Will we see a new Pocket or DSLR-size camera this year?

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hypp132

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Will we see a new Pocket or DSLR-size camera this year?

PostSat Feb 24, 2018 11:10 pm

Hi,

I've been waiting for Blackmagic Design to release a new pocket for 2 years now and at NAB 2017 they addressed this question. They want to do it, but they couldn't. There is (maybe there is a new sensor available) or wasn't a sensor available that could shoot 4K, ProRes/Raw without generating excessive amounts of heat. But here is the thing that I don't understand, why do they keep the pocket so damn small? It's awful to use without an external screen and all sorts of equipment. Why not make it bigger, maybe as big as the GH5? That should address the overheating problem (honestly, I don't have a clue but I would like to think so), the ergonomics would be much better etc... It could potentially cannibalize the Ursa mini but there are probably too many limitations at that size, so most likely there would still be enough compelling reasons to buy the Ursa mini. I don't understand why they haven't made one yet, and it's frustrating waiting for something that may never come.

So what's your take on this? Is it reasonable to think that they will release a new bigger model or an updated Pocket this year?
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Denny Smith

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Re: Will we see a new Pocket or DSLR-size camera this year?

PostMon Feb 26, 2018 7:59 pm

This is anybody’s guess. BM will announce one when they got it made and ready to ship, not before.
Speculation is since they already released the new Broadcast Camera, chances are slim for another new camera at NAB — but only BM knows for sure! :roll:
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Brad Hurley

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Re: Will we see a new Pocket or DSLR-size camera this year?

PostMon Feb 26, 2018 8:11 pm

My guess is that the Pocket camera is serving Blackmagic very well as a market-entry product for people who've never experienced a cinema camera before. The image quality is great enough to get people hooked, and the flaws and shortcomings are significant enough to tempt them to upgrade to more expensive models. Plus there's no serious competition in its size and price range, even after all these years.

If they came out with a successor to the Pocket with all the flaws/limitations fixed, there would be little motivation for people to move up the product line. And people keep buying them -- my local store has been sold out for a month and they didn't know when they'd be getting more of them.
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Steve Holmlund

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Re: Will we see a new Pocket or DSLR-size camera this year?

PostMon Feb 26, 2018 10:13 pm

Brad Hurley wrote:My guess is that the Pocket camera is serving Blackmagic very well as a market-entry product for people who've never experienced a cinema camera before. ...


I concur with Brad. Unfortunately, the time probably has passed to do a "Mark II" that could get away with not being 4K. And BMD have said as much.

I personally think a 2.5K Pocket (and therefore still possibly able to write Raw to a single SD card) with much better battery life and screen, and a more secure HDMI port, would still be attractive but I understand why that's difficult from a marketing perspective nowadays.

There have already been several threads with feature wish-lists. This is just my quick take.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Will we see a new Pocket or DSLR-size camera this year?

PostMon Feb 26, 2018 11:17 pm

I agree Steve, which BM would do a new 2.5K MFT Camera. However, BM has previously stated, no more cameras with less than 4K resolution, as that is where the market has gone. Still, would be nice to see BM backslide this statement and release a new 2.5K Camera. :roll:
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Anatoly Mashanov

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Re: Will we see a new Pocket or DSLR-size camera this year?

PostWed Feb 28, 2018 2:39 am

hypp132 wrote:wasn't a sensor available that could shoot 4K, ProRes/Raw without generating excessive amounts of heat. But here is the thing that I don't understand, why do they keep the pocket so damn small? It's awful to use without an external screen and all sorts of equipment. Why not make it bigger, maybe as big as the GH5?

The ergonomics of cinema camera differs from the ergonomics of stills camera - you could keep the stills camera steady for the moments you shoot but not the movie camera in stills camera form factor during minutes you shoot. And if you want a 4k camera you basically need a 4x more power unless you have a new shining electronics not yet invented (As a variant: Spend about 10x more to R&D and sacrifice quality using a lower grade codec, then gain a 100x bigger market share in consumer segment as some companies C and N do). So instead of camera held in hands you need a camera resting on shoulder. Yes, I mean URSA Mini. And most possible the entry level 4k camera will be in Ursa Mini form factor.
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Greg Lee

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Re: Will we see a new Pocket or DSLR-size camera this year?

PostWed Feb 28, 2018 5:43 am

Nah, unfortunately I think they're out of the tiny cam game, at least until 4K becomes less onerous technologically.

I think their next steps are a somewhat smaller URSA Mini (like EVA1/FS5 size), and a 6K URSA Mini.
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Re: Will we see a new Pocket or DSLR-size camera this year?

PostWed Feb 28, 2018 7:47 am

The EVA1/FS5 is about as small as you want to get in a Pro Production Camera and still have good control of the camera, and would be a good size for the Ursa Micro.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Will we see a new Pocket or DSLR-size camera this year?

PostThu Mar 01, 2018 12:10 am

Nope.

I have seen this thread. But I think we need to wait, for news.

The pocket indeed is a wonderful camera, a step.
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Craig Seeman

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Re: Will we see a new Pocket or DSLR-size camera this year?

PostThu Mar 01, 2018 4:10 pm

FWIW, those looking for a Pocket alternative may be considering the Panasonic GH5S. While not cDNG or ProRes, it's 4k and UHD 10 bit 4:2:2 with much better color science than the GH5. It has many of the things Pocket users have requested including higher frame rates, better battery life, professional XLR audio inputs (optional), better low light performance. It may not be 13 stops of dynamic range but it may be 12. Beyond getting a new Metabones SpeedBooster it otherwise would support the same lenses.

If only Blackmagic had something to better that, otherwise it seems they've ceded that market.

Given the above, there may be a market for competitor in the $2500 price range. It doesn't have to be $995 like the current Pocket.

If BMD had an Ursa Micro that might be another alternative. A Handycam MFT sized Ursa.
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Jim Giberti

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Re: Will we see a new Pocket or DSLR-size camera this year?

PostThu Mar 01, 2018 6:03 pm

The GH5 and GH5S are realy great cameras.
But they're simply not cinema cameras in the sense that they don't produce an image of the same caliber as a BM cam.

I've really tried to like them, like I've really tried to like a few recent Sony cams - because they're such great small cameras.

It's the IQ - color science, DR, temproal and general mojo - that doens't compare IMHO.
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Re: Will we see a new Pocket or DSLR-size camera this year?

PostThu Mar 01, 2018 8:47 pm

Steve Holmlund wrote:
Brad Hurley wrote:My guess is that the Pocket camera is serving Blackmagic very well as a market-entry product for people who've never experienced a cinema camera before. ...


I concur with Brad. Unfortunately, the time probably has passed to do a "Mark II" that could get away with not being 4K. And BMD have said as much.

I personally think a 2.5K Pocket (and therefore still possibly able to write Raw to a single SD card) with much better battery life and screen, and a more secure HDMI port, would still be attractive but I understand why that's difficult from a marketing perspective nowadays.

There have already been several threads with feature wish-lists. This is just my quick take.


I think 2.5K cameras in general are unnecessary, and probably why both the 2.5K Cine and the Digital Bolex became discontinued. At the time, they seemed like a stepping stone to making a feature film for cheap, because 4K cameras were extremely expensive. But now a days theatrical distribution is no longer necessary. They are no longer the end goal. We're now in the age of Netflix, Hulu, Amazon Prime, Video On Demand, etc. And all they require is HD. People now a days only go to the theatre to see major films, and not something independent. But even an HD independent film can just get their HD film blown up to 2K, and most won't noticed. So if you're really low budget, you're just gotta stick with HD. If you're high budget, you're goal is to be put on a Ultra Blu-Ray player, and on iTunes with a 4K stamp. There is no need for 2K for either production. You're either going to the lowest acceptable standard or the highest, and not the middle of the road, because middle of the road is a master film for a 5 month showing in theatres, which again, you don't need. You can either crop your 4k to 2K, or blow up your 1080 to 2K. Your audience is still gonna see the same image, just more or less quality they don't care about.
Last edited by Chris Chiasson on Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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carlomacchiavello

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Re: Will we see a new Pocket or DSLR-size camera this year?

PostThu Mar 01, 2018 8:52 pm

Jim Giberti wrote:The GH5 and GH5S are realy great cameras.
But they're simply not cinema cameras in the sense that they don't produce an image of the same caliber as a BM cam.

I've really tried to like them, like I've really tried to like a few recent Sony cams - because they're such great small cameras.

It's the IQ - color science, DR, temproal and general mojo - that doens't compare IMHO.


I had gh5, I mixed log shooting with ursa mini and production camera 4K, and along a good developing of all log files, no one can give me the answer about what camera shoot what from 4K master.
All in a perfect exposure, right developing of different log Dr, excellent lenses for all cameras.
Sometimes if you not put all cameras together and check with same target // tool to check real difference from sensors is too easy to told that are large difference on cameras.
Obviously if I need to hard grade gh5 is mandatory that I must shoot in log, 10bit 4:2:2 Intraframe 400mbit, but for someone like me that usually shoot in raw is not a problem.
But I know too many people that buy a Ferrari (gh5) then shoot only 8bit 4:2:0 to save disk space or be cause they thought is enough to work, and later moan because they have limits in post or in color time...
gh5 intra frame codec is another planet when you shoot action, motion shooting, or sport like me.



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Wayne Steven

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Re: Will we see a new Pocket or DSLR-size camera this year?

PostFri Mar 02, 2018 1:11 pm

Sigma has patented a Foveon X3 video sensor. People interested in film look and color IQ, these guys really do it.

I have said in the past, Sigma would be a very good partner for BM to produce DSLR/distills/consumer cameras, with great video modes. A 8k Sigma X3 would be great.
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Re: Will we see a new Pocket or DSLR-size camera this year?

PostFri Mar 02, 2018 11:36 pm

Brad Hurley wrote:My guess is that the Pocket camera is serving Blackmagic very well as a market-entry product for people who've never experienced a cinema camera before.

I think this is exactly right. The BMPCC is still an unbelievably good option for HD shooting, and it's very affordable for what it is. I'll certainly never be paid for shooting a single frame, and I have one to play with.

I wouldn't mind a newer 2.5K or 4K mirrorless, but the post-production requirements for the "correct" workflow are much more expensive for higher resolutions than HD.
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Will we see a new Pocket or DSLR-size camera this year?

PostSat Mar 03, 2018 6:21 pm

Jack, good point. BMD price points for any of their cameras are below what you may need to spend on post processing hardware and lenses for example. The world has to love BMD for bringing so may more people into serious cinematography where the camera is the first and likely least expensive component. Even the gear hanging off my camera exceeds the cost of the camera when you add the EVF, battery, shotgun mic, matte box, filters, and so on. The new iMac Pro will do 4K but costs as much as my camera for a good configuration. Let’s not talk about tripods/heads and lights.


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Denny Smith

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Re: Will we see a new Pocket or DSLR-size camera this year?

PostSat Mar 03, 2018 6:27 pm

Yes, the bits always cost more than the camera, unless you spend $20-30K for the camera! :roll:
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Will we see a new Pocket or DSLR-size camera this year?

PostSun Mar 04, 2018 7:15 am

But the reality is small shops make good lenses in Japan for a fraction of the price you normally pay for cinema lenses. Red actually addressed the problem, by making quality lenses that were a lot cheaper than cinema lenses, for a while. But knowing Red, they might have been more expensive than need be. BM could do the same thing, team up with somebody that can do quality (maybe even in India) and produce lenses close to the price of those small Japanese shops do, and a second line at a price close to cheap still lens prices, and please some liquid lens (Samsung) to bring the price of a universal multifocal lens down and quality up. Loose ties means being able to drop the contract if demand ever stops. That would be a real service to the industry, plus the universal liquid multifocal lens could come as standard with each camera.

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