A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

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Krishna Pada

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A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostSun Feb 11, 2018 7:07 am

Because it's time.

With Arri finally coming up with Alexa LF and Red already into the above super-35 domain, when can we expect BMD to come up with a full-frame camera?

More lowlight capability should be the new order.
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rick.lang

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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostSun Feb 11, 2018 8:45 pm

Krishna, i like the wording of your query. Red offers their take on VistaVision in 8K, but I think you and I prefer ARRI’s approach with a 4.5K camera with their fat 8.25 micron photosites. BMD could go with their current 5.5 micron photosites in a 6K camera which has some advantages in improving the colour and detail, but stepping up to larger photosites and redesigned circuits to maximize the well and increase dynamic range are highly desirable. I suspect a 6K could arrive before fatter photosites.


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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostTue Feb 13, 2018 7:57 am

rick.lang wrote:Krishna, i like the wording of your query. Red offers their take on VistaVision in 8K, but I think you and I prefer ARRI’s approach with a 4.5K camera with their fat 8.25 micron photosites. BMD could go with their current 5.5 micron photosites in a 6K camera which has some advantages in improving the colour and detail, but stepping up to larger photosites and redesigned circuits to maximize the well and increase dynamic range are highly desirable. I suspect a 6K could arrive before fatter photosites.


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Yeah that's interesting Rick!
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rick.lang

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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostTue Feb 13, 2018 1:07 pm

Then again, if there is a fatter photosite in the works, it might be interesting and easy for a lot of the firmware and post software if BMD stayed with the same 4608x2592 dimensions but has a custom chip built with 8 micron photosites. This would give them another stop of dynamic range as the electron well would be more than twice the size of the current 4.6K design. The resulting 16:9 sensor would still use all lenses with image circles that cover ‘full frame’ and have a horizontal dimension of about 36.6mm.

This would be a very costly move though if it were a custom chip. If I was president, I wouldn’t spend all that money without actually redesigning the electronics on the chip to again improve the actual photosensitive surface area to possibly squeeze out another half stop of dynamic range.

The other option might be to take a stab at one of the dual ISO chip designs if the design team thought that a better direction.

These would be big steps to take on the best sensors available without compromise, but might not be justified given current market penetration. Would their market accept the increased cost of the sensor?



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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostTue Feb 13, 2018 6:08 pm

Dual gain/ISO sensor design is an interesting idea Rick, and Panasonic is using this in both the EVA1 and the new GH5S, and from what I have seen from the GH5S, with its 12MP large photosites, the color and dynamic range is looking good. A sensor like this new Sony sensor (used in the GH5S) might be just the ticket.
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostTue Feb 13, 2018 6:23 pm

Dual ISO would almost certainly be a better value for BMD customers.

The fact that a lot of Netflix productions are being shot on Varicams lends support to that -- plus the fact that the Venice has a dual ISO option on its road map also.

The only real benefit in a bigger sensor for BMD at this point would be the PR.

Besides, if you think a bigger sensor is going to improve your chances at getting hired, you probably need to work on your craft... a lot.

It's not going to make your films better, it's going to require different lenses, and it will make deep focus harder to achieve. It's pretty much contradictory to the practical needs of low budget filmmaking... but more sensitivity and dynamic range make it easier to stretch less light farther, which is an asset to low budget filmmaking.
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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostTue Feb 13, 2018 6:38 pm

Rakesh Malik wrote:Dual ISO would almost certainly be a better value for BMD customers.

The fact that a lot of Netflix productions are being shot on Varicams lends support to that -- plus the fact that the Venice has a dual ISO option on its road map also.

The only real benefit in a bigger sensor for BMD at this point would be the PR.

Besides, if you think a bigger sensor is going to improve your chances at getting hired, you probably need to work on your craft... a lot.

It's not going to make your films better, it's going to require different lenses, and it will make deep focus harder to achieve. It's pretty much contradictory to the practical needs of low budget filmmaking... but more sensitivity and dynamic range make it easier to stretch less light farther, which is an asset to low budget filmmaking.


This.

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Howard Roll

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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostTue Feb 13, 2018 7:00 pm

Agreed. BM jumped way ahead of the pack several years ago offering amazing picture quality and high quality codecs. Other manufacturers have caught on and they got the message; dynamic range, 10 bit, log, raw, high bit rates, check. High ISO performance is going to be the new dynamic range.
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Tommaso Alvisi

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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostTue Feb 13, 2018 7:45 pm

Howard Roll wrote:Agreed. BM jumped way ahead of the pack several years ago offering amazing picture quality and high quality codecs. Other manufacturers have caught on and they got the message; dynamic range, 10 bit, log, raw, high bit rates, check. High ISO performance is going to be the new dynamic range.


I'd say it's the opposite...DR is going to be the new high iso performance... 8-)
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostTue Feb 13, 2018 8:52 pm

Tommaso Alvisi wrote:
I'd say it's the opposite...DR is going to be the new high iso performance... 8-)


Yes. High ISO performance won't sell well if it requires a dynamic range tradeoff.

Besides, I'm shooting mainly at ISO 800 these days, and I was able to light a night scene with a single 2K light through a 10x15 silk. ISO 800 should be enough for most situations if the image is clean enough.
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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostWed Feb 14, 2018 12:18 am

Tommaso Alvisi wrote:
Howard Roll wrote:Agreed. BM jumped way ahead of the pack several years ago offering amazing picture quality and high quality codecs. Other manufacturers have caught on and they got the message; dynamic range, 10 bit, log, raw, high bit rates, check. High ISO performance is going to be the new dynamic range.


I'd say it's the opposite...DR is going to be the new high iso performance... 8-)

Right, this forum is clogged with people complaining that BM cameras don't have enough DR, yet all is quiet on the FPN and noise front ;). There is a threshold where enough is good enough. DR is like the K race, at a certain point it's academic and the true appeal is for people who spend more time comparing paper specs than images. What good is 20 stops if half of them are below the noise floor in any shooting environment other than broad daylight?
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostWed Feb 14, 2018 12:43 am

Howard Roll wrote:Right, this forum is clogged with people complaining that BM cameras don't have enough DR


Which is actually quite amusing since the 4.6K cameras have just about the same dynamic range as an Arri Alexa, Red's Dragon cameras, and Sony's CineAltas. And the new Varicam 35 and LT, and even the C700...

... and plenty of folks are making great stuff with all of them.

Actually, there are people making great stuff with the 4.6K also, who don't have any problems with FPN.

I suspect that a lot of the FPN problems have been a result of pushing the exposure farther in post than is ideal, rather than due to camera limitations. These are cinema cameras made for people who want to craft compelling images without shelling out Redbux, not no-light cameras for people who would rather brag about their ability to get an adequate exposure with nearly no light.
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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostWed Feb 14, 2018 1:35 am

You both have hit the nail square on my friends. :!:
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Savannah Miller

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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostWed Feb 14, 2018 7:10 am

I want fatter photosites more than anything, but I feel like the sensor will become "too big" to keep up with the resolution of other cameras, and as a result will require more expensive cinema glass or at least full-frame stills glass which is not the market Blackmagic wants to be in. If Blackmagic could get their ISO performance within the realm of the C200 or Kinefinity Terra 4K and maintain the same look and dynamic range as their 4.6K, offer an inter-frame compressed codec for quick turnaround jobs, and maybe some sort of continuous autofocus then they will have created the perfect camera for the market they're trying to sell their cameras to. And maybe it wouldn't hurt to shrink the camera a small amount as it's still slightly too big.

Low light I feel like is not a huge issue with blackmagic, but most of the outside people who criticize it are used to modern cameras which generally are much better these days. Continuous Autofocus I assume is very difficult to make and I'm not sure if that's something that Blackmagic even wants to attempt.

A slow motion camera from Blackmagic that does high quality 500fps or something similar would be interesting as their quirky cameras such as pocket and micro cameras do quite well and are often used in big productions, but I feel like the market for such a camera is probably too small.

The biggest video market in the world these days is YouTube, and if they could make the ultimate YouTube camera that would sell at ridiculously high volumes that might be a good avenue to give them the capital necessary to develop convenience features such as auto exposure, autofocus, stabilizaton, etc. that they can implement into their higher line of cameras too.
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostWed Feb 14, 2018 7:56 am

There's no reason for BMD to waste resources keeping up with the competition as far as resolution, if you are referring to Red. Red's been designing sensors for years, far longer than BMD, and there are a lot of reasons that Red cameras lead the pack in technology and also cost so much.

Continuous autofocus would be a waste of time to develop. I think that most of the people who want autofocus in cinema cameras don't understand what focus pulling is for.

Autoexposure is also a waste of time for a cinema camera. BMD might be charging amateur rates for its products, but they're designed around professional use. Autoexposure, autofocus, that sort of autocrap isn't for professional use. Artists don't want their cameras doing their thinking for them, because the camera usually doesn't know what you want it to do, and it will attempt to do what the engineers think it should... which usually ends up being the least artistically expressive option available.

Given what features the Ursa Mini has right now, it's pretty compact. Sure it's bigger than an Epic, but look at an Epic after you add an XLR module to it.

BMD could probably develop a 500fps camera if it believed that there was a good business justification for doing so. It might be hard to justify though, given that it would be a specialty item, so it would end up costing a fair bit more than its market segment would be willing to spend. Maybe BMD will continue working its way up the price chain, and launch a $15,000 camera. Naturally, it would have a lot of features that people are complaining about not having now, but then you'll see lots of complaints about its excessive price... never mind that an Epic-W costs $30,000 for just the brain... no monitor, lens mount, battery plate... and if you're looking at BMD's price point, don't even bother pricing an Alexa LF.


I think you must not be aware of all of the other things that BMD sells, or how many of them it sells. I've heard about single sales involving 30,000 units... BMD isn't short on revenue or sales.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostWed Feb 14, 2018 8:12 am

30,000 to Chinese, Indian, Brazilian or Russian state TV?

The word going around is Red has doing some deal with Foxconn to do 8k consumer cameras and reduce the price by 2/3rds. Looks like BM is playing the wrong game by going upmarket. Those bunch are talking upmarket 3D camera. Looks like they are planning to come into BM territory. BM has little option but to outdo them or undercut. Seems the affordable option is to undercut. Seems Red's version of consumer is expensive. Phones starting at $1200US basic 3D camera, and nice 3D screen, plus whatever these cinema modules are going to cost. This sort of camera us more ideal at Several hundred dollars Australian. Plenty of room underneath them.

Red believes in going big.
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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostWed Feb 14, 2018 8:17 am

Rakesh Malik wrote:
Howard Roll wrote:Right, this forum is clogged with people complaining that BM cameras don't have enough DR


Which is actually quite amusing since the 4.6K cameras have just about the same dynamic range as an Arri Alexa, Red's Dragon cameras, and Sony's CineAltas. And the new Varicam 35 and LT, and even the C700...

... and plenty of folks are making great stuff with all of them.

Actually, there are people making great stuff with the 4.6K also, who don't have any problems with FPN.

I suspect that a lot of the FPN problems have been a result of pushing the exposure farther in post than is ideal, rather than due to camera limitations. These are cinema cameras made for people who want to craft compelling images without shelling out Redbux, not no-light cameras for people who would rather brag about their ability to get an adequate exposure with nearly no light.


Well, sort of, but less than Dragon, less than helium. Also the images on even the dragon are clearly better to me. The 4.6k image is pocket replacement territory. Give a good production looking for best, than Arri as an old time girlfriend, or Helium comes to mind. I love the pocketable image, but it's not the same, and above 800 iso the old mini is not the same.
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Tommaso Alvisi

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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostWed Feb 14, 2018 9:40 am

Howard Roll wrote:What good is 20 stops if half of them are below the noise floor in any shooting environment other than broad daylight?


That's not actual DR then...we are saying a similar things...the difference it's just that I think total *USABLE* DR including HL protection and rolloff is more important nowadays than seeing in the dark a la A7S/A7SM2 prioritizing low light sensitivity but sacrificing total DR for this kind or market segment.

I've never used anything more than 800/1600 ISO on any camera and/or any job, and on my UM46K or my RED I've NEVER seen FPN or excessive noise.

I use a meter tho... 8-)

BUT I could have absolutely used more DR in quite a bit of shoots with huge locations where balancing light was impossible, especially with the *somewhat* harsh default highlights rolloff of the UM46K (compared to Alexa and RED IPP2)!
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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostWed Feb 14, 2018 10:37 am

There is a minimum source illuminant that has nothing to do with DR, just because X camera has Y stops of dynamic range. Light a scene with 10FC and while your camera may be perfectly capable of reproducing 15 stops in a well (properly) lit environment in a low light environment it may be only reproducing 3 or 4 because most of the signal is buried below the noise floor. If I had the choice between adding 2 stops of sensitivity (assuming industry standard 12-14ish stops) or 2 stops of DR I'd take sensitivity. Specifically I see an Ursa with a native iso of 3200 a far more interesting proposition than one with 2 more stops of DR.

It wouldn't be the internet if we all agreed.
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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostWed Feb 14, 2018 10:51 am

Howard Roll wrote:Specifically I see an Ursa with a native iso of 3200 a far more interesting proposition than one with 2 more stops of DR.


You work for a filter manufacturer then! ;) Just joking but I see your point, for some kind of productions (documentaries for example) could be useful absolutely, I agree with you, but then in real world with a native 3200iso sensor and with current DR (still limited imho and absolutely not 15 useable stops @ 800) you'll then often loose details in the highlights (light bulbs/light coming from outside/etc etc) and with an ugly and abrupt cutoff.

Now...after we get 15/16 USEABLE stops @ 800 maybe I could take a 1600 native sensor why not...
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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostWed Feb 14, 2018 12:36 pm

Blackmagic is NOT going upmarket. I'm pretty sure they stated that they no longer had interest in competing with the high end cinema market and were focusing exclusively on the prosumer market.

I think that autofocus is useful because the Dual Pixel AF on the Canon line of cameras is beyond incredible and for serious work it's a lifesaver on gimbal/steadicam tracking situations. It looks very smooth and natural and when face tracking is better than any First AC or dedicated focus puller. This is one feature that would fit solidly into the single shooter/mid-tier market. It's the only feature that Canon has that mainly separates their cameras from everyone else on the market. It was probably very expensive to develop this tech (as no one has a system that's remotely close) and it paid off due to the volumes of cameras they sell.

I do believe that the reason RED makes 8K cameras is because they want a monopoly over the high-end cinema market, so by having patents on their redcode raw technology and convincing everyone that you need to be shooting 8K as it's "futureproof," they will be the only ones able to deliver a camera that can easily do that. I feel like they can't win over DP's based on the look of their images alone so they try to achieve higher numbers than anyone else. Remember the time they tried to claim to have captured 20 stops of DR on the dragon sensor?
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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostWed Feb 14, 2018 1:29 pm

Do you remember the prices BM used to charge? Now even the Mini has an expensive version. it's already has happened. But Red is crashing the party.

Red patents on raw, please. Cineform did raw wavelet before Red and a licence is $20 a camera
There is a codec standard the technology too. But normal cineform video implementation is free now.

Even that ambarella company apparently has cheap 8k video camera chips. It is not new. The market just tries to market like it's cuttting edge. If it was cutting edge, ambarella couldn't do such a chip.
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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostWed Feb 14, 2018 4:18 pm

Rakesh Malik wrote:Continuous autofocus would be a waste of time to develop. I think that most of the people who want autofocus in cinema cameras don't understand what focus pulling is for.

Autoexposure is also a waste of time for a cinema camera. BMD might be charging amateur rates for its products, but they're designed around professional use. Autoexposure, autofocus, that sort of autocrap isn't for professional use. Artists don't want their cameras doing their thinking for them, because the camera usually doesn't know what you want it to do, and it will attempt to do what the engineers think it should... which usually ends up being the least artistically expressive option available.


How many buyers of cameras at these popular prices are engaged in old-school, industrial-level production? The Canon C-series is expensive by BMD standards, and doesn't represent the best in image quality, and yet these cameras sell, thanks to ease of use and features like excellent autofocus and tracking. And they're used on far more film festival-type productions than BMD cameras.

This is the market, like it or not. Making cinema is not profitable and is less so today than ever. If production can't be done cheaply, outside the traditional industry model, it won't be done at all.
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A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostWed Feb 14, 2018 9:11 pm

Wonderful discussion.

Life is long, but time is short.

Life’s long
By that I mean there’s no need to achieve one’s goals instantly or even very quickly. Someone who has a simple goal of becoming a millionaire at 25 could well be broke at 30. As this discussion exemplifies, there are no simple goals in this here universe and no one feels compelled to set an arbitrarily brief horizon such as “in five years” to achieve their complex goals.

Looking back to 2012 and the BMCC2.5K and ahead five years to 2017 and the UMP4.6K, we have seen these instances along the path of achieving BMD’s goals, but those goals have nothing to do with resolution or frame rates or sensitivity or codecs or dynamic range or miniaturization or automation per se. Besides the obvious goal of remaining in business, we are privileged to be passengers on a voyage where the captain’s goals are both complex and clear and motivated by a desire to make the tools we use both attainable and suitable for our purposes to create or at least to capture beauty.

The AK47 is still an amazingly resilient and reliable and inexpensive tool that must be respected for its suitability to kill people. It’s a decades old invention that rules the world and has to be considered a success from anyone’s perspective that uses it. How blessed we all are that we can go through our life shooting people with BMD’s tools as we create the record of life as the legacy of our long lives.

Time’s fleeting
Although life is long, we here especially also know how fleeting time can be. How an opportunity can present itself today but if we wait a day to seize it, it can disappear. A glance that is punctuated with a smile or a goodnight kiss that becomes an embrace never to be forgotten or a birth that becomes everything you cherish.

When you hesitate to jump through the doors of a subway as they close on that smile, never seen quite that way again. When you part after that kiss almost as if you’re afraid of the embrace that might matter more than you can know. When the child is no longer your centre with everything else that defines your priorities. These things that were there are gone in another moment or gone in a year or gone in our long life, but for a fleeting moment, we held them.

In the 60s, it was “make love, not war.” For us who were young then, it’s always been good advice. That’s what we’re all about here. It was a crude turn of phrase, but it resonates and infuses our actions and activities well
beyond its original intention: a wildflower planted in a rifle barrel. Let that infuse our decisions. Let the flowers of love flowing from our garden of tools bring all of us to beauty and truth. If only for a moment or for a lifetime.

That’s what drives BMD. To bring to everyone what they need to do what they must do. It’s never a perfect path to travel on, skies aren’t always sunny, nights warm. Thankfully, life is long, but time is short.






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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 12:50 am

Anyone else feel like 2017 was a great year for cameras? The Ursa Mini Pro fixed many of the complaints that people had with the original 4.6k and they really delivered. C200 shocked everyone by offering internal raw with the c700 sensor. The new Kinefinity Terra 4K has largely fixed the issues they've had with their previous cameras as well. Amazing form factor, minimal rolling shutter, very good low light sensitivity, reduced chromatic aberration issues. This is easily the best camera Kinefinity has ever put out but it's kinda sad because their 6K terra is their top-of-the-line camera yet this one is much better.
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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 1:30 am

Rick you are indeed a poet. Beautifully put.
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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 2:57 am

John Paines wrote:
Rakesh Malik wrote:Continuous autofocus would be a waste of time to develop. I think that most of the people who want autofocus in cinema cameras don't understand what focus pulling is for.

Autoexposure is also a waste of time for a cinema camera. BMD might be charging amateur rates for its products, but they're designed around professional use. Autoexposure, autofocus, that sort of autocrap isn't for professional use. Artists don't want their cameras doing their thinking for them, because the camera usually doesn't know what you want it to do, and it will attempt to do what the engineers think it should... which usually ends up being the least artistically expressive option available.


How many buyers of cameras at these popular prices are engaged in old-school, industrial-level production? The Canon C-series is expensive by BMD standards, and doesn't represent the best in image quality, and yet these cameras sell, thanks to ease of use and features like excellent autofocus and tracking. And they're used on far more film festival-type productions than BMD cameras.

This is the market, like it or not. Making cinema is not profitable and is less so today than ever. If production can't be done cheaply, outside the traditional industry model, it won't be done at all.


Yes, Rakesh. You just insulted most professionals for elitest cinema crowd. In REAL production these features matter, push to everything, so you can concentrate tracking real time, live, hopefully no retakes (which means something wasn't done right the first time, and your wasting time). But continuous auto focus is a pain, unless it's done really well.
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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 6:12 am

Donnell Henry wrote:Rick you are indeed a poet. Beautifully put.

I will second that. Grand job Rick! :mrgreen:
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 6:40 am

Wayne Steven wrote:Yes, Rakesh. You just insulted most professionals for elitest cinema crowd. In REAL production these features matter, push to everything, so you can concentrate tracking real time, live, hopefully no retakes (which means something wasn't done right the first time, and your wasting time). But continuous auto focus is a pain, unless it's done really well.


I didn't insult anyone. You did, by claiming that people with small crews aren't doing real production.

If you don't have the budget and time to rehearse and practice complicated moving shots, simplify them. A lot of independent filmmakers try to make up for a lack of craft by replacing it with unnecessarily complicated camera moves and making things harder on themselves.
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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 9:14 am

Well I didn't say that did I. Most real professional work is live with hardly any rehearsals. You don't seem to see it for the clouds. Most professional work is not cinema. Having a camera which for a few dollars of jobs and software more can also suite other professional markets, makes for higher production runs and lower cost for lower priced or better cameras. But no, people have to think life has to be grand, for a market that can't support most of them, leaving most with ugly over priced prosumer cameras as the option. Consumer cameras archieve even better runs at lower costs. So, a camera that has 10-100x higher manufacture run can be an incredible camera for the price. If you don't want auto anything, turn it off. If you are clever, you will push auto temporarily then manually fine tune in the feild on foot.
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Savannah Miller

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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 10:49 am

If I remember correctly RED does have a few patents as to how they compress and record their video which protect other people from doing the same thing. They can record 2:1 or 2.5:1 and still maintain a mathematically lossless image which is something you cannot do with Cineform. Because RED has created an custom interface for every software they're able to integrate their custom codec very well. Really RED is the only solution for doing 8K+ video as their codec compresses very efficiently even compared to cineform. The new show Altered Carbon for Netflix was just 5K Arriraw and they were shooting 7TB a day which cost them tons of money in both storage and overtime transfering footage. 6K and beyond would be a nightmare.

I feel like RED isn't winning people over on their images so they try to corner every top spec they can and try to convince the masses that you NEED 16-bit and 8K video and that their cameras have a useable 20 stops of DR. At which point they're the only ones that can logically deliver that. Go to their forums and ask if Redcode is true 16-bit and they will say, "Yes! Of course!" Then ask them how they manage to get 16 bits worth of video into a 12 bit file size and their lips will go silent. I feel like reading that forum is reading the forum of an occult where all they do is trash other cameras as "unusable" and proclaim their cameras to be the "best value on the market." When people start threads claiming their Toshiba SSD's are overpriced, people start calling Jarred a god and claiming that their pricing is honest and fair.

I feel like Blackmagic's next move should be to produce a camera that would sell at higher volumes giving them more money to develop new tech that can be implemented into their future cameras to come. If they plan on leaving the high-end market and focusing on the mid-tier range, higher ISO sensitivity and autofocus are the only features that would make the their next-gen camera undoubtedly the best camera for every scenario and own the mid-range market.
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Uli Plank

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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 11:59 am

Well, they don't own Wavelet, which is at the core of their compression.
They probably just own some details on how they apply it to thei RAW.
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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 12:18 pm

They likely pay GoPro royalities on cineform technology. The first redcode was jpeg2k based I understand. Computational jpeg2k wise was very undesirable. Subsequently I think they licensed cineform technology, and it became much more workable. Whatever they put in is their own.

Now, 2:1-2.5:1 is in the ball park of non wavelet codecs, and in 16 bit 8k, I would have thought that low. It is what cineform should be able to archieve. But step back and realise a lot of the time people don't need lossless, but cineform 4:1-6:1 should be pretty good. I imagine cineform was also not set up to give maximum lossless compression oresdion ratios in order to keep processing need down (which is best for BM cameras), but good compression ratio on near lossless to visually lossless, which is what we want on working images often. But even you cinema normally gives you lossless, or maybe not even visually lossless (but I can't remember the figures, and they may have changed by now).

16 bit in 12 bit space. How it works us that those extra 4 bits of precision on a wave don't require so much extra data. You are fiddling with the fidelity of the wave so now you use a bit larger numbers to describe the wave then before. HDR jpeg also got great file sizes for 16 bit compared to 12 bit.

I'm pretty sure there is a guy outside f Red that has contributed a lot to compression understanding too.

They are fallible like us. They are not Gods. If I have to ride in a chariot next to Jim Jannard whispering in his ear, you are not a God, you are not a God, like they did with returning victorious Roman Emperors. I could do it. But I don't think he thinks that. But there are a lot of people sucking up in those circles I would not trust though.
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Johan Cramer

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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 12:28 pm

This whole discussion is rather academic, because Blackmagic does not design its own sensors, but buys off-the-shelf sensors that are freely available on the market. (Which excludes, btw., most sensors built into mainstream video and photo cameras.) I'm not aware of any full frame sensors that you can currently buy off-the-shelf.
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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 12:33 pm

BM paid 10 Milion to get the 4.6k sensor done, we hear. Which I don't think was best. They may have been offered the sensors themselves cheaper from this. I've had a similar offer myself, but as I wanted a custom with my own designs, I didn't think it was a good deal that they owned it after I paid for it to my own unique design structure.
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 12:49 pm

The supplier of the mini 4k chip can do better custom designs, and there is at least one other. There also was an EU sensor patent portfolio with great technology. But, the new 1 inch sensor technology being used in Sony cameras probably blows a lot of things away. Getting hold of Sony or Aptina higher quality sensors is desirable, but who controls Aptina's advanced technology which is cross licensed with Sony?

However, Red seems to be moving to cheap 8k consumer cameras, from a recent article. So, in future I would say, undercut them and get hold of Sony and Aptina chips to do it. They have been shrinking the sub $2995 range just when they should be moving to it to undercut the competition. It is amazing how people after decades don't understand how the related target markets work. It is not like the pro market one has been in, it's far worse and different. It requires different understanding and tactics.

The move with the 4.6k is interesting. I imagine the plan was to make more sensors based on the technology. But the reality is the future market needs those sensors in the space the present Aptina commdity sensors are (micro studio, mini broadcast). In the future we are likely to see helium level 8k sensors in the market above $2k, even better ones again. What does that say for the 4.6k?
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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 3:15 pm

A sensor with identical specs to the 4.6K sensor is now on the market which makes me believe the company that designed the sensor is now selling the sensor (or at least some form of it) to make their money back a little bit. Probably similar to the deal you were offered. How expensive generally is it to design a sensor and how do you know what to expect as far as DR and low light performance?
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Donnell Henry

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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 5:11 pm

Savannah what sensor has identical specs to the 4.6k sensor? I’m curious to know. My 2 cents here would be that we’ll see some sort of 6k sensor with slightly better Dr maybe between 15-16.5 stops. Better highlight roll off to rival arri’s before we see a full frame sensor from BM ..not saying it won’t happen in the future. But I don’t believe they’re going to chase that at this point.
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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 5:19 pm

Thanks for the kind words, Donnell and Denny. Now back to our knitting.


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Rakesh Malik

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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 5:46 pm

Donnell Henry wrote:Savannah what sensor has identical specs to the 4.6k sensor? I’m curious to know.


There's a Fairchild Imaging sensor that looks very similar on paper to BMD's 4.6K sensor. I suspect that BMD's version has a custom CFA though.
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Donnell Henry

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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 5:54 pm

Rakesh Malik wrote:
Donnell Henry wrote:Savannah what sensor has identical specs to the 4.6k sensor? I’m curious to know.


There's a Fairchild Imaging sensor that looks very similar on paper to BMD's 4.6K sensor. I suspect that BMD's version has a custom CFA though.


Rakesh, Savannah says it’s on the market..
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Donnell Henry

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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 5:55 pm

rick.lang wrote:Thanks for the kind words, Donnell and Denny. Now back to our knitting.


You’re welcome rick. Yes back to knitting :D
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 6:14 pm

Donnell Henry wrote:
Rakesh Malik wrote:
Donnell Henry wrote:Savannah what sensor has identical specs to the 4.6k sensor? I’m curious to know.


There's a Fairchild Imaging sensor that looks very similar on paper to BMD's 4.6K sensor. I suspect that BMD's version has a custom CFA though.


Rakesh, Savannah says it’s on the market..


No, she she said she found an "identical" sensor on the market... it has most of the same specs, but customizations like CFA specs are pretty normal in sensor manufacturing. Fujifilm has a custom CFA for its medium format Sony sensor, for example, so even though the rest of the specs would lead one to believe that it's identical to the Sony sensor in the Pentax and Hasselblad 50 megapixel medium format cameras, the color gamut is different.

So like I said, it's probably not quite the same product.
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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 9:09 pm

Oh ok gotcha rakesh. I understand now
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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostThu Feb 15, 2018 9:41 pm

All I see from people on the web, talking about low light and "K"s, is that digital tech has brought good cameras to the masses and most people don't know how to use them. So much trash is on the web about BM not having low light performance. There is a difference between "no light" and "low light". I've used UMP at night in the streets and the results are great. I can't be any happier with this camera. I just get the feeling people can't light a scene and can't compose a frame. So they need 2 million ISO, 100 stops of DR and 50k images so they can reframe, even out the tones and never think of lighting.

BTW, great analysis by Steve Yedlin about resolution at the bottom of the page: https://nofilmschool.com/2017/08/yedlin ... tion-myths . I recommend to download and watch the 2 part video.
:)

btw, RED's only game is to market resolution. In no way are their cameras better than Arri.
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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostFri Feb 16, 2018 6:31 am

The 4.6K sensor is designed by BMD, but it’s certainly based on that off-the-shelf sensor. I wouldn’t be surprised if BMD has them build a 6K sensor with the same design. But as mentioned earlier, a 4.6K sensor with newly designed 8 micron photosites would be very serious competition to the ARRI Alexa LF.


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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostFri Feb 16, 2018 6:38 am

Would rather BMD make sure another S16 camera like BMPCC / BMMCC than develop a new FF35 camera
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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostFri Feb 16, 2018 7:00 am

David Peterson wrote:Would rather BMD make sure another S16 camera like BMPCC / BMMCC than develop a new FF35 camera


They just did. Do you mean another new S16 camera other than the one they released 2 weeks ago? Me too.
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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostFri Feb 16, 2018 7:07 am

Vess Stoytchev wrote:..btw, RED's only game is to market resolution. In no way are their cameras better than Arri.


Let's see them produce as great a performance in sensor pads the size of the ones in the helium 8k.
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Re: A full-frame Blackmagic Camera?

PostFri Feb 16, 2018 7:32 am

Savannah Miller wrote:A sensor with identical specs to the 4.6K sensor is now on the market which makes me believe the company that designed the sensor is now selling the sensor (or at least some form of it) to make their money back a little bit. Probably similar to the deal you were offered. How expensive generally is it to design a sensor and how do you know what to expect as far as DR and low light performance?



Sorry for the delay. I don't know nies days. I think one quote somebody I knew was a quarter a million to get his color filter array designed.

My chip application was for leading edge processor technology. But the companies designs were not good enough for me. My enhanced technologies and designs would have added to it.

To get an idea of sensor performance, you do test samples of the circuites to measure the performance of the design. So, you would make a sensor pad, and sensor sub circuited, book in for a test sample with others companies samples on the same due to save money. Maybe for $10k-$50k a pop, and keep going back refining the design formular and testing bigger circuites until you get it done. But it can be 6 weeks before you get a test circuite back. Do you might be testing hundreds of circuites, hundreds of copies, and even hundreds of versions of a pad. While you wait for.thst you maybe working on more things to test next. When you get the original lot back you can test the and make new versions while other test circuites get made. But as this is she sensor technology, unless you are using an previously made process, it would get more complicated, as the physical chemical formula of the chip has to also be tested, meaning that a shared wafer likely can only test one formular at a time, but I imagine they have ways around this. They could do test stripes of different formulas separatation from the circuites at first, but this is out of my league. But for this reason it is likely that the sensor manufacture has its own custom sensor fab to test things, which probably reduces time and may decease costs. Red has a few.

I lost the previouse post I was writing, but did I mention it was said they put in $10 million into this design? So, what is for sale could be another version of it, which they might even get a cut on.
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