Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

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Kamel

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Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostSat Aug 25, 2012 8:22 am

Hi,
It seems that Cineform is going to add support to Blackmagic Cinema Camera in the 1.3 version of their GoPro studio premium, which is in beta now as stated by David Newman. This will be a huge step forward in the BMCC workflow.
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carlomacchiavello

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostTue Aug 28, 2012 6:08 pm

with actual version of cineform you can use command line to convert DNG to cineform raw, i did it with a simple .bat file

"C:\Program Files (x86)\Cineform\Tools\DPX2CF.exe" c:\framesource\source\*.dng c:\framesource\sequence.avi -q3 -f23.976

you can found on cineform documentation every info you need about these parameters.

i played with some dng demo sequence of BMC and all work fine.
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Philipp

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostTue Aug 28, 2012 9:20 pm

Is there any quality loss working with Cineform RAW compared to Cinema DNG? Does Resolve 9 support Coneform RAW and do you still have access too all of the RAW settings?
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Alex Primes

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostTue Oct 22, 2013 5:50 am

Here: viewtopic.php?uid=13809&f=2&t=630&start=0#p89419

RAW 2 CF RAW converts DNGs to CineformRAW, and automatically merges audio.
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Thomas Schumacher

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostTue Oct 22, 2013 7:06 am

Just a heads up for RAW 2 CF RAW - only 72hrs left on indygogo:

http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/convert-raw-image-sequences-to-cineform-with-advanced-gui

Just 19 $ - please join you willing masses! :-)
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Matthew Silver

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostTue Oct 22, 2013 1:00 pm

This is Windows only right now though, isn't it?

Matthew
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Thomas Schumacher

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostTue Oct 22, 2013 7:50 pm

g14matthew wrote:This is Windows only right now though, isn't it?

Matthew


Yes, they say
Windows OS (no Mac version at this point
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Thomas Schumacher

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostTue Oct 29, 2013 5:48 pm

Since their indygogo-campaign wasn't successfull, they're tyring again on kickstarter:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/pri ... video-fast

I wrote the author and suggested to release it as shareware and he might get a faster and bigger revenue than with such a campaign, but he didn't reply so far.
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Alex Primes

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostTue Nov 19, 2013 4:22 am

Since the last post here, RAW 2 CF RAW version 1 was made, tested, and released. Works great, merges audio automatically.
Last edited by Alex Primes on Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Mark Davies

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostTue Nov 19, 2013 9:02 am

How much is it and does it do BMD pocket compressed raw?
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Alex Primes

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostTue Nov 19, 2013 4:07 pm

Mark, for detailed info click here - RAW 2 CF RAW page.

RAW 2 CF RAW does video conversions that your copy of Cineform currently supports, plus audio merge, plus Time Code, and more.
Last edited by Alex Primes on Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Lee Mackreath

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostWed Nov 20, 2013 7:47 am

Mark2929 wrote:How much is it and does it do BMD pocket compressed raw?


no it does not support bmpcc compressed cinemadng
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Alex Primes

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostMon Nov 25, 2013 1:30 am

Does now!

RAW 2 CF RAW successfully converted BMPCC's Compressed DNG raw sequences in our beta tests starting Nov 21st.
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Nate Ayres

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostThu Jan 16, 2014 9:20 pm

Small bump here.

I'm trying to use RAW 2 CF RAW (now RAW 4 PRO) to convert Black Magic CinemaDNGs to Cineform. It works, but I can't get the Cineform footage to match the CinemaDNG footage in Resolve.

Original DNGs, no LUT (forgive the crappy test frame):
Image

Cineform converted video with RAW 4 PRO, no LUT:
Image

These are both screen captures from inside Resolve. I know an exact match should be possible because this guy over at similaar.com/foto/blackmagic-workflow/index.html got an exact color match... but I don't know what I could be doing wrong. Help? :?
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Alex Primes

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostThu Jan 16, 2014 10:05 pm

Hi, Resolve does not seem to treat CineformRAW as raw; rather, it treats it like CineformHD. So if you applied a LUT in FirstLight or Studio, it will be discarded/lost on import to Resolve.

Also, the Camera RAW options are not available in Resolve for Cineform files, as far as I know.

However, Resolve does have an awesome debayering of its own that is probably at least as good as ACR.

So you might want to simply grade your Cineform RAW clip in Resolve; then export settings as LUT from Resolve, and later apply that LUT to all your Cineform clips at once.

How to apply LUT in Resolve: right-click on clip, scroll down to No LUT - 1D - 3D LUTs and apply the one you made, or the existing one you like. Try the included Blackmagic one, for example.
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Alex Primes

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostThu Jan 16, 2014 10:19 pm

Nice cat, by the way!

General note on Cineform. I'm a huge fan for years. However, not sure if it fits perfectly in this workflow just because it is RAW.

As you discovered, you have to grade it - and usual tools like ACR/Resolve won't work on it automatically.
You need to pay the license fee to have it.
At some point you have to debayer it, and its decoder (at any setting) is not as great as ACR, for example.
CineformRAW is compressed, which means it discards data - which is kind of its point, you get it to have compressed RAW that still looks good. But for our workflow, it may translate in "not good enough for final render". And as proxy, it is just not as convenient as DNxHD that now comes with RAW 4 PRO, free.
Again, I'd like to assure everyone I'm not diminishing Cineform in any way - it is great and has its place. Just not sure it is the best option as either proxy or main format for RAW camera workflow originated with DNG sequences.

I'd say, keep your original DNG sequences; use RAW 4 PRO to make DNxHD proxy (free, 4:2:2, already debayered to REC 709 so looks "normal" right away - yet file sizes on par with CineformRAW, good enough for a convincing render and certainly for proxy editing), edit that proxy in your NLE in real-time, then export EDL to Resolve and then "online" it with your original DNG clips and grade/render from Resolve. Voila, perfect quality while painless edit in post.
Last edited by Alex Primes on Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Christian Horne

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostThu Jan 16, 2014 10:44 pm

I created a Log look inside of Cineform which converts all the CineRAW to a very flat look. I then grade footage inside After Effects as though it was the ProRes film Log that comes out of the BMCC. It is easier to grade this way because grading with the flat look is intuitive. I also have a light graded LUT in cineform with I construct my edit with as to give me a better idea of how thing look. I have pixel peeped and compared CineRAW with the DNG and to be honest visually there is no real difference in quality (I'm not talking about previewing in large cinema screens) and the beauty is you keep all options open in CineRAW and you get to keep the 2.4k res.

My workflow is this....

Shoot in RAW from the BMCC
Load the SSD into the caddy
Convert the DNGs to Cineform RAW (This saves disk space on the PC)
apply the light look LUT to the CineForm footage
playback the footage in windows classic media player
Import files into Premiere pro and edit (CineRAW uses less ram than ProRes on the timeline)
Lock edit and bring the project into After Effects
apply the Film LOG LUT in Cineform
Grade as normal.

All the information is still there in the Cineform file if ever you need to tweek the image before or after grading, and the files are small enough to archive after the edit ;)
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Alex Primes

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostFri Jan 17, 2014 12:31 am

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Nate Ayres

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostFri Jan 17, 2014 3:38 am

Thanks for the help guys 8-)

I'm aiming for the same type of workflow as Christian... I want to be able to keep the RAW capability of the DNG files but with the much smaller filesize and realtime editing capability of CinemaRAW.

I too can't really tell a quality difference on the higher encoding settings... and once Cineform improves their debayering algorithms and Resolve unlocks metadata editing and interprets the files correctly... it'll be pretty much perfect.

For now though, I guess I'll have to wait it out, or apply a custom LUT to undo the greenish tint and underexposure.
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Nate Ayres

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostFri Jan 17, 2014 7:18 pm

After another day of hammering out my pipeline, I've now hit upon something that should work for me. Sharing here because I had to snag bits and pieces from all over the web to put this together.

SETUP:
- Install this patch in C:\Program Files (x86)\CineForm\Tools (replace the existing dll)
EDIT: ORIGINAL GOPRO HOSTED LINK HAS BEEN REMOVED, IDENTICAL FILE HERE:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/y0qkt ... oder64.zip

STEP 1: CONVERT DNGS TO CINEFORM
  • Start GoPro, import your DNGs
  • In Advanced Settings, set the File Format to MOV (seems to have better compatibility then AVI), Quality to FilmScan 1 (or FilmScan 2 if you must) and Encoding Curve to Protune. Decoding Curve leave to Match Encode cause we will be changing it.
  • Convert your files to Cineform

STEP 2: GRADE
  • Open Resolve and leave GoPro Studio so you have them side-by-side
  • Import your Cineform files, and your DNGs if you want to check a match, slap them on a timeline and switch over to Color
  • Go back to GoPro Studio and switch to Edit mode
  • Don't bother dragging anything to the timeline, apply these settings to your clip(s):
Input Curve: Protune
Output Curve: Cineon 95-685
Demosaic Type: Your Choice
Color Matrix: Source
Exposure: 2 (may have to adjust depending on the clip)
Saturation: 0.5

Switch back over to Resolve. Your Cineform footage should auto-update thanks to the patch you installed earlier. Now your Cineform files and your DNGs should be almost perfectly matched.

Original BMCC Cinema DNGs
Image

CineformRAW graded in GoPro Studio
Image

Now you can apply LUTs and grade in Resolve as normal =]
Last edited by Nate Ayres on Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Christian Horne

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostFri Jan 17, 2014 8:51 pm

Thats the exact same setting I use for my LOG look Cineform Files ;)
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Alex Primes

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostFri Jan 17, 2014 9:06 pm

What happens if you grade Cineform video file *prior* to opening it in Resolve - will it retain the GoPro Studio-applied settings or not?
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Nate Ayres

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostMon Jan 20, 2014 4:20 pm

You must grade the footage in GoPro Studio, but Resolve doesn't have to be open at the the same time you do that. And once graded, GoPro Studio no longer needs to be open when you use Resolve.
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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostMon Jan 20, 2014 4:53 pm

The problem with cineform is its own debayering. It´s just, sorry to say, not very good.
When you convert DNGs to cineform and import it in resolve, the quality/detail is perfect but it´s just not really supported. Alle green, no raw tab, no log mode...

If cineform RAW was fully supported by Resolve, they would have an incredible boost of demand! And with Open CL it should be possible, shouldn´t it?

...or they vastly improve their own debayer.
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Alex Primes

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostMon Jan 20, 2014 7:32 pm

What Felix said.

AFAIK normally, Resolve uses it own debayering when dealing with CineformRAW.

With the CF Resolve Path mentioned: I'd be interested to see how the Patch affects debayering. Since it imposes CF grading in Resolve, does it also impose CF debayering in Resolve?
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Felix Steinhardt

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostTue Jan 21, 2014 8:03 pm

yes, unfortunately. It´s then debayered by the cineform software and sent to resolve.

Do it BMD and GoPro/Cineform! Implement it in Resolve and give us RAW-Power with the filesizes of ProRes!
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Nate Ayres

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostTue Jan 21, 2014 9:32 pm

The change itself is extremely minor. Resolve treats CineformRAW files like CineformHD files... locking off access to the White Balance, Exposure, and other metadata controls.

All Black Magic needs to do is specify that CineformRAW files be treated differently then CineformHD and boom... Resolve's own superior debayering AND access to all metadata controls in-program.

I'm optimistic that this will happen eventually, especially if we all make noise about it!
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Alex Primes

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostTue Jan 21, 2014 10:32 pm

natedgreat3 wrote:The change itself is extremely minor. Resolve treats CineformRAW files like CineformHD files... locking off access to the White Balance, Exposure, and other metadata controls.

All Black Magic needs to do is specify that CineformRAW files be treated differently then CineformHD and boom... Resolve's own superior debayering AND access to all metadata controls in-program.

I'm optimistic that this will happen eventually, especially if we all make noise about it!


YES! That'd be great.

In Resolve, I don't care for the export in CF RAW, but *importing* into Resolve must treat CineformRAW as any other RAW format.
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Jules Bushell

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostWed Jan 22, 2014 4:42 am

natedgreat3 wrote:The change itself is extremely minor. Resolve treats CineformRAW files like CineformHD files... locking off access to the White Balance, Exposure, and other metadata controls.

All Black Magic needs to do is specify that CineformRAW files be treated differently then CineformHD and boom... Resolve's own superior debayering AND access to all metadata controls in-program.

I'm optimistic that this will happen eventually, especially if we all make noise about it!

Correct me if I am wrong but that won't work?
I assume that Cineform decoder is debayering on the fly and presenting to Resolve RGB bits, and Resolve doesn't understand Cineform's compressed RAW format anyway.

Also isn't white balance, exposure etc. already in Cineform Studio. What I think is missing is the recovery highlights.

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Christian Horne

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostWed Jan 22, 2014 7:22 am

Recover Highlights is there in Cineform Studio, its the 'SAT.CLIP PT slider' ;)
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Alex Primes

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostWed Jan 22, 2014 8:32 am

Like natedgreat3 said, the question is in the quality of Cineform debayering.

The thinking goes, if CineformRAW was accepted as actual raw in Resolve and debayered by Resolve itself, everyone would be better off, it seems.
Last edited by Alex Primes on Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostWed Jan 22, 2014 9:03 am

Also don't lose sight of what you final out will be, if the material target will be web based or for TV work then Cineforms RAW quality is more that capable, I was at a Post Production house yesterday in Manchester watching an online edit for the BBC, and I was shocked really at the quality of the footage, I was so used to seeing footage now from the BMCC. For me Cineform works because I can edit on the timeline in real time in full HD, this is what it was designed for, if you want pristine footage and a slow work flow you use RAW DNG ;)
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Alex Primes

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostWed Jan 22, 2014 10:04 am

Actually we can have our DNG and eat it, too.

Shoot in DNG; make CineformRAW (or DNxHD) proxy in RAW 4 PRO; edit that proxy in any NLE; lock edit, then export EDL.

Import EDL into Resolve and "online" back to the original DNGs.

Voila - easy edit with smaller files (and you can render from CF RAW too if you like!) - yet you can always fall back on the DNGs for pristine output if needed.
Last edited by Alex Primes on Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostSun Mar 09, 2014 3:47 am

BTW does it have to be Resolve?

1. DNG to CineformRAW via RAW 4 PRO, with LUT applied
2. Edit in your favorite NLE in real-time. Lock the edit, export EDL.
3. Import EDL to After Effects. "Online" back to the original DNG clips, with ACR debayering (joy!)
4. Make all grading adjustments, then and export from After Effects. Pristine quality.

Bada-bim!
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Alex Primes

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostWed Aug 06, 2014 6:36 am

...and now, BM4K RAW!
Last edited by Alex Primes on Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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carlomacchiavello

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostFri Oct 17, 2014 8:43 am

my Thumb Up for Raw4kPro
i'm an happy user of this software. Work fine, faster and well designed.
Great communication with developer.
He's a great person.
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Subrata Senn

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostFri Oct 17, 2014 7:38 pm

carlomacchiavello wrote:my Thumb Up for Raw4kPro
i'm an happy user of this software. Work fine, faster and well designed.
Great communication with developer.
He's a great person.


Not, if you are working on Mac. And unless Resolve recognises CineformRaw as Raw.
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carlomacchiavello

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostSun Oct 19, 2014 7:33 pm

i'm under mac and win, and CF and r4P work fine with paralles emulation.
if i use cineform raw, i no need to color working under davinci, i work fine with after effects and colorista, when i need to work under davinci i relink with drag and drop original dng ONLY for clip that need to be manipulated like dng and not have enought gamma from cineform raw.
ps if davinci is an island that not use os decoding is not a cineform fault, but davinci fault... all app see cf raw and its active metadata, only davinci decode it in wrong way.

anyway another way to do a good cineform DI is to load on aftereffects with batch workflow and export a simple CF not raw.
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Alex Primes

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostTue Oct 21, 2014 3:32 am

All RAW footage processed with RAW 4 PRO on the thriller film project. Sundance sent a waiver (invite) for this film! Also, an official selection of NoHu Film Festival. The film is called Monster.
Last edited by Alex Primes on Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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carlomacchiavello

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostTue Jan 13, 2015 12:24 am

update for cineform
buy the color profile from :
http://www.vision-color.com/bmdfilm/ 15$
use aftereffects to preprocess shooting
export in cineform (actually like DI is just avaible in AfterEffects and Premiere due according with Adobe-Cineform) than you can have quality of bm curve, dng original quality, easy and lightness of Cineform
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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

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Alex Primes

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostSun Jan 10, 2016 11:15 am

Just released RAW 4 PRO v5.1
Last edited by Alex Primes on Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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carlomacchiavello

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostSun Jan 10, 2016 7:36 pm

Alex Primes wrote:Just released RAW 4 PRO v5.1 with improvements and low-cost options. Free demo: http://Raw4pro.com

An excellent product :-D
i can tell you like happy user of Raw4Pro.
with it, with a simple click i can :
- backup of my footage
- creation of dailies with my luts
- creation of raw cineform for editing and more...
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Alex Primes

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostMon Nov 13, 2017 10:13 pm

OK folks, here's the brand-new EASY edition of RAW 4 PRO.

Advantages: floating license, NO Internet connection requirement, NO registration, and NO more being tied up to a particular PC - install/re-install and run as many of these converters on your network as you like!

I am both the developer and user of this software.

http://XactCopi.com
Last edited by Alex Primes on Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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robert Hart

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostTue Nov 14, 2017 12:24 pm

Hello again Alex.


Does your cineform interface still cope with the old SI2K files of the .avi flavour or have the .avi to .mov converter?

Does cineform hit a wall at 4K or does it go beyond.

I became a turncoat and entered the Blackmagic biosphere. I needed to future-proof a film project which is yet incompletely written and relies on a sail training ship. The vessel was undergoing a deep maintenance and was rendered into visually derelect state, exactly as depicted in the film story. So I bought into the original URSA at a cheap price and built a NIkon/Speedbooster adaptor for it.
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Alex Primes

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostTue Nov 14, 2017 1:05 pm

Hello Bob,

SI2K is already Cineform RAW so there's nothing to convert...

RAW 4 PRO does convert RAW DNG (or JPG time-lapse) sequences to Cineform RAW/debayered accordingly, among other codec outputs. Yes, one could choose whether to export in .avi or .mov Cineform out of RAW 4 PRO / Easy.

More here: http://www.xactcopi.com/RAW-4-PRO-usage ... s_b_6.html

- just scroll down to the Cineform section.

Best!
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robert Hart

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostWed Nov 15, 2017 5:28 am

Alex.


Some really old SI2K .avi files and Premiere Pro CS6 plus GoPro Studio are a bit antagonistic. Apparently if you reconvert them they behave. It might just be my incompetence in the mix.

My original computer with older Premiere Pro and Prospect/Neo did both flavours fine. Then it died due to those bad capacitors the Koreans ripped off a Japanese design for that some motherboard manufacturers kept quiet about.

I used an older computer for a while but got sick and tired of counting frames film-style because it would not play back in real time.

Going back to a DOS command line for the conversions was a bit of a challenge. It did my brain good in a use it or lose it sort of way re-learning the few rules I remembered from DOS3.2 ( the customised Olivetti flavour ).

It is a bit of a shame that SI/P+S Technik did not do a 2K 24mm approx. sensor but their cost-benefit horse was pretty much shot in the head with RED. BM seems to have taken up the baton. I understand maybe wrongly that the original 4K was a machine-vision sensor.
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carlomacchiavello

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostWed Nov 15, 2017 10:11 am

robert Hart wrote:Hello again Alex.


Does your cineform interface still cope with the old SI2K files of the .avi flavour or have the .avi to .mov converter?

Does cineform hit a wall at 4K or does it go beyond.

I became a turncoat and entered the Blackmagic biosphere. I needed to future-proof a film project which is yet incompletely written and relies on a sail training ship. The vessel was undergoing a deep maintenance and was rendered into visually derelect state, exactly as depicted in the film story. So I bought into the original URSA at a cheap price and built a NIkon/Speedbooster adaptor for it.


Hi Robert
you can download the trial of old cineform premium or pro
http://cineform.com/legacy-downloads

and in the utility hdlink you can found a tool to rewrap .avi to .mov cineform raw files, without recompression and without long conversion time.

keep in mind trial is 5 or 7 day then you install when you have time to do that conversion, all conversion in one time. unfortunately this the branch of developing missing in gopro way.
i hope now that cineform is opensource many tool born to support and give him new life, like Raw4Pro do
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Alex Primes

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostMon Dec 04, 2017 3:02 pm

Use RAW 4 PRO to easily convert Cinema DNG sequences to either CineformRAW, or ProRes, or DNxHD, or H264 - depending on your goals.

I'm the developer of RAW 4 PRO. The software has been a workhorse of many people in the RAW video field for a couple years now, it has a solid 5-star rating.

Although R4P EASY is normally selling for $125 or $110 after a discount, I'm now offering it to BlackMagic Forum readers for just $29. Use code bm81off. (Offers ends shortly without prior notice, sorry.)

Free trial also available at http://XactCopi.com

Thanks for reading.
XactCopi.com
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Tristan Pemberton

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Re: Cinema DNG to Cineform RAW

PostWed Dec 06, 2017 10:10 pm

Alex Primes wrote:Use RAW 4 PRO to easily convert Cinema DNG sequences to either CineformRAW, or ProRes, or DNxHD, or H264 - depending on your goals.

I'm the developer of RAW 4 PRO. The software has been a workhorse of many people in the RAW video field for a couple years now, it has a solid 5-star rating.

Although R4P EASY is normally selling for $125 or $110 after a discount, I'm now offering it to BlackMagic Forum readers for just $29. Use code bm81off. (Offers ends shortly without prior notice, sorry.)

Free trial also available at http://XactCopi.com

Thanks for reading.

Any plans to support Mac users?
Director
Australia
www.flywirefilms.com
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