Recording multiple streams

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Frank Blazek

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Recording multiple streams

PostMon Jan 23, 2017 3:24 pm

Hi,

we want to record a music session with multiple cameras in FullHD and be able to record all (lets say four) videos to a computer. Can we do it with Blackmagic ATEM Television studio? Or what piece of gear do we need?

Thanks Frank
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Jack Fairley

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Re: Recording multiple streams

PostMon Jan 23, 2017 8:44 pm

The TVS will only record the program out over USB. Probably the cheapest way to record four outputs would be to use a Decklink Quad capture card and a software encoder like Wirecast that will let you record invidiual video inputs separately.
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Thomas Seewald

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Re: Recording multiple streams

PostMon Jan 23, 2017 8:50 pm

The ATEM television studio is not able to record anything. It has an USB port, which can be used for recording the program out with an external computer.

If you want an ISO recording for four sources, you will need a powerful computer with huge harddisks. Maybe think about using four cheep Hyperdeck Shuttles, which record on SSDs.

Maybe ask Anton from openslomo.zu. He developed a slow motion solution for up to 4 sources, based on a CasparCG. For doing slomos, he need to record all the streams on a Computer. That is what you need....
thos-berlin - Thomas S e e w a l d
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roger.suski

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Re: Recording multiple streams

PostMon Jan 23, 2017 9:17 pm

If you are in fact using the TVS, you will need to distribute your camera feeds prior to the switcher. ie) one copy of the camera feed goes to the switcher, an other copy goes to the isolation recorder. You could do this with individual distribution amps, or you could get a small 12x12 Smart Videohub. This will be more flexible as you can then route any of your cameras/program to a QC monitor.

Convergent Design makes a device Odyssey 7Q that will record up to 4 isolation records. It has an LCD panel that shows your quad split of the incoming sources. It will also do a a quick and dirty switched record simply by clicking on the image.

To be fair, you could do a similar solution with BMDs VideoAssist (but you'd need 4 of them, and not sure if TC would be locked between units)
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Frank Blazek

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Re: Recording multiple streams

PostTue Jan 24, 2017 3:31 pm

Hello and thank you for your replies.

There are basically two things that we want to do and we dont have any equipment yet (except for some DSLRs).

First thing is to be able to capture video and audio from- cameras to PC, to be able to record with one "red" button, record 4-5 streams to a PC. We will be recording in a studio, so there is no need for a standalone recorder.

The other thing is to be able to do FullHD live stream from these 4-5 cameras, with the ability of adding logos and things like that. In this case, recording the stream only would be sufficient, but recording separate video tracks would be better.

Thanks
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Jack Fairley

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Re: Recording multiple streams

PostTue Jan 24, 2017 6:50 pm

Sounds like you are looking for a software renderer/encoder like Vmix or Wirecast, probably with Decklink Quad 2 for inputs. You will also need high performance storage to record 5 feeds.
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BBSamir

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Re: Recording multiple streams

PostWed Mar 07, 2018 12:02 pm

Hi guys,

I would like to upgrade our system to be able to record all camera sources simultaneously (normally 5 cameras). Currently we only recording PGM and the cameras record to SD cards as well... Should I use 5 Hyperdeck shuttles in addition to the Hyperdeck Studio 2? or is there another solution for that? (I was using Tricaster 8000 on my previous workplace which could do it) I don't wanna change our current BMD system rather just upgrade it if it's possible.

Thank you in advance!


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Tim Douglas

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Re: Recording multiple streams

PostThu Mar 08, 2018 9:06 am

Is there a reason you NEED to record straight to PC? You should be able to output HDMI for streaming and still record in-camera for post-production later. At least with the GH series cameras. In that case, just get an ATEM for switching and graphics.

If you do need to record synced isolated recordings and have an edit-ready file with multiple camera angles, then take a look at the Odyssey 7Q (or 7Q+ or Apollo) as roger mentioned. It will record & output a live-edit, 3 additional ISO's AND provide an XML that can be imported into a video editor to give you a head start on post production.

Rent one and see how it goes. I'd like to hear more about you use case too.
Hope I've understood, I'm writing this before coffee. Good luck.
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BBSamir

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Re: Recording multiple streams

PostThu Mar 08, 2018 1:58 pm

Maybe the previous comment is not even for me, because I don't wanna record to PC I just didn't want to open a new topic for my similar question.

If it wasn't for me than sorry, otherwise my recording is the following.

We have a talkshow shooting, and for this we use 5 cameras. All of them records to their own SxS cards.
In the controll room we live edit and record the PGM. I would like to upgrade the system in a way that we could record all 5 cameras in the controll room, just like the PGM without the need of memory cards.

Our editor needs the "clean" videos from the cameras, in case there is a mistake has been made through live edit.

Thank you
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rogersuski

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Re: Recording multiple streams

PostThu Mar 08, 2018 5:22 pm

Wouldn't the SxS media come in as a "compressed" format making the practical storage of the rest of the ISOs a bit more workable as a just-in-case scenario? I'm guessing that you can't or aren't get/ting house TC to your cameras, or would rather not do a scratch track to sync the ISOs to the line cut.

The workflow you're asking for is rather spendy. The Odyssey unit is pretty good for recording ISOs at a good price point, but doesn't have integration to the ATEM to create an EDL.

Tools On Air make Just:In Multi along with Live:Cut which will create an EDL/XML file from your line cut and has native hooks to get the tally info from ATEM. That is not an inexpensive solution.

Softron also make a multi-input recorder as well as an EDL generator. Also not an inexpensive option.

SiennaTV also make a multi-input recorder but I don't think they have the EDL piece.

At one time, it was possible to use ScopeBox to record multiple video sources simultaneously, but I've not attempted that recently. That's kinda hacky though.
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BBSamir

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Re: Recording multiple streams

PostThu Mar 08, 2018 7:36 pm

Thank you all for the answers but I'm still lost a bit. (Sorry for that)
Let me put it that way...
Previously I was using Tricaster 8000 with that I was able to record all sources separately...PGM, cameras, audio... I did it in a manageable and space saving mp4 format with h264 codec... Now I would like to do the same here with BMD... We don't need anything fancy other than a 1920x1080 50i which we can use as a security copy of all the sources.

We are a production company making TV programs 2-3weeks prior to airing (it's done by the channel itself).

The cameras are not synced, we just use a clapper board instead.

I just really want to save the time I spend running to the cams,fetch the cards,run back to the control room,copy all the material to the server,than back to the set, format them all...so for we can start the next episode :)

I'm sure there is a solution for that... I'm just still learning about the BMD so I don't wanna say that Tricaster is better... it's just different. :)

Cheers, and thank you
ATEM 1 M/E Production Studio 4K
ATEM 1 M/E Broadcast Panel
SmartScope Duo 4K
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rogersuski

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Re: Recording multiple streams

PostThu Mar 08, 2018 9:47 pm

Short answer, no. You cannot replicate the Tricaster "virtual studio" with a BMD switcher. There is no upgrade path to make a hardware switcher create graphics or record video.

You've been given many alternative workflows.

Your choices to achieve what you had.
1) Get a Tricaster 8000
2) Get a computer running vMix or Wirecast with a 4 input capture card, record isos
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BBSamir

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Re: Recording multiple streams

PostThu Mar 08, 2018 10:33 pm

Thank you...
I don't wanted to be offensive by mentioning Tricaster :(
Just thought that maybe using Hyperdeck shuttles for each camera and a hub to duplicate all signals for the switcher. Or if the shuttle has an SDI loop than I could go from there to the ATEM. Maybe the BMD Decklink Quad 2 could work with the Vmix.
ATEM 1 M/E Production Studio 4K
ATEM 1 M/E Broadcast Panel
SmartScope Duo 4K
Smartview HD
Hyperdeck Studio 2
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Graham Walmsley

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Re: Recording multiple streams

PostSat Mar 10, 2018 11:21 am

BBSamir, it sounds like you are trying to do the same thing as me.

At the moment I am looking at:
  • Feed from camera into a HyperDeck Mini or HyperDeck Studio (depending on if you want to record onto SD Card or SSD)
  • Loop out of the HyperDeck into the switcher of your choice (i.e. ATEM Production Studio)
  • PGM out from the switcher to record the final show

That should give you high quality recordings of all the cameras and the final edit.

Graham
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Daniel Binder

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Re: Recording multiple streams

PostSat Mar 10, 2018 11:35 am

I've been following developments for multi-track-recordings for a while (as we need this all the time).
So far there are many unsatisfying options. I hope Blackmagic hears this and finally comes out with a multitrack recorder (Hyperdeck Quad anyone?)

This is what we have found so far:

Software: Several expensive options or hacky ones.
ScopeBox (Mac) being the budget friendly one. It works, we have used it with a BM Decklink Quad in a Thunderbolt enclosure with ok results.
Keep in mind that you need a really fast mac to record 4 streams. We have used a maxed out 2015 macbook pro (4x 2.8Ghz i7, 16gig RAM). We were able to record 4x 1080i50 in ProResLT. (ProRes422 or HQ resulted in occasional dropouts). Recording 4 streams in h.264 was definitely not an option.

Softron is about $1000 per stream. That'd be $4K for just the software (and you'd still need a beast of a PC/MAC and the capture card. Comes out north of $5K, even if you have the PC already - more expensive than hardware solutions. So that was a no go for us.

Hardware:
Convergent-Design Apollo: (We have one of those). Costs about $ 3k. Can record 4x3GSDI (or 2x4K) in all ProRes or DNXHD iterations.
Pros: Works nicely, had a few issues with sync at times, but nothing that could not be fixed in post). Allows use of cheap samsung EVO SSDs.
Cons: Needs own ingest tool to copy footage off the SSDs. Not a good rack-mountable/flightcase solution.

Aja Ki Pro Ultra Plus. Costs about $ 4K. Can record 4x3GSDI or 1x4K (considered it, but decided against it for SSD costs)
Pros: Great rack-mountable solution.
Cons: Only allows use of AJAs own SSDs (AJA PAKs), which are insanely expensive ($1500 for 1TB)

4x Blackmagic Hyperdeck Shuttle (about $1500) (we have two of those)
Pros: Cheapest hardware solution. Should be able to record Timecode RT188 but I would not know how to get the same timecode on 4 different camera signals (other than using the AUX outputs of the bigger ATEMS)
Cons: Can only record ProResHQ (large files). Can loop through, but needs BNC to microBNC adapters. No way I'd know of to trigger all of them simultaneously.

4x Hyperdeck Mini (total $ 2800) (we have one of those)
Pros: relatively budget friendly, rest see Hyperdeck Studio
Cons: only records on SD-cards

4x Hyperdeck Studio (total $ 4000) (we have two of those)
Pros: Would probably work best. Uses Cheap SSDs. No need for ingest, files can be used immediately. Timecode should be no problem. Could be triggered by a Skaarhoj device or a simple custom program using the SDK.
Cons: 4 of them make the system bulky and heavy (not really mobile-unit-friendly)

Our hacky solution we use as second backup sometimes:
Running 4 camera streams through a Blackmagic Multiview 4. Turn off all overlays and record the Multiview in 4K 25p in a Hyperdeck 12G (or a Videoassist 4K or any other 4K recorder if budget is really tight). Get's you a synced recording of 4 streams in a 2x2 matrix. In post, on a 1080 timeline, you can simply position the 4K recording according to the stream you need (works fine in FCPX, even as Multicam). Catch: Only 4K p25 possible (so you don't get 1080i50 streams, but 1080p25). Pros: Can loop through.

For the time being, our most used solution is the convergent design Apollo. It can't loop through, so you'd need a hub for that (or, if you use the TVS, with it's 4 HDMI inputs, you could use Micro SDI-HDMI converters, which can loop through the SDI signal).

Once again: BMD: I'm really hoping for Hyperdeck Quad. The 12G Hyperdeck obviously has more than enough processing power already to process the amount of data (4K in 50p = 8x1080 in 50i or 25p). All we need is 4 SDI inputs and the option to record it as 4x1080i50. How come Convergent Design can do this at a $3K price point and Blackmagic can't? ;)

Cheers,
Daniel

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