RS422

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Tom_Bassford

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RS422

PostWed Feb 08, 2017 9:00 am

Who uses RS422 deck control in their workflow currently?

The new hyperdeck has 422. But will anyone use it? Could we not of had LTC timecode and / or analog audio IO instead of a deck control protocol which I've not seen anyone use since DV / FireWire hit the market in the late 90s (ok that's a slight exaggeration, but you get the point!)

They've also put 422 on the new ATEM at the cost of no HDMI program output.

Please BMD if you are going with the new (too) small format for your gear consider actual users requirements when it comes to which connectors to have.
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Joris Robijn

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Re: RS422

PostWed Feb 08, 2017 11:50 am

I did last weekend. I tried to use it for replays. On itself the control works well (except continuous timecode would make it much more usable). Unfurtunately playing back slower or faster than 100% looks terrible with interlaced signals because BMD does not combine two fields of different frames to make the output frame. I will try 720p next time, should be much better.

I think these kind of connections can be very useful. They are widely in use in all kinds of controllers and software. Although I love RS422, exactly the same protocol could have been available over TCP/IP. Now there's a different protocol on TCP/IP with different functionality. I can live with the BVW protocol being available only over TCP/IP, then you can still use it from software or with hardware controllers via a serial-to-ethernet converter .
Last edited by Joris Robijn on Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sander Vreuls

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Re: RS422

PostWed Feb 08, 2017 2:13 pm

We stil use RS422 protocol quite a bit, though mostly Odetics instead of BVW75...

Would be great if BM could support one of the newer IP based deck controls, including loading clips etc..
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Ian Morrish

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Re: RS422

PostWed Feb 08, 2017 5:13 pm

I have found the slomo on 720p to be good and the RSS422 provides more granular control of the speed.
External controllers (available on e-bay nowadays as surplus) also allow quick jumping to mark points. Example...
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Tom_Bassford

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Re: RS422

PostWed Feb 08, 2017 5:27 pm

Yes I get the slomo points however this control could be via IP with an external converter for older controllers. This would've made space for an LTC input which would give the contiguous timecode allowing vastly improved functionality for slomo as well as the ability to ISO record cameras in an edit ready synchronised format.

Hopefully we will see a "pro" version of this deck which addresses these oversights.


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MambaFiber.com

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Re: RS422

PostWed Feb 08, 2017 5:53 pm

Do we think the HyperDeck Mini will at least take timecode embedded on its input signal? And i mean sdi timecode, not an embebbed audio channel with LTC...
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Jack Fairley

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Re: RS422

PostWed Feb 08, 2017 11:20 pm

The 12G studio model does, hopefully they would continue that.
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Dave Del Vecchio

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Re: RS422

PostThu Feb 09, 2017 1:14 am

According to the manual, all of the HyperDeck Studio models, including the HyperDeck Studio Mini support embedded timecode (SMPTE RP 188) on the SDI signal. The HyperDeck Studio Mini also supports record triggering via timecode run (as do the other HyperDeck models).

One other interesting thing I noticed from the manual, is that on page 14 there is a screenshot of the Record menu for the HyperDeck Studio Mini that shows a new menu item Audio Channels (which is set to 4 channels in the screenshot). Given that the tech specs for the HyperDeck Studio Mini say it can record up to 16 channels of embedded audio, I think this may mean that it is possible to set how many channels to actually record on the HyperDeck Studio Mini.

This is something that hasn't been possible to date with the other HyperDeck Studio models (which always recorded 16 channels of audio).
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Jack Fairley

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Re: RS422

PostThu Feb 09, 2017 2:33 am

I really hope you are right, and there will be an update that allows disabling the extraneous channels.
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Joris Robijn

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Re: RS422

PostSun Mar 05, 2017 10:17 am

For the contiguous time it would for many cases even suffice to use the internal clock, and lock the frequency of the internal clock to the ref input. Then the recordings accross multiple drives would have a fixed offset as long as they were kept powered on and kept synchronised. Technically the only thing that needs to be done is that at power-on the RTC clock would need to be copied to the internal clock, and that the clock gets incremented by the ref input. The RTC clock does need to be updated.

Maybe this would finally allow us to select the clock time as timecode with the hyperdecks... I really miss this feature. (Next to playback while recording of course... :) )
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Howard Roll

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Re: RS422

PostSun Mar 05, 2017 10:30 pm

It doesn't work that way unfortunately. Your record decks are going to record whatever source they get. If it's 29.94 for one deck and 29.99 for another that's the way it is. I don't even genlock record decks, there's really not any point unless you need them for playback. If your sources are all genlocked then there should be no drift and you can just use time of day and offset as you said.

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kencampbell

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Re: RS422

PostSun Mar 05, 2017 11:22 pm

... I think this may mean that it is possible to set how many channels to actually record on the HyperDeck Studio Mini.


I can confirm that this is the case. I made a couple ProResHQ recordings last week using the Mini; one configured for 2 audio channels, the other configured for 4 audio channels. Back on the Mac, each recording had a single audio stream containing the correct number of audio channels, respectively.

Also verified, the Mini plays back externally authored content with only 2 channels of audio (no need to pad it out to 16 channels, as I've read one has to do with the other Hyperdeck Studio models).

For playing back 4 or 8 channels of audio (ie. using the BMD SDI-to-Audio mini converter), it works equally well whether all the audio channels are in a single stream, or if it's one audio channel per stream.

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Ken
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Xtreemtec

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Re: RS422

PostTue Mar 07, 2017 11:59 am

Wow sweet!! +3 to get this audio feature also on the bigger hyperdecks.. that is quite usefull!!

Also at the main page of the menu put a line that shows current loaded firmware!! That would Be very usefull on Every BMD device like videomixers teranex mini's recorders.. Every machine capable of Having a lcd or frontpanel on it.

Oh sorry Tom for hi-jacking your topic ;)
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
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Joris Robijn

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Re: RS422

PostTue Feb 06, 2018 1:17 pm

From 1 to 4 february I did the live production on a diving competition. I used two hyperdecks as simple replay recorders. I had some trouble with slow responses to stop commands (up to 6 seconds), but generally it worked well. I used 720p to prevent the hyperdeck interlacing problems.

I really wished the decks could play back while continuing their recording. Actually I spoke with a BMD engineer at the IBC last year, and we talked a bit about the FPGA programming in the hyperdecks (I have programmed FPGA's in the past as well...) He expects it's technically possible to playback and record in the same file at the same time, with the current FPGA framework of the hyperdeck... Thumbs up!!! This single-file limitation I would not consider a problem at all, for instant replay you don't need to play back an other file at the same time. Another useful application would be to delay video a number of seconds.

This video is an example of what we created.
Image
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MambaFiber.com

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Re: RS422

PostTue Feb 06, 2018 3:21 pm

great coverage Joris!

what controller are you using for your hyperdecks?

are you interfacing the scoring info into your CG, or just entering manually?
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Joris Robijn

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Re: RS422

PostTue Feb 06, 2018 7:50 pm

Hehe, well I don't think anyone can type fast enough to get all that data in the system in time... Fortunately it's all automatic, and comes from files generated by the judge system, and the scores are usually ready in a few seconds after the dive. Actually I can run it in autopilot mode and put it on the video of a fixed (pan-tilt) camera when there is a less interesting competition going on.

I am using my own control software, that I've developed over the years. It controls the switcher, router, various pan-tilt cameras, a tally switch box and various replay recorders (many BVW-75 compatible, some with extensions such as the Grass Valley AMP protocol).
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Xtreemtec

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Re: RS422

PostWed Feb 07, 2018 3:36 pm

The big problem with the hyperdecks is bus speed to the SSD's..
While users have issues with dropped frames while only writing to the SSD..
How would you even run Write and read of another segment at the same time from the same disk... As you obviously want the hyperdeck keep recording while doing a playback (in slomo) of a different part of the file..

A possible way would be that if the hyperdeck would be able to record to Both drives.. (like the ursa can do record to both mediums together as redundancy)
You could stop Drive slot B and reverse for playback while Slot A keeps recording.
Still a big IF.. Because i don't know if the FPGA (Spartan 7 for the older hyperdecks and Kintex or Virtex series for the 12G models) have enough power to do the encoding and writing + Reading and decoding to video together.. Without getting to hot and fail or drop frames.

Ofcoarse i would do a big applaud when BMD would come with a true slomo replay function. But at this moment in time. This is the limitation that software and maybe hardware trows at you...
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
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Joris Robijn

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Re: RS422

PostWed Feb 07, 2018 3:55 pm

Xtreemtec wrote:The big problem with the hyperdecks is bus speed to the SSD's..
Still a big IF.. Because i don't know if the FPGA (Spartan 7 for the older hyperdecks and Kintex or Virtex series for the 12G models) have enough power to do the encoding and writing + Reading and decoding to video together.. Without getting to hot and fail or drop frames.

If they can write OR read 4k, they can also read AND write HD at the same time, is my blunt statement ;)

Ofcoarse i would do a big applaud when BMD would come with a true slomo replay function. But at this moment in time. This is the limitation that software and maybe hardware trows at you...

Let's hope they finally see the market potential. I will buy extra decks, for sure.
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Xtreemtec

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Re: RS422

PostWed Feb 07, 2018 4:03 pm

Joris Robijn wrote:If they can write OR read 4k, they can also read AND write HD at the same time, is my blunt statement ;)

Very true.. But you know how users are.... :lol: If they have a 4K recorder they won't be satisfied with a HD playback function.. They want 4K.. ;)

So even if they would implement HD Playback free of charge in a update for the Hyperdeck 4K..
Users will start about 4K playback and HD replay on all other hyperdecks.. :lol: ;) It is in our nature to ask for more and more..

What do you think Sony would say if i go to them and say i want replay on your recorder.. They would simply say not possible with this recorder. Buy something else.!!
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
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Joris Robijn

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Re: RS422

PostWed Feb 07, 2018 4:15 pm

Don't think about what cannot be done, think about what can be done!
I'm convinced the 4k (12G) recorders can do it for HD (that's 1G5), and probably even for 1080p50 (that's 3G). Maybe the 3G recorder can even do it for HD, as it would need the same bandwidth. Ow, I'm mouthwatering if I think about the possibilities of doing this :o
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Howard Roll

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Re: RS422

PostWed Feb 07, 2018 5:02 pm

I believe the current limitation is more how of the files are written. QT or DNX files have to be closed out. Look at how easily the file can be corrupted just from losing signal. Essentially what you want is something akin to a raw recorder where video is captured as a series of discrete frames so every frame is it's own closed file and can be accessed while recording.
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Joris Robijn

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Re: RS422

PostWed Feb 07, 2018 6:07 pm

They have to be closed to be able to access the data as files. But the latest unwritten data of the file currently being used is still in memory. That's why doing instant replay in the same this file is much easier to implement. Besides, the limitation you give can also be overcome, other brands also do it. However it would take much more effort (if not impossible because of fpga program size), while I consider replay in the same file already an enormous added value.
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Howard Roll

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Re: RS422

PostWed Feb 07, 2018 6:48 pm

The only portion still in memory is the buffer which could be maybe a few frames worth of data at most.
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Joris Robijn

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Re: RS422

PostThu Feb 08, 2018 2:21 pm

Don't forget that additionally there's a lot of metadata that will be written elsewhere in the file. That's the reason why you can't use a file when it's not correctly closed. Depending on the format these could also be indexes with timestamps, to be able to seek quicker. And those are needed for replay (you need to seek).
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Xtreemtec

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Re: RS422

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 8:18 pm

Vmix seems to close the file as soon as you put a out marker. Continues recording a new file so recording continues.. And then goes back the -5 -10 -20 seconds from that OUT marker.. And starts playing this back.. Which seems a OKE way to do this..

But this is a Computer system and you have to set a lower res for the recording streams when you do Replay.. They are not 422 HQ per channel ;)

Which the Hyperdecks are not able to do a lower res compression.. And i doubt if the FPGA is able to handle 422 HQ ingest and write will read and playout in slomo..
If i remember correctly the older hyperdecks have a Spartan7 FPGA onboard to handle the video and recording / compression..
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV, ATEM TVS HD, 1M/E 4K, 2M/E Broadcast Studio 4K, Hyperdeck Studio Mini, SONY FS7 4K, Ursa Broadcast 4K

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