Using iMicro Converter HDMI to SDI and Mini Recorder

I need help figuring out whether I can use a Micro Converter HDMI to SDI and Mini Recorder to run a long line from a HDMI camera to a computer with Wirecast.

I am producing live ice hockey webcasts. I typically use Canon Vixia cameras (HDMI output) connected via HDMI cable and UltraStudio Mini Recorders to a MacBook Pro with Wirecast 6. The use of HDMI cables limits the distance between cameras and computer. I want to increase the distance from computer to one or more camera by using SDI cables. I purchased a BMD MIcro Converter HDMI to SDI.

As a test I setup as follows: HDMI out from camera via HDMI cable into Micro Converter - SDI cable out from Micro Converter to Ultra Studio Mini Recorder's SDI connection - Thunderbolt out from Ultra Studio Mini Recorder to MacBook Pro and Wirecast.

My result was BMD Desktop Video Utility on the computer sees the Mini Recorder. The video input is set to SDI / 1080PsF On. Wirecast Source Settings sees the Mini Recorder as HD 1080i59.94 and displays a black screen - no image. If I change the video input from SDI to HDMI in the BMD Desktop Utility the result is the same.

I tried using a 75 foot SDI cable then tried again using a 5 foot SDI cable to make sure the length wasn't an issue. The HDMI cable from camera to Micro Converter and Thunderbolt cable from Mini Recorder to MacBook Pro were just 18 inches in both cases.

If I revert to my old webcast setup, take the Micro Converter out of the chain and just use HDMI cables and a Mini Recorder, the signal from camera gets through the Mini Recorder and I get a picture in Wirecast. The video input in this case is set to HDMI / 1080PsF On in the BMD Desktop Utility. Wirecast Source Settings sees the Mini Recorder as HD 1080i59.94

Am I misguided in thinking the Micro Converter/Mini Recorder setup should work for this application? Am I missing something?

If I can get this to work I want to use the second SDI output from the Micro Converter to connect an external monitor to the camera (the built-in monitors on most cameras are pretty small for covering hockey with its fast action and small puck.) I previously tried using a HDMI splitter at the camera to drive a HDMI external monitor and send the signal through to a Mini Recorder but doing so prevented the signal (black screen again) from getting through the Mini Recorder to MacBook and Wirecast.

U have any problem in WIrecast I think .. Maybe U must select input (hdmi/sdi) in wirecast ? or something similar .. HDMI->SDI converter is hw without setup .. U just power it , and it works (If its not broken) ..

This setup seems like it should work, 75 ft should be no problem over SDI. What model Canon camcorder are you using?

The one possibility I can think of is that might lead to this is if the camera is outputting 1080p60 (or actually 1080p5994) out of its HDMI port. This sometimes happens even if the camera is set to record in 1080i5994 or 1080p30 (1080p30 in particular is not supported by a lot of TVs and monitors so a lot of cameras will not output this format over HDMI even if it is being recorded internally).

Basically with HDMI there is a negotiation that happens between both ends. So when the camera connected over HDMI to the Mini Recorder, the Mini Recorder says the highest format it supports is 1080i5994 and so that's what the camera sends. But when the camera is connected to the HDMI to SDI Micro Converter, the Micro Converter says it can handle 1080p5994, so this is what the camera sends. The Micro Converter converts this signal to SDI and sends the 1080p5994 signal down to the Mini Recorder. The problem is that the Mini Recorder doesn't support 1080p5994, it maxes out at 1080p30 or 1080i5994, so it can't recognize the incoming signal (SDI doesn't have the same kind of negotiation like HDMI has).

Now I don't know for sure that this is the problem, but this is one possibility I have seen before.

In terms of troubleshooting, there are a few things you could try:

1) The Micro Converter has a small light to indicate that it detects a video input signal (this light is on the side with the SDI connectors). So you could check this to see if the converter thinks it is getting a signal.

2) If you have an SDI monitor you could connect the output of the HDMI to SDI Micro Converter to a monitor and see if you get a signal. Many monitors will display some information about the video input format if they detect a signal (although if my theory is correct you will need a monitor with 3G SDI capable inputs to handle the 1080p5994 input).

3) Alternatively, you could connect the SDI output from the Micro Converter to an SDI to HDMI converter and then connect that to an HDMI monitor. This should give you an idea if the HDMI to SDI Micro Converter is receiving the input signal and converting it to SDI successfully.

4) If there are any HDMI output settings on the camera, you could try adjusting these. Some cameras have an Auto option for their HDMI output, but also have settings to let you to try and force the camera to output 1080i or some other format.

5) You can also use Media Express (the capture software included with the Desktop Video drivers), to see if you can get an video signal displayed there. If it works in Media Express but not Wirecast, that suggests some Wirecast specific issue. If you can't get a video signal in Media Express, that suggests that the Mini Recorder isn't getting a video signal or is getting a signal in a format it can't handle.

1080i59.94 is Not a PSF format signal, it is a 2/3 pulldown in a interlace wrapper, try setting your input to either 1080i59.94 or 1080p30 with 2/3 pull down removal. The Micro converter does not do a pull down removal either, yiu will need to do this on the computer side. If yiu can not do a pull down removal, then yiu will need a HDMI to SDI converter that will do,the pull down removal on the fly, like the Atomos Connect, which however, costs a lot more ($300), bit is self powered and takes an external battery (included) for 6-10 hours of use.

The cameras I am currently using are Canon Vixia HF R62.

According to the specs the camera can output in two formats: AVCHD Prorgressive and MP4.

In AVCHD it can output 1920 x1080p / 60 fps ((28 Mbps), 1920 x1080i / 60 fps (17 Mbps),1920 x1080p / 30 fps (24 Mbps). It can also output 1440 x 1080p (5 Mbps.)

In MP4 it can output 1920 x1080p / 60 fps (35 Mbps), 1920 x1080p / 30 fps (24 Mbps),1920 x1080p / 24 fps (17 Mbps). It can also output 1280 x 720 (4 Mbps.)

Upon checking my camera settings it appears I've been using it set for MP4 1920x1080p / 24 fps (17 Mbps). This appears to have been the camera's MP4 default. I opted for MP4 because the camera instructions recommended this for live streaming. This format has worked for streaming via HDMI and the Mini Recorder. Just not when using the Micro Converter HDMI to SDI.

Sounds like I need to figure out which format the camera can out put that will go through the Micro Converter down to the Mini Recorder in a format that they all support. I'm still new to all this so any suggestions based on the info presented here that could save me time would be appreciated.

If I can get the HDMI to SDI issue solved AND find a reliable solution for connecting a third camera to my MacBook Pro using USB3 (the two Thunderbolt ports are used by Mini Recorders and the Vixias) I intend to purchase a higher end camera. Unfortunately I keep seeing a lot of bad reviews of the BMD Intensity Shuttle USB and mixed reviews of competitive models by Magewell. But If I can solve that issue, I plan to get a Canon XA30 - for use as the main camera at center ice, then use the smaller Vixia cameras to cover the zones at ice level and intermission interviews. This will be a nice replacement for my old Canon XL1 for other projects. Since I'm live streaming, I don't see the sense in going to 4K at this time. I could spend the extra $500 and get the XA35 with built-in SDI, but I want to connect an external monitor. So instead of the extra $500 I can spend $85 on a Micro Converter that has two SDI outputs and get the long cable run and the external monitor support while not compromising on any of the other camera features.

OK, MP4 and AVCHD are recording codecs, not what the camera outputs via its HDMI. Most cameras output a video signal, i.e. 1080p30 or 1080i60, 4.2.2 8 or 10-bit type signal. This is what the Micro Converter is looking for. To see what the little Canon camera is actually outputting, hook it to a TV monitor via HDMI, then press TV info button, it will show the camera output signal type.

Setting the camera to MP4, gives yiu a MP4 recording on the SD card, that you can use to stream on line with without any conversion, this is what Canon is recommending. Live streaming doe not utilize either codec, but the live video signal from the camera, and that signal must be compatible with the devices you are imputing the signal to, in this case the Micro Converter.
DS

Just a little terminology thing, but on "yet another video mode topic", lets try to keep the language correct.

MP4 and AVCHD are recording codecs

Neither MP4 nor AVCHD are codecs, they are MUX formats, often called container formats.

A codec is software that applies compression / decompression to video or audio. The MUXer, at the most basic level, describes how the compressed Audio/Video packets are laid out in a stream or file.

https://wiki.videolan.org/Codec/

Thanks John for the correction, I used the wrong term, but they are the "container" for a recorded or "streamed" codex, not something that determines a camera output per se, but used in "creating" the recorded camera file.
Cheers

Sorry, if it came across in any way critical, it was not supposed to, it's just there is a lot of newbie users on this forum, and a lot of industry terminology.

Video Modes are really simple, and yet appear, to me, to be the root cause of the vast majority of questions on the forum.

To the original poster, the low speed progressive HD video modes can sometimes be a little tricky with Decklink & BMD in general. e.g. the original line of ATEMs don't support, and the trick with Decklink (and this includes the mini-recorders), is to ensure you understand the difference between PsF and P, or even just "know for sure" that when your source says it is 1080p24 it isn't actually 1080PsF23.98.

Always worth toggling back and forth in the BMD Control Panel Applet (and restarting your capture apps)

{old firmware running where this screen shot taken from, but all have this switch}


This is toggled at the card level, not as a setting within capture / streaming software.

If the problems, as is implied, come only when the HDMI->SDI converter is used, there is the possibility that the EDID is playing a part, and the camera is auto-changing it's video mode to a 3G 1080p format, at which point the quality of the SDI cable becomes much more relevant, as well as the fact that if at 3G a mini recorder won't work, as the Mini-recorders are 1.5G only.

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/ultrastudiothunderbolt/techspecs/W-DLUS-04

It seems to be the Original Poster wasn't really clear on what video mode they are using, and hence the entire discussion doesn't really get anywhere. My guess is the HDMI-SDI convertor supports 3G, as does the camera, so they negotiate to talk at 3G, probably 1080p59.94. Obviously when the HDMI is directly attached to the mini-recorder, the camera realizes the end-point can only run at 1080i, and switches accordingly.

The solution is probably to insert a HDMI detective between the Camera and the HDMI-SDI converter, such that the camera can "be told" to speak 1080i or low speed 1080p out of it's HDMI port.

http://www.gefen.com/kvm/ext-hd-edidpn.jsp?prod_id=14859

As regards the question of 3 cameras (mini-recorders) into 2 thunderbolt ports. I'd agree the BMD USB3 products have had some bad reports, and with the exception of the H.264 encoder, I've never got BMD USB devices to work reliably.

My recommendation is to ditch the mini-recorders, and use a PCIe TB expansion chassis such as:

http://magma.com/products/thunderbolt-expansion/expressbox-3t/

With a couple of Deck Duos, or even a Quad, although I would worry slightly about a Decklink Quad's 8-lane PCIe requirement. Theoretically the above linked box will support a 8-lane Quad card, but the cheaper single slot version won't (even though it's physically got a 16x slot). The other nice thing about two Duos, is the BNCs are standard size, allowing for easier cable termination.

This would have, for me, the advantage of having all your SDI terminate at a little box under the table, with just a thunderbolt cable coming up to the laptop. rather than a mess of cables for mini-recorders / Intensity devices and all the 12V mains transformers..

Good description no excellent point John, no worries, you did not come off too critical at all. Appreciate the added info. The OP originally thought his camera was outputting either PSF, and he could switch the camera HDMI output to stream out a MP4 or AVCHD signal, which the small Canon camera does not, it only records these formats, and outputs a video signal, but I can not find any info on weither it outputs progressive for a 2/3pull down interlaced 1080i. Doubt the little Canon video csm type camera has 3G output either, as this is also not listed in the camera specs.
Cheers

Doubt the little Canon video csm type camera has 3G output either, as this is also not listed in the camera specs.
Cheers

Think it probably does:

The specs page here, like Thomas Brown posted lists 1080p@60 (my guess is it'll be 59.94) as a recording format, and since it has HDMI type C connector, my guess is it has (at least) HDMI 1.3a compliance, in which case, it'll most likely negioate 1080p60/59.94 with any devices that are willing to co-operate.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1110406-REG/canon_0278c004_32gb_vixia_hf_r62.html

I'm fairly certain, as Dave Del Vecchio also already said (when I re-read the entire topic more carefully), that the problem is this HDMI/EDID negotiation.

Camera (1080p60) -> BMD Micro Converter (supports 1080p60) -> SDI cable (no EDID communication supported) -> Mini Recorder (1080i59.94 Max) -> Computer.

I've got a similar Canon camera and it does the same, although you can force it through the menus to 1080i.

A fairly prolific poster named Tom has mentioned on "just a few topics", BMD could make all this go away by making the EDID of their mini-converters user editable through the USB and a fairly simple management tool. A pretty reasonable suggestion, and who knows one day they might even make it so?!!?

For now a Gefen HDMI Detective programmed (push one button) whilst connected to the Mini-Recorder, then attached (no need for power after programming) between camera and micro-converter WILL (99.99%) solve this guy's problem.

And of course, to twist it up a bit, if the O.P. really wants 3 cameras and invests in the PCIe Box with Duos, it all goes away (cable quality permitting), as Duo2s and Quad2s both support 1080p50/59.94 3G formats.

So to get two cameras working with Thunderbolt and the suggested connection chain, they need to add the Gefen Detectives, but if 3 or 4 external sources are the true requirement, then the possibility to run at 3G exists (Thunderbolt 2 connectivity existing on the Mac of course), in which case no Gefen detectives are required.

Better to plan from the start and invest correctly, otherwise it is very easy to end up falling short of what you really want to do, or over-spending and ending up with loads of bits in a draw you thought you were going to use, but ended up not using because of a bit-by-bit approach to system design.

Thanks for all the responses. As has been surmised, although I’ve worked with a wide range of still and video cameras, as well as editing applications such as Final Cut Pro and Premier, I am new to live production. So I apologize if I confuse some of the issues as I try to sort all this information.

I follow the point concerning MP4/AVCHD as recording codecs, not camera output. I connected the camera to a HDMI field monitor that indicates it is receiving 1080P 60 from the camera. According to Canon that is the highest output level (1060P 60, 35 Mbps.)

To the earlier point, the camera’s menu settings for record are set to 1080P 24, 17 Mbps, so it would seem the camera disregards the recording setting and outputs the highest possible setting.

However…

When I connect the Canon Vixia HF R62 camera via HDMI to a Mini Recorder (connected in turn to the MacBook Pro via Thunderbolt) then open the BMD Desktop Video Utility (DVU), the Mini Recorder appears. It indicates the input is 1080i59.94. The DVU interface gives me the option to select SDI or HDMI, as well as a checkbox for “1080psF on.”

If I select HDMI - regardless of whether I check the 1080PsF on box, the signal appears in Source Settings of Wirecast 6. Those settings indicate the Video Format is 1080i59.94. There is a Deinterlace Video checkbox that is checked by default.

I can select the Mini Recorder as a source and it appears in the Wirecast workflow and can be streamed. This is how I have streamed several events to date.

When trying to test the HDMI to SDI approach, if I connect the camera to the HDMI to SDI Micro Converter via HDMI cable, the indicator light next to the BNC connector on the opposite side lights up. If I then connect the Micro Converter to the Mini Recorder via SDI (BNC cable) then complete the connection to the MacBook Pro via Thunderbolt, the indicator on the Mini Recorder (Thunderbolt side) is illuminated. The DVU sees the Mini Recorder. I select SDI instead of HDMI this time. The Mini Recorder shows up in Wirecast Source Settings, again as 1080i59.94, but all I get is a black screen.

Under this setup, if I open the latest version of BMD Converters Setup. It says “No converters found.” Hmm...

I can’t see anyway to adjust the inputs or outputs of either the Mini Recorder or Micro Converter (since it doesn’t show up in the related utility.)

It is really frustrating to get components from the same manufacturer (BMD) that are promoted as working seamlessly together, only to find they do not. At least not when used with today's consumer or prosumer cameras.

As one responder suggested, perhaps it is a EDID issue - yet another confusing subject for live production novices. I previously purchased a HDMI Detective Plus when I was testing a HDMI splitter to see if I could use a HDMI field monitor with the Canon Vixia while sending the other line to the Mini Recorder. But the instructions were cryptic at best and I couldn’t get it to work so I returned it.

Another responder suggested a different converter from Atomos. I’m familiar with them as I have a Ninja 2 that I use with my DSLR rig. I even looked at their converter at one point. But I’d really like to make the BMD solution work and not have to shell out more money.

I’m really trying to “get” this stuff, but it seems like a lot of “black boxes” are needed to overcome some compatibility and usability issues that ought to have been sorted by now - either by manufactures agreeing to standards or an end user who has made it work then posting a successful workflow and parts list. That’s exactly what I plan to do if I can get it to work.

Seriously, people are live streaming direct from their smartphones or GoPros to Facebook or YouTube these days. That’s great if you don’t need to switch cameras to follow action or include graphics such as a scoreboard. I have to believe there are other folks out there who are trying to live stream sports or events with setups not unlike what I’m assembling. I know until recently a lot of this was the province of big production units using truckloads of equipment. But just like desktop publishing revolutionized the print industry, so too are desktop video editors and live production solutions like Wirecast opening up live production. Sure my type of setup isn’t going to rival a network sports production, but I should be able to produce a pretty solid webcast for my audience of minor league hockey fans.

Any help making sense of all this would be really appreciated.

Seriously.......

I connected the camera to a HDMI field monitor that indicates it is receiving 1080P 60 from the camera

This is all the confirmation you need that what I and "Dave Del Vecchio" have told you is true beyond any doubt whatsoever.

Your camera is outputting 3G 1080p59.94 (maybe 60, but I doubt it). The mini-recorder won't support that format, and is why you get black when on SDI, and why it negotiates 1080i59.94Hz - or in fact probably 1080-PsF-29.97 when on HDMI direct to the mini-recorder.

End of!!!!! No debate, no uncertainty, no question!!!

If you can't find the menu in your camera to set the output HDMI format (and there is no guarantee one exists), THE ONLY solution you have available is an HDMI detective, or a format conversion box(such as Decimator MD-HX). If you go the format conversion, you will introduce a latency, the Gefen Detective won't add any latency, it'll just tell the camera to output a 1.5G signal.

* HDMI detectives work perfectly for your use-case.
* Power the detective, plug it into the the HDMI input of the mini recorder, press the LEARN/Program button.
* wait 5 seconds.
* Unplug it, plug it between the camera and BMD HDMI->SDI converter (no external power)
* Done.

This is the extent of the instructions you require.

It is really frustrating to get components from the same manufacturer (BMD) that are promoted as working seamlessly together, only to find they do not. At least not when used with today's consumer or prosumer cameras.

What ?!?!?!?, you get this is nonsense don't you? You purchased incompatible devices. BMD can be blamed for a lot, but not your buying decisions.

I’m really trying to “get” this stuff, but it seems like a lot of “black boxes” are needed to overcome some compatibility and usability issues that ought to have been sorted by now - either by manufactures agreeing to standards or an end user who has made it work then posting a successful workflow and parts list. That’s exactly what I plan to do if I can get it to work.

Been done for you above, use a 3G compatible capture card such as a Decklink Duo in a PCIe external expansion box instead of mini-recorders, or use a Gefen Detective to force the camera to the correct mode for your end-point (the mini-recorder).

Sorry if these messages come across as harsh, but instead of denying the problem is of your own making, and complaining about manufacturers, ask meaningful questions!!

[Adam Badlotto]

Hi Thomas,

Adam B from Blackmagic Design here. I read through this thread and wanted to suggest a few things if you haven't tried them already:

-Try feeding the SDI output directly to a monitor from the Micro Converter. See if you get an image. See if the monitor reports the resolution and frame rate.

-Some cameras output a resolution and frame rate via HDMI that is different compared to what it is recording internally. Check to see if there is a Video Output or HDMI Output option that you can adjust in the camera.

-If your camera has an HDMI Control option, turn this OFF.

-If your camera allows you to display GUI overlays over the HDMI out, turn these OFF.

-See if you can get a signal in our Media Express software. Make sure Wirecast isn’t running when you load Media Express. The two can conflict and cause one another not to receive any signal or even recognize the USMR.

-Is there anyway that you can verify that the Micro Converter is not defective? Can you pass another camera source through it and then output directly to an SDI monitor?

-Install the latest Converter 7.0.3 Utility on your computer. Open the Utility and then connect the Micro Converter to the computer over USB. See if the Utility recognizes the device. You can download the latest Converter Utility here:

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/suppor ... converters

-What Dave Del Vecchio said about HDMI facilitating EDID communication is correct. It is possible that when using the Micro Converter, this EDID communication is being interrupted (SDI doesn't support EDID), thus causing the camera to output a format that the USMR cannot accept (such as 1080p60).

Seriously, people are live streaming direct from their smartphones or GoPros to Facebook or YouTube these days. That’s great if you don’t need to switch cameras to follow action or include graphics such as a scoreboard.

What's your point?

Read what John is writing. You bought the wrong gear. Don't blame anyone else for your mistakes.