4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

Well I read Grants post here...viewtopic.php?f=2&t=61288

The news I gathered is that they are still working on the Turret and will never know when they will be satisfied with the outcome. So we just have to be patience for now. And by the way, if you need a 4.6K option, you can take advantage of the loyalty discount for URSA owners.

I think the man does not understand that most original owners of the URSA has sold theirs by now and those who bought the URSA From the original owners, who are legit current owners, who want or need a 4.6K does not qualify for the loyalty upgrade. If there are loyal URSA owners waiting for the Turret, they are the ones who currently own a used URSA. So the upgrade business does not work for all URSA "current" owners. If it did, they maybe the current owners who need a 4.6K will yield to the UMP.

Ditto on that one. I'm sure there are owners who took the upgrade that don't even own the camera anymore.

And the legal argument is the ONLY reason the turret is still alive. That I'm sure of. Petty would have scrapped it if not for the legal implications.

Alright, let's get some clarity "from the top" (Grant) on whether the Mini Pro 4.6K loyalty upgrade program has been extended to any and all URSA major owners. We (the secondary owners) are the same people who are interested in a 4.6K option (turret or Mini Pro). And, for those who are into the legalities of it all, any owners of an URSA major can easily make the case that they relied (legally important) on the official ongoing promises of a turret upgrade in making their purchase.

So BMD, does the loyalty upgrade program apply to any owner of an URSA major?

Not sure that's totally fair to Grant. I believe he's motivated also by a high degree of integrity so it isn't always personally acceptable to renege on a promise if there's any chance that persistence will eventually be rewarded.


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I totally respect Mr. Grant Petty and would not second guess him. I believe he is full of integrity when he takes the high road and will not release the turret until it lives up to his expectations. As much as we all would love to see a turret shipping now isn't that what we as customers want as well a product that is held to high standards where the bar is set high?

My only question if they are committed to the turrets why did they stop shipping the URSA V1 or V2? They must still be uncertain that they can pull off the turret.

Not sure that's totally fair to Grant. I believe he's motivated also by a high degree of integrity so it isn't always personally acceptable to renege on a promise if there's any chance that persistence will eventually be rewarded.


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I'm trying to be respectful on the forum, Rick and saying as little as possible. The turret would have been scrapped if not for the consequences. I'm not saying Grant Petty doesn't want it to happen. I believe he does. I'm not saying he lacks integrity. I'm saying he runs a business and if the profit margin isn't there, and it will not be there for the turret, it would be easier to let it go. The UMP is being pushed because they want current URSA owners to go THAT route instead of the turret. The only way they can make money off the turret is to charge way more than $2,000, but then people may not buy it. That would defeat the original purpose of having an upgradable sensor so you don't have to purchase a new camera.

That said, as I said before, getting higher frame rates from the current 4.6k sensor is a win for owners and the company. It extends the life of the sensor for other cameras without having to develop a new sensor. That makes sense and that is what was communicated to me during my phone call.

This is not the case... it has not been discontinued.

I am working on getting you an update from the top.

That is a good news Tim, thank you for the update.

I'm not going to weigh in on the politics anymore, my emotion has gone for this subject, I appreciate the extension of the offer and just want to voice that I still definitely want a turret!

I took the upgrade to the mini pro for the lower cost and still have the original v1 URSA. I would advise anyone thinking of the upgrade to do the same if for no other reason than to try out the new sensor and know it's for you.

As long as you bought your URSA whether 2nd hand or not and the serial number has not already been used to upgrade you should be able to take the offer.

I'm still getting a nice filmic image from the original URSA and can find how to fit it in to my workflow without the upgrade.

If you think of it in terms of r&d or research and design at any tech company, evaluating a sensor every 3-4 months for the possible upgrade is actually pretty reasonable. BMD just jumped the gun and announced too early.

As long as you bought your URSA whether 2nd hand or not and the serial number has not already been used to upgrade you should be able to take the offer.

This is incorrect. Only the original owners who purchased the URSA directly from the retailer can take advantage of the upgrade offer. I wished it is the case as you stated because I bought my URSA 2nd hand with all the transfer papers from the original owner and the serial number has not been used to upgrade by the original owner but I am unable to get the loyalty discount. So I am pointing out that your statement today is NOT correct.

Ellory,

I had bought from B&H and then processed the upgrade through B&H. Who was the retailer who sold the URSA that you own? Is this the official position from Blackmagic or the retailer you are trying to go through?

As long as you bought your URSA whether 2nd hand or not and the serial number has not already been used to upgrade you should be able to take the offer.

This is incorrect. Only the original owners who purchased the URSA directly from the retailer can take advantage of the upgrade offer. I wished it is the case as you stated because I bought my URSA 2nd hand with all the transfer papers from the original owner and the serial number has not been used to upgrade by the original owner but I am unable to get the loyalty discount. So I am pointing out that your statement today is NOT correct.

This is 100% incorrect.

If it comes it comes. If it doesn't it doesn't. As the owner of a pre-owned big URSA v1 for which the serial has been used for the UMP upgrade, I fall outside of the upgrade offer for the UMP.

For the time being, I am having a shot at building a custom barrel for a Metabones Speedbooster 0.7 "ultra" optical cell. There is enough real estate to do this within the big URSA, maybe the URSA Mini 4K but maybe not the original 4K cinema camera.

Enquiries to Metabones to see if they will sell the optical cell direct have yielded no reply. So to get the optical cell for a DIY, for a reasonable price, you have to scour the internet for used specimens.

One remains wedlocked to the 4K sensor but should be able to have near to the field of view conferred by the 4.6K sensor with the remaining bonus of global shutter.

Ellory,

I had bought from B&H and then processed the upgrade through B&H. Who was the retailer who sold the URSA that you own? Is this the official position from Blackmagic or the retailer you are trying to go through?

Ryan, if you read closely my reply, I did not buy it from the retailer. I bought it from someone who is the original owner. The original owner bought it from B&H. The original owner did not purchase the upgrade UMP. The original owner gave me all original receipt and signed a notarized transfer of ownership to me. When contacted B&H they said I do not qualify based on the rules from Blackmagic that only the original owner can get the UMP upgrade. So your statement that as long as "the URSA serial number has not been used by the original owner to take the upgrade that the 2nd hand owner can get the upgrade" is incorrect.

Ellory,

I had bought from B&H and then processed the upgrade through B&H. Who was the retailer who sold the URSA that you own? Is this the official position from Blackmagic or the retailer you are trying to go through?

Ryan, if you read closely my reply, I did not buy it from the retailer. I bought it from someone who is the original owner. The original owner bought it from B&H. The original owner did not purchase the upgrade UMP. The original owner gave me all original receipt and signed a notarized transfer of ownership to me. When contacted B&H they said I do not qualify based on the rules from Blackmagic. So your statement that as long as the URSA serial number has not been used by the original owner to take the upgrade that the 2nd hand owner can get the upgrade is incorrect.

I'm telling you, you are 100% incorrect here. I highly suggest you contact someone else at BM or you can keep complaining on here, your choice.

Ellory, if that was your experience with B&H Photo, I'd ask to speak to the Sales Manager in charge. I'd take Vic's advice and contact your BMD Support. They may offer to contact B&H Photo on your behalf.


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Ellory it's simple ..if the original owner was willing to give you a notarized transfer of ownership. Then the communication is there for you to ask the original owner to upgrade on your behalf and you pay for it.

Ellory it's simple ..if the original owner was willing to give you a notarized transfer of ownership. Then the communication is there for you to ask the original owner to upgrade on your behalf and you pay for it.

It's even more simple than that.

I would hope that BM would chime in here if misinformation about upgrades is being posted to their very own forums.

I would hope that BM would chime in here if misinformation about upgrades is being posted to their very own forums.

Here's your proof. You just have to know how to deal with people.

Ellory it's simple ..if the original owner was willing to give you a notarized transfer of ownership. Then the communication is there for you to ask the original owner to upgrade on your behalf and you pay for it.

It's even more simple than that.

Vic, first of, I was not complaining. I was just stating based on my experience. I email BH all the paperwork (copy of the original receipt for the original owner, the receipt I paid the original owner for the URSA, and the transfer letter from the original owner stating he is releasing all ownership rights to me). They told me that since I was not the original purchaser of the URSA then loyalty program does not apply. It was stated in the condition from Blackmagic. Unfortunately the original owner wouldn't want to purchase it in my behalf. After several tries months ago, I gave up hope. Unless they recently change the rules, I wouldn't know and I'll try calling BH again this week.

Ellory it's simple ..if the original owner was willing to give you a notarized transfer of ownership. Then the communication is there for you to ask the original owner to upgrade on your behalf and you pay for it.

It's even more simple than that.

Vic, first of, I was not complaining. I was just stating based on my experience. I email BH all the paperwork (copy of the original receipt for the original owner, the receipt I paid the original owner for the URSA, and the transfer letter from the original owner stating he is releasing all ownership rights to me). They told me that since I was not the original purchaser of the URSA then loyalty program does not apply. It was stated in the condition from Blackmagic. Unfortunately the original owner wouldn't want to purchase it in my behalf. After several tries months ago, I gave up hope. Unless they recently change the rules, I wouldn't know and I'll try calling BH again this week.

One last time, like a few of us have suggested, you might want to call BM directly. B&H phone reps really have no clue. It's like calling tech support in the US and getting someone overseas that's reading off a flow chart. They mean well, but that doesn't put a $6000, kick ass camera on my coffee table next to it's siblings.

Vic, I don't doubt that you talked your way into a UMP upgrade on an Ursa you didn't originally purchase, but surely you must realize that it's unlikely that such a policy is in place. What kind of loyalty is present when the original owner sells their camera?

Vic, your experience aside, unless you speak for BM, I would rather that BM chime in and clear this up.

Edited below

I will say that I initially ran into the same issue with the loyalty program. I purchased used from Adorama and ran into issues with their confusion over the upgrade program. One call to Blackmagic, explaining the situation solved the problem. They were more than accommodating and contacted the reseller to inform them that it did in fact extend to those who were not the original owner, but current owner.

Vic, I don't doubt that you talked your way into a UMP upgrade on an Ursa you didn't originally purchase, but surely you must realize that it's unlikely that such a policy is in place. What kind of loyalty is present when the original owner sells their camera?

Vic, your experience aside, unless you speak for BM, I would rather that BM chime in and clear this up.

Once again, wrong on all points.

Piece out guys, I'm leaving the thread since nobody can follow simple directions here.

So, I noticed the URSA v2 has been discontinued (As per B&H page) and they are selling V1 at a steep discount. Excited me about the prospects of being an URSA owner. So, I ordered one especially after seeing Grant's message on July 10th, about the delay with the sensor. If, they hack the 4.6K or the next sensor on the URSA, then we are in luck. If not, it still is a great studio camera.

If I where Blackmagic I would be abandoning the 4.6k sensor and focusing my efforts on making sure the next sensor (they are no doubt already developing) works with the the big URSA, otherwise they will constantly be playing catch up.

That's what I don't yet completely understand How can they develop a brand new sensor from the ground up that was not totally compatible with the URSA? That is like buying a brand new set of tires for a car that I don't own and then trying to change the rims after the fact.

If I where Blackmagic I would be abandoning the 4.6k sensor and focusing my efforts on making sure the next sensor (they are no doubt already developing) works with the the big URSA, otherwise they will constantly be playing catch up.

I'm not sure of the logic of this.

Arri seem to have done well with a sensor that is WELL OVER 10 years old.

In fact they switched companies that were making their sensor for them a few years ago but it's the same sensor today.

You can spin better and better revs of the same sensor though, clocking it faster for example to get higher frame rates and better RS integration times if you keep working on it. Maybe the GS comes along that was always meant to be there.

I think this sensor is good and they should focus on improving the results they can get from it and the consistency of the results.

JB

John hit the nail on the head!!! This sensor is quite amazing and it is being used in a quite a large amount of high end/high profile projects. We have had it on 6 Warner brothers jobs already this year. Seeing BMD focus on this sensor and squeezing more and more out of it sounds like quite an awesome course of action.

The sensor already resolves more than the arri sensor... which to most is considered the gold standard. It has very similar dynamic range, though it is slightly less than the arri. I will say in our tests though it resolves similar to what the 8k RED Helium sensor does. I have no clue how that is working out, but it put the 8k off limits for us for productions as it was so much data for no improved image resolution ( well marginal improvement if any ). All that to say what JB is saying. If BMD continues to enhance the sensor and the camera that surrounds it, it will allow post houses to become accustom to its color, DP's to become comfortable with its functionality, etc... which is one of the reasons the arri has remained the gold standard. Its a great looking image with a reliable and KNOWN pipeline.

Thats all just my 2 cents, but I love the sensor and find it to be really robust and flexible.

I think this sensor is good and they should focus on improving the results they can get from it and the consistency of the results.

Agreed. It's only "out of date" because it's not 8K, but that's a canard; it's not a necessity by any means, we still can't even deliver stuff in 4K!

And while Panasonic and Canon are releasing new high end cameras that have 4K sensors, and the cameras that have been the Helium and Dragon's strongest competitors in production like Netflix' are all 4K cameras (Varicam, C700), it's ridiculous to complain about not having 8K.

BMD's 4.6K sensor ticks the most important boxes that determine image quality -- dynamic range and color. Resolution wise it would be enough for most films if it only matched Arri's sensor, yet it's 4.6K...

I wonder how much battery life will suffer if we turn up the juice and the frequency to the sensor. As long as it didn't go up in smoke or throw the blue screen of death randomly during a shoot I think most of us would take poor battery life into account and enjoy the faster speeds.

Considering we are also concerned with battery life which may becoming shorter one requested feature would be a standby mode in which the camera goes into a standby or sleep mode and then the ability to wake back up at the push of power button or automatically triggered when record button is pushed.

Intel has a sleep state where maybe only part of the camera is energized and also a deep sleep state where the camera is totally asleep. For its laptops Intel has managed to increase performance and battery life while decreasing thermal TDP which is amazing.

I wonder how much battery life will suffer if we turn up the juice and the frequency to the sensor.

I think this goes to some of the engineering challenges for the Ursa. The heat exchange on the sensor block is an ambitious idea. The Ursa body is mostly cooling. But the heat has to transfer from the sensor block.

JB

Assuming BM wants to employ thermal pads to fill in what could be large gaps between the sensor block and the URSA the best thermal pads I have found come from Fujipoly. They can absorb 17.0 W/mK (Watts per meter Kelvin). http://www.fujipoly.com/usa/products/sarcon-thermal-management-components/thermal-gap-filler-products/gap-filler-pads-putty/

If you go to a paste or a liquid the two leaders there are Thermal Grizzly Conductonaut fluid which can absorb 73 W/mk in liquid form or Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut paste which can absorb 12 W/mk in paste form.

I also use very fine grit sandpaper and special polish compound on all of my CPU's to get them to a mirror like finish. If you want the best temps that is what you have to do.

If I where Blackmagic I would be abandoning the 4.6k sensor and focusing my efforts on making sure the next sensor (they are no doubt already developing) works with the the big URSA, otherwise they will constantly be playing catch up.

I'm not sure of the logic of this.

Arri seem to have done well with a sensor that is WELL OVER 10 years old.

In fact they switched companies that were making their sensor for them a few years ago but it's the same sensor today.

You can spin better and better revs of the same sensor though, clocking it faster for example to get higher frame rates and better RS integration times if you keep working on it. Maybe the GS comes along that was always meant to be there.

I think this sensor is good and they should focus on improving the results they can get from it and the consistency of the results.

JB

I agree with your comments I do think the sensor will stand up for many years to come, my logic however is the fact that it seems big URSA owners are already seemidly getting mildly frustrated that the 4.6k sensor isn't already out.

If I personally owned one and I had been waiting so long and then a year later they release a new camera with and even better performing sensor it would feel like a bit of a kick in the teeth.

Blackmagic seem to be constantly innovating, so surely if they are developing their next sensor and if they plan to keep on supporting the big Ursa they will make sure the design is compatible with the bigger URSA body.

My sneaking suspicions are the the 4.6k turret will be the one and only updgrade for this camera as most of the people in the market seemily prefer the smaller body design.

It reminds me of rebuilding my PC every few years. Maybe I save the case, everything else is relative to the new processor.

What made me drool over the Ursa when it was released was that it was a true production camera that was upgradeable. Not to mention the global shutter, 3 monitors and a very rugged build and affordable to boot.

I do hope that BM does continue and succeeds with the turret upgrade as planned and marketed. I would love to have 15 stops available.

Vic, I don't doubt that you talked your way into a UMP upgrade on an Ursa you didn't originally purchase, but surely you must realize that it's unlikely that such a policy is in place. What kind of loyalty is present when the original owner sells their camera?

Vic, your experience aside, unless you speak for BM, I would rather that BM chime in and clear this up.

Once again, wrong on all points.

Piece out guys, I'm leaving the thread since nobody can follow simple directions here.

I wish you would stay. You provide/provided helpful information. I understood what you were saying on your first comment. You were trying to educate without having to spell it out. Just because someone doesn't understand shouldn't cause you to leave the thread. I'm just saying your voice would be missed is all.

Poke*

I bought the UMPro + 4K kit from B&H. Now am joining the squad. My UM sensor was fried by a lazer. So, was a good a time as any to go up a notch.

Heck, can they sell even the 4K EF turret as we wait? The PL version isn't much usable since I am all EF.

Heck, can they sell even the 4K EF turret as we wait? The PL version isn't much usable since I am all EF.

I sent BM an email with that very question and they answered that turrets were only available with cameras. That's when it became obvious. They have never sold loose Ursa turrets, and they never will.

It's been another month and still no Ursa 4.7K turret. They've discontinued the Ursa and are being rather passive aggressive about discontinuing the turret.

They can only test one sensor every three months. R&D even in large corporations with armies of people can take years to develop. But promise they did.

Heck, can they sell even the 4K EF turret as we wait? The PL version isn't much usable since I am all EF.

I sent BM an email with that very question and they answered that turrets were only available with cameras. That's when it became obvious. They have never sold loose Ursa turrets, and they never will.

It's been another month and still no Ursa 4.7K turret. They've discontinued the Ursa and are being rather passive aggressive about discontinuing the turret.

I saw they have discontinued URSA v2, (as per B&H). They still have v1 in the PL version. Obviously, they are getting rid of stock. That raises a flag. On this forum, Grant says they are still working on it. That stops the flag mid point. (If there is any metaphor like that). I paid 500 bucks for it. I can't complain. (Thanks BM/B&H). But I am wishful they can get the 4.6 EF or a future sensor working on it. Its a great cam. I would have used it as is, but I cannot justify the investment in PL lenses. Not at my current work level as an owner operator.

So, if BM tanks the project, I will have a brand new, 3 year old camera I cannot use with my lenses, meet my clients as they walk into my office - that I paid 500 bucks for. hey, anyone know how I can work around the PL challange? What other "affordable" lenses are out there that will fit the mount?

Michael, try some searches on eBay and ask around for vintage lenses. There are 'affordable' new prime lenses from Sony CineAlta, Rokinon Xeen, and SLR Magic APO. And the price of new zooms are falling, but used is your best bet.


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Michael, try some searches on eBay and ask around for vintage lenses. There are 'affordable' new prime lenses from Sony CineAlta, Rokinon Xeen, and SLR Magic APO. And the price of new zooms are falling, but used is your best bet.


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thanks Rick. I always like your commentary. Been keen on the SLRMagic APO for their apparent versatility. The "twist off" PL/EF adapter to move between the two mounts seems to attractive. I just had concerns about micro adjustments when moving between the two. Will it always hit infinity. What about over time? Then, not much info online about them. @JohnBrawley has tested them a few years ago. Seem like a good buy. The Xeen's also seem great. Then I can adapt to my EF mount cameras. Thats also an option. Shane Hulbert had some good feedback on them. Can't pick between the two. Guess I have to hire them and try em out.

thanks Rick. I always like your commentary. Been keen on the SLRMagic APO for their apparent versatility. The "twist off" PL/EF adapter to move between the two mounts seems to attractive. I just had concerns about micro adjustments when moving between the two. Will it always hit infinity. What about over time? Then, not much info online about them. @JohnBrawley has tested them a few years ago. Seem like a good buy. The Xeen's also seem great. Then I can adapt to my EF mount cameras. Thats also an option. Shane Hulbert had some good feedback on them. Can't pick between the two. Guess I have to hire them and try em out.

A lot of these two clips was shot using the SLR Magic APO lenses

https://johnbrawley.wordpress.com/2017/ ... s-does-4k/

JB

You can shim the APO lenses so I don't think you'll have a problem hitting infinity.


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As for an improved 4.6K sensor which can reach the global shutter benchmarks the earlier 4K sensor could achieve, my wild guess is that whatever drives the development of the sensor may be the URSA Mini Pro. The big URSA via a modified turret may be the collateral beneficiary.

As for other mounts, a Nikon F-Mount, Canon EF-Mount, Canon FD-Mount are not impossible for the big URSA PL turret with the FD-Mount potentially the easiest to make. I have done a Nikon Mount, albeit with no locking pin. That would require a little more effort than I have put in.

My motivation was that I have an existing Nikon lens set with more choices than I can afford to replace in PL-Mount. My PL-Mount lenses are either Super16mm or very vintage older ARRI-Mount lenses of "distressed" image quality with PL-Mount adaptors.

As mentioned previously, there are offerings in modern lenses, which have interchangeable mount options including PL-Mount, so having a custom Nikon or Canon mount made for the PL URSA does not make a lot of sense if new lenses are to be purchased.

thanks Rick. I always like your commentary. Been keen on the SLRMagic APO for their apparent versatility. The "twist off" PL/EF adapter to move between the two mounts seems to attractive. I just had concerns about micro adjustments when moving between the two. Will it always hit infinity. What about over time? Then, not much info online about them. @JohnBrawley has tested them a few years ago. Seem like a good buy. The Xeen's also seem great. Then I can adapt to my EF mount cameras. Thats also an option. Shane Hulbert had some good feedback on them. Can't pick between the two. Guess I have to hire them and try em out.

A lot of these two clips was shot using the SLR Magic APO lenses

https://johnbrawley.wordpress.com/2017/ ... s-does-4k/

JB

I like 'em. Thanks JB

https://johnbrawley.wordpress.com/2017/ ... s-does-4k/

JB

I like 'em. Thanks JB[/quote]

Yeah I like them more and more. Now that there's a set, it becomes more feasible to use them on shows. I like how well made they are nad they're sharp without being super contrasty.

JB