Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

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Robert Niessner

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostFri May 18, 2018 3:07 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:
Robert Niessner wrote:So, Wayne. Care to link to the whitepaper of your technique?
What was the amount of resolution increase your method could yield?
And how costly in terms of processor calculations is it?


Lol! As any good engineer might say, it's priority (meaning nick off, you are not getting it for free Robert, and you should know better than to ask). :). I know a guy doing top end technology that won't even reveal his company name or patents, he's so paranoid after being in the real industry for years.


You said it was developed decades ago (20+ years) - so what happened to the method? Can't be worth any money today if it's so old and should have been replaced by far better methods today.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostFri May 18, 2018 3:42 pm

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:
Wayne Steven wrote:
People quote other's incomplete marketed works as complete too much, with no real experience in freshly designing something even as incomplete as their example themselves, let alone look into the dark and create something brand new.


Look what you said few posts above: "we need 8K to get perfect 4K"- it was your key argument for 8K sensor.[\quote]

I didn't say "we need 8K to get perfect 4K", where did I say that. Don't try to change what I say and try to put it in quotes as if I said it. How dare you Andrew. You have been deliberately trying to waste my time after I've been so nice to you carefully explaining things. If you want to be like that you can bugger off as well. It takes a bloody long time to write these things to sooth your ego. I'm just looking at your irrational stuff below, I think you should give up and stop trying to think others in a corner. Your arguments are not right and insulting, and apart from wrecking the thread I've had enough. Your temperament has been showing through your arguments for a while.

??????

For those that maybe a bit bamboozled by certain things here, I'll explain it clearly. Just remember the universe is often made up of simple things working together, making it appear complex. So, you have to read things, separating out the simple things and how they effect each other. In this case simple means work.

So 8k gives better 4k as you get a 4 pixel Bayer color group under a 4k pixel. It helps with Moir and aliasing, while delivering a naturally sharper image. But it does not get rid of things completely. The gap between the pixels still exists, but hopefully smaller than native 4k. So, there is still a gap around the border of the 4k pixel likely (some don't have much of a gap at all. I'm cutting this short), so a small anti-aliasing filter still would help, or 10k+ resolution, as per oversampling BM and Red already does (which I believe I might have mentioned before as better then 8k).

Now, extracting and calculating out 4k from 4k data, as a true 4k point cloud rather than secondary line test. It is as it seems a calculation if dubious quality, rather than perfect quality, as delayering also is. So, no guarantee of perfect pixels. Each pixel gives a little signals portion of what is under that point, usually mixed with surrounding pixels signal from low pass filtering. But it is something to work with. There are a number of elaborate techniques that can expand upon this data. But for 4k from 4k, you are deriving from neighbouring pixels, as in debayering, the likely hood of what was there in the scene. With no anti-aliasing filter you are getting more the pixel signal but still with some cross talk between the primaries, and a gap between pixels, and minor to deal with. But in terms of real definition, there is data to work with there.

Now, upscaling is not just as described. The industry is fairly ignorant (as most of US are to some naive extent). You ave to think, listen and learn to do more. To must ave the tools to think about how to do it better.

So, 8k does help Bayer, interpolation and filter, for lower resolutions. To get the real image you can blur afterwards (but frankly, the sharp Netflix stuff, like in the Expanse, looks good). It does help deliver most accuracy to the actual image than grainy s35 film, which is only and approximation. But if you look through 8k vision, you are going to see a lot of fuzziness too, but in image pickup the accuracy of the pixel helps the post workflow. Computational photography techniques depends on accuracy. Calculations. Sensors these days, not in some bygone era, offer 'up to' beyond old cinema film, and probably newer replacement stock. In the old days film looked so good through a lot of hard work to fake the image, by conforming the levels with filters, lenses, lighting, reflectors, different films stocks, make up etc, and heavy, costly post grading. But until electronic techniques, film grading wasn't too flash.

So, it really is about better tools for more work choices and better images to play with in post.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostFri May 18, 2018 3:56 pm

Who knows Robert. It's big corporate money to exploit something like that. Its on the to do list behind a lot of things. When I have the time and money to afford to spend on low priority expensive mid return projects, it might get a look in then. But as, you said, there has been some advances, and maybe some of them encroach on the list of techniques. But seriously, that is less significant compared to my higher priority projects.
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Fri May 18, 2018 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostFri May 18, 2018 3:59 pm

So, there is nearly another couple of hours down the drain.
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Rakesh Malik

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostFri May 18, 2018 4:17 pm

Savannah Miller wrote:RED is making a few cameras. They are making consumer level cameras for their new 4V platform, and they have a 4V camera incorporated into the new RED phone.


I think you're right that this is what the Red + Foxconn deal is about.

There is later going to be possibly a 6K or 8K add-on "cinema module" which is likely what Foxconn is making.


I'm expecting 4K or 5K for the cinema module, and 6K or 8K only for the holographic imaging that might require multiple concurrent modules, and the phone may not be enough for on its own.

I don't think the RED phone will do well because it's too large, expensive, and not the most practical thing. Unless the 4V format really takes off, I don't see it doing too well.


Red's really banking on the F4V format, but I think that if the cinema camera module delivers good enough quality that it will become very popular with gimbal users, and possibly even serve as a B-cam.

And it will also be able to control a DSMC2 camera, which will make it quite popular with Red camera users.
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Savannah Miller

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostSat May 19, 2018 7:54 am

One thing people are forgetting is the giants like Sony, Canon, Panasonic, etc. have much more experience building electronics.

RED Cameras are not much more advanced in their design than a Blackmagic camera compared to other manufacturers who can really push the envelope of size and performance. RED obviously has better sensors and image processing, but the cameras themselves are often a simpler design.

I have doubts as to how much RED can build a "game changing" smartphone given the experience other manufacturers have cramming tons of features into a small size, and the general overhead and experience required to design one.

Someone mentioned that the Hydrogen Cinema module would likely destroy the Pocket 4K in specs, but I don't think that's the case. It will definitely be good for what it is, but at $1295 the Pocket 4K is likely still 1/3 or 1/4 the price of Hydrogen+cinema module.

$1500 for a phone is too much. You need to get it down to $1000 to be competitive with everyone else. Why would the average consumer pay 1.5x the price for a phone that doesn't have the brand recognition and "cool factor" that an iPhone or Samsung Galaxy has? And on top of that it's missing features commonly found in ohter smartphones.
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Kim Janson

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostSat May 19, 2018 8:21 am

I have a feeling that the primary function of the RED smartphone will be something else than a phone, or even traditional smartphone. Probably not a mass product anyway.
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Wayne Steven

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostSat May 19, 2018 10:47 am

Red is probably just buying in expertise. The aptina tech, likely with Sony cross licensed tech, has gone to a former Motorola sensor division. I imagine there are a fair few ex Motorola phone employees and expertise at Motorola floating around. I've noticed the Motorola like characteristics on the phone. This is the sort of American centred technology that Red likes.

Savannah. They have showed nothing disruptive except for a display technology so far. For all we know, it just has two 4kp30+ cameras on the back with 11.5 stops going to low bit rate. It is really stuffed up not to release further details. It's like saying, be excited, we have slightly cleaner air to breath that is orange, and orange is the new great. Other cameras have had modules (Motorola again) and you could make a cinema module for that, even a multipoint 3D thing module. There are standards for module/component, and bigger processors, and great chipsets, for others to make something with a lesser screen. Sony could release something next year. With the delays since the patents, they could release something at the same time. Sure, the competition might be second rate, if the competition did it like that, but what else do they offer. So, they put in a lot of effort to do some top rate stuff, we believe. But is it much above what others could do.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostSat May 19, 2018 11:38 am

It should be obvious by now... Red isn't aiming to be competitive with other phones, it's aiming to create a new content channel. It isn't much more expensive the latest top end iPhone, but it does offer something unique with the f4v format. Red's aiming mainly for content creators with its first phone rather than for consumers.

Whether or not it will succeed is an open quesion, but it's not trying to be consumer level.

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostSat May 19, 2018 4:34 pm

Development costs for this phone are likely very high. I'm not surprised if the $1500 price was intended for mass market. I'm a content creator and I don't even have interest in the phone which gives me doubts as to how it will sell. I'd rather prefer a quality 2D experience.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostSun May 20, 2018 1:58 am

Except for the screen, I haven't seen anything that warrants more then say $499-$599. The screen is likely something like an extra $20 cost, which translates out to be maybe $100-$200 extra retail costs. Of course, to cover development costs/company buy in and manufacturing setup, they might be trying to cover that quickly.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostSun May 20, 2018 3:41 am

Incidentally, just found more details on the Facebook page, including links to the red 8k raw recorder monitor, and 16 bit 4k output from the camera, and some clips. Intriguing. More solidifies 8k being out there.

https://m.facebook.com/cinemartinteam/
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostSun May 20, 2018 4:54 am

How hard is it to build a camera? Blackmagic seems to put them out very quickly, and even Kinefinity has no working MAVO LF prototype, yet they plan to release the camera in October.
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rick.lang

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostSun May 20, 2018 5:21 am

How hard is it to build a camera? I’m thinking it’s a lot easier than finding a way out of the thread!

Still looking for the wormhole.


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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostSun May 20, 2018 9:39 am

But you're back. :)

People mistake that, a lot is done on what is done before. A lot of cameras are done on common components their manufacturers have figured out, even camera platform designs they might not even enhance, just put a case, rebadge and change the software, or software front end. If BM had to do everything themselves from the science to different levels of design in component manufacturing, from scratch to do a mini 4.6k level camera, it might take 100 years to never, and cost up to a hundred billion dollars (and maybe still 32x bigger).

A lot of work has already been done, as long as you don't try to do too much yourself, it can be done cheaper. You seriously think all those consumer cameras cost over $10 million to design. I had my mind eye on one orm manufacturer you could order your own cheap camera in unit lots of one thousand and ask them to put a recordable HDMI in and a manual mode and lens mount. Might still cost $500 or whatever, but a mass market version could be done for $200-$100 retail. There you go, all you fullhd people, get that, a video assistant and a speedbooster (for $200 you might get it included) and a shuttle etc. But you could just straight to flash for $200. I've got a $45 fullhd 25fps around, maybe that could be hacked to uncompressed to flash. It's fascinating, some of these cheap chipsets ingress raw from the sensor at 16mp 30fps+, it then is dumbed down to h264 low bit rate, but the data is there if you want to record uncompressed.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostSun May 20, 2018 10:24 am

if it is no business, it is no business and couple of hundreds excelent professional camera is no business for anyone, not even for the cinematographers that do it for work.

Normal consumers do not want professional camera. they want gopro or a phone camera that provides heavily and automatically prosesed video that is ready to distripute directly from the camera.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostSun May 20, 2018 11:27 am

You just hide the pro features and they buy their GoPro. You come along flip the menu item, plug in a recorder or high-speed card, and swap out the detachable lens. Could be a stills. The hundreds of thousands subsidize the cost. It's really just a low end C camera for hobbyist students and lowest end. Fun. Let everybody else buy their Micros and 8k vistas, people will probably learn more about the dynamic art of making a image work filming with something like that.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostSun May 20, 2018 3:03 pm

One can always wish, but it is also good to be careful what one wishes for, because you might get it.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostSun May 20, 2018 4:12 pm

It's not that bad. They used to use sensor sizes like used in $4k prosumer camcorders, which some people detest, but I still remember when they went to 1/4 then 1/6th inch sensors. 1/2.3 was excellent compared to that. These one inch sensors are pretty interesting too. Not small but not large.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostSun May 20, 2018 4:17 pm

Canon has announced they are officially in the sensor market. They have done a lot, makes sense. No sign of a 50mp, but this is only an official lineup, not behind the scenes, with 120mp straight to 5mp straight to fullhd. Odd gaps there.

Www.thenewcamera.com has an article over there.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostSun May 20, 2018 11:24 pm

rick.lang wrote:How hard is it to build a camera? I’m thinking it’s a lot easier than finding a way out of the thread!

Still looking for the wormhole.


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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostMon May 21, 2018 4:53 pm

Savannah Miller wrote:How hard is it to build a camera? Blackmagic seems to put them out very quickly, and even Kinefinity has no working MAVO LF prototype, yet they plan to release the camera in October.


Check out the Apertus project. The team is very open about what it's doing to get its first cameras out the door. It's a huge undertaking, since there's so much more involved than simply plopping a sensor in a box and adding a recorder, and that's not even accounting for ergonomics.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostMon May 21, 2018 10:23 pm

And the reborn Bolex...


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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostMon May 21, 2018 10:37 pm

Yeah... that was a great camera by all accounts, and yet the company wasn't able to survive.

And then there's AJA's Cion... took five years to develop, and AJA already had lots of engineering and maufacturing and recording experience yet... well, we all know where that went. It took three years of development afte launch to sort out the color science.

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 22, 2018 3:47 am

There have been a few more. I've even been approached to be officially involved with some of them. Problem is, people that want to use you (me) tend not to get the maximum as they are too focused on the personal game and gain.

Aperture is not a model of how to do the low end, actually, it's the opposite of quick and cheap. It would require somebody to do high volume ASIC version to be cheap (or future cheap magnetic FPGA etc). By doing things themselves, like Red could afford to do (eventually cheaply) they just delayed everything. For what they are doing their development costs should be cheap, but still many more times, and more times the cost, of using an existing cheap system, and setting it up for raw. Now, they are running out of time. There are established players with volume in the FPGA camera market in 4k, and soon cheap ASIC 4k cameras. They could go 8k, but there will be volume FPGA and ASIC 8k. While they could lead to lowest priced 4k and 8k FPGA camera, there 4k and 8k ASIC cameras can beat that. So where do they take the system, what niche can it fit into? Digital Bolex had a nitch but got negatives in the cameras. Now, 8k is an upper practical limit to volume sales as a general camera and holographic cameras are another ball game which might work on lower resolutions like 8k (practically wide SD resolution holographic image) but have serious performance needs at fhd and more delivery resolutions. Multipoint 3D can start at 2x2k/4k/8k upto around 9+ cameras. Speciality VFX and advertising (big wall images require a lot of resolution for people close up) are another area. But this is far away from their objectives. So, getting a manufacturer to do an ASIC for a prosumer/professional still market camera that can do professional/prosumer video and cinema filming would give them wife market advantages. But as, I think, they have open sourced the design, manufacturers don't need them. If they can't make money to guide and promote the design, or control it, then.. I would like to know what the case is with this, how they have setup things up to accommodate these things. But somebody like cinemartin could be a good fit.

Seen many things about this side of the industry. People that make a lot of noise in a teacup are often complaining that others are the source of noise when those others are reasoning.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 22, 2018 4:13 am

Why would it be a good thing if we would get the best posible camera at very low cost?
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8k Camcorder under development at NHK Broadcaster Japan.

PostTue May 22, 2018 4:21 am

Anyway, saw something a bit interesting, the 8k Camcorder under development by NHK, who has been broadcasting 8k daily since about 2016.

http://m.boannews.com/html/detail.html?idx=68646

The issue is, that ambarella already has 8k level chips for a few years (latest one is first official). NHK, has already pegged the datarate at exactly what I expected ambarella to move to, 600mb/s h264. Personally I prefer 1200mb/s (the 4k E2 by zcam does around 1700mb/s).

The most interesting thing is that the article says the 8k market is kicking off in December. Years ago I advocated that TV manufacturers should give away a cheap ambarella based camera with each new TV resolution, so people could do their own home content with it at full resolution. So, a $200 retail camera packed into (likely $50+ cost to the TV manufacturer) a $4k-$8k TV without native resolution content, gives a customer something to do with it now.

Now 8k phones. When they are about to do 4kp120, or 120mb/s h264 equivalent video, 8k might come. So, it should be possible to do now going on what ambarella could do. It's basically equivalent to 2x 4kp60 cameras (sound familiar). 300mb/s is probably at the top end of what they would put inside ohobr, but means that 600mb/s maybe possible within a few years with the best existing technologies. That's about as good as 36mb/s h264 Bluray quality (should look a bit better, due to likely increased efficiencies at the resolution). That's 300mb/s h265, or maybe 150mb/s h266 in two years, or maybe 50mb/s redray (but I don't know, has anybody ever seen tests if this codec to prove people's claims?).

Just realised, even a 32k camera is useful to consumers, in order to grab images quickly and zoom in post. So, there is market development for years to come.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 22, 2018 4:22 am

Kim Janson wrote:Why would it be a good thing if we would get the best posible camera at very low cost?

Me Kim?
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 22, 2018 4:30 am

Wayne Steven wrote:
Kim Janson wrote:Why would it be a good thing if we would get the best posible camera at very low cost?

Me Kim?


Anyone.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 22, 2018 8:51 am

"power to people". To democratically do the best (hopefully) they can with it. Seriously, just more options. Like I would prefer to take around with me a pro video phone as well as have a provides shelf and a pro video full camera. A, B, and C grade. The phone is the most versatile for low level and informal filming, and can be on hand most of the time. There are even phone setups emulate the look of different lenses, which you could use as a director's viewfinder and scout locations and scene angles (frankly I don't see that emulating lenses so well without a properly spaced four camera 3d system on board). Just some advantages. But in website and reporter like situations such a phone comes in handy. iPhone has been used as a production camera before (with pro kit) but I prefer a higher grade camera setup on the phone. It hasn't escaped my attention that the sensor in the things are shrinking. To emulate a lens sufficiently I would look at more than 4 cameras. iPhone is supposed to be doing three next year now. Nokia showed off some zany stuff, and the latest top of the line snap dragon has support for several cameras.

We live in hope that something will come from somewhere.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 22, 2018 10:10 am

The phones are a good exable what happens...

10 years ago we had a huge variety of different phones, then came the smartphones and all the sudden that was all there is, flat phones with enourmous screens, and very good ones are available well under 300 euros.

I have a smart phone and admid I do not much use DSLR camera any more, before I was taking like 10 000 images per year...

Phones as cameras, they are not really good and I do not think they never will be, but they are good enough for most of us for most of uses and makes us too laysy to carry a DSLR even when it would be nice to have....

Phones today for me are just boring dull. I much rather use a laptop and I hope the phone would not make me too laysy to carry a DSLR with me when traveling, but it does, sometimes this applies even for video...

There is times when I am thinking getting rid of the iPhone, I do not like what it has done to me. I just hope there would be alternatives, the old traditional phones with keyboard, and small screen for chekking email...
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 22, 2018 1:01 pm

D’oh, the Blackberry!


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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 22, 2018 1:13 pm

Even the Blackberry looks big and I have not seen that in Finland. 10 years ago I had the Nokia E61, something like that brought up to date would be very welcome. I would be happy even to iPhone 4 form factor, Small and easy to hold phone, with a small enough sreen that you do not really want to even try to use Internet on it.

55b.jpg
55b.jpg (22.02 KiB) Viewed 1769 times


But this wish of high quality small phone is getting quite far of the 8k camera :D Just saying I love tools build for a purpose.

rick.lang wrote:D’oh, the Blackberry!


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Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 22, 2018 2:16 pm

Since this thread has long ago abandoned relevancy to BMD’s perceived need for an 8K sensor, the primary functional design purpose of a smartphone has only recently become clear and that is unquestionably to addict you to it. Whether or not that addiction leads the manufacturers to great wealth is irrelevant to the use case: you never knew that you couldn’t live without it (without suffering severe withdrawal symptoms) until it was too late to say “No.”. It’s way beyond a convenience device. It’s your memory, your sense of touch, your hearing, your speaking, your fascination, your object of desire (well you may think you had a choice, but it chose you).

Now I’m willing to return to the topic of this thread.


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Last edited by rick.lang on Tue May 22, 2018 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kim Janson

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 22, 2018 4:58 pm

Yes, it is very sad to see this every day.

Screen Shot 2018-05-22 at 19.54.58.png
Screen Shot 2018-05-22 at 19.54.58.png (282.4 KiB) Viewed 1733 times


They are too young, beyond help, they do not even see anything strange on this image...

I am old enough to regognice I have a problem, but not sure if it helps anything...
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 22, 2018 8:45 pm

You mean one side looking like an old film camera and the other looking or a modern phone Kim? :). Why don't you do a website with a catchy name to show all the faults to look out for on phone images, so people can be more informed (and choosy).
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 22, 2018 9:03 pm

I could be wrong but I believe he was referring to them absorbed in there phones on not interacting with each other even though that are sitting right next to each other, not the photo quality of the smart phones.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 22, 2018 9:24 pm

Rick, competition is a big motivator in doing more. So, phones and other initial examples are examples of things to take on.

Kim, multiple lens camera systems (given the lack of larger format lens/mounts) are the only phones to look at for high quality. Unfortunately we only have initial 2 lens (and one three lens) computational photography systems out there. It's a matter of time. Red multi lens on one of their phone modules.

The less lens the less accuracy in emulating a pro lens system. Some have been 27 cameras, like the Adobe systems test bed I think, to 9 cameras.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 22, 2018 9:26 pm

David Hessel wrote:I could be wrong but I believe he was referring to them absorbed in there phones on not interacting with each other even though that are sitting right next to each other, not the photo quality of the smart phones.


And the many problems with that are? He would be presuming they are not texting each other about the camera man taking a picture of them texting. The image looks contrived anyway, they aren't that young. But people multitask, they clip from talking socialising to working socialising on their phones, and back and forwards. The issue is that they are a bit too absorbed. Not 10% of the time unless there is nothing to do, but even closer to 90% of the time they can. Sad. But nobody here would do anything like that on furums, would they? :)

One of my anti-favourite characters at the moment, is the young intern on that BBC mockumentary on Australian ABC. Doping around listening to music all the time, occasionally looking at phone etc, 9n the verge of stuffing up anything. Is he a Lord's son to keep the intership there? Sort of subconscious cringe worthy character.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 22, 2018 9:39 pm

Hmm, Ok, back on topic. Thank you Rick.

But yes, there are reasons for 8k, even for more than 8k in consumer and some Pro/Industrial/Scientific contexts.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostWed May 23, 2018 2:36 am

Kim Janson wrote:There is times when I am thinking getting rid of the iPhone, I do not like what it has done to me. I just hope there would be alternatives, the old traditional phones with keyboard, and small screen for chekking email...


https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ligh ... 2-design#/

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostWed May 23, 2018 4:30 am

Sure, there is reasons for 8k and more, like 360 video and the ones you mention, but is there a reason for BMD to put their efforts to 8k at this time.

BMD has production and film cameras, I do not see either demanding 8k on any larger scale at this time. Maybe they will jump to something new like RED is doing*, something that would create a need for 8k, that could be interesting.

*referring to RED and Lucid unveil 8K 3D camera that produces 4V holographic video in real time, it though uses 4k sensors.
3D_Capture_World.jpeg
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Wayne Steven wrote:Hmm, Ok, back on topic. Thank you Rick.

But yes, there are reasons for 8k, even for more than 8k in consumer and some Pro/Industrial/Scientific contexts.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostWed May 23, 2018 6:28 pm

I don't want a 8K camera from BMD.
Not even a phone.

I just want a camera, 4K, 4.6K, 2.8K (anyone shot on Alexa Mini?), which is niggle-free.

No FPN, no rainbow flares, no magenta corners, no conking off of the connections, no broken side handle.

And a little bit of low light handling.

Enough.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostWed May 23, 2018 9:08 pm

Krishna, look no further than the BMPCC4K. The more I think about it, the better it looks on paper. Of course we are dying to see the new Colour 4 on the BMPCC4K in action.

You know this answers the question someone posted recently about why BMD announced the new camera before it was ready to ship: BMD is an acquired taste, like so many delicious things we enjoy. It takes awhile to grow on you, to mull it over, to appreciate its nuances, to savour it’s character. But once you’ve acquired the taste, everything else tastes like water.


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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 24, 2018 4:23 am

Rick, I had my tryst of destiny with BMPC4K. Acquired the taste. Loved the colours, but I couldn't live with the niggles. Shifted to other cameras. The BMPCC4K does look good, but I'd still stay away because of the mount and the sensor size.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 24, 2018 5:10 am

Krishna you may not have read another post from today. I’m thinking of SLR Magic T2.1 PL APO primes fitted with their EF adapter mounted on the SpeedBooster Cine XL (locking EF) or BMCC 0.64x focal reducer with rail mounting assembly to steady the MFT Mount on the Pocket 4K camera.

Now that will provide APS-H AOV or better (‘crop’ factor about 1.2x) at T1.34 on that unassuming and inexpensive Pocket 4K. Try munching on that granola for breakfast.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 24, 2018 6:55 am

The Speed boosters are great to fit EF lenses and many other type mounts to MFT, but it adds one more connection the can have unwanted free play. This is where 3D printing comes handy. This installation is very solid and no free play between the components.

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 24, 2018 6:30 pm

Cinemartin is just a suspect company rebranding cheaper chinese-made products under their own name. Did any one see the Skybeam digital cinema lenses at NAB?

They're pretty laughable because they're $60 lenses from Aliexpress with his "company" printed on them for $719. I'm confident of this because the optics in his demo footage looks identical and he clearly doesn't understand how lenses work.

youtube.com/watch?v=FMlz8Fd5q6M
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 24, 2018 11:39 pm

Savannah Miller wrote:Cinemartin is just a suspect company rebranding cheaper chinese-made products under their own name. Did any one see the Skybeam digital cinema lenses at NAB?

They're pretty laughable because they're $60 lenses from Aliexpress with his "company" printed on them for $719. I'm confident of this because the optics in his demo footage looks identical and he clearly doesn't understand how lenses work.

youtube.com/watch?v=FMlz8Fd5q6M


Savannah. What connection is skybesm to cinemartin? Do you have a link?

They stated they got the barrels from China and the optics were done in France. What proof do you have that the AliExpress lenses are not barrels from China.(even nock off copies, which is a thing) mounted with inferior optics). What reasons do you believe he doesn't know how lenses work? It's pretty evident from the, find the best engineer statement, the guy is an enthusiast that got it done for him, rather than an engineer.

The price he is charging is similar to Japanese glass sold on low volume in house production runs, but his in compact. It would be great if he could figure out how to do a fast 12x, or upto 20x, multifocal lens with full auto and full manual, features, for that price. But can his lens resolve 4k or 8k?
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 24, 2018 11:43 pm

Kim Janson wrote:Sure, there is reasons for 8k and more, like 360 video and the ones you mention, but is there a reason for BMD to put their efforts to 8k at this time.

BMD has production and film cameras, I do not see either demanding 8k on any larger scale at this time. Maybe they will jump to something new like RED is doing*, something that would create a need for 8k, that could be interesting.

*referring to RED and Lucid unveil 8K 3D camera that produces 4V holographic video in real time, it though uses 4k sensors.
3D_Capture_World.jpeg


Wayne Steven wrote:Hmm, Ok, back on topic. Thank you Rick.

But yes, there are reasons for 8k, even for more than 8k in consumer and some Pro/Industrial/Scientific contexts.


What an unwieldy looking monster. I thought that must have been some high end monster, but I've since read people claiming it is their prosumer 8k camera.
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