Hyperdeck Mini Card size?

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LeVan Moxley

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Hyperdeck Mini Card size?

PostTue Feb 21, 2017 5:31 am

What's the largest SD card that the Hyperdeck Mini can use?

Thanks
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Tony Rivera

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Re: Hyperdeck Mini Card size?

PostThu Feb 23, 2017 12:06 am

The HyperDeck Studio Mini has a list on the support page as to which SD cards to use. This is also available in the manual.
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LeVan Moxley

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Re: Hyperdeck Mini Card size?

PostThu Feb 23, 2017 5:51 am

Thanks Tony. I have seen the recommendations on the support page. I've also seen the images of the Mini and there are 128g cards being shown. There are currently 256g and 512g cards available. I was curious if any of these larger cards would work in the Mini.
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Tony Rivera

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Re: Hyperdeck Mini Card size?

PostThu Feb 23, 2017 5:27 pm

This is something we're looking into but the marketing has spotted the error and will be addressing this. YMMV with use of any other cards not on the list at this point.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Hyperdeck Mini Card size?

PostThu Feb 23, 2017 6:17 pm

So the Mini UHS 2 SD card slots. That explains the SD UHS1 card limitations.
LeVan you can use a Sandisk Extreme PRO (128/64/32 GB) SD UHS II SD cards in a 128GB size.
They cost a little more, but should give better results and can record both HD and UHD.
Cheers
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Howard Roll

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Re: Hyperdeck Mini Card size?

PostThu Feb 23, 2017 6:56 pm

Msata is the future for affordable compact storage, think about it, tell your friends.
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Dave Del Vecchio

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Re: Hyperdeck Mini Card size?

PostThu Feb 23, 2017 11:42 pm

Howard Roll wrote:Msata is the future for affordable compact storage, think about it, tell your friends.

I like mSATA too, but it seems like mSATA is gradually being phased out in favor of the newer M.2 form factor:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M.2

So while a lot of the current generation of compact SSDs are mSATA, I don't think we will see many of the next generation of SSDs released in this form factor as the manufacturers move to M.2.

For example, the Samsung 850 EVO drives are available in either mSATA or M.2 format, but the newer Samsung 950 PRO, 960 EVO, and 960 PRO drives are only available in the M.2 form factor.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Hyperdeck Mini Card size?

PostFri Feb 24, 2017 3:44 am

Very interesting Dave, thanks for posting this. The Video Devices PixE uses the same EVO mSata cards, in a USB connector enclosure formfactor. These work very nicely for recording up to full 4.4.4 4K video, while, the SD UHS 2 cards are struggling to to keep up with UHD video data rates. The only real change I see here is the size formfactor, since they both use PCIe interface. Perhaps Video Devices can upgrade their card holder to use the newer cards.

Sony has also announced a new SD UHS 2 card SF-G Series, with a claimed write Speed of 299 Mbps, but they will only be available in 32.64 and 128 GB size cards, launching his Spring.
Cheers
Last edited by Denny Smith on Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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David Hutchinson

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Re: Hyperdeck Mini Card size?

PostSat Feb 25, 2017 5:24 pm

LeVan
I am using lexar professional X1000 256gb for hd recording on the hyper deck mini. I don't have a 512gb card to try.
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David_Anderson

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Re: Hyperdeck Mini Card size?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 4:08 am

Tony Rivera wrote:This is something we're looking into but the marketing has spotted the error and will be addressing this. YMMV with use of any other cards not on the list at this point.


Tony,

Any updates to this? We're getting ready to purchase some Mini's but we need bigger cards. It looks like Sandisk has some 512GB Extreme cards that seem to be the same spec as the smaller ones you posted. We're recording in 1080i.

Best,

David
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Tony Rivera

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Re: Hyperdeck Mini Card size?

PostTue Apr 25, 2017 10:27 pm

I'm not aware of which cards are being tested by the engineering team at this time but with the ramp up to NAB, there may have been some backlog on this. I'd keep an eye out within the next few weeks after the teams get back to their respective offices for some additional information.
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David_Anderson

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Re: Hyperdeck Mini Card size?

PostWed Apr 26, 2017 12:52 am

I guess what doesn't make sense to me is why a larger version of the same card wouldn't work?

https://www.sandisk.com/home/memory-car ... o-sd-uhs-i

I guess we need to know what standards the Hyperdeck Mini uses. The 32, 64, 128 and 256GB card all list supporting C10, U3, V30. The 512 only supports C10 and U3. Is there any way for you to ask if V30 is a requirement for cards? I'm reasonably confident that anything between 32-256 will work but not sure on the 512.

With the amount of data that these files take, I'd prefer to have larger capacity cards and have to swap them less often. We often stream for 12 continuous hours and want to record everything.

Thanks!

David



Tony Rivera wrote:I'm not aware of which cards are being tested by the engineering team at this time but with the ramp up to NAB, there may have been some backlog on this. I'd keep an eye out within the next few weeks after the teams get back to their respective offices for some additional information.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Hyperdeck Mini Card size?

PostWed Apr 26, 2017 1:29 am

Those are UHS1 cards you linked to. The Hyperdeck Mini has a UHS2 SD card interface, which only works at high data rates with a few UHS1 cards, which is limited to the smaller GB cards, 64/32GB. To get 128GB you need to move up,to the UHS2 SD cards. Larger GB size cards should be coming soon. The VA4K went through the same restrictions.
Cheers
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David_Anderson

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Re: Hyperdeck Mini Card size?

PostWed Apr 26, 2017 3:34 am

Denny,

Thanks for the reply. The link I posted was to UHS1 cars ranging from 32-256GB with the exact same specs. Why wouldn't a larger version of the 32GB card work? The Sandisk Extreme Pro UHS1 cards that BM says will work in 32-64GB now come all the way up to 512GB.

Best,

David

Denny Smith wrote:Those are UHS1 cards you linked to. The Hyperdeck Mini has a UHS2 SD card interface, which only works at high data rates with a few UHS1 cards, which is limited to the smaller GB cards, 64/32GB. To get 128GB you need to move up,to the UHS2 SD cards. Larger GB size cards should be coming soon. The VA4K went through the same restrictions.
Cheers
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Denny Smith

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Re: Hyperdeck Mini Card size?

PostWed Apr 26, 2017 4:32 am

It has to do with how a UHS2 interface sees/connects the UHS 1 SD cards, all SD cards with the same specs, are not really equal. UHS1 interface has one row of connecting pins, UHS 2 has two rows of pins, like a One lane road compared to a two lane road, the UHS2 cards get their Speed from sending data down two parallel signal paths, which have a slower max speed per side, whereas UHS1 has only,one lane, so to get the same traffic down it p, the speed is increased in the one lane. When you use a UHS 1 card in a UHS 2 I Bus, only one row of pins is used, and thus the speed of data flow is slower than it would be in a UHS 1 Bus. This is somewhat simplified explaination, but a UHS 1 card in a UHS 2 Bus runs at a slower read/write Speed than it would in a UHS1 Bus. The larger the MB the card is, the slower it runs.
Cheers.
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David_Anderson

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Re: Hyperdeck Mini Card size?

PostWed Apr 26, 2017 3:03 pm

I appreciate the explanation but I can't wrap my head around it. I've been in the computer/IT industry for almost 30 years and your explanation doesn't make complete sense. The explanation of UHS1/UHS2 is great! I can't for the life of me think why more storage capacity would have any effect on speed. If you have a 1 lane highway that can pass 100 cars a minute and a 3200 capacity parking lot, it would take 32 minutes to fill that parking lot.

If I have the same 1 lane highway that passes 100 cars a minute and I have a 51200 capacity parking lot, it would take 512 minutes to fill the parking lot.

If Sandisk says the write speed on the 32GB and 512GB are the same then it's safe to assume that we wouldn't have a bigger traffic backup on the 512GB card.

I do understand variances between manufacturers and that all specs aren't the same but in this case we're talking a single manufacturer with varying card sizes that share identical specs.

I've ordered a deck and a 512GB card to test. I'll share my results as soon as possible. Thanks for the input.

Best,

David

Denny Smith wrote:It has to do with how a UHS2 interface sees/connects the UHS 1 SD cards, all SD cards with the same specs, are not really equal. UHS1 interface has one row of connecting pins, UHS 2 has two rows of pins, like a One lane road compared to a two lane road, the UHS2 cards get their Speed from sending data down two parallel signal paths, which have a slower max speed per side, whereas UHS1 has only,one lane, so to get the same traffic down it p, the speed is increased in the one lane. When you use a UHS 1 card in a UHS 2 I Bus, only one row of pins is used, and thus the speed of data flow is slower than it would be in a UHS 1 Bus. This is somewhat simplified explaination, but a UHS 1 card in a UHS 2 Bus runs at a slower read/write Speed than it would in a UHS1 Bus. The larger the MB the card is, the slower it runs.
Cheers.
David Anderson
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Denny Smith

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Re: Hyperdeck Mini Card size?

PostWed Apr 26, 2017 7:00 pm

Good luck David, I do not totally understand the difference either, except for the Bus differences. I do know, the UHS1 card is like a 95mph single lane road, while UHS 2 is a 60mph two lane road. The UHS card needs the 95mph speed to get the video data through, and putting it on only half (one lane) of the 60mph road is not going to allow as much data through, it fills up quicker, and then slows down even more. The final data transfer rate is only gong to be as fast as the slowest part of the chain, and the UHS2 buss is the slower bit, when used with UHS1 cards, they can not work at full speed. This is why I do not use UHS2 recorders. I got the PixE which uses mSata cards, that are faster and come I larger GB sizes than UHS2 SD cards. Yes it is larger, but still much smaller than a SSD.

It is more to do with how the UHS2 bus deals with the UHS1 cards (UHS1 cards only use one row of pins, and thus only 1/2 the buss, which in therory it should work, but it seems in practice that it is not totally backwards compatible with UHS1 cards, especially the larger GB cards, which are made differently to get the heigher GB capacity. BM is saying that they do not work at all, but that they do not works 100-percent reliably. When the Pocket camera came out, I had a 32GB SanDisk Pro SD card that would not record on the Pocket camera, where the same card in a 64GB configuration did work. Go figure that one out? :mrgreen:
Cheers
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Dave Del Vecchio

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Re: Hyperdeck Mini Card size?

PostWed Apr 26, 2017 8:41 pm

The different SD card bus speeds are described here:
https://www.sdcard.org/developers/overview/bus_speed/

Note that for UHS-I there are actually multiple different bus speed modes including SDR50 (50 MB/s) and SDR104 (104 MB/s). For UHS-II the bus speed is 156MB/s Full Duplex (read/write) or 312MB/s Half Duplex (read or write only).

The bus speed is just the maximum theoretical speed data could be transferred over the interface between the card and device. In most cases the read and write speed of the memory on the card is significantly lower than the bus speed. And the memory in most cards has write speeds lower than the read speed.

Assuming the device reading or writing to the SD card supports SDR104 for UHS-I then it should be able to read and write to cards that support SDR104 at the maximum speed the card supports. For example, some of the early SanDisk UHS-II cards supported 312MB/s transfer speeds over the UHS-II bus, but only supported SDR50 over the UHS-I bus. So if these cards were inserted in a UHS-I card reader/writer, they would max out at 50 MB/s. More on that here:
http://www.cameramemoryspeed.com/review ... mory-card/

The same is not true for Transcend UHS-II cards as these cards support SDR104 over UHS-I and max out at just below 104 MB/s when inserted in a UHS-I card reader:
http://www.cameramemoryspeed.com/review ... mory-card/

I'm not aware of situations where UHS-I cards that support SDR104 operate slower in UHS-II card readers/writers. My understanding is that this would only be the case if the card reader/writer in the device did not support SDR104 for UHS-I and only supported SDR50. But I believe most (if not all) UHS-II card readers support SDR104.

Although the specs for the HyperDeck Mini's SD card interface are not given, this information is provided for the Blackmagic Video Assist 4K which does support SDR104. It would surprise me if the HyperDeck Mini did not support SD104 for UHS-I.

Because consider that the bitrate for ProRes 422 HQ at 1080p60 (the maximum HD recording mode for the HyperDeck Mini) is 440 Mb/s or 55 MB/s. This is more than the maximum bus speed for SDR50 (50 MB/s), which means that no UHS-I cards would be usable for HD recording in this mode. But there are some approved UHS-I cards for HD recording.

If you consider that the bitrate for ProRes 422 HQ at 2160p30 (the maximum Ultra HD recording mode) is 884 Mb/s or 110.5 MB/s, it makes sense that UHD recording requires UHS-II cards since the maximum bus speed of UHS-I is 104 MB/s. In principle, some of the lower ProRes levels like ProRes 422 LT at 2160p30 (51.25 MB/s) should be possible using UHS-I cards since this is within the SDR104 bus spec.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Hyperdeck Mini Card size?

PostThu Apr 27, 2017 1:24 am

Thanks Dave, for the excellent technical explanation. 8-)
Cheers
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David_Anderson

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Re: Hyperdeck Mini Card size?

PostThu Apr 27, 2017 2:15 am

Thanks Dave for the information. I have the Hyperdeck Mini, a 64GB approved Sandisk card and a 512GB version of the same card on the way and will be here Friday. I plan to record continuously and fill both cards and will get back with the results.
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Ethan Harris

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Re: Hyperdeck Mini Card size?

PostThu Apr 27, 2017 2:44 pm

I have tried the Lexar Professional 2000x cards recommended by BMD, but the 128GB size instead of the smaller 64GB card listed in BMDs manual.

I am seeing horizontal banding artifacts in the recording (ProResHQ) when recording 1080ix59.94 from an ATEM 1M/E Production Studio 4K. The banding appears in areas of frames where there is horizontal motion of a subject. I'm working with BMD Tech Support to see if they can diagnose and resolve the problem. I would not think there there would be timing differences between various SD card sizes in the Lexar Professional 2000X product line, so I suspect it's not the card and is likely a problem in the Studio Mini. But heed what BMD says - the larger card sizes are not supported (as yet).
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Re: Hyperdeck Mini Card size?

PostSat Apr 29, 2017 5:46 pm

I have seen these on my Hyperdeck Studio 2 as well. Switching to 1080p fixed this. Have you tried that? Have you been able to record on smaller cards without the artifacts?

Best,

David

Ethan Harris wrote:I have tried the Lexar Professional 2000x cards recommended by BMD, but the 128GB size instead of the smaller 64GB card listed in BMDs manual.

I am seeing horizontal banding artifacts in the recording (ProResHQ) when recording 1080ix59.94 from an ATEM 1M/E Production Studio 4K. The banding appears in areas of frames where there is horizontal motion of a subject. I'm working with BMD Tech Support to see if they can diagnose and resolve the problem. I would not think there there would be timing differences between various SD card sizes in the Lexar Professional 2000X product line, so I suspect it's not the card and is likely a problem in the Studio Mini. But heed what BMD says - the larger card sizes are not supported (as yet).
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David Hutchinson

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Re: Hyperdeck Mini Card size?

PostTue May 02, 2017 3:57 pm

Denny Smith wrote:Sony has also announced a new SD UHS 2 card SF-G Series, with a claimed write Speed of 299 Mbps, but they will only be available in 32.64 and 128 GB size cards, launching his Spring.
Cheers


and that card is £369 (US$476) for 128GB here in the UK. I think the better form factor is the SSD and the full size Hyperdeck. I'm stuggling to know what to do with my Mini.
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Ethan Harris

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Re: Hyperdeck Mini Card size?

PostTue May 02, 2017 7:43 pm

Good news. It appears the jagged imagery problem is not with the Hyperdeck Studio Mini or the recordings. The Lexar Professional 2000x 128 GB cards appear work perfectly at the higher recording speeds demanded by the HQ codecs, even though the 128GB card size is not listed in the Hyperdeck documentation.

All of our cameras, ATEMs and projection systems operate at 1080i59.94. The computer hardware and HDMI monitors on which we edit assume a 1080p signal. So interlacing the is culprit. The data recorded on the SD cards is interlaced, and has to be deinterlaced for proper editing, and the jagged banding goes away.

But the Hyperdeck Studi Mini itself appears to be working they way it should with the larger 128GB SD card.
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Scott Smith

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Re: Hyperdeck Mini Card size?

PostWed May 03, 2017 8:16 pm

David Anderson, any update on the result from the 512GB card???
Scott R Smith
BMD Stuff I use: ATEM 2-M/E, 4 x ATEM PS 4K, Broadcast Videohub, 6 Hyperdeck Pros, 4 Hyperdeck Shuttles, Multidock, Smartscope Duo, Smartview, Intensity Extreme, Decklink Studio, and lots of Miniconverters and Open Gear Converters.
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Re: Hyperdeck Mini Card size?

PostMon May 08, 2017 9:48 pm

The results are in. The Sandisk Extreme Pro 512GB UHS1 card recorded just fine! We recorded in Prores 422 and Prores 422HQ. I have verified the video is in tact with no issues. Our input was 1080i 59.94.

I did note 2 things:

When recording Prores 422HQ the files were split into 2 files - the first file was 396GB and the second filled the card. When looking at the end of file #1 and the beginning of file #2 it was the exact moment in time. We didn't intervene or start/stop the recording

When recording Prores 422 the files were again split into 2 files - the first file was 265GB and the second filled the card up. Again the same as above applies - it was the exact moment in time from file #1 to file #2. No intervention again.

When recording Prores 422 to a 64GB card it was a single file.

I hope BM will enlighten us as to what causes this however it's not a big concern to me because as long as the data is there I'm good to go.

I hope this information is of value to others. I ordered more 512GB cards and another Hyperdeck Mini!

Best,

David

Scott Smith wrote:David Anderson, any update on the result from the 512GB card???
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Wim Grandia

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Re: Hyperdeck Mini Card size?

PostWed Sep 13, 2017 4:57 pm

Hi David,

Very interesting indeed! I've just bought two Hyperdecks Mini and was under the impression that i could record around 50-55 minutes on a 64GB card while recording with the codec DNxHD 145 mxf. But unfortunately my 65Gb card is full after 24 minutes... :( So i also want to switch to at least an 128Gb card. Good to now that it should work!

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