4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

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Denny Smith

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu Sep 21, 2017 1:59 am

Yes, BM cameras have the ability to add user data to file ID, but none of the BM recorders have had this feature, including the Hyperdecks. So, not sure this is a feature that can be added in a firmware update?
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Michael Odhiambo

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostTue Sep 26, 2017 7:17 pm

So, thoughts on this? A new BM camera in development?

http://www.freshpatents.com/-dt20170803 ... 223239.php

Theory : The dumping of URSA v1PL happened about the same time this patent was filed (July-August 2017) I think the first steep URSA sale was in July 2017. B&H no longer have URSA v1 or v2s, Adorama have them in stock and as at the time of typing this, BM amazon page has 1 left in stock. So... It's safe to assume they are in limited quantity. Manufacturing is focused on UMPro (for now).
In July, Grant says development is ongoing for the 4.6K turret (welcome news) and extends a special price to original owners of the URSAs - Showing they appreciate their customers. However, they are developing a new modular camera system. With potentially multiple sensors. 3D application... VR/AR.... Something like a movable sensor plane. Which would mean it can take just about any lens on the planet. Can it be they will try put the latest sensor into the new modular system...and retro fit it to work with the URSA turret or skip the 4.6 turret all together? That is the question. This patent shows a new modular design. Which means the "old" URSA bodies might not benefit from this new design. The patent describes say a sensor module, which initially gave me the impression its the only part needed for the URSA.... but then why offer steeply discounted prices on the URSA bodies? (No complain there) But after seeing this new camera in development, even if its 2 years out, URSA is looking less and less likely to getting the 4.6K sensor, and less likely getting this new sensor.

I am certain that my assumptions are gravely inaccurate, however, the dots are getting closer and closer.
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rick.lang

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4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostTue Sep 26, 2017 7:58 pm

‘Filing a patent’ date
plus ‘patent approval’ date
plus date of ‘release of products’ covered by said approved patents
minus time spent in ‘development before patent approval’
plus ‘total development’ time
equals “too many years.”


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Michael Odhiambo

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostTue Sep 26, 2017 8:59 pm

rick.lang wrote:‘Filing a patent’ date
plus ‘patent approval’ date
plus date of ‘release of products’ covered by said approved patents
minus time spent in ‘development before patent approval’
plus ‘total development’ time
equals “too many years.”


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true... this is probably something which will be announced 2 years from now. Looking at when they filed the micro cinema cam, and when it was announced.... a couple of months apart. What I am getting at is, will this new sensor be built to fit the URSA?
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Gavin_c_clark

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostTue Sep 26, 2017 9:20 pm

That patent was filed 5 years ago in Australia I think? So probably not unless I’m misreading something

Although it’s probably about time to ask what’s going on with the turrets again? Or any new firmware??
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed Sep 27, 2017 5:44 pm

This is a very old 2013/2014 Patent for the Production 4k, Cinema etc body style. This was just minor revision (like to correct and error) submitted for that.
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robertmanningjr

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon Oct 02, 2017 7:40 pm

Gavin_c_clark wrote:That patent was filed 5 years ago in Australia I think? So probably not unless I’m misreading something

Although it’s probably about time to ask what’s going on with the turrets again? Or any new firmware??


I second those two questions. I would love to spend my money on a turret.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed Oct 04, 2017 12:07 am

Here's a story about "4 screws"...

“It is our next-generation camera system, a ground-up development initiative,” said Sony marketing manager Peter Crithary of the new camera, whose development was first announced last spring at Cine Gear Expo. “We worked in close collaboration with film industry professionals. We also considered the longer-term strategy by designing a user interchangeable sensor that is as quick and simple to swap as removing four screws, and can accommodate different shooting scenarios as the need arises.”

Copied from >

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/behind ... ra-1035827
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Oct 06, 2017 9:28 am

In October now...BMD any news on the sensor development? Thanks!

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Oct 06, 2017 4:56 pm

What a lot of irrelevant drivel about RED’s old plans and then ends with just the specs of what is real. Terrible writing unless they pay by the word.


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Rakesh Malik

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Oct 06, 2017 6:00 pm

rick.lang wrote:What a lot of irrelevant drivel about RED’s old plans and then ends with just the specs of what is real. Terrible writing unless they pay by the word.


They probably do. And the author is probably just someone with severe Red envy ;)

It sounds like it's basically similar to Helium, but bigger. Bigger sensor, bigger photo sites, etc from what Jarred posted on the announcement thread.
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rick.lang

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Oct 06, 2017 9:42 pm

Not to mention that AFAIK he’s incorrect saying VistaVision is what RED equates to 135 film. It’s different and existed in film use before digital sensors were in use for cinema cameras, no?


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Rakesh Malik

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Oct 06, 2017 9:45 pm

You're correct. Red's using the Vista Vision term because it matches the film format that used to carry that name.
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Ben Mart

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Oct 06, 2017 10:08 pm

**** Red.

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Oct 06, 2017 10:53 pm

Ben Mart wrote:**** Red.

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+1 :lol:
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSat Oct 07, 2017 5:02 am

While those of us are still hoping for the 4.6K Turret to come, can BMD at least give the URSA 4K v1 and v2 a chance with a 4.x firmware upgrade that at the very least have 4.x features that does not utilize specific UM/UMP functions? I will be happy if they can add
1. LUT support
2. False Color and other scope functionalities on the built-in monitor
3. Additional codecs and resolution (like 2.5K BMD CC). I miss the Cinema Camera's 2.5K res.
Please BMD. Help us keep our investments alive a bit longer or while we await for the 4.6K Turret.
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Ben Mart

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSat Oct 07, 2017 5:36 pm

Ellory Yu wrote:While those of us are still hoping for the 4.6K Turret to come, can BMD at least give the URSA 4K v1 and v2 a chance with a 4.x firmware upgrade that at the very least have 4.x features that does not utilize specific UM/UMP functions? I will be happy if they can add
1. LUT support
2. False Color and other scope functionalities on the built-in monitor
3. Additional codecs and resolution (like 2.5K BMD CC). I miss the Cinema Camera's 2.5K res.
Please BMD. Help us keep our investments alive a bit longer or while we await for the 4.6K Turret.
+1

...Feels like BMD have regessed in the PR Department.

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSat Oct 07, 2017 6:14 pm

I would be satisfied to have the BM4.6K non-global shutter sensor as an optional turret without the bells and whistles so long as I can refit the 4K global sensor turret when global function is needed.

However the data handling of the original big URSA may be specific to the 4K sensor only and require additional processing capability outside of the turret.

If global or even just normal rolling shutter can only be available to 30P in a 4.6K sensor turret, then I can live with that too although I suspect other users may cry in their cups.

With the more time that passes, the likelyhood of any new sensor and its ancilliary circuitry remaining compatable with the generation of electronics in the big URSA body may become less and less to the point of being eventually impossible.

It may be that BM might be playing a waiting game until the generally accepted seven year product support threshold expires. The population of big URSA cams supplanted by the loyalty upgrade scheme may have by then become high enough to eliminate most of the holdouts.

The few remaining big URSA cameras may by then be comprised of secondhand post-upgrade resold units whose new owners will have to suck it up because they will rightly be owed no loyalty upgrade.

That will be fine and legal. The few remaining big URSA original owners might then be told barlees. You left it too late.

Like the SI2K which remains a good but largely unloved system these days, the big URSA may become a derilect unsupported canoe, favoured only by the holdouts like me.

It is rather a pity because it is probably the best crew-friendly production option out there.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSat Oct 07, 2017 7:18 pm

robert Hart wrote:I would be satisfied to have the BM4.6K non-global shutter sensor as an optional turret without the bells and whistles so long as I can refit the 4K global sensor turret when global function is needed.

However the data handling of the original big URSA may be specific to the 4K sensor only and require additional processing capability outside of the turret.

If global or even just normal rolling shutter can only be available to 30P in a 4.6K sensor turret, then I can live with that too although I suspect other users may cry in their cups.

With the more time that passes, the likelyhood of any new sensor and its ancilliary circuitry remaining compatable with the generation of electronics in the big URSA body may become less and less to the point of being eventually impossible.

It may be that BM might be playing a waiting game until the generally accepted seven year product support threshold expires. The population of big URSA cams supplanted by the loyalty upgrade scheme may have by then become high enough to eliminate most of the holdouts.

The few remaining big URSA cameras may by then be comprised of secondhand post-upgrade resold units whose new owners will have to suck it up because they will rightly be owed no loyalty upgrade.

That will be fine and legal. The few remaining big URSA original owners might then be told barlees. You left it too late.

Like the SI2K which remains a good but largely unloved system these days, the big URSA may become a derilect unsupported canoe, favoured only by the holdouts like me.

It is rather a pity because it is probably the best crew-friendly production option out there.


The Ursa 4K to Ursa Mini Pro program was implemented for us as a “we know you’ve been waiting for the turret” as a token of appreciation we’ll give you this discount until we complete the turret. They’ve said to us time and again they’re working on it..they also said when they have something they will let us know. Read grant’s message above if you haven’t already. Those written words are the ones I will hold onto instead of speculation.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSat Oct 07, 2017 7:25 pm

robert Hart wrote:I would be satisfied to have the BM4.6K non-global shutter sensor as an optional turret without the bells and whistles so long as I can refit the 4K global sensor turret when global function is needed.

However the data handling of the original big URSA may be specific to the 4K sensor only and require additional processing capability outside of the turret.

If global or even just normal rolling shutter can only be available to 30P in a 4.6K sensor turret, then I can live with that too although I suspect other users may cry in their cups.

With the more time that passes, the likelyhood of any new sensor and its ancilliary circuitry remaining compatable with the generation of electronics in the big URSA body may become less and less to the point of being eventually impossible.

It may be that BM might be playing a waiting game until the generally accepted seven year product support threshold expires. The population of big URSA cams supplanted by the loyalty upgrade scheme may have by then become high enough to eliminate most of the holdouts.

The few remaining big URSA cameras may by then be comprised of secondhand post-upgrade resold units whose new owners will have to suck it up because they will rightly be owed no loyalty upgrade.

That will be fine and legal. The few remaining big URSA original owners might then be told barlees. You left it too late.

Like the SI2K which remains a good but largely unloved system these days, the big URSA may become a derilect unsupported canoe, favoured only by the holdouts like me.

It is rather a pity because it is probably the best crew-friendly production option out there.


If someone bought the URSA today, new or used, they are still purchasing a camera that is documented as being an upgradable sensor camera. They are still buying a camera that had the 4.6 turret announced as ready in 2015 and announced several months ago as still being developed to be delivered. I agree with you on the seven year wait which is why I'm not waiting that long. BM will try to drag this out seven years or longer.

I also agree the longer we wait the less likely it becomes feasible the turret will happen. The turret is not a priority with BMD. If it was priority number one it would already be on the market OR they would take the loss and say they made a mistake and it's not going to happen.

Im still personally baffled that a company would announce a product and give a shipping date when they didn't have a working model. That doesn't make any sense to me. It's like going in to do a heart transplant and not having a heart or a surgeon or instruments and thinking "It'll work out".
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSun Oct 08, 2017 5:10 am

Anyone who has bought a used big URSA recently has to be a bit naive if they have not researched the camera and become aware of the issue. I know there are innocents and beginners but due diligence is due diligence.

I think there are some realities that big URSA owners may have to confront sooner or later. That reality is that nothing comes from nothing.

To remain in the R and D game at all, BM has to sell product to generate the revenue to pay people to come to work each day, pay their suppliers and at the end of it all, make the shareholders satisfied.

If that means priority towards the URSA Mini camera family and the other product lines, then that is what has to happen. In a retail space, loss leader marketing has to be sustained by other sales or it is game over for an enterprise. No one can really know if the big URSA gained enough customer sales and loyalty to be commercially viable. BM would be unwise to provide the answer.

The industry players who SI/P+S Technik, RED and subsequently BM have disrupted, have after some inertia, themselves adapted. They may be still playing the crippleware game but there is no longer a reputed if not actual informal cartel holding innovation back.

BM is in a seriously competitive environment in which progressing the big URSA may turn out to be an unaffordable luxury. If a major player like ARRI can find itself at risk of being painted into a corner by suppliers of its sensors witholding service, BM is unlikely to be in a more powerful place with its suppliers.

We shall just have to be patient, wait and see and be prepared if the big URSA's upgrade problems cannot be solved in the next three or so years before realistic customary product support expectation runs out of time.

If it comes to that, it will comprehensively suck, but that's life in the real world.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed Oct 11, 2017 5:17 am

How about BM release 4.6K v1 with current limits as on the UM and UMPro. So no GS, max 2160p60, 1080p120, 6:5 Anamorphic etc. When and/or if they get 4.6K v2 to work, then those who need the higher framerates and GS can opt to buy. Kind of like 4kv1 and v2. At one point, you choose which sensor. Same as UM4K and UM4.6K. Personally, I am happy with the current UM specs. More would be great, but how many times have I shot above 60 on the UM? Maybe 3 times in the 18 or so months. How many times have I done crazy whip pans to need GS? Not shooting anything like that....yet.
Release the turret
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Ellory Yu

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed Oct 11, 2017 7:26 pm

How about a URSA 4K V2 Turret, for which the sensor already exist, and sell it as an upgradable part to existing URSA 4K V1 owners?
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed Oct 11, 2017 10:56 pm

Ellory Yu wrote:How about a URSA 4K V2 Turret, for which the sensor already exist, and sell it as an upgradable part to existing URSA 4K V1 owners?

When BM does this, then and only then, would I believe anything they have to say about working on, let alone shipping, a 4.6K turret.

If they are still in the business of supporting the big Ursa, then start shipping loose turrets for configurations they can ship.

BM, ship or get off the pot.

[One more month with no turret.]
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu Oct 12, 2017 11:41 am

QUOTE: "Release the turret"

That quote plus the image of Liam Neeson in full legend look, summons up that old saying.

"If you really love something, set it free."
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu Oct 12, 2017 12:27 pm

For a product that has probably been delayed or shelved because of lack of commercial interest, this thread has had more views than pretty much anything else on this forum with the exception of the faqs. 80 000 + views and counting!!!
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu Oct 12, 2017 1:11 pm

Ellory Yu wrote:How about a URSA 4K V2 Turret, for which the sensor already exist, and sell it as an upgradable part to existing URSA 4K V1 owners?

+1
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostSun Oct 15, 2017 5:57 pm

I wonder if
Patrick Acum wrote:For a product that has probably been delayed or shelved because of lack of commercial interest, this thread has had more views than pretty much anything else on this forum with the exception of the faqs. 80 000 + views and counting!!!
+1
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon Oct 16, 2017 6:39 am

I don't know why the flagship of bmd camera Ursa4 K discontinued or eol!!!,there is no camera in the world with liquid cooled sensor technology and 3 station camera!,picture quality is excellent,in par with arri Alexa,codec is better than red epic dragon,cinema dng raw is having least compression when compared to red epic dragon!;solid build,in India more than seven feature film shot on Ursa4K,now iam also shooting a feature film on this,still lot of people including me are looking for a upgrade to the Ursa4K by a 4.6 K and 15+ dynamic range by replacing the turret by a new turret(as promised by black majic design)
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon Oct 16, 2017 5:09 pm

Asok Kumar wrote:I don't know why the flagship of bmd camera Ursa4 K discontinued or eol!!!,there is no camera in the world with liquid cooled sensor technology and 3 station camera!,picture quality is excellent,in par with arri Alexa,codec is better than red epic dragon,cinema dng raw is having least compression when compared to red epic dragon!;solid build,in India more than seven feature film shot on Ursa4K,now iam also shooting a feature film on this,still lot of people including me are looking for a upgrade to the Ursa4K by a 4.6 K and 15+ dynamic range by replacing the turret by a new turret(as promised by black majic design)


Two ways to retain market share one is to make better products at a lower cost the second is to prevent offending products from entering the marketplace. We all know BM could produce turrets if they wanted to but maybe the competition has put a spell on BM to prevent them from releasing the turrets. The Death Star has to be destroyed.
Last edited by Brian Gulliver on Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostMon Oct 16, 2017 5:39 pm

Brian Gulliver wrote:Two ways to retain market share one is to make better products at a lower cost the second is to prevent offending products from entering the marketplace. We all know BM could produce turrets if they wanted to but maybe the imperial emperor at Arri, Red etc. have put a spell on BM to prevent them from releasing the turrets. The death star has to be destroyed.


It's far more likely that BMD is having trouble getting them to work the way that it wants to, since it's BMD's first attempt at a sensor design.
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Asok Kumar

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed Oct 18, 2017 4:30 am

I think that they will release the turret on this coming nab(today)
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed Oct 18, 2017 4:58 pm

Asok Kumar wrote:I think that they will release the turret on this coming nab(today)


Their pattern has been announcements outside of trade show dates and then show the new toys at the show. Most likely the SSD recorder will be on display. Boy.... I hope I am wrong and your right.
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Asok Kumar

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu Oct 19, 2017 3:44 pm

"Happy events";"Sleeplessely yours",These are the two feature films now shooting with black magic Ursa4K in India,total eight feature film shot in 2017 in India!
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Asok Kumar

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Oct 20, 2017 1:28 am

At last nothing happened from black magic design on this nab !!!
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Asok Kumar

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed Oct 25, 2017 10:48 am

DOES anybody knows about the optical quality of the sony cinalta scl pl6 lens? Is it optically better than cp2/CP3 lens? In par with ultra prime lens? Iam planning to buy it for shooting my feature film
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed Oct 25, 2017 11:40 am

Asok Kumar wrote:DOES anybody knows about the optical quality of the sony cinalta scl pl6 lens? Is it optically better than cp2/CP3 lens? In par with ultra prime lens? Iam planning to buy it for shooting my feature film

There's quite a bit of discussion here, on BMCUser and REDUser devoted to discussing these lenses.

BMCUser:
http://www.bmcuser.com/showthread.php?1 ... lta+primes

REDUser:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread ... lta+primes

There's also some tests available comparing these lenses to others, and looking at flare, breathing etc.

But I can say with absolute certainty, as an owner of the six lens set, that these lenses are superb. The build quality is excellent, the optics are amazing (sharp across the frame, colour matching, beautiful bokeh, no breathing, nice flare characteristics, minimal CA), genuinely fast T2, and with matching gear positions and front diameters. Every lens is identical in size apart from the 135mm which is longer. They are simply the best value cine lenses on the market.

Only draw backs -
1. They are heavy but comparable to many, including Cooke and Ultra Primes in this regard
2. You have to buy the full set of six.
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Asok Kumar

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed Oct 25, 2017 12:38 pm

THANKS,but they r not seen in the rent market also not seen in Hollywood feature film
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Asok Kumar

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostWed Oct 25, 2017 1:55 pm

ANY movie in Hollywood shot on the sony cinalta mk2 lens?
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Asok Kumar

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu Oct 26, 2017 4:00 am

Does anybody knows about any feature film shot on sony cinalta sc pk6 lens and Red camera or Alexa camera
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu Oct 26, 2017 5:00 am

Asok Kumar wrote:Does anybody knows about any feature film shot on sony cinalta sc pk6 lens and Red camera or Alexa camera


What difference does it make to whether or not they're good lenses?
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Asok Kumar

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu Oct 26, 2017 5:25 am

If it is good lens ,definitely I will buy it,but I don't know why the cinema industry especially in India ,there is not much acceptance
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu Oct 26, 2017 6:10 am

Asok Kumar wrote:If it is good lens ,definitely I will buy it,but I don't know why the cinema industry especially in India ,there is not much acceptance


Ok, but who cares? Does other people using them affect their image quality in some way?
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Asok Kumar

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu Oct 26, 2017 6:38 am

I didn't get,what u mean?
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostThu Oct 26, 2017 2:16 pm

Asok Kumar wrote:I didn't get,what u mean?


Why? It's a simple question. Hardly anyone uses Black Magic cameras in Hollywood either, does that make the Black Magic cameras not good?

Clearly the answer is no...

The CineAlta lenses are basically Minolta lenses in cinema housings and don't have breathing problems. That plus a review or two should be enough. (Hint: the reviews I've seen have been very positive.)
Rakesh Malik
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Asok Kumar

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Oct 27, 2017 3:15 am

Ok,thanks,please let me know any movies shot on cinalta lens,regards asok
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Oct 27, 2017 5:53 am

Any updates on the turrets???
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Asok Kumar

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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Oct 27, 2017 7:11 am

Iam also looking for that,so far no further information!
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Oct 27, 2017 3:46 pm

I shot this series on the um46 and cinealtas. They're an amazingly good value set.http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b096slhz
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Re: 4.6K Turret for Original Ursa Owners?

PostFri Oct 27, 2017 3:49 pm

Tristan Pemberton wrote:
Asok Kumar wrote:DOES anybody knows about the optical quality of the sony cinalta scl pl6 lens? Is it optically better than cp2/CP3 lens? In par with ultra prime lens? Iam planning to buy it for shooting my feature film

There's quite a bit of discussion here, on BMCUser and REDUser devoted to discussing these lenses.

BMCUser:
http://www.bmcuser.com/showthread.php?1 ... lta+primes

REDUser:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread ... lta+primes

There's also some tests available comparing these lenses to others, and looking at flare, breathing etc.

But I can say with absolute certainty, as an owner of the six lens set, that these lenses are superb. The build quality is excellent, the optics are amazing (sharp across the frame, colour matching, beautiful bokeh, no breathing, nice flare characteristics, minimal CA), genuinely fast T2, and with matching gear positions and front diameters. Every lens is identical in size apart from the 135mm which is longer. They are simply the best value cine lenses on the market.

Only draw backs -
1. They are heavy but comparable to many, including Cooke and Ultra Primes in this regard
2. You have to buy the full set of six.


Absolutely agree!! Love mine, they're a bit of a secret weapon!
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