Intensity Shuttle VHS recording

Getting started with a Blackmagic product? Ask questions here about setup and installation.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 8152
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: Intensity Shuttle VHS recording

PostTue Feb 27, 2018 5:12 pm

The USB is for firmware updates only. Not sure, but I think the SDI out should work when an inout signal is processed. Do you get an input signal light? Have you tried to see if you are getting an analog out. How are you connecting the SVideo? I am not in front of my Kudos at the moment, but check to see if there is an input slesctor. Pulling the face plate off reveals the setup switches
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline

Daniel Gordon

  • Posts: 33
  • Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:09 pm
  • Location: United States- Los Angeles, CA

Re: Intensity Shuttle VHS recording

PostTue Feb 27, 2018 9:28 pm

Hi Denny,
Here's some pictures of my current setup using the Time base corrector nrs 30 and the teranax. For some reason the pictures look upside down in the preview but if you right click on them to view image, they are right side up. Also, how does one actually get the footage out of the teranex to the computer? hdmi out to intensity shuttle or some other means?
Attachments
IMG_3194.jpg
IMG_3194.jpg (641.23 KiB) Viewed 2102 times
IMG_3193.jpg
IMG_3193.jpg (541.21 KiB) Viewed 2102 times
IMG_3192.jpg
IMG_3192.jpg (602.67 KiB) Viewed 2102 times
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 8152
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: Intensity Shuttle VHS recording

PostWed Feb 28, 2018 3:00 am

OK, what is your SDI BNC out on the Kudos labeled? The DIP switches under the fron panel should all be up, then you can select color bars from the front control, and see if you can get the color bars to output first, as a way to trouble shoot your setup. Use a SDI or analog Monitor to check the outputs on the Kudos and a SDI/HDMI monitor to check the output of the Teranex. The photo of the Kudos show it has a connection to the SVideo inout, but no signal is present (Ref Lost Light is on). Do you have the S$W Kudos manual? It gives the basic setup info and other details.

As far as the Teranex goes, I do not have one, so can not comment. I use a AJA IO for my computer interface, which has a SDI inout, and separate audio inputs to get the audio embedded in the video signal.
But SDI seems to be the main video output. See https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products. For inout/outputs. You will need a video card or box to connect the SDI to your computer.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline

Daniel Gordon

  • Posts: 33
  • Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:09 pm
  • Location: United States- Los Angeles, CA

Re: Intensity Shuttle VHS recording

PostWed Feb 28, 2018 4:28 am

The SDI BNC Out are labeled Main 1 and 2 for outputs. I tried the black/bars switch but it didn't seem to output any differently. It's not clear why the ref lost light is on. I noticed it said that with the other tbc too. I used different s video cables and different sources but it didn't change the light status. I'll have to see what the teranex outputs soon but it doesn't appear promising with the no input message.
I don't have the kudos manual unfortunately. I can't find it anywhere.
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 8152
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: Intensity Shuttle VHS recording

PostWed Feb 28, 2018 6:36 am

Main 1 and Main are not SDI outputs, they are composite analog video outputs. SDI out is labeled Serial D1 on the Kudos NRS 50 and SDI on the NRS 70. From what I have been able to determine, I do not think the NRS 30 has a SDI out. But it is a TBC with a Frame Sync, which is what you need for VHS transfers.

You can take the SVideo (better than Composite) or component (best) output and connect it to a BM Analog to SDI Mini Converter HD model, to get a SDI out, and it will embed the audio for you also. That said, adding a small mixer or line level preamp, like a Sound Devices MicPre, between your VCR source and the Mini Converter will give you better control over audio levels.



The Kudos filtering on the NRS30 is a full-featured multi-standard format
interchange Timebase/Synchroniser incorporating
a powerful 2-stage noise reducer comprising a
non-linear adaptive recursive filter followed by a
unique spatial-temporal median filter. The median
filter has the ability to remove noise peaks without
introducing smearing artefacts and is ideally suited
to the suppressing of impulse noise originating
from film dirt or ‘sparklies’ prevalent in pictures
received via satellite sources.All recursive and
median noise reduction coefficients are adjustable
and a bargraph display shows the calculated noise
floor of the signal being processed so the adaption
threshold may be accurately set."

There are four settings for this filter, and they're described as follows:

The Median Filter switch selects the following filter
characteristics:-

1 Off

2 Luminance 5-point, 2 dimensional spatial
filter

3 Luminance 7-point, 2 dimensional spatial
filter (This setting has two configurations,
SYMMETRIC and ASYMMETRIC which
are selectable by a DIP switch on the noise
reducer PCB.
See ‘Noise Reduction’ section)

4 As position 3, plus additional 7-point
filtering for the Chrominance channel.
Read more: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-r ... z58NuZQjVl
Last edited by Denny Smith on Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline

Daniel Gordon

  • Posts: 33
  • Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:09 pm
  • Location: United States- Los Angeles, CA

Re: Intensity Shuttle VHS recording

PostWed Feb 28, 2018 6:55 am

It appears there are some differences on the inputs on the nrs30 vs the 50. I did locate a copy of the NRS 50 manual so i will try to figure if i can find a way to resolve this issue. Here's a picture of the NRS30.
Attachments
s-l1600.jpg
s-l1600.jpg (156.13 KiB) Viewed 2084 times
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 8152
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: Intensity Shuttle VHS recording

PostWed Feb 28, 2018 7:27 am

Also SECAM is the French and Eastern Europe broadcast standard, similar to PAL. Make sure you have the Kudos set to NTSC Standard, not SeCam. Y/C is S/Video, Betcam is your component out, and will require a breakout cable to BNCs, the BMC 1/2 is probable Composite out for UMatic machines.

I have some spare Sony 8-inch Broadcast Camera monitor’s that are Y/C and Composite inputs if you need one to check the Kudos outputs. $50 plus shipping, PM me if you are interested.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline

Daniel Gordon

  • Posts: 33
  • Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:09 pm
  • Location: United States- Los Angeles, CA

Re: Intensity Shuttle VHS recording

PostWed Feb 28, 2018 8:40 am

The betacam breakout cable looks pretty expensive and an extra layer in the chain id prefer to avoid if possible. I may go back to working with the snell and wilcox tbc 11n if the betacam breakout cable is a requirement to use with the teranex. One more concern is in the manual it says, this unit always
provides an output signal in the same standard as
the input; the input standard information (and hence
the output standard) is derived from the input
signal. I'm wondering if that means if im putting s video in if that is what has to come out too. If this is the case, i might have to forgo using the teranex and just use the intensity shuttle. It's more of a last resort choice.
Offline
User avatar

Colin Barrett

  • Posts: 603
  • Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:23 pm
  • Location: Milton Keynes, UK

Re: Intensity Shuttle VHS recording

PostWed Feb 28, 2018 1:58 pm

Denny Smith wrote:A Laiser Disk player is only going to play out on TV monitor, the unit know when it is connected to any type of recording equipment and blocks the signal to protect the Laiser disk copywright. This was a condition of releasing major films on a disk, same goes for DVDs. Try a VCR as a signal source.


Not always true, Denny. I often transfer / transcode "copy protected" material by routing picture info through a broadcast-spec TBC. My S&W TBC-11 always strips the code out by default and then gives me a stable output. I do this from time where a decent-quality master is unavailable for somebody who has worked on a production (eg: for a showreel) or where reasonable steps have been taken to obtain a digital version.

Daniel Gordon wrote:thanks Denny. But im having the issue even with a vhs player. Still says no input. Is the issue that im going in with s video and trying to get sdi out from the tbc? Is there a special setting to get sdi out on the tbcs to force sdi out?

Also, is the usb connection to the computer the best way to get the video captured?


No. Don't forget that the TBC's SDI output will probably only give you video and not audio - the audio will need to embedded at a secondary stage (using a Blackmagic Audio-to-SDI mini-converter or similar) before you can properly capture fully. Once the two have been combined you can give the single BNC feed to the Teranex via its SDI input and it will handle it from there. If, of course, the Teranex is being given the audio via its own audio inputs, then check the playback of the two (video, audio) carefully because the TBC will delay your video feed by between one and three frames, depending on your settings. Go into the Teranex's own audio menus and dial in an audio delay to re-sync it with the video. Although only a geek will notice a one-frame delay, a three-frame delay will be noticeable to everyone! TBCs, by their very nature, introduce frame delays into the signal path.

Bear in mind, also, that "S-Video" and "Composite Video" outputs are different animals. Unless you're trying to digitise S-VHS then you're best giving the TBC a Composite Video input only, even though the TBC can then output YPbPr Component (R, G, and B) to the Teranex.

What you're experiencing is a simple connectivity issue here - the sort that has been the cause of so much lost hair on my part! Keep plugging and unplugging because the S&W TBC will do the job for you, I have no doubt.

Colin
Blackmagic Teranex 2D, Ultrastudio Express, Intensity Shuttle (Thunderbolt), Two H.264 Pro Recorders (Mac OSX) & lots of old VTRs used for digital archiving of legacy video formats for major libraries, broadcasters, universities and public archives.
Offline

Daniel Gordon

  • Posts: 33
  • Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:09 pm
  • Location: United States- Los Angeles, CA

Re: Intensity Shuttle VHS recording

PostWed Feb 28, 2018 6:38 pm

Thank you so much Colin for that detailed response. I was actually looking at that black magic mini audio to sdi converter previously too. But the teranex av accepts rca audio separately too. If the sdi converter is the missing link, id certainly go that direction. It's my understanding that the tbc is not outputting sdi because im inputting a s video connection into it first. Is this why converting to sdi before the tbc will resolve this issue? Also, I will be using s vhs and s video for super beta so those inputs are accepted into the snell and wilcox. I don't believe it has rca composite type video accepted into the snell and wilcox.
Also, how do you actually digitize the video after it's in the teranex? I have an intensity shuttle so i know i can likely input hdmi into that from the teranex but it seems like an odd step to take. I would like to test out seeing what a 4k upscale would look like and know the intensity shuttle won't really allow for that from the teranex. I'd love to hear your suggestions. Thanks again,
Daniel
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 8152
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: Intensity Shuttle VHS recording

PostWed Feb 28, 2018 7:51 pm

Thanks Collin, nice to know. I tried recording from a Laiser Disk, not luck, but didn’t pass it through the NRS 50, the TBC 11 and NRS seems seem to have some unique differences.

Daniel, your Kudos NRS 30does not seem to have a SDI output, as I previously stated. To get SDI, you need the analog to SDI Converter. If you are only trying to get DVD recordings, then composite out to the Converter is fine. Otherwise, S Video. The video signal resolution you mentions is how the video is recorded, not the type of output, they are different. Resolution is SD, HD UHD, etc. Under each category their are different specifications, like 1080i59.95vs 720p59.94, both HD but at different resolutions.

So sending a signal from the VHS via its Composite RCA connector to the Kudos Composite input, will put the Video signal out to all the Kudos outputs, Composite, Y/C and Betacam component connector. Using SVideo, inout, you will still get outputs on all three.

A video signal is comprised of chromance and luminance signals, on Composite they are all together in one signal stream in a single wire with ground. With Y/C or SVideo, the Chromance and Luminance signals are separated into two channels or wires, plus a ground. With Composite, the Chromance is further divided into two channels, offering better color and supports the higher color sampeling found in Pro Analog Cameras like Betacam, which was one of the first to use Composite video connections. So Composite has three wires each with its own ground.

You working with analog, which is different than digital SD which can be expressed as 480i59.94 under the NTSC standard, and converting it or upscalling to a different resolution like HD at 1080i69.94. I see no advantage to upscalling to HD, unless you need the footage to match some other HD footage. DVDs are SD, and if this is your target use, than keeping it SD is fine.

For a discussion of video resolutions see: https://gist.github.com/jonlabelle/7834592.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline

Daniel Gordon

  • Posts: 33
  • Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:09 pm
  • Location: United States- Los Angeles, CA

Re: Intensity Shuttle VHS recording

PostWed Feb 28, 2018 7:58 pm

Thanks Denny for the very detailed response. I have also tried inputting s video into the tbc 11n that colin also has. But the teranex also doesn't show input from the sdi out of the snell and wilcox tbc 11n. I'm going to test out the snell and wilcox s video in and out into the intensity shuttle instead of the teranex.

My main purpose for the conversions will be primarily super beta home movies with s video out. Then s video from s vhs tapes and some laser discs. I do want to preserve the highest quality possible and am starting to wonder if there is a big difference between the intensity shuttle and the teranex after all these converters are used before using the teranex. I don't plan to keep the files I make on hard drives. I do not plan to make dvds or blurays as i prefer to watch the native files so it would have been an worth while experiment with the 4k upconversion with the teranex.
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 8152
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: Intensity Shuttle VHS recording

PostWed Feb 28, 2018 9:34 pm

You do know that Hard Drives are not good archive media, they, to retain their files, you must turn them on every 6 mouths or at least one ever a year. DVDs are better long term storage, you can burn data DVDs of the compressed video files you capture. DVD Video is 720x480 pixel, VHS Video is only 480x320, SD is 640x480 pixel resolution. All are at 8-bit sampling, 4.2.2, as that is what the Snell and Wilcox until you have are sampled at.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline

Daniel Gordon

  • Posts: 33
  • Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:09 pm
  • Location: United States- Los Angeles, CA

Re: Intensity Shuttle VHS recording

PostWed Feb 28, 2018 10:58 pm

Thanks Denny. I have in the past actually acrhived to bluray media and still hold those but there comes a point where they become not enough. I know your point on the hard drives and looking into solutions for those. But that is another animal to fight for another day.

Just to see what happens, I did get s video out from the snell and wilcox to the intensity shuttle direct from the laser disk. It looks great. But im still curious about the sdi possibiltiies with the teranex. I will have to consider what colin said about the mini converter. Also still awaiting a response from Colin on whether he thinks teranex to intensity shuttle is the way to go or some other means.
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 8152
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: Intensity Shuttle VHS recording

PostThu Mar 01, 2018 12:03 am

Good luck, glad you got one signal path working.
Cheers.
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline

Daniel Gordon

  • Posts: 33
  • Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:09 pm
  • Location: United States- Los Angeles, CA

Re: Intensity Shuttle VHS recording

PostThu Mar 01, 2018 6:38 am

Thanks Denny.
I purchased a s video to dual bnc cables to see if that might help get it work better. I know you said it always is outputting the sdi out but so far i have no idea why it's not getting that signal to the terranex.
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 8152
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: Intensity Shuttle VHS recording

PostThu Mar 01, 2018 8:27 pm

Are you referring to the TBC 11 SDI output? The best way to test this, is get either a SDI to HDMI Converter and hook it up to a HDMI Monitor/TV or get a SDI Monitor that supports HD.

Which Terranex are you using? Do you have it set to SD resolution on its input?
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline

Daniel Gordon

  • Posts: 33
  • Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:09 pm
  • Location: United States- Los Angeles, CA

Re: Intensity Shuttle VHS recording

PostThu Mar 01, 2018 8:37 pm

Yes, sorry for the confusion. With the two different tbcs i have, i have a little more flexibility but still have to get a way to get the signal out. I'm also now considering trying to get another bnc cable and outputting dual bnc to the teranex av that i have. I'm not able to set the resolution because it shows no inputs.
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 8152
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: Intensity Shuttle VHS recording

PostThu Mar 01, 2018 9:23 pm

Did you try the TBC11 SDI out once you got the SVideo connection to work? The NRS you have, does not seem to have a SDI out, and it’s main out BNCs are not going to give you a SDI output to the Ten AV.
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline

Daniel Gordon

  • Posts: 33
  • Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:09 pm
  • Location: United States- Los Angeles, CA

Re: Intensity Shuttle VHS recording

PostThu Mar 01, 2018 9:49 pm

Hi Denny,
I did try the sdi out again but no signal. Now, im thinking i might be on to something here. I plugged s video out of the tbc to my intensity shuttle with the audio. Then i plugged hdmi out of the shuttle to the teranex and im getting a signal registered. Im going to plug hdmi out to a tv to see what i can find soon.
Is this potentially a good work around? or am i losing some important information with the out to s video instead of sdi?
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 8152
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: Intensity Shuttle VHS recording

PostThu Mar 01, 2018 10:08 pm

No, same resolution video, the SDI out has just been converted to digital. Might be a good work around.
Not sure why your SDI out is not working.
Cheers.
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline

Daniel Gordon

  • Posts: 33
  • Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:09 pm
  • Location: United States- Los Angeles, CA

Re: Intensity Shuttle VHS recording

PostThu Mar 01, 2018 10:14 pm

Thanks Denny.
Isn’t it preferable that the sdi is used for the fact that it becomes a digital signal more quickly than one additional link in the analogue chain with s video out though?
Offline

Daniel Gordon

  • Posts: 33
  • Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:09 pm
  • Location: United States- Los Angeles, CA

Re: Intensity Shuttle VHS recording

PostThu Mar 01, 2018 10:53 pm

The teranex sees the correct resolution for the shuttle but it only has a black screen. There's no direct power source for the shuttle so maybe it needs to be an amplified signal?
Offline

Daniel Gordon

  • Posts: 33
  • Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:09 pm
  • Location: United States- Los Angeles, CA

Re: Intensity Shuttle VHS recording

PostSat Mar 03, 2018 7:59 pm

I just got my additional sdi cable today. I was really hoping this would help but the two sdi ports out on both tbcs to input a and b on the terranex still produces the no input message.

I have now purchased an analogue to sdi converter and that arrives Monday. I also bought one more expensive sdi cable so hopefully this all helps.
Offline

Daniel Gordon

  • Posts: 33
  • Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:09 pm
  • Location: United States- Los Angeles, CA

Re: Intensity Shuttle VHS recording

PostMon Mar 05, 2018 9:58 pm

I now have tried s video out to 2 bnc adaptors to the analogue to sdi converter box from black magic. Sdi out from that to the teranex av and there is still no signal input.
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 8152
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: Intensity Shuttle VHS recording

PostMon Mar 05, 2018 10:43 pm

Sounds like you have an issue with the Teranex. You should get a signal, make sure you have the Y and C connections correct, and the Mini Converter set to S/Video via the dip switches on the back. You really need to use. SDI Monitor to check the signal path and make sure you are getting a SDI signal out. Otherwise you are just running blind here.

Here is my workflow, VCR to analog monitor via Y/C (to monitor the source signal), Y/C to Kudos NRS 50, SDI out to SDI Monitor, loop out to capture device, in my case an AJA I/O. This way you can see the signal a,one the path and know if something is wrong in the chain somewhere.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline

Daniel Gordon

  • Posts: 33
  • Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:09 pm
  • Location: United States- Los Angeles, CA

Re: Intensity Shuttle VHS recording

PostMon Mar 05, 2018 11:11 pm

Thanks for the tip on the dip switch Denny. I did manage to get a signal finally with the s video out to 2 bnc to the mini adaptor. This was encouraging to finally for the first time see a video image on the teranex for the first time. But ideally i would like to get a signal from the bnc connector straight to the mini converter as I fear im losing quality with the s video to bnc connectors possibly.
Offline

Daniel Gordon

  • Posts: 33
  • Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:09 pm
  • Location: United States- Los Angeles, CA

Re: Intensity Shuttle VHS recording

PostMon Mar 05, 2018 11:58 pm

You won't believe it but i am now finally getting the video to show on the teranex screen using the 2 composite bnc connectors from the snell and wilcox tbc 11n. Dip switches 6 and 7 are off on the converter. I'm not sure why it wasn't working earlier but it finally is now. Im very excited now. I'm finally getting the image from the teranex to the shuttle to the computer. Now, the easy part. How much delay do i need for my audio to be in sync with the video?
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 8152
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: Intensity Shuttle VHS recording

PostTue Mar 06, 2018 5:27 am

Glad you got it sorted. As for losing quality with these analog to SDI Converter from the TBC vs the sdimout on the TBC, it should be about the same, not much if any difference from a VHS recording.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Previous

Return to Getting Started

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests