Studio Fibre Adapters with 3rd Party Cameras

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StevenSpence

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Studio Fibre Adapters with 3rd Party Cameras

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 12:17 am

Great update from Blackmagic Design with the studio fibre adapters. Just wondering if BMD is aupporting this new product for use with 3rd party cameras? The majority of our work is on the Sony F55 and Arri Amira cameras.
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Tobias Dieterich

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Re: Studio Fibre Adapters with 3rd Party Cameras

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 1:20 am

It looks like the internal connector is only power, so it should be possible. A nice adapter plate to V-mount offered by BMD would be handy though.

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Howard Roll

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Re: Studio Fibre Adapters with 3rd Party Cameras

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 5:56 am

StevenSpence wrote:Great update from Blackmagic Design with the studio fibre adapters. Just wondering if BMD is aupporting this new product for use with 3rd party cameras? The majority of our work is on the Sony F55 and Arri Amira cameras.


I think you'll get power, signal, comms, tally, ret, data (TBD), both of those cameras use the Sony protocol for the RCPs, I believe the Amira uses a "Lite" version. Probably won't be long before Skarhooj or someone figures it out.
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Tony Marone

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Re: Studio Fibre Adapters with 3rd Party Cameras

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 6:28 am

I like the idea of the fiber system with one major exception. Who was the genius that decided to put the SMPTE connector on the front of the terminal end? This might work in a mobile rack, maybe. In a truck I don’t think this would work at all.

For six thousand dollars, why not try to emulate the 15 to 30 thousand dollar options out there? Why must BM always strike out in a new and different way that many times has proven wrong?

This is coming from someone with 80 thousand + in BM equipment.

Opinions?

Tony
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Kevin Norris

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Re: Studio Fibre Adapters with 3rd Party Cameras

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 6:43 am

Tony Marone wrote:I like the idea of the fiber system with one major exception. Who was the genius that decided to put the SMPTE connector on the front of the terminal end? This might work in a mobile rack, maybe. In a truck I don’t think this would work at all.

For six thousand dollars, why not try to emulate the 15 to 30 thousand dollar options out there? Why must BM always strike out in a new and different way that many times has proven wrong?


I agree sometimes they go to far. I like the idea of creating a similar device to a telecast HDX/Shed fiber system but what not improve upon what they’ve built. Use the screen as a meter and diagnostic, put the smote connection on the back. I’d also like to see a optical read out on the back of the camera head or in a VF menu to show if you smpte cable has a clean connection much like a sony.

The question I have that wasn’t covered in the Press video was can the 4xRCP (advanced CCU panel)
Be connected directly to the camera via SDI to control the paint and shade features without a ATEM switcher? That’s where Skarhoj products make more since. Maybe they can create a converter box if the panel only works thru a ATEM?
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Howard Roll

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Re: Studio Fibre Adapters with 3rd Party Cameras

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 7:43 am

Kevin Norris wrote:
Tony Marone wrote:I like the idea of the fiber system with one major exception. Who was the genius that decided to put the SMPTE connector on the front of the terminal end? This might work in a mobile rack, maybe. In a truck I don’t think this would work at all.

For six thousand dollars, why not try to emulate the 15 to 30 thousand dollar options out there? Why must BM always strike out in a new and different way that many times has proven wrong?


I agree sometimes they go to far. I like the idea of creating a similar device to a telecast HDX/Shed fiber system but what not improve upon what they’ve built. Use the screen as a meter and diagnostic, put the smote connection on the back. I’d also like to see a optical read out on the back of the camera head or in a VF menu to show if you smpte cable has a clean connection much like a sony.

The question I have that wasn’t covered in the Press video was can the 4xRCP (advanced CCU panel)
Be connected directly to the camera via SDI to control the paint and shade features without a ATEM switcher? That’s where Skarhoj products make more since. Maybe they can create a converter box if the panel only works thru a ATEM?


I sat through almost the entire monjumbo. Grant specifically answers the question of why the front? It actually makes sense. It's not the front it's the back. As in the box mounts to the rear of the rack (patch side). It makes sense. With traditional rack mounted CCU you end up having jumpers to a bulkhead at the back off the rack so it eliminates these extra connections. Kind of kooky but not as ridiculous as it first appeared. I have to admit I was almost crying when I saw the SMPTE coming out of the front.

The power management on the box is well refined and there's an indicator on the back that shows power status for the back and the camera. Granted it's not a percentage but it's there. I don't think there are any third parties that offer the bandwidth that this thing is capable of. 12g up down just for the cam control and 3x3G returns in addition to ethernet, PTZ, etc., There's even a redundancy for com power if you lose the camera. It's pretty impressive. The video is a um a little painful but there are definitely some gems of insight to be gleaned. Dude definitely knows his products.

The RCP panel still needs an ATEM, for now.
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DanielDroege

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Re: Studio Fibre Adapters with 3rd Party Cameras

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 8:07 am

Would it be possible to adapt the SMPTE Fiber to LC Fiber and use local power at the camera?
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Raphaël Jacquot

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Re: Studio Fibre Adapters with 3rd Party Cameras

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 9:31 am

Tony Marone wrote:I like the idea of the fiber system with one major exception. Who was the genius that decided to put the SMPTE connector on the front of the terminal end? This might work in a mobile rack, maybe. In a truck I don’t think this would work at all.


in a truck, you'd have that end with the connector and the monitor facing backwards, towards the outside, so, when you get to the truck with your cable, you can check you're getting a correct picture from the camera without going inside, genius !
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Raphaël Jacquot

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Re: Studio Fibre Adapters with 3rd Party Cameras

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 9:34 am

Howard Roll wrote:The RCP panel still needs an ATEM, for now.


the 4 camera RCP panel is a control surface for the atem, using the atem protocol (which has been documented by skaarhoj), you could probably write some software that presents itself as a fake atem, and interface it to whatever else camera system you prefer.
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Raphaël Jacquot

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Re: Studio Fibre Adapters with 3rd Party Cameras

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 9:36 am

DanielDroege wrote:Would it be possible to adapt the SMPTE Fiber to LC Fiber and use local power at the camera?

your question is not detailed enough...
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Raphaël Jacquot

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Re: Studio Fibre Adapters with 3rd Party Cameras

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 9:39 am

Kevin Norris wrote:The question I have that wasn’t covered in the Press video was can the 4xRCP (advanced CCU panel)
Be connected directly to the camera via SDI to control the paint and shade features without a ATEM switcher? That’s where Skarhoj products make more since. Maybe they can create a converter box if the panel only works thru a ATEM?


there's the arduino shield for that ;-)
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Dave Del Vecchio

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Re: Studio Fibre Adapters with 3rd Party Cameras

PostSat Feb 03, 2018 12:06 am

DanielDroege wrote:Would it be possible to adapt the SMPTE Fiber to LC Fiber and use local power at the camera?

The optical fiber pair in the SMPTE 311M hybrid cables used by the new Studio Fiber Converter and Camera Converter are actually used for 10G Ethernet. All of the video feeds (1 UHD from the camera and 3 HD return feeds) are converted to IP video for transmission.

Given that the converters support 12G SDI for the camera feed, obviously there is some compression happening to get the data transmitted under 10 Gb/s. I'd assume that the converters probably use the same low-latency 4:1 TICO compression as the Teranex Mini IP converters Blackmagic released earlier this year. That would get the 12G video from the camera and 3G return video feeds under the available 10 Gb/s bandwidth while still allowing for other Ethernet communications.

The Studio Fiber Converter actually includes a 10G optical Ethernet port (in addition to the SDI inputs and outputs), although it seems like this may not be enabled yet. Presumably this port would be for integration with IP video workflows so that the video input and output signals could be handled over IP rather than SDI.

But what all this means is that if you were use a breakout cable to convert the SMPTE 304M fiber connector at the end of the hybrid fiber cable to LC connectors (something like this: http://www.camplex.com/product.aspx?item=HYDAP-FLC), you would need to plug the LC connectors into a 10G Ethernet switch. Then you would have an Ethernet connection with the other end of the cable. And then maybe (a big maybe) if you connected a Teranex Mini IP converter to that Ethernet switch you could convert some of the IP video signals to SDI (assuming these both use the same protocol and you could figure out how the each of the IP video feeds is addressed).

What you could not do is take the optical LC connectors from the breakout cable and connect them to one of the SDI to Optical Fiber Mini Converters (from Blackmagic or another manufacturer). These converters do not use video over IP, but instead follow the SMPTE 297 standard to send SDI video signals over fiber.
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Howard Roll

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Re: Studio Fibre Adapters with 3rd Party Cameras

PostSat Feb 03, 2018 6:52 am

DanielDroege wrote:Would it be possible to adapt the SMPTE Fiber to LC Fiber and use local power at the camera?


To what end? It's like asking can I connect SDI to HDMI to IP to HDMI to SDI. BM already has an LC option that's about 1/3rd the cost of SMPTE fibre option. The point of the new boxes is to adapt to existing practices and physical workflows. Fibre don't give a squirt it's just the pipe.
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DanielDroege

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Re: Studio Fibre Adapters with 3rd Party Cameras

PostSat Feb 03, 2018 1:09 pm

Year you are right but in my case I have go further distances. Up to 10km or so.
So I want to use cheaper LC Fiber Cable to connect camera and base station.
In this case I can also use fiber infrastructure which is not specific for broadcast use.


I can adapt the fiber from SMPTE to LC, this is not the problem.
The problem I see is are the 2 control lines in the SMPTE cable.
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Tigran Seferian

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Re: Studio Fibre Adapters with 3rd Party Cameras

PostSun Feb 04, 2018 10:12 am

Have the same question about using not SMPTE cables.

We made autosport event and have a lot fiber cables with LC. And for us it’s important to use miltifiber cables because we need to set up 4-5 cams in 2-3 km away from OB van and it’s easier to put 1 cable and find power there, that put cables for each camera.

More of that a lot of track has there own permanent fiber infrastructure and we use it.

All that help us reduce costs and make better price than ordinary tv production.

In that case the question is can we power cam and converter via local external power and will converters work if there wouldn’t be signal pair between converters?
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Re: Studio Fibre Adapters with 3rd Party Cameras

PostSun Feb 04, 2018 6:54 pm

Tigran Seferian wrote:Have the same question about using not SMPTE cables.

We made autosport event and have a lot fiber cables with LC. And for us it’s important to use miltifiber cables because we need to set up 4-5 cams in 2-3 km away from OB van and it’s easier to put 1 cable and find power there, that put cables for each camera.

More of that a lot of track has there own permanent fiber infrastructure and we use it.

All that help us reduce costs and make better price than ordinary tv production.

In that case the question is can we power cam and converter via local external power and will converters work if there wouldn’t be signal pair between converters?


You can use a power injector, example https://www.grassvalley.com/assets/medi ... VidRes.png

or a cheaper version by Alexander Barmin, with lc input and smpte fiber output with power.
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Tigran Seferian

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Re: Studio Fibre Adapters with 3rd Party Cameras

PostMon Feb 05, 2018 1:36 pm

Egor Voronin wrote:
You can use a power injector, example https://www.grassvalley.com/assets/medi ... VidRes.png

or a cheaper version by Alexander Barmin, with lc input and smpte fiber output with power.


The question is will it works without data pair, because in presentation was a lot of about this
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Tobias Dieterich

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Re: Studio Fibre Adapters with 3rd Party Cameras

PostTue Feb 06, 2018 12:27 am

Tigran Seferian wrote:The question is will it works without data pair, because in presentation was a lot of about this


I think right now we don't know. I guess they don't use it, since everything is IP and goes over the fiber pair, but just a guess.

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Re: Studio Fibre Adapters with 3rd Party Cameras

PostWed Feb 14, 2018 9:02 am

Tigran Seferian wrote:Have the same question about using not SMPTE cables.

We made autosport event and have a lot fiber cables with LC. And for us it’s important to use miltifiber cables because we need to set up 4-5 cams in 2-3 km away from OB van and it’s easier to put 1 cable and find power there, that put cables for each camera.

More of that a lot of track has there own permanent fiber infrastructure and we use it.

All that help us reduce costs and make better price than ordinary tv production.

In that case the question is can we power cam and converter via local external power and will converters work if there wouldn’t be signal pair between converters?


"We have a Telecast HDX LD3 for sale on eBay , which enables SMPTE cameras to connect to the stadium fibre infrastructure and power the camera locally "
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Bryce Guinan

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Re: Studio Fibre Adapters with 3rd Party Cameras

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 1:53 am

Tigran Seferian wrote:Have the same question about using not SMPTE cables.

We made autosport event and have a lot fiber cables with LC. And for us it’s important to use miltifiber cables because we need to set up 4-5 cams in 2-3 km away from OB van and it’s easier to put 1 cable and find power there, that put cables for each camera.

More of that a lot of track has there own permanent fiber infrastructure and we use it.

All that help us reduce costs and make better price than ordinary tv production.

In that case the question is can we power cam and converter via local external power and will converters work if there wouldn’t be signal pair between converters?

In theory, if you create a break out SMPTE 311M to LC, going from Studio Fiber Converter, to Camera Fiber Converter. And power the URSA Broadcast locally via AC(which in turn powers the Camera Fiber Converter).
The system should work.
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Xtreemtec

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Re: Studio Fibre Adapters with 3rd Party Cameras

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 10:14 am

Bryce Guinan wrote:In theory, if you create a break out SMPTE 311M to LC, going from Studio Fiber Converter, to Camera Fiber Converter. And power the URSA Broadcast locally via AC(which in turn powers the Camera Fiber Converter).
The system should work.

Would this not break the whole power security feature of the converter? I think understanding the talk Grant did on the live stream the unit will not power up when the power has an error..... ;)
So with that in mind i guess the converter will never start up if the handshaking of power good with the base station is not done... :P

So i guess this will not work.,.
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Bryce Guinan

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Re: Studio Fibre Adapters with 3rd Party Cameras

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 9:30 pm

Xtreemtec wrote:
Bryce Guinan wrote:In theory, if you create a break out SMPTE 311M to LC, going from Studio Fiber Converter, to Camera Fiber Converter. And power the URSA Broadcast locally via AC(which in turn powers the Camera Fiber Converter).
The system should work.

Would this not break the whole power security feature of the converter? I think understanding the talk Grant did on the live stream the unit will not power up when the power has an error..... ;)
So with that in mind i guess the converter will never start up if the handshaking of power good with the base station is not done... :P

So i guess this will not work.,.

Hi Daniel,

Yes, with this set up you are correct in the assumption, the Studio Fiber Converter will never go into high power mode and will not be able to power the Camera/Fiber Unit . But in the description above the URSA Broadcast and Camera Fiber Converter are powered by AC, bypassing the power management settings. The optical fiber link will do a hand shake and proceed to send 1 camera feed and 3 returns.

Although this is purely theoretical/do at your own risk, as you are changing the intended operation and bypassing safety features of this product.
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Daniel Greyson

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Re: Studio Fibre Adapters with 3rd Party Cameras

PostThu Mar 22, 2018 9:25 pm

This is great info, Bryce, thanks! I, too, was curious about the extent of the handshaking and whether alternatives to SMPTE fiber are possible (for going through existing facility fiber, city dark fiber, TAC12+ snakes, etc.). It's good to know the fiber back can take power FROM the camera as well.

I am all for an IP workflow and hope that once SMPTE 2110 takes off and Blackmagic implements it, we'll have the option to use the new camera converters with local power and non hybrid tactical fiber, allowing them to simply plug into an SFP on a switch (through a patch panel of course), and all inputs and outputs routed with a Web UI. Intercom and audio could be simply added in via modern IP solutions from RTS, Clearcom and Riedel that are all embracing AES67.
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Brian Scheffler

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Re: Studio Fibre Adapters with 3rd Party Cameras

PostSat Mar 31, 2018 2:17 am

Egor Voronin wrote:You can use a power injector, example https://www.grassvalley.com/assets/medi ... VidRes.png

or a cheaper version by Alexander Barmin, with lc input and smpte fiber output with power.


Hi Egor,

We tested this today: running tactical fiber from the Blackmagic Studio Fiber Converter to the camera location. We input ST tactical fiber into a Telecast HDX power injector and ran SMPTE to the Blackmagic Camera Fiber Converter.

Unfortunately, it did not power the Camera Fiber Converter or the URSA Broadcast. In fact, it trips the fuse in the HDX (we tried multiple times). I'm curious if you or anyone else has been able to test this yet?
Brian Scheffler
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Brian Scheffler

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Re: Studio Fibre Adapters with 3rd Party Cameras

PostSat Mar 31, 2018 2:18 am

Bryce Guinan wrote:Hi Daniel,

Yes, with this set up you are correct in the assumption, the Studio Fiber Converter will never go into high power mode and will not be able to power the Camera/Fiber Unit . But in the description above the URSA Broadcast and Camera Fiber Converter are powered by AC, bypassing the power management settings. The optical fiber link will do a hand shake and proceed to send 1 camera feed and 3 returns.

Although this is purely theoretical/do at your own risk, as you are changing the intended operation and bypassing safety features of this product.


I can confirm the success of using tactical or patch fiber if you aren't able to run SMPTE the entire way to your camera.

We tested converting from SMPTE at the Studio Converter to tactical fiber and then back to SMPTE at the camera using the adapters below works just fine as long as you provide local power at the camera.
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Brian Scheffler
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Xtreemtec

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Re: Studio Fibre Adapters with 3rd Party Cameras

PostSun Apr 01, 2018 4:57 pm

Brian Scheffler wrote:Unfortunately, it did not power the Camera Fiber Converter or the URSA Broadcast. In fact, it trips the fuse in the HDX (we tried multiple times). I'm curious if you or anyone else has been able to test this yet?

Probabbly because BMD uses a different protocol to negotiate power feeds.. It does communicate on a low power mode first.. Test the line and then gives the order to crack up the power to the base station..
Your telecast HDX is not blackmagic and will not talk this protocol. And incompatibility between the 2 can be because of there is no fixed protocol for this.. Or even that the power spec of the BMD is different from the Telecast.. Could even be that the telecaster put out 50 to 100V more then the BMD or BMD has a higher voltage then telecaster.. Could very easily damage your hardware if you don't know what you are doing!!
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