Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

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Craig Marshall

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Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostThu Feb 01, 2018 10:40 pm

I'm reminded of that line in Blade Runner 2049: "This Changes the World"

https://www.redsharknews.com/production ... -broadcast

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“We also want to galvanise a new generation of web creators to upgrade,” said Petty. “Why use a DSLR and fumble with that when you can have all the feature set of a professional camera?”

Why indeed!
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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostThu Feb 01, 2018 11:52 pm

So I am trying to read posts and articles as fast as I can.. but apparently not fast enough so Ill ask.

Can this camera be used for film, commercials, etc.. or does it have something in the guts that result in the video not usable for film and such? It seems from what I can gather this is the same sensor their original 4K camera used and/or the studio 4k? Isnt that one known for not having a really good ISO and low light? Hence it would make sense it is targeted more towards use cases that are well lit?

The camera looks spectacular, and I am trying to figure out how much it differs, other than the sensor, from the Ursa Mini Pro that is almost 2x the price?

What is the dynamic range? It also says it can record 12-bit RAW.. can it do that on SD cards? Or is that only for the more or less useless cfast format? If it does work on sdcards, willl we see the same issues of only a couple brands/speeds work, the rest dont? Recording 12-bit raw cinemadng still needs a pretty good continuous write speed. Does it end up using both cards in a raid 0 configuration for 12-bit raw?

Will the new external SSD drive work with this camera too?

I am seriously considering this camera if it will truly record 12-bit raw to sdcard or at least the external add on ssd drive, and has decent iso/low light capability. I can live with it not working in darker situations. I just want or hope for similar quality to the usra mini pro, sans the extra 600K pixels.
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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 12:10 am

Justin Jackson wrote:Can this camera be used for film, commercials, etc.. or does it have something in the guts that result in the video not usable for film and such? It seems from what I can gather this is the same sensor their original 4K camera used and/or the studio 4k? Isnt that one known for not having a really good ISO and low light? Hence it would make sense it is targeted more towards use cases that are well lit?


Only footage and time will tell. ATM no one except BMD stuff knows how good it will perform.

Justin Jackson wrote:What is the dynamic range?

12 stops

Justin Jackson wrote:It also says it can record 12-bit RAW.. can it do that on SD cards?

No. They are not fast enough.

Justin Jackson wrote:Or is that only for the more or less useless cfast format?


Sorry, but CFast cards are definitely not useless.

Justin Jackson wrote:Will the new external SSD drive work with this camera too?


Yes and it will record RAW.

Justin Jackson wrote:The camera looks spectacular, and I am trying to figure out how much it differs, other than the sensor, from the Ursa Mini Pro that is almost 2x the price?


It doesn't do 120fps in windowed mode. It maxes out at 60fps.
Max res in RAW is 3840x2160 compared to 4608 x 2592 - that is horizontally 768px less
It has 12 stops vs 15 stops.
Does not come with the side handle.
Last edited by Robert Niessner on Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 12:18 am

I imagine the sensor used in this new camera is from BMD's Micro Studio 4K camera, not the original BM 4K camera which suffered the much reported the FPN issues when used in poorly lit scenarios.

Remember too that good quality servo zooms from Fujinon and Canon are extremely fast when compared with DSLR zooms and they are constant aperture and par focal.
Last edited by Craig Marshall on Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 12:25 am

They share the same sensor size, but the Studio 4K tech specs says 11 stops. But maybe the better cooling of URSA Mini body leads to the increased dynamic range.
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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 2:36 am

Robert Niessner wrote:Sorry, but CFast cards are definitely not useless.




I am going to disagree. For anyone but big budget movies, they are ridiculously expensive and offer no advantages compared to the SSD kit. If it was NVMe based x4 speeds, 32Gbps, maybe. But as far as I can tell there is no advantage other than small size. But at the ridiculous cost they still charge, the external SSD and SSD drives are a far better option, unless I am missing something, which is.. completely possible.
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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 2:49 am

I bought my Angelbird 256GB CFast cards for EUR 253,- during Black Friday, you can buy the Transcend 256GB cards for EUR 330,- regularly. I consider this quite cheap.

SSD SATA contacts are not designed for lots of plugging around. SSDs disappear from the market (like the Sandisk Extreme Pro) after a while. When buying same type of SSD later again, it might have a different firmware version or controller which might be breaking compatibility with the camera.

Anyway I understand that CFast is not for everyone and BMD created an option.
But please don't come here and tell me CFast cards are useless. That is just not true.
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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 3:08 am

Fair enough.. but I read (and dont ask me to provide the link.. I didnt bookmark it) a while ago that because of the high price of CFast and the lack of adoption (given proprietary options for RED, Alexa, etc) that CFast was not being adopted nearly enough to sustain its use. Case in point, BMD added SD Card slots, as well as an optional SSD drive that is as fast/capable but provides much more affordable access to SSD drives.

If it is still a player, so be it. But with SSD options now, it seems not as much needed. I got a 2TB Crucial MX500 for a wee bit more than you paid for a 256GB CFast. That is 8x more space for not much more in price with similar performance and 700TB read/write life span.

I do see the draw of much smaller cards, can store more in your shirt pocket and all, but when lugging around a beefy camera, battery pack etc, whats a couple 2TB SSD drives and external unit!
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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 3:22 am

Justin : ... this is the same sensor their original 4K camera used and/or the studio 4k?


No Justin, it is not, the BMPC 4K and Ursa Mini 4K were larger sensors closer to a STD 35mm size (larger than MFT). The Ursa Boradcast camer uses a 1-inch (slightly larger than S16) sensor, same size as the Micro Studio camers, perhaps an upgraded model of the same sensor, but still a much smaller sensor than the Original BM 4K cine sensor.

The smaller sensor results in wider angle lenses being used for a given AOV and thus increased depth of field, something Boradcast and ENG cameras need. That is why most ENG and Broadcast cameras are 2/3rds sensor size, which the B4 lens is designed to cover. BM has added a 1.5 Tele Converter optics to the new Broadcast camera’s b4 Mount, to expand the projected image circle of B4 lenses, to cover the new 1-inch sensor with about the same AOV it had in the smaller 2/3rds sensor.
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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 5:15 am

Interesting. So more likely not good for cinema/tv/commercial use?

Would love to see the Ursa Min Pro drop a nice chunk in price. Maybe theyll announce a 6K camera soon and drop the price then! Still hoping the pocket camera drops to $500 again for a bit like it did a couple years ago.. still pissed I didnt snap one up then.
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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 6:17 am

I have now and then been looking for B4 lenses in ebay. They are pretty interesting with the huge zoom range and good lens control and have been thinking using with the BMD micro cameras. However as I understand the image circle does not fit directly the micro camera sensor. Does this camera have some optical element to adapt the lens?

BTW, the B4 lenses have been pretty affordable on ebay, have been...
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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 6:20 am

No Justin, the new Ursa Mini should be very good for TV and commercials. I have even used the venerable Canon XL for TV commercials.

Kim, the UM Broadcast B4 lens mount inc,uses an optical block to expand the image circle to cover the slightly larger 1-inch sensor, and correct the lens focus to converge on one sensor plane, instead of the theee CCD prism system they were designed for. You can get a similar B4/MFT optical corrected lens mount adapter from MTF and Abel Cine, about $1500, however. Perhaps BM will come out with their own version of the B4 adsoter for the Studio and Micro Studio Cameras, but not holding my breath on that one.
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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 1:39 pm

Justin Jackson wrote:Fair enough.. but I read (and dont ask me to provide the link.. I didnt bookmark it) a while ago that because of the high price of CFast and the lack of adoption (given proprietary options for RED, Alexa, etc) that CFast was not being adopted nearly enough to sustain its use. Case in point, BMD added SD Card slots, as well as an optional SSD drive that is as fast/capable but provides much more affordable access to SSD drives.


When the first big URSA with CFast slots was announced, prices for a 256 GB card had been around EUR 1600. So prices went down nicely over the years.
Of course CFast does not come into the mass market like SD cards. But if you look closely, the new very fast SD cards with 300MB/s are as expensive as its CFast counterparts.

Justin Jackson wrote:If it is still a player, so be it. But with SSD options now, it seems not as much needed. I got a 2TB Crucial MX500 for a wee bit more than you paid for a 256GB CFast. That is 8x more space for not much more in price with similar performance and 700TB read/write life span.


Well, the 2TB Crucial MX500 costs ~ EUR 400 (ex VAT), but it is not on the official BMD list of recommended SSDs. If you look at those speed consistency benchmarks it jumps quite a bit which isn't a problem in a computer but when you are trying to write a steady datastream for several minutes this might result in dropped frames. And how is the speed when the SSD is nearly full? Does it drop a lot?
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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 4:02 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:It doesn't do 120fps in windowed mode. It maxes out at 60fps.
Max res in RAW is 3840x2160 compared to 4608 x 2592 - that is horizontally 768px less
It has 12 stops vs 15 stops.
Does not come with the side handle.


Ah ok, def. no 120 fps ?

Does it still shoot film/log ?

I'm wondering what the field of view would look like with the Nikon mount, compared to my BMCC with Nikon speed booster ?

I had a look at UK prices & they are actually more in £ than US $...crazy £3306 here..thats $4682 dollars . You can't put that down to a tax difference ..
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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 5:50 pm

It is a smaller sensor, same size as the Micro Studio sensor, so a 35mm lens is going to give you a tele AOV at about 25-degrees, similar to a 49/45mm lens on the BMCC. A normal AOV (without the B4 optical Mount) using a EF or Nik Mount is going to be around 18mm.

Yes the new camera adds film log to the broadcast line of cameras.
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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 6:02 pm

Craig Marshall wrote:“We also want to galvanise a new generation of web creators to upgrade,” said Petty. “Why use a DSLR and fumble with that when you can have all the feature set of a professional camera?”

Why indeed!


I think that falls under the "Duh!" category, but some people will never learn :)
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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 6:20 pm

Justin Jackson wrote:Interesting. So more likely not good for cinema/tv/commercial use?


I'm with Denny on this one. It will do quite well for low budget indie filmmaking. You'd just want to choose wider lenses than for a camera with a larger sensor. No big deal, IMO; there are some very good super 16 cine lenses out there like the Veydra and SLR Magic lines.

Would love to see the Ursa Min Pro drop a nice chunk in price. Maybe theyll announce a 6K camera soon and drop the price then! Still hoping the pocket camera drops to $500 again for a bit like it did a couple years ago.. still pissed I didnt snap one up then.


It's already such a bargain that it's probably not going to drop in price much if at all for a while.
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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 6:42 pm

Denny Smith wrote:It is a smaller sensor, same size as the Micro Studio sensor, so a 35mm lens is going to give you a tele AOV at about 25-degrees, similar to a 49/45mm lens on the BMCC. A normal AOV (without the B4 optical Mount) using a EF or Nik Mount is going to be around 18mm.

Yes the new camera adds film log to the broadcast line of cameras.
Cheers


Interesting, its a shame they couldn't offer an MFT mount option. That would have suited me *perfectly*, & would have allowed the use of speedboosters for APS-C glass. It would have been a no-brainer 'upgrade' then for all the folk with BMCC (MFT) & BMPCC cameras.

P.s Does it say what the native ISO is anywhere?
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Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 6:58 pm

Denny is correct about the ‘normal’ kens being an 18mm lens on the Broadcast 4K sensor when not using the B4 mount with optical correction. For those who find the ‘crop factor’ helpful, the crop is aboyo 2.75x compared to a 135 film gate.

When using the B4 optical mount, you should think in terms of the image circle before it is expanded so the crop there will be just over 3.75x compared to 135 film. So a ‘normal’ AOV using a B4 2/3” lens is provided by a 12mm-14mm focal
length.

An aside: I think the sensor has 0.0034mm photosites. Compare to the 4.6K sensor with 0.0055mm photosites.

Edit
Originally I said the B4 Optical Mount resulted in a 3x crop horizontally compared to 135 film. The correct value is 3.75x. Therefore the ‘normal’ lens would be about 12mm or 14mm, not 16mm as I had posted. I often shoot with 10mm focal length on my Fujinon.

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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 7:35 pm

Ru, I agree, a MFT mount option would have been nice, but given the much shorter FFD of MFT, a different camera front end from the existing UM Pro would have been required (increasing the cost), and different lens mounts would have been needed. So to keep the cost down, the Broadcast Camera is using the longer FFD turret of the Pro, and can use the same lens mounts (except the included B4 Mount, which uses different optical block from the UM B4 mount). Standardization in some of the camera bits keeps production costs down considerably, allowing use of existing off the shelf parts.

Rakesh, the Veydra Mini Primes and SLR MFT Primes are not going to work with the new Broadcast Camera, FFD is too long. But the new SLR Magic APOs can be used with the PL mount, as well as other nice PL mount S16 lenses.
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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 9:35 pm

Denny Smith wrote:Rakesh, the Veydra Mini Primes and SLR MFT Primes are not going to work with the new Broadcast Camera, FFD is too long. But the new SLR Magic APOs can be used with the PL mount, as well as other nice PL mount S16 lenses.
Cheers


I didn't realize that... what were the mount options that BMD is making available for it? Grant mentioned being able to swap the mount to use SLR primes, but I got interrupted and didn't get to see the whole presentation.
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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 10:46 pm

It will take all of the Ursa Mini Pro mounts, PL, EF and Nikon. If it took MFT, I would be ordering one today! :mrgreen:
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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 10:52 pm

Denny Smith wrote:It will take all of the Ursa Mini Pro mounts, PL, EF and Nikon. If it took MFT, I would be ordering one today! :mrgreen:
Cheers


Yes, me too but I'm happy with servo zooms as they suit most of my international travel work perfectly. I don't suppose the quoted price includes the VF, top handle and shoulder mount? Now that would have put the cat among the pigeons...
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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 10:57 pm

These look like they'd be perfect for events, live streamed or not. It's one of those applications where you CAN use a Red Epic, but have to wonder what's the point?

I like that it's also suitable for filmmaking; it would be a great option to bring out for low-budget clients who don't want to pay for an Epic kit fee...
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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 11:04 pm

There's something very visually appealing about a big ENG camera. I remember in the early 90s as a struggling television production facility, we finally assembeld our first full broadcast ENG camera using a Sony Betacam Recorder, Ikegami camera head and Canon's first internally focusing servo zoom with flip over 2x converter. The camera cost us around $30K but we walked in with it to the ABC offices sat it on the desk: "There it is", we said. Their eyes went wide and the rest was History as they say. We had three of them within a year.
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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 11:12 pm

Craig Marshall wrote:I'm reminded of that line in Blade Runner 2049: "This Changes the World"

https://www.redsharknews.com/production ... -broadcast

c53cd064b6a0217d88df22f81a8815cc_XL.jpg


“We also want to galvanise a new generation of web creators to upgrade,” said Petty. “Why use a DSLR and fumble with that when you can have all the feature set of a professional camera?”

Why indeed!


Because they produce better footage and aren't big enough to whack your self over the head from two feet away, maybe.

It is far too big for everything. They need a compact lens and a compact body version.
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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 11:26 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:Because they produce better footage and aren't big enough to whack your self over the head from two feet away, maybe.

It is far too big for everything. They need a compact lens and a compact body version.


You're funny.

Craig Marshall wrote:There's something very visually appealing about a big ENG camera.


Yeah, sometimes impressing clients is a big plus. It is one up side to showing up on set with an Epic. It does tend to turn a few heads, even though it isn't all that large. :)
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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 11:58 pm

Justin Jackson wrote:So I am trying to read posts and articles as fast as I can.. but apparently not fast enough so Ill ask.

Can this camera be used for film, commercials, etc.. or does it have something in the guts that result in the video not usable for film and such? It seems from what I can gather this is the same sensor their original 4K camera used and/or the studio 4k? Isnt that one known for not having a really good ISO and low light? Hence it would make sense it is targeted more towards use cases that are well lit?

The camera looks spectacular, and I am trying to figure out how much it differs, other than the sensor, from the Ursa Mini Pro that is almost 2x the price?

What is the dynamic range? It also says it can record 12-bit RAW.. can it do that on SD cards? Or is that only for the more or less useless cfast format? If it does work on sdcards, willl we see the same issues of only a couple brands/speeds work, the rest dont? Recording 12-bit raw cinemadng still needs a pretty good continuous write speed. Does it end up using both cards in a raid 0 configuration for 12-bit raw?

Will the new external SSD drive work with this camera too?

I am seriously considering this camera if it will truly record 12-bit raw to sdcard or at least the external add on ssd drive, and has decent iso/low light capability. I can live with it not working in darker situations. I just want or hope for similar quality to the usra mini pro, sans the extra 600K pixels.


It's likely an Aptina related to the one in the microstudio. The number of stops friends on how it is handled and quoted (say in relation to the house floor). So, it can be one more stop to 12 stops, but better Aptina chips had 14 stops 5 years ago, which dropped off depending on how it's handled. So, in this case, greater than 12 bis will help access the hidden stops.

There is some sample zoom footage on the product page.

For shooting film only, you should look at the other 4k mini. Except for low light noise, I think it likely will outdo this, as it has better latitude. But better again, look at the 4.6 or a newer camera.

If BM can open up any extra stops, color, recorded bits and the HDR filming mode for a few extra stops, then I would more consider it.

But Justin somebody finally said it, "Finally". When I saw the pro, and the higher price, I questioned just how much of an eng camera it was. But this is what the pro could have been, at the price the pro could have been. I'm still waiting for the fruit of the BM sensor collaboration. I regard the 4.6k as reasonable. But I am waiting for better at the high end, and the 4.6k sensor technology to come in smaller sizes in the low end.
4/3rds or s16 lower resolution versions would have been good. .
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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostSat Feb 03, 2018 12:03 am

Thanks Rakesh.

I also mean't to re-edit that. When I said better footage, I was referring to latitude etc and the datarate being sufficient for Infront of the camera narrative on the web. The newest 1 inch Sony stills, and many seriousness stills simply have good sensors.
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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostSat Feb 03, 2018 12:07 am

Most of the dSLRs that do video don't have more than 12 stops of dynamic range, and record in some pretty mediocre codecs. And none have a raw option, even with an outboard recorder. Ones with 14+ stops of latitude are the exception (Sony), not the rule...

And BMD's color rendition has a LOT going for it.
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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostSat Feb 03, 2018 12:09 am

Really, I think this camera is more about the "Lens" than about all the nitty-gritty Sensor/DR/Specs that the camera may or may not offer.

Be aware that you can pay up to US$60K for a top shelf Fujinon ENG B4 servo zoom with a 25:1 ratio but if you're searching the second hand market, buy the best Broadcast quality B4 zoom lens you can afford from either Fuji or Canon (make sure you get the model with the 2x Converter on the barrel) and the rest is pretty much academic because your 'picture' will mostly be the result of your command of that lens.

PS: although tempting price wise, avoid the older 'Pro' models without the 2x converter as their optical quality does not stack up against the 'Broadcast' spec versions. The Servo Zoom on the latter is better/quieter/faster/smoother too. Note there are Wide Angle ENG Zooms out there (generally shorter 10:1 ratios) so you might need to get two to cover all your field production requirements.
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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostSat Feb 03, 2018 3:11 am

Is there a link to the modern broadcast spec Craig?
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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostSat Feb 03, 2018 3:19 am

Rakesh Malik wrote:Most of the dSLRs that do video don't have more than 12 stops of dynamic range, and record in some pretty mediocre codecs. And none have a raw option, even with an outboard recorder. Ones with 14+ stops of latitude are the exception (Sony), not the rule...

And BMD's color rendition has a LOT going for it.


Sitting/standing infront of a camera on YouTube for the web with very little datarate hogging motion, is fine for a DSLR that is setup right. If they want to go around refilming Indiana Jones, that's different. But still, as long as you have nice levels and the camera isn't being too taxed, that's ok for many web applications. You could even get the latest 1 inch Sony stills or camcorder, and it's 50+mb/s would be suitable for that sort of web. That sensor is less this one on steroids.
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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostSat Feb 03, 2018 6:17 am

What are the physical dimensions of true ⅔” sensors?


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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostSat Feb 03, 2018 6:31 am

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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostSat Feb 03, 2018 7:09 am

rick.lang wrote:What are the physical dimensions of true ⅔” sensors?


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A better question would be "what the hell does 2/3" refer to?" It's not horizontal, vertical, or diagonal. In fact a 1" sensor has a diagonal of about 16mm, my math isn't great but isn't an inch 25.4ish mm? I think there's some legacy tube math involved. Maybe we should start calling 135 3 inch.
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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostSat Feb 03, 2018 7:38 am

Rick, a 2/3rds sensor in 16:9 is about 9.6x5.4.

The 1/2, 2/3rds, 1-inch sensor designations are not based on the diagonal of the actual sensor size, but rather go back to the days when video cameras used a Vidicon tube instead of CCD or CMOS sensors. The size designation used for vidicon tubes was carried over for 1/2, 2/3, and 1-inch sensors. Nothing to do with the actual sensor size measurements. See below:

When the vidicon tube was invented in the early 1950s, the glass tubing used to make the first units had a nominal exterior diameter of one inch. These were referred to as "One-inch tubes". After allowing for the space taken up by the interior metal structures needed to control the electron beam, the portion of the photoconductor on the front glass accessible for scanning had a diameter of about 5/8 inch. Early television used a raster aspect ratio of 4:3 so the corresponding scanned area was 1/2 inch horizontal by 3/8 inch vertical - the canonic 3:4:5 right triangle. After a while, the image size assumed the name of the tube and a 5/8 inch diagonal raster became commonly called the 1-inch size. 5/8 inch is 15.875 mm and so 16 mm became the designated metric diagonal for 1-inch tubes.


So Howie, 2/3rds refers to a tube width a 2/3rds of an inch vidicon tube, which then became three, 2//3rds CCD sensors in ENG cameras (that you and I are familiar with), and each sensor being about the same size as the raster area inside the old vidicon 2/3 tubes.
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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostSat Feb 03, 2018 8:02 am

I have been looking listings like this for long time https://www.ebay.com/itm/Canon-15x-9-5- ... SwEEBaN8zK thinking I should get one to test with the micro cameras.

It says
"USE WITH 2x EXTENDER ON LENS (INCLUDED) TO PROVIDE FULL COVERAGE OF THE MICRO 4/3 SENSOR WITH NO VIGNETTING
With the 2x extender engaged, the zoom range is 19-285mm and the "35mm Equivalent" zoom range is 38-570mm.
Can also be used in 1x (without the extender) on the GH2 in 1:1 crop mode with no image degradation:
(In 1:1 or 2.7x crop mode the "crop factor" relative to 35mm is 5.2x)
In 1:1 crop mode and the lens in 1x, the "35mm Equivalent" zoom range is 49-741mm.
In 1:1 crop mode and the lens in 2x, the "35mm Equivalent" zoom range is 98-1482mm. "

And comes with MFT adapter and these are typically around 400 euros, so not too bad for par-focal 15x zoom range f1.8 lens with silent and smooth zoom control and step-less f-stop.

BTW the teleconverter trick works optically great also with full frame camera, fitting a crop sensor lens. The only problem is that focus does not work great, but that is a different story...

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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostSat Feb 03, 2018 12:57 pm

rick.lang wrote:What are the physical dimensions of true ⅔” sensors?


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Really Small, a bit bigger than s8 I think. Both are small anyway, nowhere near 2/3rd inch. It's really not good enough. But we have charts like in Wikipedia anyway.

1 inch is interesting. They should have made a pocket with a 1 inch latter version of this sensor. But as the broadcast doesn't have it, I doubt we will get it in a pocket soon.

Somebody tell me please there is a way to get 14 stops and 16 stops HDR out of this sensor. That would make a great pocket. Doesn't matter if it has gradable 4:2:2 pores.
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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostSat Feb 03, 2018 5:53 pm

Kim, first this is a “kit” SD lens used in lower end cameras, so resolving power is not going to be great on a HD enacted even less on 4K sensor. The dumb (no optical correction block) MFT adapter is going to give you lots of CA with this lens also, so it will need to be stopped down to f/5.6-8 (with tele extender you loose another stop). To get the best results, you need a MFT/B4 adsoter corrected for the camera sensor size you are using. In your case a S16/1-inch sensor, MTF and Abel Cine both make a nice optically corrected adapter (the BM B4 mounts for the UM and new Broadcast Camera are optically corrected), that also expands the projected image circle (basically a tele converter set at 1.5X), and you only loose about 1/2 stop and can shoot the B4 lens wide open, without CA.

That said, these adapters are around $1500, so might as well get a HD B4 lens for $900-1200 to get the most out of it.
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Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostSat Feb 03, 2018 5:54 pm

Craig, thanks for the Wikipedia link. It list ⅔” sensors from Fujinon as
11mm diagonal
8.8mm horizontal
6.6mm vertical.

The reason I was asking is the dreaded crop factor of the field of view must disregard the Broadcast camera sensor size. Even though the sensor is 13.056mm, the image is expanded from that ⅔” sensor width of roughly 9.6mm (16:9) so the FOV crop should be about 3.75x compared to 135 film. My earlier post #19 was wrong. Now corrected.


Denny, the dimensions you posted were larger than what Wikipedia mentions. Any comment?


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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostSat Feb 03, 2018 6:07 pm

Rick, the 2/3rds sensor size reference you gave is for a 4:3 aspect ratio, so in 16.9, your horizontal is closer to 9.5mm, and width is less (about 5.4) giving the same diagonal of 11mm. Working with a round raster area, instead of a rectangle sensor, the vidicon tube was the first multi-aspect sensor, keeping the same 11mm diagonal on a 2/3rds tube.

To get a true comparison between the different sensors, you need to set them at the same aspect ratio, so 135mm in 16:9 would be closer to 36x20.3 to get a comparable diagonal, or just work from the horizontal measurement only.
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Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostSat Feb 03, 2018 6:48 pm

Ah,thanks. Now I’ll have to correct two posts using your dimensions! With BMD B4 Optical
Mount, the crop is about 3.75x when shooting 16:9. Normal would be 13.3mm focal length, so with 12mm or 14mm fine.


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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostSat Feb 03, 2018 7:00 pm

No you don’t Rick, just qualify them as 4:3 aspect ratio comparisons. :roll:
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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostSat Feb 03, 2018 9:29 pm

OK but from a Broadcaster's perspective, can we safely assume that if we buy the new BMD camera and fit our legacy HD B4 ENG lenses, our camera operators will experience the same Field of View that they currently enjoy using our aging 3 CCD prism cameras?

It would be a pity if we lost our much loved 'wide end' of our ENG servo zoom, given the price we've paid for high quality HD spec zooms.

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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostSat Feb 03, 2018 9:56 pm

I think you can safely assume any HD Fujinon will be virtually the same field of view that you’re accustomed to. The Fujinon HA20x7.8B that I have also covers 2K on the 4.6K sensor which is how I record for HD delivery.


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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostSat Feb 03, 2018 10:01 pm

That's good to hear. Assuming you bought your HA20x second hand? What sort of price point?
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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostSat Feb 03, 2018 10:35 pm

Oh, Craig, you do not want to know, it will make your cry! Rick got a very good deal, and he also got a Chrosziel AC-102-13 DSLR Fluid Zoom Drive control lever free with the lens! However, Rick’s Fuji is a Cine version, no servos, but the AC102 MGI SE him the same smooth manual zooms, and it makes a great follow focus.
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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostSun Feb 04, 2018 1:38 am

I do remember reference to that now. And yes, I will burst into tears!! (whoever sold it will Rue the Day, as they say...)

Gee I miss those lenses. I remember once shooting an off-road motor rally in the coastal rainforests of Papua New Guinea entirely from an agile Hughes 500 helicopter. The ex-Nam pilot managed to fly me backward/sideways/below the tree line whilst looking across my shoulder to keep my lens pointed directly at the action which seemed only yards away. When I yelled to him, "There's a tree up there!" he simply replied, "You watch the Rally, I'll watch the Trees!"

Fair enough but only in New Guinea.... where the Clouds are full of Trees, there are more Missing Aircraft than any other Country and Missionary owned Aircraft carry the sign: 'God is my Pilot'

How I survived 10 years up there, I'll never know...
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Re: Finally, a proper ENG camera from BMD?

PostSun Feb 04, 2018 5:03 am

If only they used the 14mp 1inch, the 2/3rds circle would be closer to UHD.

So, BM should supply optically expansive converters with the camera. But somebody might supply one cheaply. There are a few inch cameras that could use it.

But, what about, an option to use Nikon 1/other series lens (I don't know if Sony made a series of lens) which used the same 1 inch sensor. Along with a rocker control attachment. This would be a low end attachment that could be used with the pocket. Maybe there is a suitable pocket controller version already.
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