Ursa Broadcast sensor 16mm image circle

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Norbert von der Heidt

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Ursa Broadcast sensor 16mm image circle

PostThu Mar 08, 2018 3:45 am

Hi gang,

I'm planning to buy the Ursa Broadcast in the next few months so I'm doing research in the meantime.

As well as the standard B4 mount I'm getting the EF mount so I can use my Canon L series glass when appropriate but I was wondering if I should get the PL mount also. So my question is, since the sensor is actually 1", thus larger than standard for 2/3" prism system, does that mean that PL 16mm lenses would be totally out of the question or is it a case of some with and some won't?

Any thoughts on the subject would be appreciated
Norbert von der Heidt

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Tim Schumann

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Re: Ursa Broadcast sensor 16mm image circle

PostThu Mar 08, 2018 5:08 am

We have tested with numerous PL mount Super 16 lenses that work quite well.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Ursa Broadcast sensor 16mm image circle

PostThu Mar 08, 2018 5:42 am

While the sensor is 1-inch, the active area used to capture the image is about the same size as an open gate S16 lens, which is about A 14.5mm image circle

Broadcast sensor is 13x7.4mm, which is a 15mm projected image circle to cover the sensor.
The few S16 lenses with less than a 15mm projected image circle are the ultra wides, like the Zeiss 9.5mm, the Angenieux 5.9mm is 14mm circle. The rest of the Angie and Zeiss S16 lenses from 12mm up are at least 16.5mm, and the Cooke S16 lenses are also 16mm. The Zeiss Super Speeds and Illuminati S16 lenses image circle increases with each longer focal length, the 16mm having a 19mm, and the 25 and 35mm even larger projected image circles The only 9.5mm lens I could find with a 15mm image circle is the Optar Elite 9.5, which is 15.5mm, and covers the Micro/Broadcast 4K sensor just fine.

I hope this answers your question.
Cheers
Last edited by Denny Smith on Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Norbert von der Heidt

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Re: Ursa Broadcast sensor 16mm image circle

PostThu Mar 08, 2018 5:46 am

Hi

Thanks, Tim & Denny for your input. I think I will get the PL as well.
Norbert von der Heidt

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Denny Smith

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Re: Ursa Broadcast sensor 16mm image circle

PostThu Mar 08, 2018 5:49 am

If you have S16 lenses, I would. I am considering this camera to use with my S16 lenses as well.
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Anatoly Mashanov

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Re: Ursa Broadcast sensor 16mm image circle

PostThu Mar 08, 2018 6:01 am

I think 16-mm PL is out of question except for the windowed mode. In windowed mode it should be ideal but are you going to buy 4k camera and use it as 2k? Reasons:

There is a lot of distance between B4 lens and a sensor for the sake of prism. It's difficult to achieve but is still achieved out of need. The same lenses with PL are possible but I see no commercial reason to produce them. So all the 16-mm PL lenses protrude deep into the camera, and there is no place for the optics similar to B4 mount optics.

Moreover, the B4 lenses are computed taking into account the need to compensate the chromatic aberration of the prism. So attempts to mount them into PL could result to overcompensation of this aberration actually worsening the image, so the incentive to do it is even less.

Disclaimer: I am a physicist, not a cinematographer. I have no URSA and no PL. So my reasoning is theoretical only.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Ursa Broadcast sensor 16mm image circle

PostThu Mar 08, 2018 6:16 am

Anatoly, whikevwhat you are saying is correct, the PL FFD is 52mm, while the B4 is 48mm, and the BM B4 Mount includes the corrective optics to compensate the CA of the prism on 3CCD B4 mounts, and expands the image 1.5 times to cover the S16 sensor found in the Broadcast Camera, which is the camera being discussed here.

Like the Ursa Mini Pro, which the Broadcast Camera shares its body and lens mount system (slightly modified), and can use the Pro’s different lens mounts (excluding the Pro’s B4 Mount), including the PL mount which resets the FFD from 48mm to 52mm for the PL Mount FFD. The B4 Mount with its optical block, are removable to allow the other Pro mounts to be used. Since the Broadcast Camera has the 1-inch senor used in the Micro Studio Camera, it has the same image circle requirement which fits most S16 lenses, per my comment above.

On a UM Pro, you are correct, and would need to shoot in 2K or HD widow mode to prevent vignetting.
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Patrick Acum

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Re: Ursa Broadcast sensor 16mm image circle

PostSat Apr 21, 2018 10:11 am

Hi,
Late to the party on this one but I'd be very interested in seeing any footage of the broadcast with PL mount and s16 lenses. I read someone had tried the canon 8-64 zoom, which I assumed would be way to wide to get coverage?
At £2500 for the body, the broadcast is amazing value, if s16 lenses worked, with the new pocket 4k dual iso sensor, this would be an amazing docs camera.
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Patrick Acum

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Re: Ursa Broadcast sensor 16mm image circle

PostSat Apr 21, 2018 10:51 am

Tim Schumann wrote:We have tested with numerous PL mount Super 16 lenses that work quite well.

Hi Tim, do you recall which lenses you tried? Any footage?
Would there ever be any plans to implement the new pocket sensor in the broadcast?
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Denny Smith

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Re: Ursa Broadcast sensor 16mm image circle

PostSat Apr 21, 2018 4:40 pm

The Ursa Broadcast was released to primarily use B4 lenses, so the choice was to use the smaller 1-inch/S16 size sensor, which can easily be adapted for B4 lenses with a 1.5 Teel extender optics to increase the image circle. Doing this for the much larger MFT format is not easy, nor cost effective, and not likely to happen. The new Pocket camera has the MFT sensor, if yiu want a larger sensor camera.

For Super 16 lenses with PL mount, the Broadcast csmera rocks, better image than you get form the B4 lenses. See “Secret Camera” half way down this review: https://www.provideocoalition.com/a-loo ... ra-review/
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rick.lang

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Re: Ursa Broadcast sensor 16mm image circle

PostSat Apr 21, 2018 4:52 pm

A global shutter?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Rick Lang
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Howard Roll

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Re: Ursa Broadcast sensor 16mm image circle

PostSat Apr 21, 2018 5:50 pm

All of the Illuminas cover fine.

Canon 8-64, 10.8-180, and Zeiss 11-110 and 12-120 are fine as well.

I noticed some soft vignetting, definitely stronger than simple falloff, with the Zeiss 9.5 mkiii superspeed but others claim the mki has better coverage.

Good Luck.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Ursa Broadcast sensor 16mm image circle

PostSun Apr 22, 2018 1:35 am

rick.lang wrote:A global shutter?


Well, not really, I had the same feeling when I got the Micro Studio, but it has a RS, but it does have a 9.9MS sensor readout time, which makes it seem like a GS.
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Patrick Acum

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Re: Ursa Broadcast sensor 16mm image circle

PostMon Apr 23, 2018 1:05 pm

Great answers thanks!! :D
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Patrick Acum

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Re: Ursa Broadcast sensor 16mm image circle

PostMon Apr 23, 2018 1:06 pm

Denny Smith wrote:The Ursa Broadcast was released to primarily use B4 lenses, so the choice was to use the smaller 1-inch/S16 size sensor, which can easily be adapted for B4 lenses with a 1.5 Teel extender optics to increase the image circle. Doing this for the much larger MFT format is not easy, nor cost effective, and not likely to happen. The new Pocket camera has the MFT sensor, if yiu want a larger sensor camera.

For Super 16 lenses with PL mount, the Broadcast csmera rocks, better image than you get form the B4 lenses. See “Secret Camera” half way down this review: https://www.provideocoalition.com/a-loo ... ra-review/
Cheers


So with the PL mount, you'll gain a stop after ditching the additional optics?
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Patrick Acum

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Re: Ursa Broadcast sensor 16mm image circle

PostMon Apr 23, 2018 1:25 pm

Howard Roll wrote:All of the Illuminas cover fine.

Canon 8-64, 10.8-180, and Zeiss 11-110 and 12-120 are fine as well.

I noticed some soft vignetting, definitely stronger than simple falloff, with the Zeiss 9.5 mkiii superspeed but others claim the mki has better coverage.

Good Luck.

Thanks for this!! Do you have any clips from the broadcast? The zeiss 11-110 looks very interesting, good range and fast.
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Howard Roll

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Re: Ursa Broadcast sensor 16mm image circle

PostMon Apr 23, 2018 4:48 pm

No, I’ve used those lenses with the micro studio which has the same sensor and dimensions but a different color science.

The Zeiss is pretty fast and sharp as well but like many Zeiss lenses CA can be a problem, it breathes, the front rotates, and the close focus is about 5 feet. The Canon’s are much easier to use.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Ursa Broadcast sensor 16mm image circle

PostMon Apr 23, 2018 5:04 pm

Patrick, yes, the B4 Mount has a 1.5 tele Converter built in it, and you loose 1-stop with it, take it off, replace with PL Mount, and you get that stop back.p, as no light loss with a straight mount.
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Tristan Pemberton

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Re: Ursa Broadcast sensor 16mm image circle

PostTue Apr 24, 2018 12:21 am

Howard Roll wrote:No, I’ve used those lenses with the micro studio which has the same sensor and dimensions...

Cool, thanks Howard.

I remember you offering some information on the Canon 8-64 T2.4 when I purchased mine. It's a stellar lens, and one I've been using often with my UM4.6KPL shooting 2K - great range for doco.

And now BMD has the UM Broadcast - it's a very tempting offer as it's essentially a UHD Super16 camera with all the benefits of digital cinema, in an ENG form factor.
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Patrick Acum

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Re: Ursa Broadcast sensor 16mm image circle

PostTue Apr 24, 2018 11:13 am

My thoughts exactly Tristan! The UMP body is really well designed and the built in nd would be great. I've looked at few clips - the highlights on some stuff looks a bit nuclear, like my big ursa but the colour looks very good.
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Tristan Pemberton

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Re: Ursa Broadcast sensor 16mm image circle

PostSun Apr 29, 2018 7:54 am

Patrick Acum wrote:My thoughts exactly Tristan! The UMP body is really well designed and the built in nd would be great. I've looked at few clips - the highlights on some stuff looks a bit nuclear, like my big ursa but the colour looks very good.

Yep, that's the only thing that concerns me. After shooting with the Pocket, BMCC and URSA Mini 4.6k for the last few years, I've really come to enjoy the dynamic range and 'look' of those Fairchild sensors with BM colour science.

Been kinda spoilt, especially the way the highlights roll off.
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Patrick Acum

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Re: Ursa Broadcast sensor 16mm image circle

PostFri Jun 01, 2018 6:19 pm

I've been using my new broadcast with the canon 8-64 and it's an amazing combination. Not had such luck with the illuminas, the 9.5 and the 12 vignette unusably, there's fall off on the 25, which is a shame. The fall off is more significant on the right of frame??
I also tried the k3 meteor 5-1, which fits if you remove the metal ring over the final optic. The image is very similar to a Helios 58mm. Vignettes badly till about 28mm sort of useable after that. It's pretty sharp.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Ursa Broadcast sensor 16mm image circle

PostFri Jun 01, 2018 6:39 pm

Yes, the 9.5 Zeiss Mk2 SS vignettes slightly on my Micro Studio, same sensor as the Broadcast camera, and the 12mm Illunina had a little light fall off in the corners, but not really noticeable vignette, and the 16mm and 25mm Illumina should more than cover the sensor. Sounds like your 24mm is off centered and needs to be adjusted by a lens tech. I had an issue with my 16mm, which was corrected with a CLA.

The only S16 9.5 I found that covers the 1-inch Studio sensor is the Elite 9.5mm, which I now have, sold my Zeiss 9.5 (less coverage than the Illumina). The Angie 17.5-70mm covers the Micro Studio/ Broadcast sensor quite well.

For a better wide angle coverage, I got a Duclos Tokina Cine PL 11-16, which covers S35 sensors, so hitting the center sweet spot in the 1-inch sensor. Pulling an accurate focus with a super wide is also a PITA and the Duclos 11-16 keptmthe Short focus throw of thr originsl Tokina to make getting the focus easier, and DoF takes care of the rest with this lens.
Cheers
Last edited by Denny Smith on Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Patrick Acum

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Re: Ursa Broadcast sensor 16mm image circle

PostSat Jun 02, 2018 10:39 am

That's strange about your 12, mine physically vignettes in all corners and there's fall off on the 25.
I might have a look at the 12-120 Zeiss, it was modified by optex to cover s16, but I can't find any info on exact coverage. The problem is the sensor is on the large side for S16, compared to say an aaton. But I really love the look of it and the zoom range is a dream for docs
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Denny Smith

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Re: Ursa Broadcast sensor 16mm image circle

PostSat Jun 02, 2018 6:25 pm

I think there is either an issue with your adapter FFD, which mount, PL? If you are using the PL Mount, is it shimmed to the correct FFD? If you are getting vignetting on the Illumina lenses, sounds like either the lens or PL Mount FFD is set too long. My 16mm had an out of spec FFD on the lens, which caused my vignetting issue, solved by having Rd-set to the correct FFD. Someone may have shimmed these lens mounts. In any case, they are worth having a CLA done, which is a good idea in older used lenses like these, and get them corrected back to original specifications. You can PM Howard a Roll for the tech he used for our lenses, which was excellent and reasonably priced.

FYI, the Micro Studio/Broadcast sensor diagonal is 14.9mm, not 16mm
The Illumina 9.5 (which I did not test, but Howard did) is 15.2mm projected image circle, so,should cover with only slight darkening (light fall off typical of all WA lenses)

The others are:
12mm - 15.34mm
16mm - 15.78mm
25mm - 17.4mm

So the 12-25mm lenses should (and do on mine and Howard’s Micro Studio Cameras) cover the 15mm sensor on the Broadcast Sensor
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Patrick Acum

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Re: Ursa Broadcast sensor 16mm image circle

PostTue Jun 05, 2018 3:33 pm

Thanks for this Denny, very interesting. I'd read before that most of the illuminas were greater than 15mm, which was why I ordered it. I suspect I may have an issue with the shimming of my PL mount on the broadcast. I might just have to take them all in and get it sorted.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Ursa Broadcast sensor 16mm image circle

PostTue Jun 05, 2018 4:42 pm

I would, at least start with having the lenses checked, especially the one that is off centered. Yes, on the camera PL mount, try removing one of the shim spacers. If you are not comfortable doing this, taking it in to a camera/lens tech who has a collimator is a grand idea. This will be much more accurate than p,aging around with the shims.
Cheers
Last edited by Denny Smith on Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Uli Plank

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Re: Ursa Broadcast sensor 16mm image circle

PostWed Jun 06, 2018 2:31 am

In my experience the Illumas – while nice lenses when you get a good sample – have pretty bad sample variation.

BTW, the Zeiss 12mm Superspeed MkII is not vignetting, but getting very soft in the corners. The longer ones are fine.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Ursa Broadcast sensor 16mm image circle

PostWed Jun 06, 2018 2:55 am

Thanks Uli, that was my experience with it also, not a hard vignette, but soft.
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Patrick Acum

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Re: Ursa Broadcast sensor 16mm image circle

PostWed Jun 06, 2018 9:37 am

Does anyone know if the zeiss/optex mod 12-120 covers? I realise that its modded from a 16mm zoom, but I can't find any info on what the extender used was, 1.2, 1.4?
Howie - is that the same as the zeiss you mentioned and that works on the micro studio?
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Denny Smith

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Re: Ursa Broadcast sensor 16mm image circle

PostWed Jun 06, 2018 4:28 pm

Howie used one on his Micro Studio, so it should work, might have soft corners at 12mm, but Howie can comment on this. I have an Angie 17.5-70 that covers thr Micro Studio nicely also.
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Patrick Acum

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Re: Ursa Broadcast sensor 16mm image circle

PostWed Jun 06, 2018 8:57 pm

Well, that would be fine if its a little edgy at 12, I've got my 8-64 which is amazing for most stuff, I'd probably only use the long end of the zeiss, but it would be nice to know how much the vignette was in case I cross shoot (tho the second camera would potentially be a um46 in centre crop, which is smaller than the broadcast sensor so could well be ok - even the meteor 17-69 covers the um46 centre) If anyone has any clips, I'd love to see them. Ideally I'd want the 11.5 - 138, but they're still quite pricey.

I've just finished a few night shoots with the broadcast and the canon, it performed fantastically well. We've been shooting a doc about jack the ripper for BBC1. I lit the streets a little and had a floating soft box for the walking stuff tho keeping it as unlit looking as possible. I stuck to 0db - the colours are really nice straight out of the camera and there's a little bit of grain which also looks good. All the roving around shots were handheld on the zoom for the full s16 experience, then all the presenter PTCS we did with primes on a slider with the um46 for something a little glossier as these were quite carefully lit. Interestingly the feedback from the commissioner has been really positive for the s16 look.
The bmd film image on the broadcast is very mild - pretty similar to the extended video and we used that as the in camera lut.
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David Hutchinson

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Re: Ursa Broadcast sensor 16mm image circle

PostWed Jun 06, 2018 9:00 pm

Denny Smith wrote:Patrick, yes, the B4 Mount has a 1.5 tele Converter built in it,
Cheers


Denny if the B4 mount enlarges the lens circle to cover a larger sensor then surely the Angle of View is going to be the same? ... so there isn't a crop factor???
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Denny Smith

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Re: Ursa Broadcast sensor 16mm image circle

PostThu Jun 07, 2018 6:19 am

No, not really when compared to a 2/3rds sensor camera, the Ursa Broadcast will give the same AOV.
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Patrick Acum

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Re: Ursa Broadcast sensor 16mm image circle

PostSat Jul 21, 2018 10:29 am

I've been so happy with my broadcast that im looking to put it on the gimbal. The wide end of the canon is amazing, but the lens is physically too big. Ideally I'd like to get the 8mm optar but at 15.1mm it sounds pretty close. I've had my other optars servcied and the 25 is now fine, the 12 is ok - I think its just a bit knackered - if I put it on with the serial number up, its ok, any other oreintation and it vignettes!
I know the elite 9.5 covers, as I had a damaged one (which I wish I'd kept now and repaired as it was only £450). Howie/Denny, have you tried the 8mm optar? I bought a 50 off rus camera on ebay who's selling them new for £862, - he doesnt have the 9.5 but does have the 8, the factory has now ceased production, so its whether to take the gamble on the 8.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Ursa Broadcast sensor 16mm image circle

PostSat Jul 21, 2018 5:32 pm

The 9.5 Optar had slight darkening at the corners, so the 8mm will be more so. If you can deal with that, you should be fine. Sounds like the 12mm is off centered, which you should be able to get fixed.

The advantages of the Elite, is they are still around making S35 lenses and Anamorphic glass. I think they also stopped production of the S16 line, but just in the last year or so, and they still have inventory, last time I checked. Also some S16 Elites come up on eBay at good prices lately. Their is an Optika Elite (similar to Illuminas) 8mm, T/1.2 on eBay US site for good price, condition looks excellent.

I have my 9.5mm Mk4 Elite for sale (Mint in new condition) if you are interested. This is an Ultra Wide on the Broadcast camera’s 1-inch sensor, similar AOV to putting a 7.5mm on a 2/3rds ENG camera, which is where the ENG WA zooms normally start, and some 7.5mm. But going wider than 9.5, and more distortion starts creeping in. I find 11mm is working for me for my wide shots, (close to a 10mm on 2/3rds) with the Duclos 11-16 compact Tokina Zoom.

I am also looking at an Angie HR B4 Servo Zoom 8.3-125 f/1.7, but then you are back to the light sucking B4 Mount, so the f/1.7 is more like a f/2.0, still not bad.
Cheers
Last edited by Denny Smith on Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tim Schumann

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Re: Ursa Broadcast sensor 16mm image circle

PostSat Jul 21, 2018 8:50 pm

Canon 6.6-66mm T2.7 works very well on URSA Broadcast.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Ursa Broadcast sensor 16mm image circle

PostSun Jul 22, 2018 12:54 am

Interesting Tim, thanks. I am looking at an Angenieux HR 8.3-125 B4 Servo Zoom, nice and compact lens, should work well also with the B4 Mount.
Cheers
Denny Smith
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