Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

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rick.lang

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Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 29, 2018 5:26 am

Ryan, you would likely find a lot of DoPs agreeing but it takes much more than an image to make a serious dent in market share in established production studios. Nothing wrong with BMD’s approach to aim a little lower than the top of the pyramid. They’re starting at the bottom and that’s appropriate. Every pyramid was built from the bottom up.


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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 29, 2018 5:40 am

Rick your absolutely correct. One of my favorite DPs I work with does alit of network TV. He and I both love the 4.6k and use it on our commercials and music videos but red has some things ergonomically that make it a work horse for network TV that he finds limiting. Though he has rented my 4.6k and had it in a couple shows before as specialty shots.

It's awesome to see JB making use of some many 4.6ks for big shows ( I know Tim would love to pick your brain on that JB).
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 29, 2018 6:09 am

I don’t think Blackmagic are that interested in selling cameras into Hollywood or marquee films. Look at Resolve. They took it from being a 500k package to 300 bucks and have improved it out of this world since V8.

It used to be only a select few would have access to being able to use that tool for colour correction and post. Now anyone can feasibly learn Resolve and have the same creative outcome as the high end of town.

They’ve always been about enabling users to not be restricted by modest budget or access to high end tools.

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Andrew Kolakowski

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 29, 2018 12:40 pm

BM is simply using different business model. They're definitely not a charity which "gives" everyone great tool. It's still all business driven.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 29, 2018 7:14 pm

Robert Niessner wrote:
That's funny because on the released DVDs they just cropped into all VFX scenes to maintain widescreen. The show itself was shot in widescreen but the live action was framed for 4:3 and originally aired in 4:3.
The animations were done in Lightwave on Amiga 4000s and as far as I know all the 3D data got lost after the VFX studio had closed.
I'd love to buy an HD version of the B5 series but I guess that will never happen.


Unfortunately not only vfx studio closed (foundation imaging) but also the founder (Ron Thornton) died some years ago. But also with higher situation like dreamwork on Shrek, when they release shrek 3 in 3d, they remaster also shrek 1 and 2 in 3d, but not with render of another eye, but with a fake 3d by conversion from 2d to 3d be cause they lost track of all scenes builded and composed. Same thing if you search a uhd of same film, which cannot exist be cause they cannot manage original scene, due compositing problem, software versions and more


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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 29, 2018 7:28 pm

John Brawley wrote:BM is simply using different business model. They're definitely not a charity which "gives" everyone great tool. It's still all business driven.



It isn't a binary choice and that's certainly not what John said.. A company can make a profit (by obvious neccesity) and have a strong philosophical approach to their business. BM is a good example of this and certainly deserve credit for it and how they've impacted the industry.

I own a strategic growth company and two of our clients are employee owned models that also give a percentage of all profits to community causes.

So even thought they're not a "charity" it's actually not "still all business driven".

Businesses can be very much like people when they're led by thoughtful people - that is they can make decisions that aren't only botttom line driven. That's pretty obvious in the way GP has led BM.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue May 29, 2018 7:30 pm

Resolution often is a lie, if you start from a sensor that are builded around Bayer pattern that give you a derived resolution from less pixel.
A bit of history?
Do you remember first Panasonic Fullhd cam which have 3 cmos offsetted of 960x540 but they claim fhd from “color shifting” tech?
Do you remember first Sony “cinealta” that not meet fhd resolution sensor?
Do you remember the experiment (at today worth quality, but I see at theater I was grabbed from narration and not see picture degraded) of Danny Boyle with dvcam on motion picture “28 day later”

But shooting people at that time waste less time on internet or pixel peeing and shoot more movie, more story.

Sorry for aggressive post, but today I can see too people to search number instead quality.

I do often vfx (i hate it but I often must be myself my crew, I learned quite good some vfx task that I cannot pay in the last twenty years) and more (real) resolution could be good for tracking, compositing, reframing, texture extraction to 3d mapping and more, but....
Many people grab Red camera, then shoot in 5:1 or 7:1 that waste most of sharpness of 8k... than if I shoot with my UMP raw 3:1 I have final more sharpness and real data for vfx.
Red more resolution yes
Red ever more dectails ... depend of compression, lenses and more factors.
Like everythings, a red 8k not mean better resolution if you setup correctly and shoot correctly. I was enought lucky to see some daily of TGoG2 shooter with red 8k, some shooting are amazing for sharpness and dectail other not... different compression but also different proposal, if they shoot against green, they can compress more than enviro shooting where they need more high freq dectails.



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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostWed May 30, 2018 12:30 am

Re-edit:. I mistakenly posted thinking the end of the last page was the last post.

is one thing we forgot to mention, the glass. A lot of glass would not be built for 8k resolution, a lot might be built for 2k resolution cameras. If it is good for old Alexa, it might be subpar for even 4k redone. Even in the video days, people had problems with which SD bayonet lens could deliver HD. Even if it can deliver sort of some sort new target resolution, it might not be a very good quality. My apologies for missing that. So, a comparison between Alexa and a certain 8k camera, is probably best done with the same best for 8k lens. But the light path from the lens can interfere at the sensor structures. Very complex getting ideal tests. So best to test wide open and at same mid aperture and low aperture, to see if it helps. Frequencies can still interplay, but at least you can test for interplay with angle if light versus other tradeoffs at wide apeture.

The ironic thing is, the larger format lens tend to be able to deliver resolution easier than small lens using conventional technology, like used in phones.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostWed May 30, 2018 1:01 am

Carlo. Much of what you say is true. But I hated 28 days. I was rather enthusiastic to see what the pixel shifted Canons fully rigged out with cinema lens could do. It looked very distractingly horrible, the action and the story too. You can take it I also hate the zombie theme, that just took too long to die.

Another issue with Red. They actually aimed to maximise delivered resolution (industry best) and offered OLPF for various image. So, I don't know if with 8k they maybe just stretching it a bit here, with even the OLPF maybe being an issue, or just bad tests. But we have contradictory reports, with people reporting positive, who should see, positively indicating possibly it does deliver higher resolution, and reporting negative, which in light of positive reports, might indicate testing issues. Something can be better always, if it has been shown to be better (preferably repeatedly) fepeiye hie many times testers failed to get a positive result. They get this problem.in science a lot, it only takes one concrete (hence why they use repeatability) positive result to prove something is true in some way, despite how many wrongways they did it that produced a negative result. Yet, we get people running around quoting failed tests as proof against something, when really it was the test itself which was wrong.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostWed May 30, 2018 6:10 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:BM is simply using different business model. They're definitely not a charity which "gives" everyone great tool. It's still all business driven.


Of course they're in business to sell items.

What I was trying impart is that they don't really care for the high profile shoots. You don't see them chasing celebrity "Holly wood" directors or productions. That's not their market anyway.

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostWed May 30, 2018 7:13 am

Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostWed May 30, 2018 1:05 pm

That’s why I always power down my ARRI Alexa after a shoot and never bring her into my bedroom!


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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostWed May 30, 2018 1:16 pm

Lol!
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostWed May 30, 2018 1:20 pm

Here's some cred talk over at Redshark news (not really a Red site, a good general site). One artical examines some footage shot on Reds as 12k and downsampled to 8k, on a cheap 4k monitor in 4k and HD.

https://www.redsharknews.com/production ... -distances

https://www.redsharknews.com/production ... ver-use-it

https://www.redsharknews.com/production ... nal?page=1
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostWed May 30, 2018 3:17 pm

Wayne, Im not saying that we didn't make any mistakes on our tests, but we have repeated the tests multiple times. I have owned RED cameras over the years and I have to say all of my experience with them have told me they really tend to be much softer than you expect with the amount of data you having to store. The detail levels out of the 4.6k are really in a nice spot.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostWed May 30, 2018 7:35 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:Carlo. Much of what you say is true. But I hated 28 days. I was rather enthusiastic to see what the pixel shifted Canons fully rigged out with cinema lens could do. It looked very distractingly horrible, the action and the story too. You can take it I also hate the zombie theme, that just took too long to die.

Another issue with Red. They actually aimed to maximise delivered resolution (industry best) and offered OLPF for various image. So, I don't know if with 8k they maybe just stretching it a bit here, with even the OLPF maybe being an issue, or just bad tests. But we have contradictory reports, with people reporting positive, who should see, positively indicating possibly it does deliver higher resolution, and reporting negative, which in light of positive reports, might indicate testing issues. Something can be better always, if it has been shown to be better (preferably repeatedly) fepeiye hie many times testers failed to get a positive result. They get this problem.in science a lot, it only takes one concrete (hence why they use repeatability) positive result to prove something is true in some way, despite how many wrongways they did it that produced a negative result. Yet, we get people running around quoting failed tests as proof against something, when really it was the test itself which was wrong.


Right, taste is taste, me too not like a lot zombie movie, I like horror in general, but that movie break some rules and I like it, at that time I wasn’t so tech to see less picture quality than other film and understand why.
It was an example of old application of up sampling. I know is not the best sample but they start from a pal size.

I think that if Red could sell a 8k camera with a red name it’s a 8k resolution, if me (simply Carlo one man band) grab it with right optics I’m not sure I can obtain the best of resolution, be cause probably I don’t know all necessary to allow camera to give me the best of it.
The worst is that I meet too many dop and dit that are in my same situation, but they can obtain the best from other cameras.
I not tell that there is a secret sauce recipe, but if a lots of people not obtain the best from it I think there is something of missing info or situation, from compression ratio softening (I know that there are some dop that use it like softening filter) or some combination parameters setup, or some kind of lenses.


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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostWed May 30, 2018 8:30 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:Another issue with Red. They actually aimed to maximise delivered resolution (industry best) and offered OLPF for various image. So, I don't know if with 8k they maybe just stretching it a bit here, with even the OLPF maybe being an issue, or just bad tests. But we have contradictory reports, with people reporting positive, who should see, positively indicating possibly it does deliver higher resolution, and reporting negative, which in light of positive reports, might indicate testing issues. Something can be better always, if it has been shown to be better (preferably repeatedly) fepeiye hie many times testers failed to get a positive result. They get this problem.in science a lot, it only takes one concrete (hence why they use repeatability) positive result to prove something is true in some way, despite how many wrongways they did it that produced a negative result. Yet, we get people running around quoting failed tests as proof against something, when really it was the test itself which was wrong.


:D

Have you ever considered to be politician ? This is at their level :)
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostWed May 30, 2018 10:44 pm

Ryan Hamblin wrote:Wayne, Im not saying that we didn't make any mistakes on our tests, but we have repeated the tests multiple times. I have owned RED cameras over the years and I have to say all of my experience with them have told me they really tend to be much softer than you expect with the amount of data you having to store. The detail levels out of the 4.6k are really in a nice spot.


Spot on Ryan.

Easy way to tell is to shoot a windowed version of the sensor. In lots of shooting RED I always found windowed settings like 2K on a RED camera always looks like 720. I assume this is because the OLPF is so aggressive that on windowed shots it just destroys the resolution.

That's the one upside of windowed on an Ursa Mini Pro not having an OLPF.

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostWed May 30, 2018 11:14 pm

I agree JB. I don't ever shoot windowed, but I have tested it. I agree with you on all counts about RED. Thats not to say it doesn't have its place. I am sure it does, it just doesn't tick any of the boxes for me or my company.

Side note... I may have asked this already... but you gonna be at cine gear?
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostWed May 30, 2018 11:15 pm

Ryan Hamblin wrote:but you gonna be at cine gear?


Hope to be.

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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 31, 2018 4:22 am

Ryan Hamblin wrote:Wayne, Im not saying that we didn't make any mistakes on our tests, but we have repeated the tests multiple times. I have owned RED cameras over the years and I have to say all of my experience with them have told me they really tend to be much softer than you expect with the amount of data you having to store. The detail levels out of the 4.6k are really in a nice spot.


Ryan, so you did the Arri Red tests we are talking about? I like to determine what we are talking about here. By softness, are you talking about the effects of the OLPF, and not any compression degradation? If it is the OLPF, it's really a bit unfair. As Red sold their conventional image resolution as best for a cinema camera (given a OLPF I imagine). As BM wasn't around when they started on the industry leading resolution delivery. A cinema camera at the top end virtually implies a lack of alsising. And I agree with John, that the top end is not their market. However, they still want production cameras, which I expect the Ursa original was an, and 8k just has many uses. OLPF. dilutes contrast and breadth of detail (one reason I dislike Bayer, is the relative breadth of the OLPF effect needed compared to a refined three chip) which compromises on fast lenses due to incidence angle issues, which were an issue back from the day of little low light performance, but not so now) (buy a vistavision and use a F1.8+ lens maybe). But the OLPF also preserved real detail data that gets lost in a system without one and a iless than 100% fill factor (which as I wrote before, Arri might have close to, requiring a smaller OLPF effect. But I'm only saying maybe, we don't know, but I think maybe their supply might have absorbed fillfactory.
But forget Arri, let s talk BM in this respect). Now, BM 4.6k naturally has more resolution, but less fill, so it's an Apple oranges comparison until you compare wleith both without OLPF, or both with. It illustrate the example, the BM, should have more contrssty detail which appears sharper, but when you move the camera or object, it actually has less in its native resolutionby the amount of fillfactory it lacks. You use oversampling to hide this, but the individual colours in Bayer are still prone to picking up something (please BM sell a flip in minimal OLPF, by flipping a switch if possible) the other method is to calculate out done of the effects. I've seen stuff I think was done by a OLPF less camera (most likely BM) on news and TV drama production and it's a shocker on moving shots. However, it is these sorts of productions that could enjoy a switch on OLPF.

But with 8k on a OLPF less system, you should dramatically reduce issues in an 4k delivery. Now you have detail changes under the delivery pixel spread across the area more. But I still would want a minor OLPF, but a bit more oversampling would naturaly share sensor pixels across delivery pixels, reducing issues.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 31, 2018 4:50 am

Andrew Kolakowski wrote:
Wayne Steven wrote:Another issue with Red. They actually aimed to maximise delivered resolution (industry best) and offered OLPF for various image. So, I don't know if with 8k they maybe just stretching it a bit here, with even the OLPF maybe being an issue, or just bad tests. But we have contradictory reports, with people reporting positive, who should see, positively indicating possibly it does deliver higher resolution, and reporting negative, which in light of positive reports, might indicate testing issues. Something can be better always, if it has been shown to be better (preferably repeatedly) fepeiye hie many times testers failed to get a positive result. They get this problem.in science a lot, it only takes one concrete (hence why they use repeatability) positive result to prove something is true in some way, despite how many wrongways they did it that produced a negative result. Yet, we get people running around quoting failed tests as proof against something, when really it was the test itself which was wrong.


:D

Have you ever considered to be politician ? This is at their level :)


Much too serious of a matter being a politician and doing a good job. Been asked, but I think you need great vigor, stamina, morality and intellect, but unfortunately I've only got two of those, but most politicians around may have two or less of those. But what I said is the problem before, is also what modern politics is doing, stuffing it all up. I get mad seeing mythbusters, science and politics these days. Mythbusters is does some tests, when in reality, every single way it could work needs to be tested to prove something can not work anyway. Science tests more carefully, but again it is very limited and different ways of testing are left to different tests and testers (not drastically narrowing down things enough) and politics just dodgies up things in the interested of power, bias, and incompetency etc. But to run for politics, it's these people you have to wade through, and one party I could join, requires your automatic mandatory support for bad things. Only one major party has a reasonable internal politic, but they lack a little in areas. Believe me, myself and politicians have differing views. But the situation I quote above is a reliable enough view of the complexities of testing and verifying evidence. It is a known issue in science, that you sometimes hear about.
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 31, 2018 4:59 am

I'm hoping for some new camera releases at expos from June onwards.

If only the Fran 8k camera was in a Pocket 4k like package, I'd be inclined to buy it. As is, dealing with uncompressed 8k is not my thing (not that that in itself will stop me from buying a camera). I'm seeing a real usefulness for 8k now.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu May 31, 2018 5:15 am

Carlos. I nearly forgot you mate.

As I've expressed in other words before, 4k delivery is adequate for film delivery, 8k delivery is fine for top end. What you said is true, it takes the skill to render 8k to sensor (focus, but focus assist is needed on fine focus). But your 8k is likely going help delivery better 4k, and the other uses. So, not a total waste of time, just a step up. For sales purposes, 8k offers an opportunity for camera makers. But as low light and dynamic range technology performance is up, I'm thinking I should actually get an 8k just to take advantage of the better 4k quality and other features and uses. I was going leave off buying 8k for a long while (actually around now, but 8k has been kept out of the market artificially for sometime). The frame extraction should be rather useful, especially made to my spec.

I much prefer a vertically colour filtered sensor, like foveon x3 in 4k. I'm tempted at times to do such a camera with at least 720p chip. Just a playful little thing (he says secretly realising it seriously can nock FHD cinema cameras on the head. Innocence mode back on) you could put in your pocket, take on pinics, use to take time lasped pictures of flowers, sell to students. But there has been a lack of chips for it.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostFri Jun 01, 2018 2:08 am

Wayne Steven wrote:
Andrew Kolakowski wrote:
Wayne Steven wrote:Another issue with Red. They actually aimed to maximise delivered resolution (industry best) and offered OLPF for various image. So, I don't know if with 8k they maybe just stretching it a bit here, with even the OLPF maybe being an issue, or just bad tests. But we have contradictory reports, with people reporting positive, who should see, positively indicating possibly it does deliver higher resolution, and reporting negative, which in light of positive reports, might indicate testing issues. Something can be better always, if it has been shown to be better (preferably repeatedly) fepeiye hie many times testers failed to get a positive result. They get this problem.in science a lot, it only takes one concrete (hence why they use repeatability) positive result to prove something is true in some way, despite how many wrongways they did it that produced a negative result. Yet, we get people running around quoting failed tests as proof against something, when really it was the test itself which was wrong.


:D

Have you ever considered to be politician ? This is at their level :)


Much too seriouse of a matter being a politician and doing a good job. Been asked, but I think you need great vigor, stamina, morality and intellect, but unfortunately I've only got two of those, but most politicians around may have two or less of those. But what I said is the problem before, is also what modern politics is doing, stuffing it all up. I get mad seeing mythbusters, science it politics these days. Mythbusters is doing done tests, when.in reality every single way it could work needs to be treated to prove something can not work anyway, science tests more carefully, but again it is very limited and different ways are left to different tests and testers (not drastically narrowing down enough) and politics just dodgys up things in the interested of power, biase, and incompetency etc. But to run fir politics, it's these people you have to wade through, and one party I could join, requires your automatic manatory support for bad things. Only one major party has a reasonable internal politic, but they are lack a little in areas. Believe me, me and politicians have differing views. But the situation I quote above is a reliable enough view of the complexcities of testing and verifying evidence. It is a known issue in science, that you sometimes hear about.


Wayne,
Incomprehensible, which why I’m almost convinced you’re someone’s bot experiment!

Cheers anyways!
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostFri Jun 01, 2018 2:12 am

Interesting idea Steve... :roll:
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostFri Jun 01, 2018 12:52 pm

OK, I've corrected the typos and spelling mistasjes that may be confusing you guys. Seriously, a little number of typos and spelling mistakes should not stop a rational person from getting what the meaning is, or make one's rationality fall apart. Honestly, do you think a bot would make spelling mistakes and typos like that? No, its my keyboard. Just typing this it started typing out some interesting sentence about washing. I've just opened an article tonight about the keyboard as being broken for months. I've been messaging Google that this thing has been broken for at least a year. I've noticed it plays up most in forums, must be some sort of tracking passing typing through and stuffing up. Takes ages to type, and correct the typos, so you type really slowly to try to avoid "issues" but it still happens. Believe me my responses take up a lot, lot more time than you think
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostFri Jun 01, 2018 1:15 pm

I'm seriously thinking of buying the Fran, maybe hooking it up to something like video assist (but that records HDMI) maybe, and a 4kp60/50 phone. The Fran would be useful for more special projects and stills, and the phone for other things. So, really need to see some finale configured footage from the Pocket 4k. I've seen footage from the Fran 8k proto. But it could be as much as the next big BM camera, which would be a good deal rather than add to the Fran a couple of times before I get a compressed 8k recording solution, and an upgrade to an 8kp50/60+ camera. I'll have to wait to see how the numbers and performance between the cameras turn out before deciding.

I suspect John has seen Grant and an 8k camera is somewhere in the works for coming years, as he seems to have gone quiet on it.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostFri Jun 01, 2018 6:42 pm

Wayne Steven wrote:I suspect John has seen Grant and an 8k camera is somewhere in the works for coming years, as he seems to have gone quiet on it.


You mush have a short memory.

"Wayne

you don't really contribute anything that I find reasonable and rational to conversations.

I'm adding you to my ignore list and I'm sorry to do so.

I know you've been around a while, and you operate under several aliases (Mr Morelinni On Reduser)

You continue to make claims that defy logic and practical usefulness and rationality. I'm all for theoretical discussions but Wayne you're just not actually worth arguing with. I used to want to engage for those other readers who may be influenced by your posts. Now you're just annoying, So I take myself out of the conversation.

JB"
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostSat Jun 02, 2018 2:06 pm

That guy again that John keeps mentioning?

Now, David. Didn't you see John's other recent posts above, in the 8k camera thread about nothing 8k camera?

I eagerly wait for the new logical camera releases coming up to the Panasonic organic sensor GH camera release. But I suspect the Pocket might be it, when they can sell me on it picture wise, in the absence of hearing anything new from the Fran. The buy gap between the pocket and the updated Fran is going be sometime. Hard to find something to be positive about yet. The Fran 8k idea is alluring but I'm interested in delivery, practicalities, performance and economics. Buy signals. I wish BM had announced other new cameras above the pocket at NAB. It would be great. I have been waiting to see if there will be new announcements at cinema shows, like this weekend.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostMon Jul 02, 2018 1:48 pm

Listen:

https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?s ... 1530524983

Pity oled is so far off, and the qd version. But pana has a technology close to it, but only used on grading display/s last year.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostWed Jul 04, 2018 1:24 pm

found this on EOSHD. https://www.ximea.com/en/products-news/ ... a-cmv50000

This is the cinemartin fran. Cinemartin is just another company rebranding chinese products with their own logo and selling it for more.

I was certain Cinemartin wasn't designing a camera from scratch and it turns out I was right.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostWed Jul 04, 2018 2:53 pm

It's figures don't line up with that camera.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostWed Jul 04, 2018 3:04 pm

I'm pretty certain they ate designing something. But as far as designing from scratch, most cameras are not. I'd much rather more competent people design something others compromise rather than design it all themselves at 10-100x+ the retail. I sense a lot of bagging going on out there for some reason. I am yet to fund out if it is justified, or just sore people who resent competition that wears sunglasses rather than makes them. People bagged what are now favorite brands in the past too. Anyway, let's wait a few weeks or at least next month, to see what the previews/reviews of the camera come out like.

I definitely won't like them using that sensor. As John said the multiple dynamic range pixel pattern, to give HDR is not the best, and I think it is 11 stop native. The HDR thing might be OK for 4k down sampled, or 2k, but I prefer my 8k snaps pristine.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostWed Jul 04, 2018 3:08 pm

People should realise that with the attachments for that camera you listed, you basically get a still camera like form factor, but with the ability to take heaps of raw 8k images without running out of battery. If they set it up right, it would be like an ultimate DSLR competitor.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostWed Jul 04, 2018 3:14 pm

Cheap manufacturers, including Skyworth, are readying 8k TV's to launch this year:

https://www.digitimes.com/news/a20180628PD203.html
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu Jul 05, 2018 2:22 am

New Sony a7s3 does 4kp60.

http://thenewcamera.com/confirmed-sony- ... -and-more/

I'm including this one because people often sight these sorts of chips being limited as being why 8k is not going be done in the past. Now that has been shown to be untrue, they go on price, and whatever little evidence limiting factor before they own it to be true and start attacking 16k or others (there's a reason I sound like a columnist).

If we skip back in time. Anybody remember the JVC HD1, my cheap backup phones perform like that today? Hardly any low light ability and pretty noisy. But the older 500 consumer SD model used a 1.3mp chip from memory.

Let's skip forwards, a few companies developed high speed low heat video technology, like Micron/Aptina. They at one stage dominated the camera phone sensor market. Latter Sony still cameras still had heat issues doing 1080p60. Sony signed a cross license agreement with Aptina and suddenly, like Aptina could, they could do lower energy higher resolution video too (and Red American sensors and Sony sensors seemed to have similar performances in ways). Toshiba did a 8k chip for a fullhd phone also. As posted before, the Toshiba technology has also been said to move to Sony (like MS did, Sony seems to buy up the place to get the dominant technology). Anyway, after the cross licensing within x years, Sony is also the dominant mobile sensor maker, and Aptina no longer is. Now Sony has 4kp120 sensor (equivalent to 8kp30/data rate).

So, if Sony has all this great low energy high speed sensor technology, including that in the cheap old Nokia 8k sensor chip, why not use it, or make it available to other cinema camera manufacturers years ago? Well, apart from marketing stratification and purchase redundancy (you pay more for better features, despite their true costs, and you pay to upgrade more general often as they release slowly new enhanced features that now don't cost to much to make, but can be sold at higher prices) there are a few technical reasons. Sony decided on aiming for native quality improvements. Bells and whistled, like true hdr circuits, can affect the overall native performance negatively. So, increased noise and reduced native dynamic range even. An old thing they did was to scan and sample the CMOS to high quality analogue to digital converters outside the pixel array. The ADC's would be better quality, and away from heat effects in the array and from introducing effects I guess in the circuits and adding more obstruction to the pixel (back in the days of front side illuminated sensors where circuited were either a chunk of missing pixel pad space and or other the pad itself. This means transferring charge across the chip inducing heat. Micron/Aptina had a better chip material for doing that, but that still goes do far. But now they use local ADC, and local processing across a back side illuminated chip. Performance of these new arrangements has greatly increased. At dome point the performance would be acceptable for more and more market segments. Eventually it may be within the 4.6k territory on an 8k camera. As long as you have low enough noise, a good quality HDR circuit could be accommodated, offsetting the smaller pixel pads.

Years ago I wanted to do HDR as a count of sampling, so evert time a pixel pad well gets full it resets and increases a counter, at the end of the integration period any remaining charge is sampled, but other versions of this I was considering was to continually sample. So, I looked at sampling smaller charge units continuously, ultimately per photon, though too many photons. So, just enough charge to flip the count circuit could be used. These days all these things I think, are actually out there. The point has been, how much error and noise is introduced by these circuits.

Now, a real issue I have been working on, is the relative size of the pixel to a photon bundle. As the pixel pad gets closer to the wavelength of light, the more it interferes with the photons clipping the boundaries introducing a form of irregularity/noise. As you know, photons can group in waves, the more similar photons together the higher your wave, like a laser. But also, these photons effect each other and slip and slide around each. As you concentrate light from a lens into a pixel, the density goes up. For those that can see in this near 8k detail realm, it looks pretty distorted crawly, maybe from this, but also out eyes color filter pattern makes thing uneven, but my eyes also have astigmatism also. So, very small pixels get more issue. However, as long as you can achieve 54db signal to noise ratio, you are averaging less than the lowest value of an 8 bit signal in noise, and if you have more than 12 stops at the same time, you have something worth shooting with professionally. So, it doesn't matter as much that they are small. Of course, we would like 102db+ snr for 16 bit, but we can keep dreaming, the previous figure should help with a reasonable image that you have to work on set more carefully with light control like the old days.

BTW: The 20-50nm pixel pads I mentioned before, I suspect probably map the light waves. I think they were counter based too and digital, either on or off (but I can't remember out of the sea of sensor technology out there). Even though it is digital cinema sensor technology, I imagine such things might be useful in internet of things applications, and micro drones.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu Jul 05, 2018 2:46 am

I have just come up with a new version of my pad size to wave size solution that offers near perfect color sampling pixel. My desired form of foveon x3 pixel was to have an depth array to separate out more frequencies to provide better shape to the response curve, but I've just come up with something better that is a combination of three of my innovations. An even better version has cropped up now. This is answering many issues to do with sampling. I'm just thinking of a new implementation method for it now. That's maybe around half a dozen different versions. I say this in reference to those with 0% practical contribution to design, and near the same for design discussion, who insist like they know it all and wish to interfere rather than contemplate. Design is the beginning of practicality, without it you are being more impractical. I hope I have now answered the insults adequately for viewers.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostFri Jul 06, 2018 12:57 am

I wonder if this explains Reds sudden move into phones and multipoint 3D shooting, as they have partnered with Foxconn, and announced the multipoint module.

https://spot.light.co/light-partners-with-foxconn/

There is a picture of a 9 camera prototype phone with medium format like spacing here. With how they do their figures, maybe they will do "8k" video. We are but told the manufacturer of the phone (heard somebody not red was doing something). But you see how BM could do something like this.

Image
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostFri Jul 06, 2018 1:59 am

Savannah Miller wrote:found this on EOSHD. https://www.ximea.com/en/products-news/ ... a-cmv50000

This is the cinemartin fran. Cinemartin is just another company rebranding chinese products with their own logo and selling it for more.

I was certain Cinemartin wasn't designing a camera from scratch and it turns out I was right.


So, you reckon this camera,
Image
Is this camera?
Image

I don't know!
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostFri Jul 06, 2018 2:13 am

This guy could have 10k+ sales in China if it was cheap enough and wasn't for, rumored, other 8k cameras. 8k panels are going to be pushed by Chinese TV manufacturers in Chiba first, but they need 8k content, and a still version (with some h265 video) would be a great complementary sales item for a manufacture to offer to top end buyers. I bought a fullhd TV when there was hardly any content out there, but you could still use a pocket fullhd camera with it for home videos. Plus, 8k is good to run computer stuff instead of 4 to 16 monitors. Just a side note.

So, another reason BM could do 8k. Hoping for 4kp50 micro cinema though.

BTW Panasonic is giving a mild discount on the GH5 series. So, I wonder if a new model could be possible with this 8k stuff this year? If so, it might be similar to the fran sensor.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostFri Jul 06, 2018 5:57 am

Wayne that's a 3D render of a hideously ugly camera.

Look at this teaser image instead:

https://www.newsshooter.com/2018/05/09/ ... 8k-camera/

My guess is they're going to rehouse the camera while keeping the same lens mount and sensor stack. I think they're building out of an existing camera and using that as a jumpstart to get started. Maybe they'll make a new fgpa to have the camera do what they need, but something about this camera is very suspicious. Every other product they sell is rebranded chinese products. Their cinemartin monitors are also sold under feelworld, andycine, etc.

Also:



The images look quite bad, but I'm hoping they can fix something between now and release.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostFri Jul 06, 2018 10:22 am

Using reference designs or other's parts in your design discussion is standard practice. Doesn't worry me, except when those reference designs are hobbled. Its just that we don't see it. A lot of pro h264 camera tech out there are ambarella tech hidden in custom chips.

There are pictures out there with real lit buttons I believe.

Now, I have to admit the whole 5000 sensor thing looks more credible if the figures were rounded here, as the highlights in the images look about 11 stops to me. If Sony, I would expect more than that, even Canon.

The images. Look, I thought similar about Red images for years. I have to re-examine if they are graded or not. If pre grade, its not too bad. However, the colour science might become better. Maybe the colour is the result of the spatial HDR scheme John mentioned.

Look forwards to seeing something .
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostSat Jul 07, 2018 6:08 am

My guess is he's trying to build something with a lower production budget and it's not going well. Apertus Axiom looks pretty bad as far as images go, and they're far from production ready. They need a new sensor other than the cmosis. The design of the axiom body does look very beautiful, and it's a shame because the camera does look really nice.

I would love to see blackmagic build a modular version of the pocket 4K in that form factor because it's quite nice.

Right now though it's completely pointless to have an 8K camera that produces images like the demo above. Those are horrendous images that are not useful for anything.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostSat Jul 07, 2018 10:00 pm

Lol. Like the original Red One images, or a lot of ungraded images (also meaning no color science) to be fair let's see what happens. I'm too old and experienced to think that is the end of the story.

I pretty much thought they were really on schedule. Took BM a while to go through those steps too. There was a big time span between BM looking at doing a camera and talking publicly about it. I know because I knew an engineer shopping his stuff around who wanted me on board. But cinemartin has merely let the public know before hand. I literally though, am not enthusiastic about the images, because it looks about 11 stop, that should not be the case for a sensor which is native 15 stops. Which might indicate the 50000 sensor, which might be what's happening in that Ferrari image.

Now, the Axiom, is not the design process I would recommend, in matter of fact neither is the initial process of Red or BM's applied to a camera today, when there are great asic solutions out there to use. FPGA was just a cheap and nasty way of doing things compared to your own asic, which people paid for out of pocket. Having said that, the axiom solution was going to process data rate in the 8k range a long time ago, and maybe high 8K, I forget. Now, how does that compare?

Now, the axiom system was designed to take multiple sensors. So, I think they might be able to pick a better sensor up. But, in reality, is there too much advantage compared a BM camera at that price? The thing about competition, is getting to a desirable place first. Price point and a fuller 4k solution is the desirable places left in the current market. Which means sub $1000 with proper ports and sensor, and wireless view and time code. So, there is a bit left to go in the market. Red is trying to scramble onto the next multipoint 3D island before the 4k production price point shrinks. Glasses free auto 3D screen technology is here, and auto 3D cinema is coming. People tried to over sell 3D in the past rather than just using it to enhance normal viewing for exactly the same ticket price as 2D. Except for things like Marvel, cinema was shrinking. It wasn't a matter of greedily trying to profit off of 3D with greatly increased prices, it was a matter of survival to build audience numbers with better screens then now and engraved viewing, which you can't get easily at home. As it is we have pokey little screens down the end of roofs of empty seats, greyed out blacks (seriously, I don't remember it being this bad before). Even Netflix might represent better viewing at home once the bigger screens kick in with surround. Something's gone desperately wrong. In the time they could have been gaining more, they haven't been as much. Here we had a marvelous vaudeville theater, converted into my favorite cinema as a kid, converted into a backpackers today. The cinema industry might become the imax of tomorrow, a rarer extravaganza, with most of the action happening in personal devices. So, like the vaudeville theater, come cinema, come something else, a number of screens may die. We are just having nearly 25% of screens closing locally this month here. The cow has been profit milked enough and is going start dieing unless new life in breathed in.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostSat Jul 07, 2018 10:37 pm

Just glancing that video, I see they adjust the colours in it. What's so wrong with the video Savannah!
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostTue Jul 17, 2018 8:02 am

Rather than making an 8K camera I would much rather that BMD takes the BMPCC4K sensor and puts it in an "URSA Micro Pro" body! (like an URSA Mini Pro, but smaller!)
http://IronFilm.co.nz/Sound/
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostThu Jul 19, 2018 4:31 am

I agree. I'm waiting to see if they do this. I no longer so eager on the Fran. It's going be big to use as a stills/video.
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostFri Jul 20, 2018 4:15 am

8k micro studio?
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Re: Reasons for a 8k BM cinema camera.

PostFri Jul 20, 2018 5:39 am

Not a question of “if” but “when.”


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