BMD Television Studio HD

why don't you go and buy ATOMOS, Roland or whoever's gear then?

You simply don't seem to understand that the delay caused by the framesyncs is not consistent, it depends on the incoming video signal timing which is inconsistent in systems which do not have genlock. An audio delay cannot fully correct the lipsync in free running systems because the offset changes from source to source.

You can delay the audio all you like, but it still will not be in sync in a multicamera system which is not genlocked. That's just physics.

There are loads of things which the ATEM doesn't currently do. I'd much rather they concentrate on VIDEO functionality which can be done properly rather than adding further audio features which cannot be done properly.

Evan, if you are recording the output for the ATEM, and not live streaming or "broadcasting" a live feed, then the recorder is a great p,ace to add audio delay to match it to thenatem's video program out. I Do this with a Video Devices (Sound Devices) Pix 220, which can also Up/Down Scale the video signal. However, I use the audio delay when recording from a single camera, or two matched sync'd cameras, and have the audio feed directly to the Pix 220. The Pix delays the audio coming from the built in audio mixer before sending it to the video processor for embedding the delayed audio into the video stream to record.

But, when using something like a ATEM, I think taking the audio delay from the audio mixer out, before it is imputed to the ATEM is a better way to go, and is the normal way to do this. DataVideo also makes a good audio delay unit.
Cheers

""BMD add an audio delay option to ATEM range help users with lip-sync on free-running cameras, that can't sync the audio to the pictures". How is that good for BMD??"

If you use the same model cameras, which many people do, they are all in sync with each other, even without gen lock, and a delay on the external audio input would solve the sync issue.

No they really are not...

Without Gen-lock, free running cameras will see real-time events up to 2 frames apart. There is simply no way to sync a real-time audio feed up to a mix of those cameras. Even with ISO recordings of each camera, you can't do it in post, you just can't do it. Not a matter of opinion, a simple basic fact.

And hence why it seems your argument is being so dismissively rebuked. The hack you suggest doesn't solve the problem you are reporting, at best it minimizes it, and reduces the number people who can spot the problem: "a bit", and therefore why it's unlikely to think BMD would offer a solution:

"Hey guys, here is a solution that nearly fixes that issue you've all been talking about".

Not very appealing....

Will Canon HF G20 cameras work with the new studio HD? Also, does anyone have experience using the HDMI to SDI mini converter with these cameras to the SDI inputs of the TVS or Studio HD? My plans have basically been thrown in the air after I finally did some more research into frame rates. I had originally planned to used a few Canon Vixia HF R60 cameras with the micro converters as mobile cameras for my school, but it looks as if those cameras won't work correctly unless other have experience with those as well.

What John has said pretty much covers it.

The overlap between people using consumer cameras but having an external audio mixer is tiny.

If your cameras have five frames of delay then they are not fit for purpose, I've always used Sonys which don't have significant delay on their SDI outs.

However there is already a very simple solution to fix sync on your cameras. You simply embed the audio via the cameras audio input. Thus the camera will delay the sound to match its picture and your lipsync will be as good as it ever can be without genlock.

The ATEM should not have delay. It doesn't need it. The only purpose in providing delay is as a hack to fix deficiencies in 3rd party equipment / poor system design.

You can buy a lip sync correction audio delay for £60 new. If you need to use the external audio input and you don't have a mixer which can give you a delay then £60 on a little box fixes it.

Out of interest Tom, where/what is the £60 "lip sync correction audio delay" solution?
Cheers

This one is the cheapest method, but it's unbalanced -10 level obviously.

http://www.neobits.com/av_toolbox_tv1_a ... oCEX_w_wcB

"And hence why it seems your argument is being so dismissively rebuked. The hack you suggest doesn't solve the problem you are reporting, at best it minimizes it, and reduces the number people who can spot the problem: "a bit", and therefore why it's unlikely to think BMD would offer a solution:"

I'd say the majority of TVS users are using this "hack". People sell bundles with the Behringer delay unit, there's no mystery you need it to get the external audio in "close enough" sync. It brings it from being way out of sync (5-6 frames because of camera delays) to being within tolerance (1-2 frames). It's the best you can do without gen lock cameras. Nobody buying a $900 switcher is going to spend the money for a gen lockable camera, it's just not going to happen. Why don't I use the external inputs on the ATOMOS, same reason I don't use a camera input, unbalanced 1/8" non-pro inputs.

All this being said, YOU ARE ALL RIGHT about one thing, BlackMagic isn't going to add it, so I'll drop this. I'm glad you guys live in a world of pro cameras with gen lock, but the rest of us don't, and our hacks work fine to get the results we need at the budgets we have to work with.

Thanks for playing.

Out of interest Tom, where/what is the £60 "lip sync correction audio delay" solution?
Cheers

https://www.amazon.co.uk/CYP-Adjustable ... B004VFKQ6S

Yes it's only unbalanced..

Better affordable (sub £500) solutions include the Behringer DEQ2496, Datavideo AD100, Kramer VA-256xl

Then things step up a notch into broadcast products from the likes of Sonifex, Bel and the like with boxes around £1000

For most small studios it's probably better to invest in a decent digital sound desk, these are falling in price day by day with the Behringer X32 series pushing prices down across the board. The secondhand market is full of great options too, you can pickup a used Yamaha 01v for less than £300.

Lipsync delay is really only a small part of a much bigger problem with audio quality for streaming productions. Ideally you need to have access to EQ, Compression, Limiting and Delay to get acceptable sound. This makes a decent audio desk a prerequisite for creating engaging content. It's been frequently observed that people will happily watch poor quality video with good sound, yet they quickly turn off when sound quality is poor even if the video quality is excellent. Live streaming is especially challenging as people attempt to maximise peak volume so as their stream doesn't sound quiet to viewers. Doing this without clipping the audio requires good equipment and skilled operators.

(I could point to a recent example of a large organisation getting this wrong and making a product announcement video with constant clipping.. )

Thanks for playing.

Love you too Tom.

Tom, you nailed the best reason for top notch audio quality. At the Cable TV station I worked at, their outgoing audio was bad, levels all over the place level wise, not always in sync with the video, and the viewers complained more about this, than the fact we were still streaming 4:3 SD video signals.

Their biggest issue was mixing balanced and unbalanced audio connections, no limiter, no compressor (they had one, it was not hooked up). Pulled meters of unbalanced audio cable and composite video cables being used for long runs from control room to cable head equipment room. Replaced all with SDI video runs and balanced audio cables, connections (this was a 100-foot run).

I managed to clean up the audio, get the levels equalized out, sync back, and the viewers were happier.

Good Audio is more important than many new shooters realize. The new BM Web Presenter looks great, but reports are coming in, the audio is problematic. If this is so, audio issues will kill this box (at least for me it will).
Cheers

Out of interest Tom, where/what is the £60 "lip sync correction audio delay" solution?
Cheers

https://www.amazon.co.uk/CYP-Adjustable ... B004VFKQ6S

you can also get this, which is fully balanced, each handles one channel

https://www.thomann.de/gb/behringer_shark_fbq100.htm

User review of 3 weeks on the road with the ATEM TVS HD:

The 4 SDI outputs aren't iso outputs. They are main program outputs with the option for a mix minus on the audio track(s). I haven't exactly figured out the mix minus part yet, but I suppose I will when I need it.
Had hoped that these were actually passthrough of the input SDI's as that would help with ISO recording. I guess I will still be bringing my 40x40 compact videohub to gigs and continue to route cameras through it for iso mixes - etc prior to their signal hitting the mixer.

Analog inputs are great! - until a fool electrician blows the circuit the unit is on and they self destruct. Now I get only static on my analog ins. I am wishing I still had the option of AES input. Suppose I can just use an empty HDMi or SDI to route embedded signal through but that is a pain.

Overall I love it. The aux is great! It is much easier to use than using a router control mid show to send signals where you want them.

Preview screen on the front great! Love the audio meters on the preview screen and on the multiview.

Physical buttons are wonderful too!

Overall grade A for the price!

Well they advertised everywhere that these were main outputs.. So i don't know where you had the info from that it where loop troughs..

The mix minus option is only if you use intercom.. These outputs are ment to output directly to the studio cams or ursa mini's With mix minus you can mix / cut out the voice of that camera men's line in the talkback so he doesn't here himself echoing in his own ears.. Or at least turn his voice down on his own headset..

These features are only for when you wire a couple of studio cams to it by SDI cable..

That's not completely the case. Mixminus is very useful for voip / Skype sources.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ahh offcourse.. I don't deal a lot with skype related sources.. But i can see the use for that indeed..

Curious about how BM is handling the A/D conversion of the 2 ch balanced analog line-ins and if the audio is being converted first to 48K 24-bit standard broadcast resolution and/or how exactly this is being handled using external audio sources and bypassing the in-camera audio coming into the ATEM from the cameras. Say if you were going to use the Web Presenter daisy chained after the ATEM TVS HD and would be taking a feed from a program out on SDI from the ATEM TVS HD, I'm assuming the onboard internal Terenex encoding done in the WP is going to convert the now 48K/24 digitized audio from the ATEM TVS HD to AAC converted audio for the live stream? What standard is being used for the Terenex encoding? Since they are keeping the data rates low for streaming, I would think they are dumbing down the audio to AAC, correct? Not much audio spec info to be found anywhere on BM's site unfortunately. Not to belabor all of the sync issues which would be another headache entirely, I'm just concerned about how the audio is being handled from boxes to stream.

TIA

I was running into Video / Audio sync when I had the audio go directly via XLR. This was my workaround:

Same issue. Big thanks to Evan for raising the regular end user perspective as honestly and persistently as you have.

I've spent countless hours and a significant amount of $$$ to compensate for the lack of a basic audio delay function that the ATEM TV HD could easily have implemented. It's a huge headache.

Sure for streaming I can use software solutions, but for WebPresenter to WebCam for other use cases I'm stuck investing countless hours researching options. It's unfortunate I couldn't have invested those dollars into more blackmagic gear to extend my rig rather than adding additional otherwise unnecessary effects/EQ devices or costly audio delay lines.