Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K!!!

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Gene Kochanowsky

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostSun Apr 08, 2018 12:19 am

If that box photo is to be believed, it looks like an S16 sensor in an MFT mount. Which is what I would expect for the BMPCC2. That way all your BMPCC1 lenses, speed boosters, etc. will just work.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostSun Apr 08, 2018 1:46 am

Johan Cramer wrote:
Yue Shi Lai wrote:Now the Pocket/Micro Cinema's Fairchild CIS 1910 achieves its dynamic range with a 6.5 µm pixel pitch (basically what would have been a Super 35 sized 4K sensor, cropped to 2K), and 1.2 e- readout noise (modern Sony STARVIS is ~ 0.8 e- at high gain). Now the mystery is, how do you make a 4K Super 16mm sensor, with 1/4 the pixel size and full well capacity, and say 50% better SNR, not still 1.5/4 ~ -1.4 stops lower in dynamic range? Does this camera/sensor combine multiple EV (spatially, like Fujifilm SuperCCD SR, or temporally, like RED HDRx)?

For now, we have every reason to assume that the camera uses the 1" 4K sensor of the Micro Studio Camera.


By not assuming it is the same as a 5 year old hot sensor. It's likely their latest pixels are going to be much better, as is the latest greater than 4k 1 inch version of the microstudio and Sony's.
Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostSun Apr 08, 2018 1:55 am

Figuring our how to make the BMPCC work in situations other than a locked down “narrative” mode is a real education. I’d go as far as to say that cutting your teeth on a BMPCC (or BMCC) is probably the best modern day equivalent to the old standard 16mm film camera you’d learn on in film school. Nothing is done for you, and everything requires thought. From multiple crop ratios and flange depths, to learning about a library of potential lenses (new and old), to solving your own unique stabilization issues, managing large amounts of raw data (or the space hungry “thick negative” that ProRes offers), along with power management— and with it better time management. And the learning it took to color or “develop” the footage you shot to get the look you want made you go beyond the traditional skills required of a camera operator. Oh, and manual focusing, that is a skill worth developing.

I appreciate Blackmagic’s original cameras for what they (often paninfully) required me to learn. I don’t flinch now when a video camera doesn’t have “amazing AF,” or a sensor size I’m not used to, or “short” battery life. Haha. And even with the more expensive 4K cameras I own, I still feel like the best images come from my BMPCC in 12-bit raw. I believe 2K (or 1080p) will be a relevant resolution for a long time, so I have no plans to sell my BMPCC’s. I’m excited for the new 4K Pocket, absolutely, but the original is still an incredible tool Inwant in my bag.
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Yue Shi Lai

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostSun Apr 08, 2018 1:59 am

Wayne Steven wrote:By not assuming it is the same as a 5 year old hot sensor. It's likely their latest pixels are going to be much better, as is the latest greater than 4k 1 inch version of the microstudio and Sony's.


As you even quoted, I have not. I am assuming the readout noise of a current Sony STARVIS Exmor R sensor, being ~ 0.8 e- for IMX185 and IMX224 vs. Fairchild CIS1910's 1.2 e-, a factor 1.5 SNR improvement. And I doubt BMD has a much better manufacturer than Sony (in fact, neither current Fairchild, nor CMOSIS, the "known" BMD sources, ever reaches 0.8 e- noise). By comparison, a non-quantitative "much better" is just wishful thinking.

And the factor 1.5 gain in SNR is never going to compete with the full-well capacity that have shrunken proportionally with the pixel area.

https://www.stemmer-imaging.co.uk/en/kn ... -capacity/
Last edited by Yue Shi Lai on Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:17 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Ellory Yu

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostSun Apr 08, 2018 2:01 am

Gene Kochanowsky wrote:If that box photo is to be believed, it looks like an S16 sensor in an MFT mount. Which is what I would expect for the BMPCC2. That way all your BMPCC1 lenses, speed boosters, etc. will just work.

Well if that's the case, an S16 sensor and MFT mount, then the 4K is just like just putting a lipstick on a old pig. I'm tired of that old BMPCC look and don't get me wrong, it is nice if you want that vintage 16mm look. I was hoping this can be a B or C cam to the URSA 4K and URSA Minis. Well, let's see on Monday.
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Steve Holmlund

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostSun Apr 08, 2018 2:20 am

Ellory Yu wrote:
Gene Kochanowsky wrote:If that box photo is to be believed, it looks like an S16 sensor in an MFT mount. Which is what I would expect for the BMPCC2. That way all your BMPCC1 lenses, speed boosters, etc. will just work.

Well if that's the case, an S16 sensor and MFT mount, then the 4K is just like just putting a lipstick on a old pig. I'm tired of that old BMPCC look and don't get me wrong, it is nice if you want that vintage 16mm look. I was hoping this can be a B or C cam to the URSA 4K and URSA Minis. Well, let's see on Monday.


Could someone explain what they mean by “S16mm look” (vs. S35mm look)? I understand the historical reference and the current FOV differences. Is there something else going on optically?

Put another way, if you have an S16 camera and an S35, and they have lenses chosen to deliver the same FOV, and the lenses are from the same design family, and both cameras shoot at the same resolution, is there still a difference?


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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostSun Apr 08, 2018 2:32 am

Ellory Yu wrote:is just like just putting a lipstick on a old pig


Hey I like this pig. It's my favourite pig :lol: I could stand a fattened up version of my pig :lol:
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostSun Apr 08, 2018 2:32 am

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Gene Kochanowsky

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostSun Apr 08, 2018 2:37 am

Steve Holmlund wrote:Put another way, if you have an S16 camera and an S35, and they have lenses chosen to deliver the same FOV, and the lenses are from the same design family, and both cameras shoot at the same resolution, is there still a difference?


I match my BMPCC, BMMCC, to my a6500, a6300 shooting UHD all the time. And I've asked people to tell me which shots are which, and so far no takers. They look pretty much the same to me. Not that I'm anything other than a rank amateur.

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John Paines

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostSun Apr 08, 2018 2:47 am

Steve Holmlund wrote:Put another way, if you have an S16 camera and an S35, and they have lenses chosen to deliver the same FOV, and the lenses are from the same design family, and both cameras shoot at the same resolution, is there still a difference?


Yes. The most obvious "tell" is greater depth of field with S16 v. S35, because you need a much wider lens to achieve the same FOV in S16mm versus S35, and the wider the lens (all else being equal), the more DOF. The result is, backgrounds are less likely to be blurred, an effect widely if unconsciously associated with "cinema", by general audiences. Of course, you can achieve the same result (blurred backgrounds) by using a wider F-stop in S16mm (versus same shot with 35mm).

Also, traditionally, S16mm in the film realm was much grainier than 35mm, at least in the old days before T-grain stocks, and that association persists. The BMPCC image has a certain "grit" to it and is probably the first relatively low cost digital camera where the noise wasn't positively ugly, shouting "video". BMPCC noise is more like film grain, which for a lot of people is a plus, giving the image texture and life.
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostSun Apr 08, 2018 2:48 am

Tyson Preyer wrote:Figuring our how to make the BMPCC work in situations other than a locked down “narrative” mode is a real education. I’d go as far as to say that cutting your teeth on a BMPCC (or BMCC) is probably the best modern day equivalent to the old standard 16mm film camera you’d learn on in film school. Nothing is done for you, and everything requires thought. From multiple crop ratios and flange depths, to learning about a library of potential lenses (new and old), to solving your own unique stabilization issues, managing large amounts of raw data (or the space hungry “thick negative” that ProRes offers), along with power management— and with it better time management. And the learning it took to color or “develop” the footage you shot to get the look you want made you go beyond the traditional skills required of a camera operator. Oh, and manual focusing, that is a skill worth developing.

I appreciate Blackmagic’s original cameras for what they (often paninfully) required me to learn. I don’t flinch now when a video camera doesn’t have “amazing AF,” or a sensor size I’m not used to, or “short” battery life. Haha. And even with the more expensive 4K cameras I own, I still feel like the best images come from my BMPCC in 12-bit raw. I believe 2K (or 1080p) will be a relevant resolution for a long time, so I have no plans to sell my BMPCC’s. I’m excited for the new 4K Pocket, absolutely, but the original is still an incredible tool Inwant in my bag.



Exactly my thoughts. The BMPCC has helped me learn so much about the process of film making.
The $999 price tag has paid itself over many many times with jobs alone, but the education I've gained from working with it has been near priceless.

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BMPCC4K: Once I see what it offers, and I like what is see, I'll definitely add it to the stable.
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostSun Apr 08, 2018 7:27 am

Tyson Preyer wrote:Figuring our how to make the BMPCC work in situations other than a locked down “narrative” mode is a real education. I’d go as far as to say that cutting your teeth on a BMPCC (or BMCC) is probably the best modern day equivalent to the old standard 16mm film camera you’d learn on in film school. Nothing is done for you, and everything requires thought. From multiple crop ratios and flange depths, to learning about a library of potential lenses (new and old), to solving your own unique stabilization issues, managing large amounts of raw data (or the space hungry “thick negative” that ProRes offers), along with power management— and with it better time management. And the learning it took to color or “develop” the footage you shot to get the look you want made you go beyond the traditional skills required of a camera operator. Oh, and manual focusing, that is a skill worth developing.

I appreciate Blackmagic’s original cameras for what they (often paninfully) required me to learn. I don’t flinch now when a video camera doesn’t have “amazing AF,” or a sensor size I’m not used to, or “short” battery life. Haha. And even with the more expensive 4K cameras I own, I still feel like the best images come from my BMPCC in 12-bit raw. I believe 2K (or 1080p) will be a relevant resolution for a long time, so I have no plans to sell my BMPCC’s. I’m excited for the new 4K Pocket, absolutely, but the original is still an incredible tool Inwant in my bag.



this is why I fell in love with the BMPCC and BMD in general. While everyone else served nice silver plates with tons of sugar glaze on the otherwise bland dish, BMD was able to serve a nice home cooked meal on a simple plate; something you have to taste to find out why.

People kept on looking for this, for that, and all other glittery stuff, but BMD stepped right and just said, no you don't need those marketing ********, these are the only stuff you'll ever need; AND THEY ARE SPOT ON; surely there are some quirks here and there but they listen! (another trait i love about BMD by the way, they grow with their users, and they listen to them).

That BMPCC with its "just" 1080p resolution became the perfect teaching device for me. Learned from it, now that I can take in bigger jobs, sometimes use Arri cameras, that little camera can still step up and work with the big boys. it is that good of camera, sadly not everyone saw it as how most of us see it, but i'm glad I did. I am very thankful for Blackmagic Design.

I'm excited for Monday. (Now you don't hear that often do you? HAHA)
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostSun Apr 08, 2018 12:48 pm

I own the Veydra primes for the micro cinema camera. They have a great image for the price if you are embracing the super 16 look instead of settling for it. The lensrentals blog recently published a review comparing them to the Zeiss cp2.

I switched away from the pocket to the micro for the image and audio improvements, but looking forward to a cable-less solution with the new pocket.
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Dmitry Shijan

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostSun Apr 08, 2018 1:18 pm

For me personally sensor dynamic range is the main question, not 4k.
Larger sized Micro Cinema 4K brick may have more sense for me than new oversized all-in one pocket 4K. Something similar to Canon XC15 but with M4/3 mount, with removable side handle and with ProRes/RAW codec may be beautiful compromise between Pocket and Micro but seems BM don't want go that way.
If they add ProRes RAW to BMMCC and Pocket firmware, those cameras stay popular and don't be outdated.
Pocket 4K is actually not a pocket anymore. From leaked images and banners it looks like bulky DSLR sized camera not too friendly for rigging.
Low profile camera body matters. Too wide camera bodies makes more difficult access to the lens. All classic and modern cinema cameras tend to be very slim compare to photo cameras with integrated side grips. Low profile slim camera body always looks more natural inside the rig.

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Ryan Earl

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostSun Apr 08, 2018 3:09 pm

Dmitry,

Your setup looks great, I am working with wooden camera parts and it is difficult to manage. I think I will try out the small rig cage with your accessories.
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostSun Apr 08, 2018 4:26 pm

Blackmagic should offer more accessories for the Micro Cinema Camera. That little camera has a lot of potential, as demonstrated by the inventor of the One Little Goat Remote.
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostSun Apr 08, 2018 5:11 pm

Ryan Earl wrote:Dmitry,

Your setup looks great, I am working with wooden camera parts and it is difficult to manage. I think I will try out the small rig cage with your accessories.


Ryan, Dmitry’s rig parts fit the Woodcamera Micro Cage, except for the HDMI lock, which I find is not really necessary. I have his new DB15 breakout box, and the grip Rosette Mount, bothmof whcih fit nicely on the WC Micro Cage, and you can use the BM Ursa Mini grip, to get push to focus/iris controls with MFT lenses.
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostSun Apr 08, 2018 7:21 pm

Gene Kochanowsky wrote:Maybe it's a Sony sensor with BM color science and 4:2:2 12 bit raw? Could be a game changer.


RAW is not 4:2:2 nor 4:4:4. Those terms don't really apply to RAW data.
From RAW you can produce 4:2:2 or near 4:4:4 (if sensor is oversampled) end video depending what you want (what codec was used to record it).
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Gene Kochanowsky

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostSun Apr 08, 2018 9:26 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:
Gene Kochanowsky wrote:Maybe it's a Sony sensor with BM color science and 4:2:2 12 bit raw? Could be a game changer.


RAW is not 4:2:2 nor 4:4:4. Those terms don't really apply to RAW data.
From RAW you can produce 4:2:2 or near 4:4:4 (if sensor is oversampled) end video depending what you want (what codec was used to record it).


Sorry, I forgot the [10 bit and]. Thanks for being the editor of the internet. It's a big job.
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostSun Apr 08, 2018 11:54 pm




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donaldsmecky

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 12:21 am

Ellory Yu wrote:I hope it's an S35 with an active EF mount. S16 and MFT mount were great for the original but we are passed that S16 look, particularly with 4K. But really, most people buy a metabones SB just so that they can use their EF lenses on the original. Till Monday then.



Fully agree.

I have the original pocket camera and think its great, still using it and getting pleasing results - but the ridiculous crop factor is not something I would ever want to deal with again. I also do not have warm feelings for MFT and similar, money spent on these formats is (in the long term - of course you can make good on them in the short term, as with anything) just down the tubes.. crop sensor lenses simply do not hold value like their full frame relatives, which is not surprising..

I know everyone is coming from a different place with different needs, but what got me to buy the first pocket camera was the combination of its cinematic picture quality (which still holds up today I think) and the price point. The "pocket" form factor wasn't a selling point to me.. heck if it had the same features and price it could have been shaped like an 80s era vhs tape camcorder as far as I'm concerned :lol:

The tiny sensor, mft and crop were the negatives I had to weigh when considering.

A new improved version to me includes 4k, some form of high frame rate recording, and most importantly.. drop the crop..
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 12:38 am

donaldsmecky wrote:The tiny sensor, mft and crop were the negatives I had to weigh when considering.

...... and most importantly.. drop the crop..

Do you think people refer to a Super16 camera a having a "crop" factor?
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 12:39 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:
Gene Kochanowsky wrote:Maybe it's a Sony sensor with BM color science and 4:2:2 12 bit raw? Could be a game changer.


RAW is not 4:2:2 nor 4:4:4. Those terms don't really apply to RAW data.
From RAW you can produce 4:2:2 or near 4:4:4 (if sensor is oversampled) end video depending what you want (what codec was used to record it).


Raw means unaltered/preprocessed sensor data, but has been hijacked by Bayer colour sensor users. Sigma and three chip has 4:4:4. You could maybe argue that 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 from a single chip bayrr was, as it is unaltered levels, but the debayering can stuff things around
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 12:46 am

Tristan Pemberton wrote:
donaldsmecky wrote:The tiny sensor, mft and crop were the negatives I had to weigh when considering.

...... and most importantly.. drop the crop..

Do you think people refer to a Super16 camera a having a "crop" factor?



Well, I would argue its an apples and oranges comparison - in the film days of course it wasn't a crop factor, the actual film was 16mm which determined fov etc.

But in the digital domain what relevance does such an "artificial" limitation have? I see only inconvenience and no advantages..
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Gene Kochanowsky

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 1:02 am

One difference would be that a digital camera has the ability to shoot more than one "film size", whereas I'm not aware of a film camera that could shoot more than one size of film.
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 2:10 am

Donald, the Super 16 digital format is just as relevant as a S16 film format. Your standard Cine Super 35mm format is also a former film gate size, does that make it any less of a “crop” sensor. This term “crop sensor” is an old marketing term coined to sell digital still 35%mm cameras that had a slightly smaller (X1.5) than a 35mm film still camera. A S16 size sensor or a even MFT sensor (which is just slightly Miller than STD 35mm Academy film gage size) is not a cropped sensor, but a digital format it their own right.

The Pocket Camera sensor was not cropped, it started out as a 1-inch/S16 gate size sensor. Is a S35mm digital sensor, a cropped sensor? It is technically, if you are comparing it to a full frame 35mm DSLR Camera. What about the BM Ursa Mini 4K with a smaller sensormthsn the UM 4.6, that would be a cropped sensor too, using your logic.
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 2:12 am

Gene, some of the 35mm cine csmeras could shoot more than one gate size on 35mm film, 2-perf or 3-perf for example.
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Yue Shi Lai

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 2:20 am

Wayne Steven wrote:Sigma and three chip has 4:4:4. You could maybe argue that 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 from a single chip bayrr was, as it is unaltered levels, but the debayering can stuff things around


Actually, that goes deeper into the core of the issue:

- Virtually no camera produce "raw" that are unaltered ADC levels. Most stills camera apply heavy denoising (e.g. Sony A7 being famous for "star-eating", the longer exposure, the fewer stars when doing astrophotography).

- Sigma's Foveon X3 (Quattro have red and green at half resolution) is not truly 4:4:4. The raw sensor is not even RGB, but something like white-yellow-red, which is then transformed into RGB. Furthermore, so few photons reach the lower layers, that in practice the "raw" is after significant gain increase and denoising. In fact, a Sigma DP Merrill above ISO 400 exhibits such significant red and green color bleed from the denoising, that you would never consider to be an alternative to a 3 CMOS 4:4:4 camera.

- And I also suspect BMD cameras have at least adjusted gain levels, comparing the response to the quantum efficiency from sensor data sheets.
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 2:26 am

I recently read that the newer BM sensors employ dual gain sensors, like the Varicam, EVA1 and GH5S, only it implementation is automatic, depending on the ISO setting. This gives the higher ISO settings the same clean output as the lower settings.
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 4:42 am

Denny Smith wrote:I recently read that the newer BM sensors employ dual gain sensors, like the Varicam, EVA1 and GH5S, only it implementation is automatic, depending on the ISO setting. This gives the higher ISO settings the same clean output as the lower settings.
Cheers


I think most of Blackmagic sensors are dual gain but they use it mostly to squeeze extra dynamic range out of the images. The only one that is not is likely the 4K Global shutter sensor.
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 4:53 am

Thst's only one type of foveon. There is monitored drop off of signal into blue, and green that are calculated out by intensity of red etc, but it essentially should be red green blue with some cross talk etc (which doesn't sound nice for their claim). The original sensor colour stack was one to one as far as I know.
Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 6:01 am

Denny Smith wrote:Donald, the Super 16 digital format is just as relevant as a S16 film format. Your standard Cine Super 35mm format is also a former film gate size, does that make it any less of a “crop” sensor. This term “crop sensor” is an old marketing term coined to sell digital still 35%mm cameras that had a slightly smaller (X1.5) than a 35mm film still camera. A S16 size sensor or a even MFT sensor (which is just slightly Miller than STD 35mm Academy film gage size) is not a cropped sensor, but a digital format it their own right.

The Pocket Camera sensor was not cropped, it started out as a 1-inch/S16 gate size sensor. Is a S35mm digital sensor, a cropped sensor? It is technically, if you are comparing it to a full frame 35mm DSLR Camera. What about the BM Ursa Mini 4K with a smaller sensormthsn the UM 4.6, that would be a cropped sensor too, using your logic.



Perhaps I chose my words poorly to express what I intended.

I accept what your saying, and certainly the physical size of the digital sensor isn't the root issue, after all smart phones and similar devices have miniscule sensors but usually capture a very wide image (though of course size will determine characteristics of the image produced) - the thing I take issue with is the focal length / fov obtained from one's lenses, this is the "crop" that I frankly would find a deal breaker in a new camera. Even with a 12mm lens the bmpcc is difficult to use in situations that need a wide angle.. because it will never be a truly wide angle.. So I guess its just not the right camera for the job - but that's a shame in my view, and there is no real alternative in its price bracket.

I can accept there are those who actively seek S16 even in digital, we all have different needs.. but personally I really don't get it.. it may be a format in its own right, but what's the point of a format that comes with such handicaps and no apparent benefit in digital? Traditionally 16mm existed as an economically viable alternative for independents and students.. I'm pretty sure most of those film makers would have gone 35mm and up if they had had the means..

The fact that a whole sub industry for focal reducers has sprung up to address a problem that should never have existed supports that..
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Nick Gombinsky

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 6:18 am

I think you're both arguing about different things. Donald, you're saying that you find no use for the S16mm format. Denny, you're saying that the definition "crop sensor" is useless when talking about cinema cameras that employ cinema standard sensor sizes.

Jumping in, I agree with Denny (you can even take it as far as saying that most RED cameras, all Alexas, the Sony F35, F65, and all of the industry standard cameras can be considered "crop" cameras by that definition), and as for how useful the S16 format is... each format has its own advantages and disadvantages. Sometimes you do want everything in focus, or a smaller camera, or a camera with a tiny sensor for shooting in a smaller scale and having good size reproduction in macro lenses or something.
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 7:24 am

I think there is definitely an advantage to having a 'crop' factor. When your 200mm becomes 580mm and you can get closer to the action, it's a huge advantage in many situations. You can get awesome lens compression!

When your macro lens gets magnified by a factory of 2.4, it's amazing!

A speed booster and a sigma 18-35mm and your wides are done and dusted. Shot sitting in a front passenger seat recently, filming the driver and I used the 18mm width for the first time in a long time. It was a tiny car.

The 'crop' factor is not a deal breaker. Honestly I couldn't bring myself to ever sell my pocket or micro cinema camera. It's worth more to me to have an extra camera for coverage that shoots raw, then the few bucks I'd get if I sold it.

Hell, I'm going to a friends wedding in bali and I'm taking my pocket, a glass cover for the lens mount and an 85mm lens that I'll just hold freehand. I'll Just create some insane, art-house, optical insanity and then bring that raw into resolve and massage it into something beautiful!

These cameras are beautiful paint brushes!
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 9:13 am

Dmitry Shijan wrote:Calmed Super 16 4K 60 internal raw external flip screen.


Yasssss!!!
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 9:15 am

donaldsmecky wrote:I can accept there are those who actively seek S16 even in digital, we all have different needs..

And this is me. Well, me for some of my projects.

Super16 lenses can be fast, have superb optics, long zoom ranges and still remain compact and light. That is simply not possible with a super35, 135 or VV.

I have a Canon 8-64mm T2.4 which is a superb piece of engineering - both optically and mechanically. It's great for documentary and can produce lovely shallow DOF if needed, or deep DOF when needed. Historically Super16 was - and still is - chosen OVER S35 for many films. Even when the budget was no obstacle. What some may consider a compromise, to others is an advantage.

It's not a CROP, it's a STANDARD. One of many. And there's a whole industry that's build around that standard.

Now if you want to use your photography (or cine) lenses designed for MFT, well I can understand the challenges. However, the real advantage of having a cinema camera (digital film replacement) with a MFT mount, is the shallow flange distance. This means you can use pretty much any lens ever made on the camera. I don't see that as a flaw, but very smart engineering.

So the idea of being able to use my S16 lenses to capture 4K is a real bonus. Even if the glass was not intended for that type of resolutions, you can still capture beautiful oversampled RAW images for 2K, or native 4K programs. And all the advantages of S16 zooms - and primes - remain.
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 10:05 am

Hi,

as someone who started out in the mid 90s on docs and music promos(in the UK) as assistant, super 16 was the default format for me. Later moved onto 35mm stuff but I still tend to think of lenses in terms of super 16, ie a 8mm or 9.5mm being quite wide. Whenever I worked on 35mm stuff I had to think of halving the focal length when considering field of view - just one of those quirks.

The idea of crop factor only seemed to come into being after the rise of the 5d. (I say seemed as it's just what I noticed). I tend to think of super 35mm now as standard size now. The idea of what is 'cinematic' for a lot of people is narrow depth of field - this is a generalisation but I think it was people moving from "standard" video cameras which pretty much everything was in focus who see this as the main thing. The biggest issue with larger sensors is actually keeping things in focus - how many of us have dealt with footage shot on a 5D or large sensor only to find out that the footage is out of focus slightly.

I really like the images that come out of the micro camera, plus I can instinctively tell what size lens I need because of my history. So if the new camera is that size sensor I would be fine with that.

Though it's all subjective. It could just be an old man waving his stick at the youngsters.
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 11:06 am

Sensor/stock size has nothing to do with FOV. You don’t get a S16 sensor to be able to do 500mm (in fullframe terms) FOV. Or a Fullframe/VistaVision to film superwide skateboard videos.. That makes no sense.

Sensor/stock size has something to do with cost and physical size. The smaller formats was made because it was cheaper. To open a new market (i.e. Making more money in the industry as a whole).

For a S16 sensor you have the same AOV lenses as for S35. Sure they are “wider” in physically mm. But mm is an arbitrary thing to talk about in lenses. We should really be using the term AOV/FOV. Then no such thing as “crop factor” would excist as we know it today.

So you want to get a s16 sensor today because it is physically smaller setup. Sensor and glass and live with the compromises that gives (i.e noise/grain and DOF). Or because it is cheaper (I do ‘t know about that today in practical terms).

The whole reason we have Alexa LF, Red Monstro/VV, Sony Venice and Kinefinity Mavo LF is to open a new market so we can sell more products. When S16 came about people had little money. And film was expensive.. today we are “rich” in the western world. We are fat and spend our money on big flatscreens, robot vacuums and self driving cars.. so it makes sense to open the LF market.
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Luca Di Gioacchino

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 12:56 pm

It looks like a pocket on steroids.
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 12:58 pm

Any word on the specs yet?
Wielding a Pocket Cinema Camera from a wheelchair.
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Robert Niessner

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 1:00 pm

There is now a leaked image of the more expensive version of the new Pocket Cinema Camera 4k:

IMG_2956.JPG
IMG_2956.JPG (609.74 KiB) Viewed 4302 times


My daughter already got hers and she loves it.
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rick.lang

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 1:00 pm

And now we return you to our original programming, the BMPCC2!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 1:09 pm

Sorry Rick, please do not whip me too hard :D
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 1:13 pm

There's a leaked photo of the new pocket cam on FB that someone from NAB posted. Like I said, it looks like the Pocket I on steroids.
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 1:16 pm

To me it really looks more like the successor to the BMCC.
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 1:49 pm

If I buy this, hopefully it will be shipping right away and won't be delayed, otherwise I might have to publish my unofficial (Potential) Reference Guide to (some) BM Cameras.

Menu: Four Course.

Year 1. Get excited at release of previously secret BM camera and order it, and wait for order.

Year 2+. Eagerly wait for the bugs to be ironed out.

Year 1+. Don't panic, you've already done your dough. Just wait.

Year 2+. Prepare to buy next product as a quality improvement measure.

5. If the camera is launched and John Brawley isn't already running around with it, then wait!

Copyright me 2018.

I wish I could remember the rest of it, rather funny at the time.
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.
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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 1:53 pm

Yes, seen some picture floating around. Pretty big. The guys that wanted (yet another) 4k BMCC looks like they are going to be pampered to (again). But didn't look that pocketee. I would have expected something more studio sized with ProRes raw extended to 14 bits.
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Brad Hurley

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 2:03 pm

I still feel like some of those "leaked" photos look like fakes, but we'll know for sure in a few hours.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 2:16 pm

Please. I want to own a legend of a camera.
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Gene Kochanowsky

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Re: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K???

PostMon Apr 09, 2018 2:29 pm

I don't think those photos were fakes. BM doesn't delete the fake photos.
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