Talkback with ATEM 2ME prod studio 4k

I have the ATEM 2ME production studio 4K. I also have a few URSA minis. I am trying to implement talkback using the talkback XLR in and out of the ATEM. issue i am having is that any audio that is input into the XLR comes straight back out the XLR out. It does also goto the cameras and comes back from them, but the in to out causes feedback to the director. Is this normal? Is anyone else experiencing this?
It is not very usable in this state.

Cheers
Woody

Is anyone using the talkback XLR in and out on the ATEM?
If so does it cause an audio feedback loop from in to out?

I've previously used the audio/mic input on a studio camera as the director talk to the operator, then just taken the audio out from the 4 wire on the back of the ATEM. Not the most elegant solution but it worked for the short term.

Thanks Bruce.
I am convinced that my ATEM is faulty. Although it is a strange fault that is causing the audio to route this way.
I even tried a basic setup mic (via a mixer) into the XLR in and powered speaker on XLT out. result was complete feed back from mic to speaker. Strange that this post has had over 100 views but no one was able to confirm if this behaviour is normal or not.

Have you contacted BM technical support?

[Gary Adams]

The Talkback XLR In and Out is intended to interface to 3rd party communication systems. Feeding audio in will indeed be placed on the output as that would be the only way to get In and Out of the system. Going through the 4 wire to 2 wire interface should balance the microphone to headset volume. If you simply connect a microphone and amplifier to the input the output of the 2ME will be normal level, not "side tone" compensated. If all you want to do is add a microphone and headset to the 2ME, then probably one of the above methods mentioned would be better.

Regards, Gary

Hi Gary,
Am I understanding you correctly? Are you saying feeding audio into the talkback XLR in and having it come back a full level to the XLR out is NORMAL? Surely the XLR in would feed an SDI audio embedder on ch15/16 and would be sent to the camera. the opposite would apply the audio (embedded in the camera) would be de-embedded in the ATEM and sent out the XLR out.
I am using a Clearcom talkback system via a 2w to 4w interface and it is feeding back as all of the audio is being sent back with the ATEM. It is not a workable solution (if i am understanding you correctly) that i reduce the headset (speaker) volume as then I won't hear the camera operators talking back to me.
I can see no reason why the ATEM would operate in this way.
Hopefully we are misunderstanding each other.

And yes Adam i spoke with BM support and was told that the XLR in and out is for 3rd party talkback systems. Which is exactly what I'm trying to use it for.

Is still think my ATEM is faulty as now the audio is not going to the cameras.
I have proved the cameras are ok via using a audio to SDI mini converter

[Gary Adams]

Hello Peter. One thing to check. Make sure you are feeding the Program 1 or 2, or Auxiliary outputs to the cameras and not the HD Program feed as the down converted output was not designed for this.

The XLR is simply embedded and de-embedded access to SDI channels 15/16. There is no "Side Tone" compensation as this is usually done at each individual intercom station. The director's headset or speaker feed at the base station should compensate for their microphone level and not at the ATEM or it would affect every station on the com line.

Regards, Gary

Sounds like you need to null your system. Your 2wire 4wire interface should have the controls for this.


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Hi Gary, Hi Tom,

I think we are starting to get somewhere thanks.
It is possible that I am NOW using the wrong SDI out. As in my earlier testing I had talkback to the camera.
And then during further testing it stopped so that probably explains that.
I am not looking for any sidetone compensation. But what I am experiencing is much more than sidetone it is a complete what goes in what comes out loop of the talkback XLR. And how you explain "The XLR is simply embedded and de-embedded access to SDI channels 15/16" is exactly how I thought the talkback would work.
So, if that is the case I should NOT have any feedback. The XLR in embeds to the camera. The XLR out de-embeds from the camera. If the camera mic (talkback) is on mute there should be no feedback.
I am not expecting the ATEM to do any levels I understand and agree that that is done externally.
As to nulling the 2w/4w well yeah thats the problem because of the ATEM feeding back it won't null.
Thats what alerted me to the issue because it wouldn't null. I removed the ClearCom out of the picture (for testing) and found I have the feedback with a very simple setup of mic into to XLR and powered speaker out and I had the feedback.
So do I have a fault? That my ATEM feeds the XLR in straight back to the XLR out OR is that by design?

Thanks for your help.

was your mic pointing at your speaker when you did the test?

do you get feedback if you replace the speaker with headphones?

The problem is that Talkback Out is not the pure audio deembedded and mixed together from all inputs but instead the Talkback In is also mixed to it first.

I would prefer to have it implemented the other way round:
Talkback Out = All SDI-Inputs (Ch 15/16) deembedded and mixed together (RX)
Talkback In = Embedded to Ch15/16 (TX) on all Outputs

That way you would be able to adjust the talk/listen mixing level by external systems and you could prevent an audio feedback loop on talkback if looping sdi outputs to inputs (Hyperdeck Play/Record etc.)

And of course you could use the Talkback Input to embed any auxilliary audio to Ch15/16 for separate recording if you are not using the talkback for production communication.

There are a few options to sort out the loopback issue.

A hyperdeck can be input via HDMI which doesn't have 15/16 audio channels.
Or use a decimator MD-Cross to remap the audio channels in your SDI.

It would be nice if the hyperdeck had options for SDI channel mapping but it doesn't and probably never will.


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[Gary Adams]

Tom is correct. I should have listened when you said "feedback" as any device in EE mode that has ATEM program feeding the input and output feeding the ATEM will feedback such as the hyperdecks. This would apply to SDI channel 15/16 only. If they are in playback, this won't happen, but it is a trap with this arrangement. Sorry for the miss understanding.

If not using the internal talkback capability of the 2ME, there is a configuration that will disable channels 15 and 16 in the ATEM Setup.

Regards, Gary

Could we suggest a per input / output ability to disable 15+16 please Gary? There are many situations where this feedback loop can cause issues, and others where proving a feed with comms embedded could be a total disaster!


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[Gary Adams]

Thanks Tom. I will submit that to the Developers.

Regards, Gary

Thanks Tom. I will submit that to the Developers.

Regards, Gary

Yes please that will sort out my issue if that is implemented.
Thanks all.

The problem is that Talkback Out is not the pure audio deembedded and mixed together from all inputs but instead the Talkback In is also mixed to it first.

I would prefer to have it implemented the other way round:
Talkback Out = All SDI-Inputs (Ch 15/16) deembedded and mixed together (RX)
Talkback In = Embedded to Ch15/16 (TX) on all Outputs

That way you would be able to adjust the talk/listen mixing level by external systems and you could prevent an audio feedback loop on talkback if looping sdi outputs to inputs (Hyperdeck Play/Record etc.)

And of course you could use the Talkback Input to embed any auxilliary audio to Ch15/16 for separate recording if you are not using the talkback for production communication.

Gary, Uli's preference is ideal. Please pass this on too.
cheers

Is anyone using the talkback XLR in and out on the ATEM?
If so does it cause an audio feedback loop from in to out?

Well on my 2ME broadcast studio 4K i found today that if nothing is connected to the XLR ports. And you unmute ch 15/16 in the configuration it will create a feedback loop at it's own..

You unmute and after 1 minute the channels reach critical mass max 0DB tone like 1Khz but slightly off..
I can visualize it with a Decimator MD-Cross which has the ability to show all 16 channels of audio as overlay to the monitor..

So it would be a good thing if the feedback level is settable in the configuration screen. (so you can set it but also can put it off to solve the problems above..)

[Gary Adams]

This feedback is only caused by feeding Ch 15/16 out of the ATEM directly back in to one of the switcher inputs. This would only happen with a recorder device in EE mode in to out. Setting a level will not clear this as feeding out to in is not an intended function. If you remove these inputs, the feedback will go away. This feedback has nothing to do with the Talkback in and out. For people not intending to use the internal talkback functions of the 2ME, Channels 15/16 may be disabled in the Configuration menu. I do realize this may seem complicated. Feel free to PM me if something is not clear.

Regards, Gary

Totally clear now.!! My Bad i had a Aux output feed back into an input. (because sometimes you need to route things to other sources... ) and totally forget about that causing a feedback loop..

Indeed it could be handy if you could select it by channel.. But i realize there are more important bug fixes that take priority in the mixer.

The problem is that Talkback Out is not the pure audio deembedded and mixed together from all inputs but instead the Talkback In is also mixed to it first.

I would prefer to have it implemented the other way round:
Talkback Out = All SDI-Inputs (Ch 15/16) deembedded and mixed together (RX)
Talkback In = Embedded to Ch15/16 (TX) on all Outputs

That way you would be able to adjust the talk/listen mixing level by external systems and you could prevent an audio feedback loop on talkback if looping sdi outputs to inputs (Hyperdeck Play/Record etc.)

And of course you could use the Talkback Input to embed any auxiliary audio to Ch15/16 for separate recording if you are not using the talkback for production communication.

Total Agree +1 For me on taking away audio of the input XLR on the Output XLR

I also get a phasing sound on the URSA Broadcast headsets which seems to be caused by the latency difference of the audio coming back from the Atem v's the Side tone Audio off the camera.

The TV studio HD (which I haven't tried) Seems to say that it has an output for each camera that you plug in giving you a mix minus the sdi input which would stop the phasing problem.

Does anyone know if the talk back converters work in this way?

We definitely need the option to exclude single inputs from the talkback function in the ATEM software or mute channels 15+16 inside the Hyperdecks.


We use our Hyperdecks Studio (the old version) often to do slow motion replays with a 3 machine slomo controller. Recently we found out that this is no longer possible due to the fact that we get instant feedback in the talkback circuit if the decks switch to back recording. There is no simple way to prevent that. We would have to use an embedder on every single Hyperdeck channel or a decimator to change the routing of the channels.

We have that problem since we use our new Ursa Broadcast cameras together with the talkback option inside our Broadcast Studio 2ME. No solution until today.


So please BMD make your products usable again and add an option to exclude ATEM inputs from the talkback circuit.

Cheers

Robert

So, did anyone make this work 100% yet?

So far my result is whatever goes into the 2me comes out.
I saw the pitfalls others discussed, like hyper decks etc.. To be sure I performed an isolated test. (All my inputs & outputs to the 2ME are routed by 40x40 video hub, so I turned off the hub.

Still, whatever goes in, comes out, (with a small delay). Creates havoc on the rest of my talkback system.

Suggestions or clues? Cheers!

So, did anyone make this work 100% yet?

So far my result is whatever goes into the 2me comes out.
I saw the pitfalls others discussed, like hyper decks etc.. To be sure I performed an isolated test. (All my inputs & outputs to the 2ME are routed by 40x40 video hub, so I turned off the hub.

Still, whatever goes in, comes out, (with a small delay). Creates havoc on the rest of my talkback system.

Suggestions or clues? Cheers!

No, it‘s still the same issue. BMD did not release a fix for this problem, yet. Rumor has it, that it‘s hopefully fixed at NAB 2019.