Dante AV announced...

Thought this community might be interested in the announcement of Dante AV by Audinate.

With Audinate's new chipset and dev boards, Dante is no longer an audio-only solution and one would expect to see some percentage of the 1600 licensed Dante audio vendors introduce a combined AV product in the coming months.

While not open source like AVB, Dante is the leading AoIP standard by virtue of the number of supporting vendors and have the potential to make in-roads in the video market. I do believe licensing is more expensive than Newtek's NDI solution which already has a large number of vendors itself.

That said, it might be more palatable for a vendor - say someone like Blackmagic who make switchers, etc that compete with Newtek - to go the Audinate Dante AV route. I'd love to see an ATEM 4K with integrated AV-over-IP support ingesting video from cameras with native AVoIP built-in or via small HDMI-to-IP dongles.

With Dante's significant vendor support in the audio space, Dante AV presents any opportunity to unify multichannel audio with video in locations (houses of worship, concert facilities, etc) where Dante-ready gear is already in use.

Here's hoping we see Blackmagic jump into networked AV with cameras, switchers, storage, etc in the near future (NAB 2019 perhaps?)

While i completely agree with you that NDI finally has a good competitor against it. And they will have to work hard for that to keep top place in the market.
I see a lot of potential in the Dante AV. IF they keep the price and licensing acceptable.
At this point the licensing of NDI on hardware is also payed! And Dante AV now bring out a building block for hardware engineers to drop in and work for them. Which is great!!

Newtek has not done this and is a bit closed about this. There might be some IP you might be able to license / buy if you are an FPGA developer like Birddog.

But Dante AV will need a software side too, if they want to be just as flexible as NDI. Some plugin that will interact with OBS, Vmix, Wirecast and others to be able to be used broad spectrum.

Also do not forget that NDI is able to pull several 4K streams trough 1x 1Gbit network line. While Dante AV will take up to 800Mbps for 1 stream. But uses a Loseless JPEG 2000 encoding, While NDI does a compression to manege multiple streams over 1Gbit.

While BMD still uses TICO (As partner of the TICO aliance) for there Video over IP. Which does a 4:1 compression but still pushes 3Gbps network data for 1x 4K stream. Which is too much to ever pull into a computer based system.
The SMPTE Fiber system for the Ursa is also based on some kind of network protocol as Grant sayed somewhere in the presentation of that product. So i guess we are still talking about TICO to run that show. Looking at the Studio Fiber converter, it has an SFP cage on the back side. So if somewhere in the future there would be some IP integration. I think we are looking into some Fiber Atem which will interact with an expensive Fiber network switch that is able to manage all that data..

But for now stay with both feet at the ground and let see how they play the market and who wins the final tug of competition.

Next week the ISE Amsterdam will be held and Dante is there.. So i will take a look and fire up some questions about end to end latency, Software PC side, module cost.. (But i know they don't want to talk cost before you sign a contract.. So i guess this will be no difference.)

According to the datasheet, it sounds like Dante AV doesn't actually mandate a particular video codec:
https://www.audinate.com/sites/default/ ... -v2-en.pdf

It seems like they have a kind of reference Dante AV implementation that supports FPGA-based JPEG2000 encoding, but the Dante AV module itself is supposedly codec-agnostic. I'm not really sure how different Dante AV implementations will interoperate with each other if they all use different codecs though.

It also looks like the 800 Mbps data rate is just a recommended limit in order to fit within the 1 Gb Ethernet of the Dante AV module. JPEG2000 supports both lossless and lossy compression so depending on the compression ratio used, a single HD video stream could use significantly less than 800 Mbps (at least with lossy compression).

The hardware and JPEG2000 implementation apparently support up to 4K60 resolution (using HDMI 2.0 input), but I'd think it would have to be using lossy encoding to fit into a 800 Mbps video stream at that resolution.

this is exciting news...video routable to multiple destinations over a common network like we do with Dante audio. But limiting the video bandwidth to 800Mbs pretty much says HD only, where's the luv for UHD? and the fact they are leaving the codec open to the end vendors makes me think about the VHS/Beta days all over again. great idea...BUT...seems like Audinate is leaving a door open to video but prob not going to support the final product as a whole.

So many attempts out there lately, hard to put down development. However, I still long for a truly simple device. 1in1out 12G video paths fiber muxed with a 1G/10G ethernet path over 2 fiber cores, or maybe even a single core. No expensive SMPTE connections. Package it as a v-mount device for battery power with a 12V XLR power in as well, with an internal 4-5 port POE switch and call it done. Call it inexpensive. Camera video with a return, and a few POE ports to plug in my Dante intercom/announcer belt packs/camera controller. Simple. Cost effective. Easy to bring to market. Hang it on ANY camera and away you go.

I hope Dante AV pans out into something usable, but I'd kill for the above TODAY. Especially for a $1000-ish price tag.

I hope Dante AV pans out into something usable, but I'd kill for the above TODAY.

How many years you want to serve county prison??

So many attempts out there lately, hard to put down development. However, I still long for a truly simple device. 1in1out 12G video paths fiber muxed with a 1G/10G ethernet path over 2 fiber cores, or maybe even a single core. No expensive SMPTE connections. Package it as a v-mount device for battery power with a 12V XLR power in as well, with an internal 4-5 port POE switch and call it done. Call it inexpensive. Camera video with a return, and a few POE ports to plug in my Dante intercom/announcer belt packs/camera controller. Simple. Cost effective. Easy to bring to market. Hang it on ANY camera and away you go.

Actually there is a platform that can do this. But it will be out in februari for 12G. (Now its 3G 6G still) And it is rather bulky yet.... But i think we will see something coming in the next year or so.

Magwell (Sorry BMD ) has a box lined up 6G to NDI and 4K60 HDMI to NDI that will hit the market very soon.
But if they can do 4K60 they should be able to do 12G also. Next week i'm at ISE and they are there too.. Will ask why they did not go for 12G straight away.
But it would be great if Dante, NDI, Ross, BMD does come with something like this, 12G in 12G out over 1Gbit network. Sure there is a lot of development going on in that market.. But everything needs time. And at this point we might want to go to fast.

Actually if Dante AV is not limited to a special codec it would be possible to do NDI over Dante too if Newtek and Audinate would allow it and develop a solution for this.

Cheers

Robert

There is the compression that NDI uses, but then also the transport. I would suppose, putting NDI compression in DanteAV technically could be done, but that wouldn't make it NDI compatible. Also, as of today there isn't a NewTek FPGA design to decode NDI in hardware, that is currently being worked on.

I see DanteAV as a completely different use case than NDI. It appears to me they are looking at distribution more than content creation when it comes to video.

However, mixing NDI and Dante together can already be done today with many software solutions. No waiting for the future is needed.

Kane Peterson
NewTek

What I'm hoping to see within a couple years are audio/video adapters similar to Audinate's own Dante AVIO adapters - currently audio-only.

The AVIO adapters are low-cost I/O devices for TX/RX of 1 or 2 channel audio on a Dante network. ($99 and $129 US respectively). I'd like to see an AVIO HDMI adapter in the $300 range with 4k30p support. The adapter would need a fast codec and I'd hope for H.265 compression. Might take a few years to get to this price point but I think we'll eventually get there.

The use-cases I'm most interested in are mobile recordings/broadcasts... outdoor events, small venues, house-of-worship... where 3 - 4 cameras and a small footprint Dante-enabled audio mixer are suitable.

Ingest is the bigger opportunity and it will be interesting to see if Audinate are able to achieve a software-only solution similar to the current DVS (Dante Virtual Soundcard) solution. DVS can ingest up to 32ch of Dante audio via standard 1Gb ethernet port on a computer.

I realize there are many factors at play in the transport / ingest of multiple streams of 4k video but there are potential solutions in a combination of faster CPU's and GPU's, faster PCI bus speeds, faster RAM, and higher bandwidth speeds. It won't be an inexpensive computer however it's not single purpose like a hardware video switcher. You could use the same computer for post-production for the use-cases I'm interested in.

I'm really interested to know if the new Mac Mini could be up to the task. 10Gb Ethernet is US $200 upgrade on the Mini and is compliant with Cat6 / Cat6e cabling (up to 55m / 100m respectively). On the switch side, 5-port 10Gb ethernet switches are available as low as US $110 - with the caveat that they need SFP+ to RJ-45 (e.g. Fiber to Twisted Pair Copper) port adapters to support Cat6 cables. These adapters are $40/port but I imagine it won't be too long before we see RJ-45 natively in a low-cost 10Gb switch.

Anyway, convergence of technology continues at a fast pace so I do think there's a decent chance of a super affordable 'prosumer' solution in the not too distant horizon. Here's hoping again that Dante AV accelerates that eventual reality

Hi All..
I recently discovered Dante, and busy with certification of Dante level 2, and over the last day or so I got an email from BMD about the new update to PocketCinema camera...

So I read the through the website and noticed there is no mention of Dante/Dante AV, and I am thinking, why not? What is the issue with Dante AV that BMD have not mentioned this as an option, then a google search "blackmagic design Dante AV" brought me to this forum thread...

From what I know about Dante/Dante AV it would make so much sense that this technology would be so useful in small to medium set ups, where you have 3, 4. 5 cameras, a couple of mics, maybe a couple of laptops for video, and a small set of BMD gear, that would all be connected and set via Dante controller..

This thread was from 2019, it is now end of May 2021.. and still not viable.. Yet both Audinate and BlackMagic are based in Australia.. Sure the JPEG2000 might be an issue in 2019, but 2 yrs later, and at least 2 years of uni classes have graduated since 2019, a few PHD's obtained...

Curious as to why BMD has not adopted/improved the breed of Dante AV so that we can use gigabit switches/POE and or fibre... Maybe it is still a work in progress or abandoned... Don't know, hope not...Confused yeah...

BMD have lot of job with new Atem MINI products .. no time for other Big Bros ..

You would think that actually the ATEM would be better for having Dante AV instead of not having it, given that Dante uses off the shelf network equipment, BMD equipment for the most part are used in rig a venue, produce, de-rig, move to new venue, re-rig, rinse repeat... So having gear that you set once and can forget, that uses cheap cat6 cable, or fibre, that is almost more available than string.. Would be a marriage in heaven..but no... something strange is going on..

As mentioned before in this tread.. Dante AV is 800Mbps and will take out almost your complete 1Gbps network.

And that is only for 1 stream.. Meaning if you want to do anything you need a heavy industrial switch that has a big heavy backplane.

BMD has been in this situation before with the Teranex Mini 12G IP. Based on Tico almost latency free.. But the product never really got spread into the market as it needed 1Gbps network for HD and 10G fiber if you wanted to push 12G 4K.

That combined with a lot of PTP clock issues in the network and the boxes taking forever to find and sync properly to each other and loosing connection.. Most of the time due to not proper configured networks. or other traffic in the network that brings problems.

So it wasn't the succes story they had hoped for..

While Dante AV looks good on paper, The implementation on hardware level lacks on multiple points as it wasn't designed with Broadcast in mind but it's really build around AV.. ( Were Extron , Crestron and Kramer are big )

For example it wont pass the ANC data that BMD uses for all there camera control. So BMD would need to completely re-invent there control system..

The BMD IP Video could still be a really useful product if they ever updated the firmware to fix the issues they were informed of several years ago. There were some really poor implementation issues (not registering streams, PTP on layer 2 rather than 3, no facility to change PTP domains etc) which mean that, on the network side, you basically have to work around the issues to get the things even working on anything more advanced than a basic network, and even then, it can be a real challenge. It could be a very useful box for some applications (particularly if you could assign two sources to the smart panel buttons 1 and 2) but there seems to have been near zero development since the release. It would also be useful to get a computer endpoint (like for NDI) but I'm not holding my breath.