Smart Videohub CleanSwitch

Can someone confirm for me, if i can go from One input to Multiple output with one single source.

Eg
..
ATEM Program out put to Input Port 1 on Video Hub.
to, Output Port 1, 2,3 ,4 on Video hub

thanks

Yes that would work.

But we had a real Problem with the Videohub Cleanswitch:
If a valid HD-SDI signal drops on Input one, you get glitches on every output of the videohub.

I didn't try the latest frimware but that is a total showstopper for a videohub that is called "cleanswitch"!

Cheers

Robert

@Robert
The cleanswitch is not to blame:
If there is no external sync, the switch uses input #1 as a reference.
If that drops, the sync also drops: a glitch on all outputs.
You can use a stable SDI signal at input 1 or you can use a external sync.

It has nothing to do with firmware.
Showstopper? No.
Read the manual? Always, but you can't find it there

Gerard

That's not too "Smart". The Smart box should have its own reference signal to fall on in the event of no external reference...

Do all of the smart videohubs (non-clean switch 20x20, 40x40) do the same without external sync?

[Gary Adams]

Hello Ben. All of the "non Clean Switch" Videohubs use reference to determine when the actual switch takes place and will not cause non switched outputs to break up in any way. There could be a glitch on the output you are switching if the videos do not match in timing and resolution.

Regards, Gary

Hello Ben. All of the "non Clean Switch" Videohubs use reference to determine when the actual switch takes place and will not cause non switched outputs to break up in any way. There could be a glitch on the output you are switching if the videos do not match in timing and resolution.

Regards, Gary

Thanks for the reply Gary! I haven't set up my 40x40 yet, just making sure I didn't need to order an external sync when I do.

[Gary Adams]

A lot depends on what you are switching. If most or all of the sources are non synchronous and different resolutions and frame rates, feeding a reference will not help much. This dates back to my day when most of the signals (analog,sorry) were locked together so feeding a reference would force the actual switch during the vertical interval eliminating a visible glitch. If all or most of your signals are locked then i would recommend having a reference, but it is not necessary.

Regards, Gary

@Robert
The cleanswitch is not to blame:
If there is no external sync, the switch uses input #1 as a reference.
If that drops, the sync also drops: a glitch on all outputs.
You can use a stable SDI signal at input 1 or you can use a external sync.

It has nothing to do with firmware.
Showstopper? No.
Read the manual? Always, but you can't find it there

Gerard

Gert,

that is really not that smart!

It should be the same as with our 2ME and TVS. They use their own sync. You can plug out any of the inputs without any glitches on the output. That is what I would expect from a product called "cleanswicth". Where do you have your info from that the switch uses input 1 as reference?
If that is the case it would be important for BMD to tell this!

@Gary
Can you please elaborate how the Cleanswitch works in regrads of reference timing?
Is it the case that the Cleanswitch uses input1 as a reference and produces horrible glitches on all outputs if the signal on input 1 drops?

Cheers

Robert

Robert,

Using a internal reference, like the TVS or Atem, will cause an extra frame of delay.
By using input 1 as a reference you should not get this extra delay for this input and all other inputs wich are in sync with input 1.
The best thing is to avoid any delay, that's why this cleanswitch is not a showstopper.

Also check this thread:
Smart Videohub CleanSwitch 12x12 clarification

A lot depends on what you are switching. If most or all of the sources are non synchronous and different resolutions and frame rates, feeding a reference will not help much. This dates back to my day when most of the signals (analog,sorry) were locked together so feeding a reference would force the actual switch during the vertical interval eliminating a visible glitch. If all or most of your signals are locked then i would recommend having a reference, but it is not necessary.

Regards, Gary

The 6g switches DO NOT switch in the vertical interleave, even with everything locked to reference the 6g switches cause a dropout on switching which makes monitors lose sync.

This is a major drawback of the 6g switches and has put a spanner in the works on several systems i've built. I no longer recommend BMD routers because of this, simple tasks such as routing your cameras to an engineering monitor with touchdown controls are not possible with the 6g BMD routers.

I wish BMD would acknowledge (and fix) this bug, it's a serious issue for people expecting their routers to work properly.

Tom can you confirm that the same applies to the 40x40 12G?? I'm in the process to buy it to go with my 2ME Broadcast.. But this is bad news..

I have a 12x12 non cleanswitch and so far i'm happy with it (but i would like to have presets )

A lot depends on what you are switching. If most or all of the sources are non synchronous and different resolutions and frame rates, feeding a reference will not help much. This dates back to my day when most of the signals (analog,sorry) were locked together so feeding a reference would force the actual switch during the vertical interval eliminating a visible glitch. If all or most of your signals are locked then i would recommend having a reference, but it is not necessary.

Regards, Gary

What if all the signals are of same type but not locked? I am playing back several blu-ray players at the same time and want to do clean cuts changing which player goes to which screen in a hall. Willvthe cleanswitch make clean cuts without dropouts? I'm less concerned with frame accuracy sync than making sure I don't have dropouts on the screen. I bought a 40x40 6G to do this and other things and it is useless in that respect.

The clean switch has framesync on each input and will provide a seamless switch between each source providing they are a common signal format.


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Tom can you confirm that the same applies to the 40x40 12G?? I'm in the process to buy it to go with my 2ME Broadcast.. But this is bad news..

Sorry no idea mate. You'll have to suck it and see.

Currently I design PPUs with engineering monitors running from ATEM AUX and suggest using Kasper's E21 GPIO to switch the Aux from RCP touchdowns. It's annoying to burn auxes for this but it's the only option if you use BMD routers.

The other option for 4k is to use a bigger 3G router with the ability to link channels. This is how all the "proper" 4K trucks are built - nobody is using "12g" it's always quad link 3G.

None of my clients care about 4k yet, in all honesty even 3G is rare.




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So yes the Cleanswitch should do that for your case..
But you need to keep a stable source on input 1 for sync..

I see more problems in the Bluray players and HDCP copy protect.. Not sure what you play out and what type of bluray player you have.. But in general these buggers have a lot of issues with HDCP when you try to do HDMI to SDI conversion..

Your 40x40 6G router does not cleanswitch.. 1 way to solve this is to put SDI to HDMI miniconverters 6G behind the monitors.. They support a mode that the monitor won't drop it's output but keeps online.. (probabbly a black image until the converter syncs to a different feed..)
with this but also with the Cleanswitch your sources have to be the same resolution and framerate to work clean.. When you feed different sources the Monitor will still change to a different res / frm And thus resync..

@Tom.
Thanks for the clarification.. I build my OBV 12G 4K on purpose..
First of all because of the 12G broadcast 4K mixer. (going into 4K 50P ) ( i dont have a sony or GV that runs Quad 3G)

But second because i like the 12G standard and what BMD did with it..

Sure 12G is not widely adopted yet.. 4K is not widely adopted yet.. Why would you spend all the bucks on 4K then..

Well because my clients are festivals, concerts etc.. The aftermovie crew shoots all RED with 4K and up..
More and more clients ask for the registration in 4K too..

In the past we did 3G live registration on FS7 with 4K Iso inside the camera.
So the client could use 4K images but the registration was 1080P50 for youtube..

Rendering 1 hour live sets in 4K from all iso's and a EDL file is a nightmare.. So the "easiest" way is to go full 4K into the OBV.. Mix it and have 4K live sets right away..
Yes i know who is watching in 4K.. But if a client want 4K we can deliver..

The only thing that was missing was a 12G 4K fiber backend between camera and OBV.. But i seem to have solved that problem since this month too.. I hope to have my 12G fiber backends prototypes ready in a month.. (with intercom, Tally and Shading )

The 12G fiber tranceivers are in testing now and do very well on the work bench.. Almost ready to hit Field testing

Interesting... festivals here want to spend as little as possible! If there is tv coverage they will be 1080i (possibly PSF if the director wants progressive look). If it's IMAG only then they don't care what format it is (portrait IMAG centre cropped from 1080i is annoyingly common)

I've never seen red or alexas being used for live coverage in the UK. I've seen them shooting b roll and GVs on such cameras but stages are done with proper studio cameras (because of need for B4 lenses and servo zooms)

There is a limited stock of 4k studio cameras in the uk (someone has got a few of the LDKs I think)




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Thanks to both of you Tom and Daniel for your assistance.

Robert,

Using a internal reference, like the TVS or Atem, will cause an extra frame of delay.
By using input 1 as a reference you should not get this extra delay for this input and all other inputs wich are in sync with input 1.
The best thing is to avoid any delay, that's why this cleanswitch is not a showstopper.

Also check this thread:
Smart Videohub CleanSwitch 12x12 clarification

Sorry Gert but that is nonsense. The only thing that the Cleanswitch should ever sychrionize to is the reference input and NOT input 1. As pointed out in the thread that you mentioned it is dangerous and doesn't make any sense to use input 1 as reference when there is an extra genlock input. As soon as you have an unstable or dropping signal on input 1 you will get drop outs on EVERY output of the Cleanswitch.

And of course you get a one frame delay on every source that is not in sync with the reference. You can't avoid that - no matter if you use ref input or input 1 as reference. That's what the cleanswitch is all about.

As for now, the reference input on the Cleanswitch has no use. That is a real showstopper! Because you can't use the Cleanswicth without losing an input (as reference input). Why oh why did they do that? There is a ref socket for exactly that.

Cheers

Robert

Hi!

Sorry for resurrecting an old thread but I was wondering if the issues outlined above had been fixed. Is it still true that the genlock doesn't do anything on these units?!?

I would have assumed that if I was using one of these that was genlocked to all the cameras and the switcher then it would have zero latency. Is that the case?