Ursa Mini Pro Reference while using fiber?

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Zack Pittman

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Ursa Mini Pro Reference while using fiber?

PostFri Nov 10, 2017 8:31 am

Short story, I'm building a 4k60p system, and one of the cameras I'm considering is the Ursa Mini Pro for live events and broadcasts. I have pretty much designed the whole system, just about to get into the testing and demo'ing phase, but I just realized I missed something pretty big.... Genlock to the cameras. (Doh!)

All the cameras will be connected through bi-directional 12G fiber, using hybrid fiber cable (2 optical, 2copper for power). This will get me my camera signals to the truck and the return to the camera, and with a mix of ATEM (not my primary switcher), 4k Camera Converter, and some Skaarhoj devices, I will be able to get 100% of the control I need through the SDI return.... EXCEPT.... Reference...

So if I'm sticking with the cabling option I have planned, the only way I get reference to the camera is to do Passive Optical Splitting on both ends, and do some CWDM mux/demux on one of the stands and get Genlock over fiber using some higher wavelength fiber SFP's, but honestly, this is a PAIN in the but for a 10-12 Camera system.

So here is what I would LOVE to see BM put in their next camera update is to allow setting camera reference to the timing of the SDI return channel. This is similar to what Decimator does on the MDHX to allow ref input, as it strips the timing of the SDI input.
(unless its currently there as I haven't physically tested UPM yet, but nothing in documentation)

Does anyone else have thoughts one how to handle Reference to the cameras in this scenario?
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Asgeir Hustad

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro Reference while using fiber?

PostFri Nov 10, 2017 10:39 am

I am quite sure BMD already do this by default - according to some posts from Gary Adams already posted in this forum. To summarize, they lock on the timing signal from the return video, and then advance the timing signals to match. Seems like magic, but it should apparently work.

See viewtopic.php?f=4&t=22320&p=354451&hilit=genlock#p140519

Also, remember to use the latest firmware, as that's where the output delay was fixed to be less than one frame, down from a couple.
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Xtreemtec

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro Reference while using fiber?

PostFri Nov 10, 2017 10:50 am

Blackmagic camera manual Page 42

Hmm seems that the PDF's now are select protected.. So can not copy and paste text anymore on to the forum from the Manuals.. :| That is not very handy..

Anyway see picture.
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Reference Ursa.png
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Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
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Gary Adams

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro Reference while using fiber?

PostFri Nov 10, 2017 3:14 pm

I would like to also add that when using Program as the Reference, set the Line Reference Timing Line adjustment to -10 or the maximum negative (in some of our other Studio Cameras). This will insure the video timing arrives to the ATEM ahead of time with respect to the ATEM. This will guarantee the minimum delay through the ATEM.

Regards, Gary
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Zack Pittman

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro Reference while using fiber?

PostFri Nov 10, 2017 7:52 pm

Gary Adams wrote:I would like to also add that when using Program as the Reference, set the Line Reference Timing Line adjustment to -10 or the maximum negative (in some of our other Studio Cameras). This will insure the video timing arrives to the ATEM ahead of time with respect to the ATEM. This will guarantee the minimum delay through the ATEM.

Regards, Gary


When you do this are you relying on FS in the switcher still? or is -10 actually needed to time it out perfectly for some reason? I ask because ATEM likely wont be my primary switcher, even though I will have 2 of them for auxiliary use. My likely primary switch will not be using any FS in 12G mode, so the camera has to be timed perfectly.
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Xtreemtec

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro Reference while using fiber?

PostFri Nov 10, 2017 9:40 pm

What Will you mixer Be Then? Which mixer does support 12G at the moment apart from the Atem series?
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV, ATEM TVS HD, Production Studio 4K, 2M/E Broadcast Studio 4K, Hyperdeck Studio, SONY FS7 4K, JVC HM700 Full HD Camera
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Zack Pittman

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro Reference while using fiber?

PostSat Nov 11, 2017 5:09 am

Xtreemtec wrote:What Will you mixer Be Then? Which mixer does support 12G at the moment apart from the Atem series?


Well there are a couple options with S.A.M., especially the Kula 12G. I love that switcher, and the other alternative is Ross with the Carbonite Black Plus 12G Frame. With these options, thought its an every 4th input deal and the internals are 2SI for switching. BM ATEM Broadcast has the advantage with have more I/O, but fails pretty bad with keyers and everything else. Its really a 1 1/2 ME switcher with the lack of keying. So minus the number of inputs, the Carbonite Black Plus 12G is a much better option, as in 4k, its 1 full M/E with (2) "Mini ME's" with are basically half M/E's with their own keys. The only problem to then fix is only having (9) 12G inputs. I plan on doing that with the Ultrix Router, as I can build a "Smart Routing System" to router whatever inputs the switch calls for on the fly, and since Ultrix also has built in MV'ing, I can see all of my sources through that MV, thus building me a ghetto giant 12G SDI switcher, that people don't second guess, which is the problem I have when people hear Blackmagic as the center core of a 4k60p system.

The other advantage to the either of those systems, is when I turn the whole system to 3G, I have the ultimate 3G system with both of those switchers. Sure they are a different price point than the ATEM, but only about double when you include the control panel.

Now, I really really really hope BM releases a new 12G ATEM that can really compete with the Ross and SAM's of the world in 4k, with all the proper amount of keying, and maybe even a 3 M/E version, along with an updated control panel.

Or maybe someone else will enter the 12G switcher world soon... but I can only hope.

Blackmagic.... if you are listening... PLEASE RELEASE A LARGER 12G ROUTER! please please please.... I would Love if this was in the same form factor as the universal video hub... Modular... As of right now the only thing larger than 72x72 (being Ultrix), is Utah Scientific, and they are VERY proud of their 288x288 12G router. My God that thing is pricey.
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Howard Roll

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro Reference while using fiber?

PostSat Nov 11, 2017 7:15 pm

Tri-level sync to all sources is generally adequate for most modern switchers. The necessity of input timing died with analog switchers. If you need a clean switch on a router then your inputs must be timed properly to a sync generator. Still you can’t time an input to an output and get a clean switch without delay.

If actual timing is critical, you will need to sync the cameras to a generator not the switcher output.

Good luck
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Gary Adams

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro Reference while using fiber?

PostMon Nov 13, 2017 6:50 pm

Our Studio type cameras allow precision timing down to the pixel if you need it. Hopefully that's close enough. The ATEMs do not need this much precision. By setting to the earliest timing, you will make sure it will work with all ATEMs at minimum latency and any resolution and rate without having to measure the delay.

Regards, Gary
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Xtreemtec

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro Reference while using fiber?

PostMon Nov 13, 2017 10:02 pm

@Zack,

Sounds like a lot of hassle and added hardware to do a few things more then the Atem Broadcast.

I own a 4K OBV build on the Broadcast and 12G 40x40 matrix. Yes the Matrix is on the small side.. As we lose 20 in/out to the mixer for routing. Another 12 outputs to monitor routing so that does not leave much room for external feeds.

But then we are build on a budget. ;) And yes i believe that a 288x288 12G router is freaking expensive. But the Crosspoint chip alone (Semtech GX 3290 ) is allready top of the bill. Then every input reclocker and output driver adds $40 for the chip and if they use a decent connector manufacturer $10 a piece for a propper 12G bnc.
Only in parts without designing, programming etc etc.. Only chips and connectors we are already talking about 30K ;)

If 12G survives and gets adopted more with other manufacturers... Chips will sell more. Prices will drop. More companies will get involved in 12G and prices of the gear will drop too.. But 12G is just released. I develope hardware for 12G application and i can tell you from my personal standpoint that there are still a lot of issues with 12G to work out. Getting hardware to be SMPTE complaint is a stepp hill and requires a lot more development time then 3G does these days..

We have had demo's on the IBC booth were a 12G screen from 1 brand did not work with another 12G source. While it did work with the Ursa. This source was a Atomos Sumo and Recording video from the ursa then playing back still would not give a picture on that screen. While the sumo did work on the SmartView 4K. So between 12G hardware there is still some issues to work out. ;) The Whole 12G is very new and is still in it's early days. As an Early adopter you will run into a lot more problems ;)

If you are intrested drop me a PM and i can go further into details about what i come by..
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV, ATEM TVS HD, Production Studio 4K, 2M/E Broadcast Studio 4K, Hyperdeck Studio, SONY FS7 4K, JVC HM700 Full HD Camera
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Howard Roll

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro Reference while using fiber?

PostTue Nov 14, 2017 4:47 pm

If massive 12g routers are difficult and expensive to source you might think about using open gear DAs upstream. Most of the flypacks I work with are wired this way. The first 20 inputs on the rack feed DAs which are then patched to the switcher, the router, then 2 or 3 convenience taps to the backplane for monitoring, iso recording, or in your case another desk. Now your 40X40 router is huge because in this configuration you're not burning all of your outputs just to get switcher inputs, in fact you're not using any.

Good Luck
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Zack Pittman

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro Reference while using fiber?

PostThu Nov 16, 2017 5:30 am

Xtreemtec wrote:
Sounds like a lot of hassle and added hardware to do a few things more then the Atem Broadcast.


@ Xtreemtec
Its a lot of effort, agreed.... but the reality is that a 100% BM truck doesn't sell very well in the US, at least not the clients I'm going after. So getting a carbonite switcher in that can also handle some 12G, will sell better than ATEM. The reality is that if the ATEM had a lot more DVE's and keyers, I could convince a lot more people that its worth it.

Xtreemtec wrote:But then we are build on a budget. ;) And yes i believe that a 288x288 12G router is freaking expensive. But the Crosspoint chip alone (Semtech GX 3290 ) is allready top of the bill. Then every input reclocker and output driver adds $40 for the chip and if they use a decent connector manufacturer $10 a piece for a propper 12G bnc.
Only in parts without designing, programming etc etc.. Only chips and connectors we are already talking about 30K ;)


Wow, then they are making a KILLING! (I know they prob had a ton of R&D) but retail for the 288x288 with enough control panels for a small truck is about $250k.....

Xtreemtec wrote:If 12G survives and gets adopted more with other manufacturers... Chips will sell more. Prices will drop. More companies will get involved in 12G and prices of the gear will drop too.. But 12G is just released. I develope hardware for 12G application and i can tell you from my personal standpoint that there are still a lot of issues with 12G to work out. Getting hardware to be SMPTE complaint is a stepp hill and requires a lot more development time then 3G does these days..


I feel as 12G it will make a bigger breakthrough during NAB this next year. This past year AIMS just confused the heck out of everyone with the change in the direction with IP, and with a whole new infrastructure required for IP, I just don't see the non enterprise markets buying on for years to come, thus the only real single wire 4k option is 12G.

How is anyone allowed to release gear without it being 100% SMPTE complaint?

What kind of 12G toys do you make ? 8-)

Xtreemtec wrote:
If you are intrested drop me a PM and i can go further into details about what i come by..


If you were in the States, I would love to get you lunch and pick your brain. Sounds like you may have been through a lot of what I'm about to go through. But yes, I would love to learn more about anything odd you have learned about 12G. I would be very appreciative of any info. 8-)
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Zack Pittman

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro Reference while using fiber?

PostThu Nov 16, 2017 5:42 am

Howard Roll wrote:If massive 12g routers are difficult and expensive to source you might think about using open gear DAs upstream. Most of the flypacks I work with are wired this way. The first 20 inputs on the rack feed DAs which are then patched to the switcher, the router, then 2 or 3 convenience taps to the backplane for monitoring, iso recording, or in your case another desk. Now your 40X40 router is huge because in this configuration you're not burning all of your outputs just to get switcher inputs, in fact you're not using any.

Good Luck


Yeah the goal right now is to have an entire OpenGear frame of Ross DRA890216 (2x16) 12G DA. This would be no matter what router we use. Ideally a 72x144 would be nice. I will have 30 Monitoring devices that would require outputs, then (10) fully configurable 8x1 Multiviewers. Those things along will take 110 outputs, leaving 30 outputs for any signals that aren't on a DA that need to get into a switcher, or external of the truck, but that leads me to my next issue. Patchbays... there are no 12G rated NORMALIZED patch bays out yet. Which makes it a pain to quickly replace one of the 20 DA outputs to the switcher. I dont want non-normalized patch bays, cause I will have hundreds of jumpers or wires always needed to be plugged in...
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Howard Roll

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro Reference while using fiber?

PostThu Nov 16, 2017 10:41 am

Why would you want or need 12G outputs to feed a multi view?
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Zack Pittman

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro Reference while using fiber?

PostThu Nov 16, 2017 4:29 pm

Howard Roll wrote:Why would you want or need 12G outputs to feed a multi view?



3G for pure multi viewing would be fine... but how do you supposed down converting from 12G without spending over $1k per channel and adding almost 2 frames of latency (Teranex). It an entire 4k60p system, so everything will be 12G and the only thing that isn’t 12G are the output of the multiviewers, which are 3G. (No affordable 12G multi viewer with 12G out on the market yet)
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Howard Roll

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro Reference while using fiber?

PostThu Nov 16, 2017 6:23 pm

Any CCU I've ever used has monitor outs that are lower res than the primary outputs. SDI CCUs had analog, HDSDI CCUs have SD outs, and 4K chains have HD outs. Are you talking about building a 4K system around all Ursas? If so I'd send both the 4k and 2k output over fiber. Silverback and Copperheads make some end to end solutions for using cinema cams in a broadcast friendly manner. Which ties into your original question, you could go DIY and use expanded beam fiber which would give you 4 fiber lines, 4k out, 2K out, SDI control in, and genlock. If you're thrifty you could probably build a DIY solution for about $3000 per camera chain.

Good Luck
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Xtreemtec

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro Reference while using fiber?

PostFri Nov 17, 2017 9:10 am

Howard Roll wrote: Which ties into your original question, you could go DIY and use expanded beam fiber which would give you 4 fiber lines, 4k out, 2K out, SDI control in, and genlock. If you're thrifty you could probably build a DIY solution for about $3000 per camera chain.

It can be way cheaper. ;) But if you want to pay me $3000 per camera chain for the fiber ends i will deliver too. :mrgreen: :lol:

We are developing several fiber converter products on 12G. We just aquired a Phabrix QX 12G measurement device to probe and test our line of converters. ;)

There will be an Ursa version, but there will be a few more advanced versions too.
For other cameras that require more then 12G in / out and a decent headphone amp. ;)
Our products are compatible with the Atem Studio converters. And for 12G you would need the Studio Converter 4K. But you can also take a 19" unit with 4 or 8 tranceivers. And embed audio seperate.. ;)
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV, ATEM TVS HD, Production Studio 4K, 2M/E Broadcast Studio 4K, Hyperdeck Studio, SONY FS7 4K, JVC HM700 Full HD Camera
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Zack Pittman

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Re: Ursa Mini Pro Reference while using fiber?

PostFri Nov 17, 2017 5:26 pm

Howard Roll wrote:Any CCU I've ever used has monitor outs that are lower res than the primary outputs. SDI CCUs had analog, HDSDI CCUs have SD outs, and 4K chains have HD outs. Are you talking about building a 4K system around all Ursas? If so I'd send both the 4k and 2k output over fiber. Silverback and Copperheads make some end to end solutions for using cinema cams in a broadcast friendly manner. Which ties into your original question, you could go DIY and use expanded beam fiber which would give you 4 fiber lines, 4k out, 2K out, SDI control in, and genlock. If you're thrifty you could probably build a DIY solution for about $3000 per camera chain.

Good Luck


Silverbacks are $12k+ and its Quad 3G, so I'd have to convert 12G to quad 3G and back at the other end. Yes its an URSA setup as the original post mentioned. (even though we have gotten way off topic here, its informative).

Xtreemtec wrote:It can be way cheaper. ;) But if you want to pay me $3000 per camera chain for the fiber ends i will deliver too. :mrgreen: :lol:

We are developing several fiber converter products on 12G. We just aquired a Phabrix QX 12G measurement device to probe and test our line of converters. ;)

There will be an Ursa version, but there will be a few more advanced versions too.
For other cameras that require more then 12G in / out and a decent headphone amp. ;)
Our products are compatible with the Atem Studio converters. And for 12G you would need the Studio Converter 4K. But you can also take a 19" unit with 4 or 8 tranceivers. And embed audio seperate.. ;)


I'm hoping for a cheaper option :)

I want a way to get 12G bi direction from the camera, TC to the camera, bi-directional 3G from the camera, and gigabit ethernet trunk.... and I think I have an idea of how to build it in a "project box" that would mount on camera with all existing products, for about 2K or less. but if someone wanted to make something custom... I might be a client!

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