016 9:51 pm

Tom_Bassford wrote:TBH I'd be happy if they just published actual specs of their gear. Not a made up wish list of stuff which they hope one day might become a feature.


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looool nice one Tom, its true
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Re: ursa mini - live

PostThu Apr 07, 2016 10:09 pm

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