Studio Fiber Converter not fully functional: no Tally or COM

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Brian Scheffler

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Studio Fiber Converter not fully functional: no Tally or COM

PostThu Mar 29, 2018 9:30 pm

Hi All,

How many others have received their Blackmagic Studio Fiber Converter and Camera Fiber Converters yet? We've received ours to demonstrate to our clients and prospective URSA Broadcast owners.

We're disappointed to learn that Blackmagic hasn't enabled the DB25 port on the back of the Studio Fiber Converter. This prevents us from testing and demonstrating some of the pivotal features of the system including external Tally support and external Intercom support.

The manual explains the DB25 connector and pinouts but fails to mention it isn't active yet, unfortunately.

So I'm curious how many other users are relying on those features before investing in the system? Are we the only ones? We, and many of our clients, are wanting to use these cameras with existing gear from other manufacturers, such as switchers and intercom systems. Or are most of you going to be using these Fiber Converters with the ATEM line and won't rely on that DB25?

Full disclosure: we're a Blackmagic Design Authorized Dealer and cannot wait to continue selling these SMPTE fiber systems -- we're very excited that BMD finally introduced the URSA Broadcast and associated SMPTE fiber systems. We just wish the full functionality was available because we've been pitching this system to a couple of our clients and they're just as excited to test it as we are!

Brian
Brian Scheffler
ScheffTech Productions, LLC
brian[AT]schefftech.com (309) 524-5865
Blackmagic Design Authorized Dealer
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nmsoundengineer

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Re: Studio Fiber Converter not fully functional: no Tally or

PostThu Mar 29, 2018 9:54 pm

Does the LAN or RS-232 ports work as trunks yet?
David Buehler
AE Productions
Albuquerque, NM
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Tobias Dieterich

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Re: Studio Fiber Converter not fully functional: no Tally or

PostFri Mar 30, 2018 12:25 am

No intercom integration -> NO GO
Tobias Dieterich | T.D. Video Engineering | www.tdvideo.de
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Brian Scheffler

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Re: Studio Fiber Converter not fully functional: no Tally or

PostFri Mar 30, 2018 4:06 am

nmsoundengineer wrote:Does the LAN or RS-232 ports work as trunks yet?


The LAN connection is not implemented yet either, but I think I read somewhere previously that would be the case at initial launch. I have not tested any RS232 functionality.
Brian Scheffler
ScheffTech Productions, LLC
brian[AT]schefftech.com (309) 524-5865
Blackmagic Design Authorized Dealer
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Xtreemtec

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Re: Studio Fiber Converter not fully functional: no Tally or

PostFri Mar 30, 2018 10:24 am

Ethernet is not activated yet.. And will be in a future update.. They could not tell me a timeframe.. So could be months could be a year..
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV, ATEM TVS HD, 1M/E 4K, 2M/E Broadcast Studio 4K, Hyperdeck Studio Mini, SONY FS7 4K, Ursa Broadcast 4K
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Matt Certa

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Re: Studio Fiber Converter not fully functional: no Tally or

PostMon Apr 02, 2018 6:03 pm

Seriously? It’s like mini ursa 1.0 in the stone ages again, when they shipped the cameras out with no tally or Atem control functional.
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Brian Scheffler

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Re: Studio Fiber Converter not fully functional: no Tally or

PostMon Apr 02, 2018 9:25 pm

Just to clarify: Tally and Intercom are working when you use the URSA Broadcast with an ATEM switcher and/or Talkback system. But tally and intercom via the DB25 port are not working for use with other manufacturers' equipment.
Brian Scheffler
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Matt Certa

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Re: Studio Fiber Converter not fully functional: no Tally or

PostMon Apr 02, 2018 10:17 pm

Oh, thanks for the clarification!
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jensbreith

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Re: Studio Fiber Converter not fully functional: no Tally or

PostMon May 14, 2018 4:56 pm

Hi everybody,

mi first posting here, but selling BMD equipment since more than 10 years now in Germany, I thought to jump in for this topic.
We ordered the URSA Broadcast directly when they were announced, 2 full kits. Got from the very first batch, unpacked and - like everybody already knows - no function of the 25pin Sub-D port. :(

Reported back to the german distributor, BMD techs even did not noticed that. Anyway, I already posted way back then that the pinout of the 25pin is similar to the Sony-Standard (the same with panasonic by the way).
And that tally is not available with close contact rather with DC voltage which is not very common these days on professionel mixers. Anyway, nobody from BMD rather the distributor really cared about what I told them, did not even got a feedback from BMD as I offered my help to them. They only answered that the pinout is "virtually the same" to Sony - so they believe.... keep on reading broadcasters out there....

Then, 5.0.1 - and nothing new regarding that. Mmmmh
Then, 5.0.2 - and just a few news:

Tally is working (with DC voltage applied) - by the way if you turn on green tally you can hear a relais clicking inside the camera adapter, that´s not the case for red tally..... don´t know what they do inside the adapter.

Now intercom: Yes, it works for both PROD and ENG - but only if you cross input and output of your well known Sony breakout cable - because they still have the "wrong" wiring as they reversed the in/out.
So keep an eye on that if you want to solder your cables.

PGM audio is really funny - it´s NOT working from the PGM1 / PGM2 input on the 25pin - it´s only working deembedded Ch1+2 from the return video signals which are routed with the turning knobs on the back of the camera adapter. So you always here what´s embedded on the return video signal, if you switch that you´re PGM sound changes...... not the way it should be.....

That´s it for the moment, be aware of this things if you consider buying and using them in professionel environment.

Cheers

Jens
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nick1120

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Re: Studio Fiber Converter not fully functional: no Tally or

PostThu May 24, 2018 5:58 pm

Hello
I am unable to make the tally inputs work on the Dsub for the Studio Fibre Converter. Can anyone help?
Panasonic AV-HS410 GPO is the source.
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Xtreemtec

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Re: Studio Fiber Converter not fully functional: no Tally or

PostFri May 25, 2018 1:49 pm

Update the firmware!! There has been a new update 3 weeks ago that activate these functions.
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV, ATEM TVS HD, 1M/E 4K, 2M/E Broadcast Studio 4K, Hyperdeck Studio Mini, SONY FS7 4K, Ursa Broadcast 4K
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nick1120

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Re: Studio Fiber Converter not fully functional: no Tally or

PostFri May 25, 2018 5:01 pm

Thanks Xtreemtec. Yes I have the latest 5.0.2 download and cannot affect the tallies. Comms are working with 4W. How did you get your tallies working?
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jensbreith

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Re: Studio Fiber Converter not fully functional: no Tally or

PostFri May 25, 2018 7:06 pm

Hi,

you have to apply DC voltage to the correct pins on the Sub-D port, read the specs in the manual.
I know it´s not very common these days regarding to simple contact closure - but that´s how BMD designed this piece of hardware.

Cheers

Jens
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James Adkins

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Re: Studio Fiber Converter not fully functional: no Tally or

PostTue May 29, 2018 1:37 pm

Hello Jens

I'm having a similar issue with the Sub-D Port. I have managed to get the comms to work (reversing the TX/RX on the usual Sony D-Sub pinout). However, I'm struggling with tallies too; having followed the BMD manual and updated to the latest firmware.

Are you able to confirm which pins you are using in case I'm going mad or have a faulty unit? However, I have tested two units and have the same issue on both so a fault would seem unlikely to me.

Many Thanks
James
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Videotech Tim

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Re: Studio Fiber Converter not fully functional: no Tally or

PostTue Jun 05, 2018 3:00 pm

Hello All,

This is my first post here on this forum. I'm working for a regional broadcaster in the Netherlands. We have a small OB-truck which we are using for small events and press conferences.

We recently bought a BM Studio fiber and Camera unit. We are using Sony PMW-400 camera so i made a small adjustment to the camerafiber unit so i can use it as an V-MOUNT click-on unit to my camera. This works great, i can power camera and LED-lamp from the fiber unit.

IMG_0591.jpg
IMG_0591.jpg (800.99 KiB) Viewed 1415 times


Intercom:
I'm using an external Riedel intercom system (4W). Before the last update i wasn't able to use the DB25 connector and was aware of that. I used an embedder and embedded the intercom signal into channel 15/16 of return input 1. I then could use it to talk to the cameraman on the PROD channel. But they couln't talk back.

Two weeks ago i did the new firmware update and was excited that i could now use the DB25 connector and the complete intercom system.

But unfortunately not everything is working as it should....

- ENG in/out 4W is working but ENG IN is mixed into the ENG OUT!!!. This is really strange because when you talk into the ENG channel you can hear yourself coming back out of the camera. This shouldn't be... You should only hear the mic from the cameraheadset when enabled.
- Prod in/out is partially working. When inserting a signal into the DB25 connector the signal is embedded into channel 15/16 of the camera but you can't hear it on the headset. So yes the connector is working but you can only hear it embedded and not on the camera fiber unit :S :S.
- We are using David Clark and Beyer Dynamic headset, but the headset output volume is very low. When using in high noise environment the output is very low and have to crank up the intercom levels by +18db.

Tally:
Because i do not use the BM URSA Broadcast but the Sony PMW-400 i would like to use the "tracker" output to feed a small LED which is triggered by the Tally. (tally output on the tracker output +12v should work)

I use a BM GPI-Tally interface with a 12v adapter to trigger the tally input on the Studio fiber converter. I measured all signals and all is working fine as described in the manual. (i used pinout in manual). Because i don't use an Ursa i only can monitor the "Tally" coming on, from the back of the camera unit. This light will not light up when i test the unit.

@Jens how did you test the tally light do you use an URSA or only looking at the tally light at the back of the camera unit?

Probably the tracker output is also not working but first i would like to test the normal tally light on the back of the camera unit.

Further the PGM input on the DB25 is also not working yet. But not my main concern at the moment.

So in short:
- DB25 connector only works on ENG IN/OUT but is not working correct.
- Prod IN/OUT is only working embedded
- Tally is not working on DB-25 correctly
- PGM input on DB-25 is not working.

Cheers,
Tim
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jensbreith

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Re: Studio Fiber Converter not fully functional: no Tally or

PostTue Jun 05, 2018 4:34 pm

Hi everybody,

sorry for the delay, daily business with production stress.....

Just a quick note, yes the tally does work if you take the correct pins from the manual, so Pin 11+12 for R-Tally and 24+25 for G-Tally.
But as I already mentioned: NO CONTACT CLOSURE, you have to apply DC voltage in order to trigger tally. Try it with a 9V battery to see it in action.
BUT: As Tim already said there´s strange things going on with the comms - but not only with them.
When I tried the new firmware couple of days ago I simply plugged the CCU output as input for Return 1 - everything worked like described. I now switched the return input to another SDI signal (from somewhere else like it would normally be from a switcher/router) - and everything stopped working. So no tally and now comms anymore.
So BMD - that´s really not like it should be!
Seems like all that stuff is still only useable if you have a BM ecosystem. I will hook up all that gear on our test ATEM maybe tomorrow and figure that out.
By the way, as we use Sony Cameras as well, I´ll give another solution a try: Feed the serial protocol from Sony RCP through the RS422 port, not sure if they really only pass the PTZ commands which you can find in the developer protocol - or simply tunneling the RS422 through the fiber....

Cheers

Jens
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jensbreith

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Re: Studio Fiber Converter not fully functional: no Tally or

PostFri Jun 08, 2018 10:55 am

Hi everybody,

quick note, being in contact with BMD and got some feedback (of things I already knew but now it´s official from them):
You have to use "valid ATEM tally SDI stream" to Return 1 in order to make tally work!
That could be
a) an ATEM switcher
b) the arduino shield
c) SDI Out from the Studio Adapter

So for everybody who want´s to take the camera chain for other manufacturer vision mixers, you will loose the Return 1 just for getting tally and comms to work.

You have to make sure that there is a closed loop from camera to studio adapter and back to camera in order to make all things work. Once that is established, you could then use the tally pins on the Sub-D port as well as the audio ports.
BUT: As this is a closed loop, everything you put into the 4-wire inputs on the Studio adapter comes right out of the 4-wire outputs of PROD/ENG!!! So this is not a real 4-wire circuit and unsable for traditional and well known intercom circuits.
So it´s like an Always-On 100% Sidetone - with no chance to turn that off.

That´s it for the moment, keep an eye on this thread how the story evolves.....

Cheers

Jens
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pederdingo

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Re: Studio Fiber Converter not fully functional: no Tally or

PostFri Jun 08, 2018 4:30 pm

I really hope BM changes this - it would be much easier and flexible with only the cam audio output from the sub-D output.
The SDI output from the studio adapter only contains the camera output on 15-16 - but using that would require a bunch of audio de-embedders.
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Knut Bussian

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Re: Studio Fiber Converter not fully functional: no Tally or

PostSun Jun 10, 2018 5:01 pm

Definetly +1

The output of the headset microphone is all we need on intercom out (prod and eng). Otherwise there's always a feedback!?
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pederdingo

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Re: Studio Fiber Converter not fully functional: no Tally or

PostFri Jun 15, 2018 3:51 pm

I've made a little setup to mitigate the 100% sidetone problem.
This will only work with ATEM switchers that has the talkback in/out XLRs.

I'm using a Teranex Mini Audio to SDI and a Teranex Mini 12G Distribution.

Basically I am embedding my own audio to the returns of the studio fiber converters.
That way only the camera audio comes out of the talkback out connector on the ATEM.

This also makes it easy to add a radio base station or other intercom system using the talkback in connector.

It might not be the prettiest setup, but I thought I'd share it anyway.

Image

Edit:
The camera ops' audio will be embedded to the AUX and PGM out of the ATEM - so you will hear the camera ops on a recording on ch. 15-16 which is a little annoying.
It would be nice if BM would add a functionality to only record 2 tracks of audio on the Hyperdecks.
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jensbreith

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Re: Studio Fiber Converter not fully functional: no Tally or

PostWed Jun 20, 2018 9:21 am

Hi everybody,

just q quick note, not really helpful anyway:
It seems like nobody from BMD is interesting in talking about this intercom behaviour.
And no positive feedback from the distibutor, there opinion is "Take it as it is - or leave it."

I have a workaround with external embedders and deembedders - which make the included 25Pin a bit obsolet except the tally - but that´s the only solution for the moment if you want to use that camera with non-BMD vision mixers and comm systems.

If there´s anybody out there with deeper communication with BMD directly let me know - I´d like to talk to someone who´s responsible at BMD to talk about their circuit design and wether they could and would change it or not.
I´ll not be happy selling the URSA broadcast infrastructure if it stays with what it is now...

Cheers

Jens
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MambaFiber.com

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Re: Studio Fiber Converter not fully functional: no Tally or

PostWed Jun 20, 2018 1:05 pm

BMDs intercom performance has always been lacking. I vote leave it. There are so many other working options available... Maybe if they can't sell any product they will finally make something better.
Greg Bellotte - owner
MambaFiber.com
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Knut Bussian

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Re: Studio Fiber Converter not fully functional: no Tally or

PostThu Jun 28, 2018 4:00 pm

This is what I got when asking BMD via email about a timescale on this issue:

We are aware of this behaviour when integrating third party 4 wire systems and the development team are currently investigating
This behaviour may be resolved in a future firmware update however I do not have a timescale for this at the moment

Regards

John

John Herbert
Broadcast Support Manager
Blackmagic Design EMEA



"may be resolved" and "future firmware update" make me shiver. I only hope that this will get fixed pretty soon, otherwise we'll always have to throw a $50 XLR cable along the $1000 SMPTE fiber line.

I don't actually go too crazy when I buy something for around $1500 and don't get all the features advertised (i.e. TC on the Atem 1 M/E).
I keep telling myself, "well, this is Blackmagic. It's darn cheap so don't expect too much." But now things are changing. A complete URSA Broadcast chain is around $10.000 without optics. We've got two of them. Adding a remote for shading like Skaarhoj's "Color Fly" and we hit $25.000.

I'm starting to get "a little uneasy", asking myself if I invested in the right gear. I've bought BMD gear since 2012 and know all this hassle about factory new parts which are DOA and the exchange takes weeks. This has gotten a lot better, even though one of our camera fiber converters was DOA. (Thanks to our German dealer we could work with one of his demo units for two weeks until the exchanged unit from BMD arrived.)

Well, I hope they are looking into this pretty soon. Otherwise, I have to look into leaving the BMD route...
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Xtreemtec

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Re: Studio Fiber Converter not fully functional: no Tally or

PostMon Jul 02, 2018 9:09 am

I strongly opt for a FIX from BMD to add a Sidetone control in the Fiber converters / Ursas.. Because the Ursa cameras also suffer from a huge Sidetone problem..

The Atem TVS HD has a Sidetone slider for there intercom to regulate how much the producer hears himself.. Why not put that also into the other end (Cameras / Fiber converters!!) This is a must if BMD want to break trough in the Broadcast Market! ;)
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV, ATEM TVS HD, 1M/E 4K, 2M/E Broadcast Studio 4K, Hyperdeck Studio Mini, SONY FS7 4K, Ursa Broadcast 4K

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