Ursa Broadcast test against Panasonic HPX3100 & UrsaMiniPro

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Robert Betzner

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Ursa Broadcast test against Panasonic HPX3100 & UrsaMiniPro

PostSun Mar 04, 2018 8:16 pm

Hi there,

I did a test this weekend with an Ursa Broadcast (thanks to Teltec in Germany for providing the camera for a test) against a well known broadcast ENG Camera from Panasonic- the HPX3100.

I will post everything that I found out and Footage from both camaras in the next days. I will post original clips to download and a little clip of raw footage from the Ursa Broadcast and original P2 clips from the Panasonic.

Just a quick resume for now:
The Ursa Broadcast did quite a good job performing against a camera that costs about 8x more. But there were also some things where the Panasonic had some advantages.

It wasn't a laboratory test with measurement equipment but a "real life"-test in ENG situations and a low-light test for both cameras.

I'll post all of my findings and original footage in the next days.


Cheers

Robert
Last edited by Robert Betzner on Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Royce Hildreth

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Re: Ursa Broadcast test against Panasonic HPX3100

PostSun Mar 04, 2018 8:49 pm

I’m looking forward to your finding!


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Xtreemtec

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Re: Ursa Broadcast test against Panasonic HPX3100

PostMon Mar 05, 2018 8:27 am

Same here.. Thanks Robert for doing this. Very instrested in the results.
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV, ATEM TVS HD, 1M/E 4K, 2M/E Broadcast Studio 4K, Hyperdeck Studio Mini, SONY FS7 4K, Ursa Broadcast 4K
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Zack Pittman

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Re: Ursa Broadcast test against Panasonic HPX3100

PostTue Mar 06, 2018 12:04 am

Following this to see your results.
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Aaron Rebbeck

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Re: Ursa Broadcast test against Panasonic HPX3100

PostTue Mar 06, 2018 12:19 am

Looking forward to your tests
Insert list of BMD things that i have to update here ->
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Wilson Luniz

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Re: Ursa Broadcast test against Panasonic HPX3100

PostThu Mar 08, 2018 5:26 am

Can't wait to see! :D
Wilson Luniz
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Robert Betzner

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Re: Ursa Broadcast test against Panasonic HPX3100

PostFri Mar 23, 2018 4:55 pm

Our test is now online with lots of footage to view and original footage to download.

You can find it here:

https://mindandvision.tv/experten-blog- ... atest.html

Cheers
Last edited by Robert Betzner on Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Ursa Broadcast test against Panasonic HPX3100

PostFri Mar 23, 2018 7:23 pm

Nice review Robert. Didn’t the Fuji Zoom you had, do you have a start/stop record button or a push button to set the iris (push for auto set)? This is supposed to work on the Ursa Broadcast for setting the iris.

I found your comments on IQ very interesting, and it seems the ginger gain shots are cleaner than on the BM Micro Studio 4K Camera, which has the same sensor. I have one of the first Micro Studio 4K Cameras released, and have yet need to black balance (BB is auto on the camera, should be the same on the Broadcast) and I have not yet had any dead pixel issues. I record the Micro Broadcast to a PixE Monitor/recorder, and have alsomused the 1080i output with a switcher, no morie issues with this.
Interesting the internally recorded 1080i had issues.

Yes, BM audio mic preamps are not the best, I use a Sound Devices MixPreD and it works great, would be interesting to test the. I PreD AES digital out on the Broadcast Camera.
Danke
Last edited by Denny Smith on Wed May 23, 2018 1:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Denny Smith
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Robert Betzner

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Re: Ursa Broadcast test against Panasonic HPX3100

PostFri Mar 23, 2018 7:55 pm

Denny Smith wrote:Nice review Robert. Didn’t the Fuji Zoom yiu had, have a start/stop record button or a push button to set the iris (push for auto set)? This is supposed to work on the Ursa Broadcast for setting the iris.


Yes it had a record button and a push button for momentary iris. But the iris button didn't work. You have to push the iris button on the camera (below the LCD screen) to momentary auto-iris. It doesn't work very good though.

Regarding the clen Low-Light Shots - Take a look at the RAW images. I think there is some NR going on inside the camera ;)


Cheers
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Denny Smith

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Re: Ursa Broadcast test against Panasonic HPX3100

PostFri Mar 23, 2018 9:10 pm

Thanks Robert, I will. But, I think you are right, same thing going on with the Micro Studio Camera. I have been thinking of getting a Ursa Broadcast, knowing it’s physical limitations with switch settings or lack of. My use would be more of a Production Camera, than ENG news shooting. Erik Naso also like the image quality and it’s familiar formfactor.

But the overall image quality I have seen so far, looks very good, with good highlight roll off, and it has a higher base ISO than the Micro Studio. As a former Sony ENG shooter, the camera does have more familiarity than others I have used since, and my Panny AF100A, needs updating.
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Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Robert Kuzmanovic

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Re: Ursa Broadcast test against Panasonic HPX3100

PostSat Mar 24, 2018 2:23 pm

Great review Robert! Thank you.

Ursa Broadcast picture looks really good, I have downloaded your files from mega.
I do not own Micro Studio Camera, does anybody owns it and seen Robert's files from Ursa Broadcast?
I'm interested is there a difference in picture quality between those cameras since they use the same sensor.
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Denny Smith

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Re: Ursa Broadcast test against Panasonic HPX3100

PostSat Mar 24, 2018 5:32 pm

There is going to be a small difference, like the between the Micro Studio and Pocket camera, due to the new ER and bigger video image processor in the Broadcast camera, which is pushing the sensor to a higher level of performance. The new Firmware update to the Micro Studio helped clean up some noise, but the Broadcast camera looks like a cleaner image at +6 and 12dB. I have the Micro Studio Camera.
Cheers
Last edited by Denny Smith on Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Robert Kuzmanovic

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Re: Ursa Broadcast test against Panasonic HPX3100

PostSat Mar 24, 2018 5:50 pm

Denny Smith wrote:There is going to be a small difference, like theirmis between the Micro Drudio and Pocket camera, due to the new ER and bigger video image processor in the Broadcast camera, which is pushing the sensor to a higher level of performance. The new Firmware update to the Micro Studio helped clean up some noise, but the Broadcast camera looks like a cleaner image at +6 and 12dB. I have the Micro Studio Camera.
Cheers


Thank you Denny.

One more thing, what about Studio Camera 4K? Does Micro Studio Camera 4K and Studio Camera 4K have the same picture quality and noise level?
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Denny Smith

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Re: Ursa Broadcast test against Panasonic HPX3100

PostSat Mar 24, 2018 8:23 pm

I have not tested the larger Studio 4K Camera, but from what I have seen, they should be very close, and we’re designed to intercut with each other, slight shading differences can be adjusted with the ATEM CCU.
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Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Patrick Rinner

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Re: Ursa Broadcast test against Panasonic HPX3100

PostMon Mar 26, 2018 7:19 pm

I would like to know how the Ursa Broadcast performs compared to the Ursa Mini Pro with the B4 adapter in terms of low light. Can anyone compare those two?
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Denny Smith

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Re: Ursa Broadcast test against Panasonic HPX3100

PostTue Mar 27, 2018 4:55 am

These are two very different cameras. The UM Pro 4.6 sensor is windowed down to HD or the slightly larger 2K window, depending on the B4 lens being used. Comparing it with the 1-inch Studio 4K sensor is like comparing an apple and an orange, they are both fruit, but... :roll:

That said, I would expect better low light performance from the UM Pro, which has a native/base ISO OF 800, while the Broadcast Camera is ISO 400 one stop slower out the gate, so it is going to have less low light capability. You are also going to get two different looks from them, kind of like comparing an Micro Cinema to the Micro Studio. What the do have in common, is the camera body, and the various UM Pro accessories. Alsimthey are going to share in the BM image color science, although the are different generations of this also.

This would be an interesting comparison to see. ;)
Cheers
Last edited by Denny Smith on Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Robert Betzner

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Re: Ursa Broadcast test against Panasonic HPX3100

PostTue Mar 27, 2018 7:45 am

We have an Ursa Mini Pro. I can add a Low Light Shot to the existing ones from the Ursa Broadcast and the HPX3100 tonight. I'll let you know when it is online.

Cheers

Robert
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Patrick Rinner

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Re: Ursa Broadcast test against Panasonic HPX3100

PostTue Mar 27, 2018 10:27 am

That would be great! Because I already own a Ursa Mini Pro and I'm using it with a B4 lens most of the time (and I guess I'm not the only one using this combination). Now that the Ursa Broadcast is out, I'm considering to sell my Ursa Mini Pro and buy a Broadcast instead, but only if it has some low light advantages with a B4 lens.

The image itself is not an issue for me, don't mind if it a more cinematic look or a broadcast look, but low light with B4 is the biggest issue for me.

I am really looking forward to the low light test shots, thank you!
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Robert Betzner

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Re: Ursa Broadcast test against Panasonic HPX3100

PostWed Mar 28, 2018 10:16 am

Hi,

I extended my existing test with a low light shot from our Ursa Mini Pro.

Please have a look at the whole test. You will find a new section with a comparison bewteen the Ursa Mini Pro and the Ursa Broadcast regarding Low Light. That includes a Youtube video that compares both images side by side.

I also added the original Footage of the Ursa Mini Pro shot in the download section of the test.

You can find the test here:

https://mindandvision.tv/experten-blog- ... atest.html


Cheers
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Patrick Rinner

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Re: Ursa Broadcast test against Panasonic HPX3100

PostWed Mar 28, 2018 10:36 am

Thank you very much for doing the test!

And wow, I'm really disappointed now that the low light capabilities of the Ursa Broadcast are that bad. Makes me definately reconside buying some Ursa Broadcasts for my production, kinda sad.

But thanks again for clearing that up for me!

Btw: what shutter did you use?
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Robert Betzner

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Re: Ursa Broadcast test against Panasonic HPX3100 & UrsaMini

PostWed Mar 28, 2018 11:35 am

1/50 Shutter on both cameras.

Cheers
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Denny Smith

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Re: Ursa Broadcast test against Panasonic HPX3100 & UrsaMini

PostWed Mar 28, 2018 4:25 pm

Patrick, I think your expectations were I think a little high. The larger the sensor, the better the low light capability as there are more, and usually larger, photosites to capture the image. The Broadcast is camera is basically a Super 16 (slightly larger than the Pocket camera) sensor with a 4K resolution (so photosites are smaller than they would be in a HD 1080 sensor), and much smaller than the same resolution in a sensor than a sensor almost twice its size, even in Window mode, the photosites are still larger, as in the Ursa Mini. So expecting similar low light performance between these two cameras is unrealistic it my opinion, and Robert’s text shows this to be the case. Also, the UM Pro B4 Mount Only has a 1/2 stop light loss, and the Broadcast B4 Mount has a 1-stop light loss, reducing the amount of light to the sensor even more.

In camera Video processing can only do so much to reduce the noise floor in low light situations. That said, the smaller a 4K sensor, the more light you need to give it to get a good image quality. Also, the Ursa Broadcast was not designed to be a low light camers either, but more for use in controlled Studio situations and ENG style shooting in normal (daylight or good available light situations) and not for shooting Cinema type mood scenes, or for recording in other low light situations.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Xtreemtec

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Re: Ursa Broadcast test against Panasonic HPX3100 & UrsaMini

PostWed Mar 28, 2018 8:28 pm

What Denny Says.. What did you expect? No broadcast camera gets away with very low light.. Maybe a brand new Sony with the sensor of the A7s at Iso 90.000 :shock:

A lot of ENG work you have lights with you.. Festival and concert registrations are a whole different ballgame..

I was suprised to see the Panasonic fail that hard in the low light test.. Coming from JVC HM700 (1/3 chip) cams, the Ursa out performs the JVC cams.. :D

Not sure how BMD is working the sensor in HD at the moment.. But they could adapt some clever way to get more light out of photocells in HD mode..
But i don't know how patents are working on this...
Image
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV, ATEM TVS HD, 1M/E 4K, 2M/E Broadcast Studio 4K, Hyperdeck Studio Mini, SONY FS7 4K, Ursa Broadcast 4K
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Denny Smith

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Re: Ursa Broadcast test against Panasonic HPX3100 & UrsaMini

PostWed Mar 28, 2018 10:41 pm

Interesting idea Daniel, combining pixel to get larger HD pixel size.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
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Xtreemtec

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Re: Ursa Broadcast test against Panasonic HPX3100 & UrsaMini

PostSun Apr 01, 2018 5:57 pm

Okee finnaly was able to put my Ursa Broadcast to the truck today.. Played a bit with it and found a few quirks.. :?

First off, Tryed to get the camera into 2160P50 mode.. But it did not want to go there.. I was like why not? 30P was the maximum i could get out of it.. After searching for a while in the camera menu i found out that not all codecs allow you to go 2160P out.. DNxHD only allows for 1080P HD mode.. Prores only allows up to 30P. When set to RAW recording. Then 2160P 50/60 gets unlocked.. :oops: :oops:
Guess it has to do with encoding of the data that it does not allow 2160P50 while running Prores or DNxHD(HR) But i was quite disapointent to find out i'm not able to record other then RAW when running 2160P50 live setup.. (Guess this will change when other codecs come trough.. DNxHR )
But would be nice that if you try to set a setting that is not allowed by the codec that you would just get a popup warning you that is not possible.. Instead of guess why not.. **Could have read the manual.. But hey i'm a tech guy :lol: It is my flaw to test and play before RTFM.... :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Then i connected it dual SDI to run Shading.. I had switched the Atem to 1080 because of what i wrote above here..
Set my Atem 4ME to 3G Level A because of my SDI > HDMI converters don't handle level B very well..
Only to find out my Return did not work at all at the camera.. So level A on the input is not supported (FW5.0 out of the box) I have to wait for my USB-C cable to come in to do the latest FW update.. Which mentioned something about Level A support.

Alright set MV outputs to a different standard and gone back to Level B.. Camera did not react yet.. While having return video on PGM.. It did not do shading.. So back into the menu.. Only to find out that for some reason it did not save the Camera ID to 1.. But was at Cam ID 99.. :roll: Not sure how that happend.. I was quite sure that i put it back to ID 1 before leaving the menu.. But OK. 1 it is again and yes the cam imiditaly gone into purple overdrive.. :) Yes i had set the colors very purple to see a difference.. haha..
What is quite strange is that you can go as high as ID 99.. :P Would that mean something is coming that need that much channels? Some way of routing Control ID's ?? Who will know right..

Okee then tryed a couple of different analog lenses.. All seem to suffer from the choppy Iris function.. Which is not good at all.. Hope they will fix this soon.. As of now it won't work for anyone used to shading broadcast cameras.. As Sony, JVC, Panasonic all do this very very smooth.. :!:

Also i do hope they will integrate the Continues Auto Iris function soon.. With B4 lenses you have a little bit of light loss at the end.. Not that strong as with a photolens.. But when i have it at F4 You can see when zooming in all the way it will get a little bit darker at the end.. It should in fact compensate for this in stand alone mode to keep the lighting level the same by opening up the iris a bit.



Then some things to note on the Software Shading panel.. I already thoughed this was a issue when i was working on my Shading converter for Sony Panasonic and JVC.. But now with the Ursa my issues are confirmed..

  • Color wheels are way to coarse.. The image of the camera turns too rapid to a huge color difference.. With a correction of 0.05 you already have a very tint of color over your image..
    In the middle the level of correction migh be a bit less to have a better change of subtile corrections.
  • Iris Control Black level changes to easy when tring to adjust iris.. Ofcourse you can push CTRL or SHIFT button to hold fix 1.. But it would be good to have a blacklevel lock button. So when Black Level is locked only the iris is going..
  • The Coarse slider next to the Iris slider does not make sense at all.. It only limits / reduces the top level of your iris control. At a sony RCP when you kick down the coarse slider (turn a knob) It will narrow the level you can change with a full swing of the iris handle.. But it does based on where the Iris slider is at that moment. So if you say oke this is my default iris value for today.. Then go from coarse to fine.. And from that piont on your full iris swing will do +50 -50 maximum instead of +1000 - 1000.. The current Coarse to fine does reduce your level from Iris closed to F12.. What can i do with that ??? :lol: Because you are already pushing the Cam to +6db for most venues.. And then i can i get a range from F12 to F18/closed... Not very usefull.
  • When openend up the 3 wheel color corrector.. The 4 sliders below it (Contrast, Saturation, Hue, RGB) dont have a reset on them.. To reset them to default you have to reset the whole Channel. A simple right click while hovering above the control would be enough to reset the value to factory default.. This is how they do it on 90% of the software i know..
So far my conclusions on the Ursa Broadcast on the Atem 4ME for so far.. Next friday we have a full day of playing and testing with the Ursa next to a Grass Valley LDK8000 to compare shading and light sensivity.. Could be fun to see.. :)
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV, ATEM TVS HD, 1M/E 4K, 2M/E Broadcast Studio 4K, Hyperdeck Studio Mini, SONY FS7 4K, Ursa Broadcast 4K
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Howard Roll

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Re: Ursa Broadcast test against Panasonic HPX3100 & UrsaMini

PostMon Apr 02, 2018 3:35 am

Even at 12 years old the LDK8000 is a beast, that will be an interesting comparison. Looking forward to the comparison.
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Patrick Acum

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Re: Ursa Broadcast test against Panasonic HPX3100 & UrsaMini

PostMon May 21, 2018 9:40 pm

Ive just picked up an ursa broadcast to use as a s16 camera. Ive been using it with the canon 8-64. I really love the look of this (i have a ump and a um46). There is noise, even at 0db, but it looks good to my eye. I've also picked up a couple of illumina optars, which I know Howie has too.
Ive also managed to get the meteor 5-1 17-69 working. You need to remove the rear metal cap otherwise it'll hit the sensor glass but it does sort of work. Wide, it vignettes (tho its clear on the um46 in window for the whole zoom). The look is very much akin to the helios 44, so quirky, swirly, but cool.
I've got an upcoming project where we're using it like an s16 camera with zooms on the shoulder for some doc elements on the street, then using the ump on the slider or sticks with primes for considered pieces to camera.
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David Hutchinson

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Re: Ursa Broadcast test against Panasonic HPX3100 & UrsaMini

PostTue May 22, 2018 2:38 pm

Xtreemtec wrote:Guess it has to do with encoding of the data that it does not allow 2160P50 while running Prores or DNxHD(HR) But i was quite disapointent to find out i'm not able to record other then RAW when running 2160P50 live setup.. (Guess this will change when other codecs come trough.. DNxHrR


Daniel if you set record to prores 4k 422 then you can get 50p out of the camera without using dng raw.

Also all the cameras -bmmsc bmsc - allow up to id 99. It's just a thing :-)

I am super happy with the broadcast camera, just ordering up another 2. Using an HD Lens - Fujinon xa17x7.6 and pictures are really fantastic. Low light is not a problem at all. We do a lot of sports and not many of those take place in the dark.... and those that do I can bring lights. ;-) ;)

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