Stefan Markworth wrote:John Brawley wrote:I personally never get caught by this.
John I remember you saying something similar about the moire issues on the BMCC. The moire on clothing actually is a serious problem for anyone who owns that camera, who films people wearing clothes and any other textures similar to the weave of fabric, and who has waited patiently, possibly years, to buy an OLPF from Mosaic Engineering.
OK, let's break it down.
Here are the TV Drama series I've worked on that have used BMD cameras.
Puberty Blues Season 1 and 2 (17 eps)
Offspring Season 5 (13 eps)
Offspring Season 6 (13 eps)
Hiding Season 1 (8 eps)
Party Tricks Season 1 (6 eps)
Underbelly Squizzy (6 eps)
Hunters (13 eps)
The Beautiful Lie (6 eps)
Beaches (Telemovie)
The Warriors ( all 100% BMD camearas )
Queen Of The South (13 eps) (at least 30% of this is BMD)
So that's more than 90 hours of BROADCAST TV Drama.
If I say that I haven't been caught by moire from a BMD camera, I'm speaking about that from the perspective of having used these cameras on the above series. One of those series, Puberty Blues, is set in 1975. If there was ever going to be an issue it would be that show.
In the last few years I have had serious problems with moire on one show, where it was bad enough to fail a tech check.
It was for a series called "Hiding". The moire was so bad, we had to do a very expensive post fix to try and minimise the problem. There were problematic shots in most episodes. Would you be surprised to hear though, that all the moire problem shots were shot with a Sony F55.
The Sony F55 HAS an OLPF. (in fact it has two options ) And yet moire was a problem.
Stefan Markworth wrote:James Adams clearly wrote;
James Adams wrote:What is disappointing for us, is this is happening with a variety of clothing types, and on clothes that don't have any visible fine patterns. I've many more examples and moire is over all the clothing, but I've magnified a couple specific areas.
John Brawley wrote:It's also a HIGHLY subjective process.
Is it really? Do you consider the images that James Adams and Joseph McDonald have posted in this thread, and the moire in them, as desirable let alone acceptable?
You're misrepresenting what I was saying.
The process of designing a filter to remove moire to everyone's satisfaction is a highly subjective process.
You're bitching about it waiting years for Moasiac to produce an after market OLPF filter. Why do you think that it's taken them so long ?
Designing an OLPF is a highly subjective process. You have to trade off image sharpness against reducing moire. It's not a simple "whack a OLPF" filter in and you're done.
You have to come up with a formula that works on multiple focal lengths, with multiple frequencies of texture, across different lens and shooting apertures
It's a known truism that your diffusion filter should change when using beauty diffusion in front of the lens with focal length. As you go longer, you tend to need stronger or heavier diffusion, and as you go wider, you tend to use less.
To design a filter that can cover all those scenarios and not just trash the whole image is what's hard. It requires a highly iterative manufacturing process of making a certain formula, trying it out, evaluating SUBJECTIVELY if you're loosing too much and then adjusting the formula and making a new sample and starting again.
I'm not as all denying that you will get moire and that in certain scenarios it won't bite you in the arse.
I was saying that to get a good solution that works in every scenario is next to impossible. For every user that has a OLPF setting that makes them happy for moire, there will be users that don't want to loose that level of sharpness. It's a variable scale, not a YES / NO scenario. By reducing sharpness you reduce the chance of moire. The more you reduce the sharpness, the less chance you have of moire.
I've had problems with a camera that had a factory designed OLPF, the Sony F55 I mentioned earlier.
RED have had major problems with their OLPFs, constantly. And they still suffer Moire with an OLPF too. Feel free to go look on REDUSER and search using the same parameters. I'm in pre now for a new series for FOX and something I've experienced with set decorators and costume designers many times is the look of relief when you tell them you aren't shooting RED. Because they hate having to design fabrics and design patterns around moire too.
I am sympathetic, but the solution isn't really as perfect you're think it is.
Stefan Markworth wrote:John Brawley wrote:And for as many that say they don't want moire, there are as many that will say they want maximum sharpness.
Yes, the question of what is an acceptable level sharpness is a subjective issue, however there is nothing subjective about moire artifacts on clothing. What type of cinematographer chooses hyper sharpness and is OK with the resulting moire artifacts on clothing? Maybe they are shooting landscapes and naked people.
Once again, I have many hours of broadcast TV, including a whole entire TV drama series that says otherwise. I guess I'm they type of cinematographer you're trying to sledge ?
That is the truth of my experience.
Stefan Markworth wrote:John Brawley wrote: It's taken Mosaic YEARS to get to where they are now and they are still refining it.
Yes I know. I quickly discovered the moire on clothing fabric after buying my BMCC in early 2013. Within weeks I wrote to Mosaic Engineering asking them to tell me when I could buy an OLPF from them. I wasn't able to get an OLPF from them until June 2016. Do I wish I had bought a different camera in early 2013 that didn't have clothing moire issues, yes.
You're ignoring what I've already said. It can take years to perfect a good OLPF. That's how long it takes. It's self evident that the company that specialises in making them took so long to make one.
Stefan Markworth wrote:John Brawley wrote:They have made it possible to allow a after market OLPF's for those that feel they need it, but there really hasn't been the demand for BMD to release one, or I'm pretty sure they would have done one by now.
There have been numerous threads in this forum about the problems of moire on BMD cameras. In this forum "Moire" has been written at least 873 times and there are 18 pages listing links to threads where the word appears. The problems of BMD cameras with moire also appear in may posts and articles elsewhere.
No doubt. Go do the same search please on REDUSER and come back and tell me the same numbers.
I'm not saying it isn't an issue that comes up. But in reality, depending on the style of shooting, if it really was the BBQ stopper that you're inferring it is, I'm pretty sure no one would be using the cameras, they wouldn't get to be releasing new models that seem to still be selling very well.
Do the cameras suffer Moire ? Yes.
Is it a showstopper ? That's only something each individual can answer.
Stefan Markworth wrote:What is BMD thinking? They either test the camera and see the moire on clothing and say, "oh that doesn't matter hopefully no one notices, at least the image is hyper sharp" or worse still they don't pick it up in tests and don't realise how much of a problem it really is, until customers test their finished cameras for them.
Ultimately I don't think it helps BMD make plans for their camera designs if people down play genuine serious issues with their cameras.
Whenever I think about a digital video camera that causes Moire on the fabric of clothing in its footage, I can't believe just how ridiculous that is. It shouldn't have been and issue in 2012-2013 and it is definitely an issue that should have been resolved four years later in BMD's newer cameras.
Isn't it better to have the choice ? You're preaching an OLPF for everyone, but I don't think everyone feels the same. Philosophically, in digital stills cameras for the last few years the trend is to NOT have an OLPF and to deal with moire by other means.
Some people even remove their OLPF in other cameras
http://blog.planet5d.com/2012/04/does-t ... i-sharper/I think having a choice is better. It just means you have to wait a little longer for your OLPF pure version because that's a reflection of how difficult it is to make these things.
Also, we've only been talking about the Mosaic VAF, but Hans Hijmering makes a version too for some cameras.
http://mattscottvisuals.com/blog/2016/7 ... taminationYou can get in touch with him directly here
http://hanshijmering.com/contact/I haven't ever felt the need to get an OLPF for my BMD cameras. Clearly you feel differently. I don't think it's as cut and tried as you're implying. I just don't see moire happening in my work with these cameras, and by the way, my work has to pass pretty rigorous broadcast tech checks. That isn't just my subjective opinion. It's just not in the work I'm shooting. It just doesn't come up.
Yes we don't want moire, but many of us don't want dramatically less sharpness either and if the tradeoff is to occasionally get moire, then I think a lot of people are OK with that.
jb