MiniTeranex SDI to Optical and vice versa

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Scott Smith

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MiniTeranex SDI to Optical and vice versa

PostMon Mar 20, 2017 3:26 pm

So the box described in the title doesn't exist. They don't have a Mini-Teranex "SDI to Optical" or an "Optical to SDI."

But they do have several boxes of various types that have both Optical and SDI on them. Every one of the Mini-Teranex with an Optical connection, and their accompanying technical diagram, show the optical connection as "Optical In/Out." Do they all actually have both an In and an Out? Is it an actual output, or just a loop from the optical input?

Can the "Audio to Optical" Mini-Teranex be used as a "SDI to Optical"? It looks like it can. Maybe.

And on the flip side of the signal, can the "Optical to Audio" be used as a "Optical to SDI"??? Its drawing looks like that is not a possibility. They don't seem to have a Mini-Teranex box that will go from Optical to SDI, unless i am overlooking something.

WTF, Blackmagic? Optical to-and-from SDI should be the first versions of this box you make. It is the most important conversion of all the possible choices, probably the easiest, but is the one you leave out. Seriously, WTF?
Scott R Smith
BMD Stuff I use: ATEM 2-M/E, 4 x ATEM PS 4K, Broadcast Videohub, 6 Hyperdeck Pros, 4 Hyperdeck Shuttles, Multidock, Smartscope Duo, Smartview, Intensity Extreme, Decklink Studio, and lots of Miniconverters and Open Gear Converters.
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Xtreemtec

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Re: MiniTeranex SDI to Optical and vice versa

PostTue Mar 21, 2017 11:11 am

:lol: :lol: Finally someone speaks it out loud.. I saw this 2 years ago when the Teranex minis were anounced on the trade show.. And none of the Reps could tell me where the SDI version. / why the sdi version was missing..

Oh and Yes you can use the Audio to optical to send 12G down the fiber.. But on the receiving end the only 2 devices that can handle 12G fiber to SDI are the Teranex Express / AV and the Camera Talkback Converter 8 channels.. (Which is 12G ready..) ;)

Well this is in development so i guess this is an envolved version of the SDI to Optical.. ;)
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=57162#p328785
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
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Re: MiniTeranex SDI to Optical and vice versa

PostThu Mar 23, 2017 3:52 pm

That's what I thought. Silly. What were they thinking? And if they overlooked this when they released this line . . . what are they currently thinking?? It should be an easy item to add to the lineup. Of all of these MiniTeranex devices, this should be the easiest one to make.
Scott R Smith
BMD Stuff I use: ATEM 2-M/E, 4 x ATEM PS 4K, Broadcast Videohub, 6 Hyperdeck Pros, 4 Hyperdeck Shuttles, Multidock, Smartscope Duo, Smartview, Intensity Extreme, Decklink Studio, and lots of Miniconverters and Open Gear Converters.
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Re: MiniTeranex SDI to Optical and vice versa

PostThu Mar 23, 2017 3:58 pm

I'd actually like to have some of these, because I really love the idea of having the front panel with the monitor, audio levels, & signal type shown on a screen. It is just a very nice confidence monitor to have right at the source. When troubleshooting, you look at your box, and see that the signal is getting to that point in the chain, and what the signal is. It's a very valuable resource for live production troubleshooting and confidence to have that front panel.

COME ON, Blackmagic . . . get it in gear!
Scott R Smith
BMD Stuff I use: ATEM 2-M/E, 4 x ATEM PS 4K, Broadcast Videohub, 6 Hyperdeck Pros, 4 Hyperdeck Shuttles, Multidock, Smartscope Duo, Smartview, Intensity Extreme, Decklink Studio, and lots of Miniconverters and Open Gear Converters.
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Re: MiniTeranex SDI to Optical and vice versa

PostMon Apr 03, 2017 6:00 am

These are definitely needed. The only way to do SDI/Optical conversion right now is using HDMI as an intermediate, thus costing almost twice as much. I'm amazed that this isn't part of their lineup.
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Xtreemtec

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Re: MiniTeranex SDI to Optical and vice versa

PostMon Apr 03, 2017 5:10 pm

There are other brands out there which do have 12G to fiber converters and vice versa..

But i agree it is missing in the lineup..
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
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JohnBengston

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Re: MiniTeranex SDI to Optical and vice versa

PostMon Apr 03, 2017 8:11 pm

It's a mistake to be crying out for these Optical to SDI for 12G fiber UHD routes.

The SDI to Network they've shown on their trade show stands should be more appealing:

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=57162#p328548

The simple reason is cost!! To run a 12G Fibre infrastructure, you have to terminate each end of a run to convert back to copper in one form or another to route via matrices or into a mixer, so 2x Teranex Mini if we had the Fiber to SDI and Visa Versa. Then you may have to Split 12G into Quad split 3G to get through 3G matrices like BMDs own Universal VideoHubs. Then re-combine and convert back to Optical to go off to destinations. And finally back to copper again at the destination.

If however you terminate all Video Over IP Optical runs on a network switch, you only need to go back to copper at each end of the circuit and you can route at the network level. Network switches can be stack-able and therefore you can expand your routing infrastructure extensively.
Specs
http://www.netgear.co.uk/business/products/switches/managed/M4300-24X24F.aspx#tab-techspecs

From Amazon
https://www.amazon.com/NETGEAR-M4300-24X24F-24x10GBASE-T-Aggregation-XSM4348S-100NES/dp/B01CU4BZG6

When even Netgear have fairly affordable kit to do this job, if you are really working with 12G SDI and think you hence need the Teranex Mini SDI->Optical and visa versa, you really should.......

Consider changing your design to one distributing Video over IP, it'll save you a lot of money and be more flexible in the medium to long term.

You may have to learn a little about networks, but hey, that's why we are technical, learning new things and new ways of working is what's cool about the job.

{Note: This is not a direct response to anything said above by other posters, it's for casual readers who might be considering deploying 12G Optical infrastructure, I'm basically saying "Wait..... for "BMDs SDI to Network" and then re-think your designs....."}
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Scott Smith

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Re: MiniTeranex SDI to Optical and vice versa

PostWed Apr 05, 2017 11:27 am

If that ipvideo stuff works out well, has no latency, looks great, sounds great, and is able to avoid data collisions and hang ups, then I will consider that option in the future. I've had enough of vaporware and promises though. When it is a working, stable choice, and can go through firewalls and different subsets, we'll talk. Seriously, it sound promising, but I'd have to rely on Other People's Stuff for network usage. I don't see this working across our college campus network, and colleges typically have rugged and reliable networks, though some of that ruggedness tends to put a halt on things like this video. Point to point fiber will get there.

(And doesn't 12G mean 12 Gigabit? How well is that really going to work on a 10 Gigabit switch?)

But notice I never even mentioned 12G video, earlier? I am fully in the waiting mode for 12G infrastructure. 4K video, to me, is a shoot and edit medium, not a live one. But they don't have mini-Teranex that will do 3G video Fiber to SDI and vice versa. If they can do all of those other conversions, but cannot do the most basic and obvious one, it is a problem.
Scott R Smith
BMD Stuff I use: ATEM 2-M/E, 4 x ATEM PS 4K, Broadcast Videohub, 6 Hyperdeck Pros, 4 Hyperdeck Shuttles, Multidock, Smartscope Duo, Smartview, Intensity Extreme, Decklink Studio, and lots of Miniconverters and Open Gear Converters.
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Re: MiniTeranex SDI to Optical and vice versa

PostWed Apr 05, 2017 11:52 am

Well 3G is possible with the Mini converter Optical fiber series..

They don't heat up like the other miniconverts do as they don't have a lot of processing in there.. Just standard chipsets that break down sdi to fiber and vice versa..

The Teranex mini's do have Latency!! They processing the signal trough a FPGA.. so there is latency.. Maybe not a lot.. Maybe within a few lines of video..

The older mini converters only have a Reclocker worth of latency.. ;) ;)
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Re: MiniTeranex SDI to Optical and vice versa

PostWed Apr 05, 2017 12:49 pm

My deal with this, is that I'd love to have the lack of a wall wart power supply, and have those little monitors on the front that show the picture and the video format. The confidence monitoring when dealing with fiber connections would be valuable to me, as would the rack mount ability. To throw 6 of these in my remote package rack, then in the rack room where my fibers come back out, and be able to see the signal on every fiber going out or coming in at the same time, in the rack . . . This is a great option and format for a better-than-simple-crappy-box to use for this.

Walk into my rack, look up, and there are all my remotes coming in on little monitors, showing the format so I can double-check that the cameras are set right, and little audio meters, so I can see the levels.

Oops, nothing is on remote #4. Pick up the phone, "Guys, I got nothing on #4".
"Oh, yeah, it isn't on ours either. Let me go check the camera."
It would make things so much more user friendly and easy to trouble-shoot than a bland little box, sitting on the floor, that may or may not have a tiny, hard to see LED, that shows a connection link.

I simply can't understand why this isn't being made. Why it upsets me, is that I think they are a great design and format of converter, and I see how useful it would be. And they make every other conversion type, except the easiest, probably cheapest, most obvious one.
Scott R Smith
BMD Stuff I use: ATEM 2-M/E, 4 x ATEM PS 4K, Broadcast Videohub, 6 Hyperdeck Pros, 4 Hyperdeck Shuttles, Multidock, Smartscope Duo, Smartview, Intensity Extreme, Decklink Studio, and lots of Miniconverters and Open Gear Converters.
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Re: MiniTeranex SDI to Optical and vice versa

PostWed Apr 05, 2017 4:45 pm

Scott,

SMPTE 2022 Video over IP routes have been used in broadcast for a number of years now, I think the standard got locked down around 10 years ago. Latency is on the microsecond scale, so lines rather than frames, and completely manageable, or given the way many contributors talk about latency & sync on this forum – probably best described as “totally irrelevant to BMD users”.

The 12G down a 10G link problem (or HD 1.5G data through a 1Gb/s network) BMD have solved using TICO, which you can read about here:

http://www.tico-alliance.org/

Of course until BMD put the device out there, we won’t know how good their implementation is, but from what I saw on their stand, it looked very promising to me.

I’m aware you didn’t mention 12G, which is why I specifically said my post was not a direct response to the earlier comments on the topic and was intended to discourage casual readers from going down the point-to-point optical route at all. Which in 2017 with BMD VoIP solution pending, is IMHO: stupidly expensive!! For 1.5G, 3G and even 6G SDI to optical (P2P) BMD have the normal mini-converter range which will do the job you are talking about effectively and at a lower cost than the Teranex Mini options. In fact $495 for the Teranex Minis plus $85 for the front panel, compared against $195 for the 3G converters, means that you’d only need 3 routes to make BMDs Multiview16 a better option for monitoring, as you are paying $365 dollars more for each of your fiber to SDI conversion, at 2 per route, than you need to. It’s crazy logic (or at least economics) mate! As for wall warts, just buy a higher power 12V transformer or two and power all your mini-converters from it.

You are correct and absolutely I am not recommending piggy backing onto existing data networks, unless said network is extremely well built, and you love meetings with IT. But I don’t see a major difference between using a Videohub or other video matrix, and using “dedicated for video routes” network switches, except obviously the cost and flexibility of network switches is better. The point I made about most video matrices running at 3G and the need to break out of optical back to copper becomes particularly relevant when working with 12G and needing to split to use 4 inputs and 4 outputs of the matrix for routing a single signal.

And that is the “whole-point”, BMD have a 12G Teranex Mini SDI-> optical for P2P using the Audio to Optical solution, which makes a lot of sense for getting UHD cameras onto P2P optical routes. So the option you are saying is missing is Optical->SDI. But……. in a point to point circuit, what are you going to plug the SDI end into?? The answer is a 4K monitor, which will need HDMI anyway. If you are running a 12G ATEM you might want to land the SDI there, I get that, but I maintain if you are setup that way, you’d be better off with a 10G switch and a bunch of Teranex Mini Network boxes, as you get routing for free that way.

VoIP offers so many advantages over old-school SDI, like being able to do ISO recording / monitoring via a copper 10G RJ45 cable into a computer / server without the need for capture cards.

Infrastructure changes take a long time to be fully realized, but the move to VoIP is cool because you can do it bit by bit.

The TICO and SMPTE 2022 technology is well worth your time investigating if considering moving to 12G, or even if you just want to update 1.5G HD infrastructure to be modern and flexible.

So to BMD, and again IMHO, if you are considering where to spend resource: on either Optical->SDI Point to Point Teranex Mini or getting your VoIP solution to market, my vote is firmly for the latter! Both would be nice, but Video over IP is far more important and relevant to current industry trends.
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Re: MiniTeranex SDI to Optical and vice versa

PostWed Apr 05, 2017 6:07 pm

JohnBengston wrote: If you are running a 12G ATEM you might want to land the SDI there, I get that, but I maintain if you are setup that way, you’d be better off with a 10G switch and a bunch of Teranex Mini Network boxes, as you get routing for free that way.

Well not totally free.... I checked some 10G SFP switches.. And they range from 5K up to 12K for a switch..
Then you will need to have 10G SFP's which don't come under 200 dollars a piece.. And if you want to go to your Atem 4K Broadcast you need those Tico to sdi boxes again with a 200 dollar SFP.... ;)

I agree with you that IP can / could be the future.. Especially because the whole market of control is already opting for IP.. (CCU's from sony and GV, Atem control, IP streaming cameras, NDI)

I will keep myself updated as possible on any info of Tico and BMD implementing 10G.. But on the other side i'm going the 12G fiber route for the coming 3 to 5 years.. But that is also because i'm developing a 12G fiber sollution..
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Re: MiniTeranex SDI to Optical and vice versa

PostWed Apr 05, 2017 6:37 pm

Naaaaahhhrr,

https://www.amazon.com/NETGEAR-M4300-8X8F-8x10GBASE-T-Aggregation-XSM4316S-100NES/dp/B01CU4BQT2

16 port 10G switch for under 1700 dollars, and you can expect prices to fall
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Re: MiniTeranex SDI to Optical and vice versa

PostThu Apr 06, 2017 7:50 am

Xtreemtec wrote:Well not totally free.... I checked some 10G SFP switches.. And they range from 5K up to 12K for a switch..
Then you will need to have 10G SFP's which don't come under 200 dollars a piece.. And if you want to go to your Atem 4K Broadcast you need those Tico to sdi boxes again with a 200 dollar SFP.... ;)


I purchased cisco 500 series with 10g ports for about $1000 each, 10g sfp for about $100, bidirectional fiber even... pays to shop around :D
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Scott Smith

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Re: MiniTeranex SDI to Optical and vice versa

PostThu Apr 06, 2017 5:09 pm

I actually have a Netgear 4300-12X12F, which has 12 optical and 12 twisted pair 10GBE connections. Which leads me to ask . . . is this 12G-SDI IP solution going to ever utilize 10GBE copper? That would add a ton of value to me down the road, since UTP is inexpensive and easy to work with. I'm probably not going to get into fiber termination myself.

Next up, how do you perform the routing commands? Given the way ethernet routers work, it would seem to me like you'd end up having to set IP addresses at the sources to send to a destination. That isn't exactly a convenient routing method. Hopefully they have some better control protocol in place.

And back to the Teranex issue . . . You are correct that it is a little on the expensive side, when used for non 12G stuff. So, I would also love it if they made a less expensive 3G version at, say $349?. They don't have to be exclusively 12G on this product line, they choose to. But I still stick to my assertion of there being a market for this form factor, with Fiber to HDSDI and vice versa. More expensive than mini-converters? Yes. More expensive than mini-converters plus the Multiview16 and a monitor? At a certain point, yes. But there is a price to be paid for convenience and features. Some people would be quite willing to pay extra to have 6 fiber to HDSDI converters, with monitoring and signal info, wrapped up with very little hassle into two rack spaces, with no extraneous cabling or wall warts. I mean, I could install an expensive high-end Clearcom wireless intercom at a very high price, I could put in a cheapo off-brand party line system, or we could use two cans on a string. Sometimes you pay for beneficial features, and functionality - and I see the form factor of the Teranex minis as worth paying for . . . . if only they had a model that did what I need.
Scott R Smith
BMD Stuff I use: ATEM 2-M/E, 4 x ATEM PS 4K, Broadcast Videohub, 6 Hyperdeck Pros, 4 Hyperdeck Shuttles, Multidock, Smartscope Duo, Smartview, Intensity Extreme, Decklink Studio, and lots of Miniconverters and Open Gear Converters.
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Re: MiniTeranex SDI to Optical and vice versa

PostThu Apr 06, 2017 8:10 pm

Scott Smith wrote:I actually have a Netgear 4300-12X12F, which has 12 optical and 12 twisted pair 10GBE connections. Which leads me to ask . . . is this 12G-SDI IP solution going to ever utilize 10GBE copper? That would add a ton of value to me down the road, since UTP is inexpensive and easy to work with. I'm probably not going to get into fiber termination myself.

Next up, how do you perform the routing commands? Given the way ethernet routers work, it would seem to me like you'd end up having to set IP addresses at the sources to send to a destination. That isn't exactly a convenient routing method. Hopefully they have some better control protocol in place.


We just don't know, coz BMD haven't released their implementation, but I'd hope that given the devices are on the network, configuration via visiting the units SHOULD be unnecessary. The model I saw only had a 1Gb/s copper RJ45 port, but again since it's not released they may be re-visiting that design. Fiber termination is obviously harder and more expensive than crimping an RJ45 on twisted pair, but not massively so, and you'll only mess up a few whilst learning.

We just have to wait and see, but it's the VoIP I am excited about, but if you've got the budget for P2P Fiber circuits and the associated routing conversion and gear, why not..

We'll see what BMD do at NAB, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see both solutions launched, but I do expect that that the P2P 12G stuff will be obsolete in next to no time, it's just too expensive in comparison and offers absolutely zero advantages.
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Re: MiniTeranex SDI to Optical and vice versa

PostWed May 17, 2017 9:20 pm

Alright they released the Teranex SDI to IP unit..

But now i want to know when the Optical series get that TICO fw upgrade..
It seems that they are able to do it making from this picture... :D
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Re: MiniTeranex SDI to Optical and vice versa

PostWed May 17, 2017 10:17 pm

Scott Smith wrote:I actually have a Netgear 4300-12X12F, which has 12 optical and 12 twisted pair 10GBE connections. Which leads me to ask . . . is this 12G-SDI IP solution going to ever utilize 10GBE copper?

10GBASE-T SFP+ modules exist already, though I don't know if this will work with TICO. I haven't looked into the subject much.
Next up, how do you perform the routing commands? Given the way ethernet routers work, it would seem to me like you'd end up having to set IP addresses at the sources to send to a destination. That isn't exactly a convenient routing method. Hopefully they have some better control protocol in place.

They have a section in the manual about this, using IP Videohub software to control them all. Seems pretty simple, since it's all multicast based.
And back to the Teranex issue . . . You are correct that it is a little on the expensive side, when used for non 12G stuff. So, I would also love it if they made a less expensive 3G version at, say $349?

The current model can actually do 3G-SDI over gigabit ethernet, which is more interesting to me than the 12G-SDI feature.
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Re: MiniTeranex SDI to Optical and vice versa

PostFri May 19, 2017 10:22 pm

Totally random notes about networked video vs optical SDI here. A bit off topic, my apologies.

As someone who has a very large IP video network as well as a large optical SDI network allow me to caution against thinking that the IP video revolution will solve all of your woes today. It will solve many and introduce a whole different set of issues.

IP will eventually be the way everything goes, I think there is little doubt of that. But for long runs there is a beauty and elegance in optical SDI. It is far less complex, can end up costing far less money and you don't need to worry about packetization issues. You can even use CWDM with BMD products to get 18 feeds down 1 fiber optic cable, or 36 cameras down 2 strands of cable. That's 27Gbps of TICO video at 1080p/60 that your network would need to be able to manage down those same 2 strands of fiber -- meaning you're in 40Gbps transport/backhaul territory now. Depending on your topology this may or may not work for you. Everything connected to one switch? You may be OK. More than one switch? Uh oh, time to get some more $$ SFPs for that transport!

In some cases it just makes a lot more sense for us to network transit the video. In many other cases it makes a lot more sense for optical SDI. Really look at what you're trying to do and come to a conclusion based on your current workflow.

What I'm excited for is a TICO based camera that gets it command/control/PTZ as well as power and video all over one Ethernet cable. That will be a magical day for me, especially if it is in an outdoor enclosure, has PTZ not in a dome and can do 4k/240. At night. I feel like I may be asking too much here though ;)
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