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- Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:09 pm
Hi there,
Has any of you done any ProRes vs. RAW comparisons with the new Pocket 4K? I usually shoot RAW, but in low light the ProRes looks much cleaner, which makes me wonder, wether I should put the effort in denoising at all...
Also interesting this comment I found from Cinema 5D, which implements the the ProRes flavour got updated in the Pocket 4K:
Actually, we got a lot better DR results on ProRes with this camera as opposed to RAW. We reached out to Blackmagic Design for an explanation and received a satisfying answer, and Gunther even had a few calls with them about this to explain.
QUESTION by Gunther to Blackmagic Design:
We have recently tested the BMPCC4K dynamic range using a Xyla DSC labs 21 transmissive chart, and we stumbled across a strange behaviour of the camera:
- we tested in ProRes 4K DCI 25p and got 11.6 stops for a signal to noise ratio of 2, and 12.7 stops for a signal to noise ratio of 1 at ISO 400 (10.5 and 11.8 stops for ISO3200)
- when we tested the same DCI 4K 25p RAW (1:1) we found that the dynamic range reading was lower (by about a half stop). Only when we selected the "highlight recovery" option in DaVinci Resolve and then exported frame grabs into IMATEST we got similar results to ProRes.
This is a bit strange, because we tested also the old Pocket Cinema Camera and it had the same dynamic range reading in ProRes and RAW - and when we enabled the "highlight recovery" option in Resolve, we actually got about 0.6 stops higher DR in RAW that with ProRes.
How come that the DR of the new Pocket 4K is lower in RAW, and only matched ProRes when "highlight recovery" is selected in Resolve? Is ProRes doing this HL recovery automatically?
ANSWER from Blackmagic Design, Andy Buckland:
The Pocket Cinema Camera 4K uses our new demosaic algorithm developed with Blackmagic RAW, before encoding to ProRes. This new algorithm helps to reduce noise and improve the dynamic range in ProRes capture. With Cinema DNG RAW, the demosaic is still performed in DaVinci Resolve. That enables full control and manipulation over debayer settings, noise reduction, and highlight recovery to increase the dynamic range measurement beyond that of ProRes.
By applying minimal temporal noise reduction to the Cinema DNG RAW files in DaVinci Resolve - the lower steps on the waveform can be cleaned up nicely, bringing the available dynamic range of RAW in line with those seen in your ProRes tests. Then by enabling highlight recovery, the available dynamic range in Cinema DNG RAW increases beyond that of ProRes.
ProRes users benefit from the new debayer algorithm in terms of dynamic range and reduced noise at capture, resulting in a faster turnaround.
RAW users benefit from the full control and manipulation of the image, to decide which parameters they would like to tweak and finesse.
What are your thoughts / results?
Cheers
Has any of you done any ProRes vs. RAW comparisons with the new Pocket 4K? I usually shoot RAW, but in low light the ProRes looks much cleaner, which makes me wonder, wether I should put the effort in denoising at all...
Also interesting this comment I found from Cinema 5D, which implements the the ProRes flavour got updated in the Pocket 4K:
Actually, we got a lot better DR results on ProRes with this camera as opposed to RAW. We reached out to Blackmagic Design for an explanation and received a satisfying answer, and Gunther even had a few calls with them about this to explain.
QUESTION by Gunther to Blackmagic Design:
We have recently tested the BMPCC4K dynamic range using a Xyla DSC labs 21 transmissive chart, and we stumbled across a strange behaviour of the camera:
- we tested in ProRes 4K DCI 25p and got 11.6 stops for a signal to noise ratio of 2, and 12.7 stops for a signal to noise ratio of 1 at ISO 400 (10.5 and 11.8 stops for ISO3200)
- when we tested the same DCI 4K 25p RAW (1:1) we found that the dynamic range reading was lower (by about a half stop). Only when we selected the "highlight recovery" option in DaVinci Resolve and then exported frame grabs into IMATEST we got similar results to ProRes.
This is a bit strange, because we tested also the old Pocket Cinema Camera and it had the same dynamic range reading in ProRes and RAW - and when we enabled the "highlight recovery" option in Resolve, we actually got about 0.6 stops higher DR in RAW that with ProRes.
How come that the DR of the new Pocket 4K is lower in RAW, and only matched ProRes when "highlight recovery" is selected in Resolve? Is ProRes doing this HL recovery automatically?
ANSWER from Blackmagic Design, Andy Buckland:
The Pocket Cinema Camera 4K uses our new demosaic algorithm developed with Blackmagic RAW, before encoding to ProRes. This new algorithm helps to reduce noise and improve the dynamic range in ProRes capture. With Cinema DNG RAW, the demosaic is still performed in DaVinci Resolve. That enables full control and manipulation over debayer settings, noise reduction, and highlight recovery to increase the dynamic range measurement beyond that of ProRes.
By applying minimal temporal noise reduction to the Cinema DNG RAW files in DaVinci Resolve - the lower steps on the waveform can be cleaned up nicely, bringing the available dynamic range of RAW in line with those seen in your ProRes tests. Then by enabling highlight recovery, the available dynamic range in Cinema DNG RAW increases beyond that of ProRes.
ProRes users benefit from the new debayer algorithm in terms of dynamic range and reduced noise at capture, resulting in a faster turnaround.
RAW users benefit from the full control and manipulation of the image, to decide which parameters they would like to tweak and finesse.
What are your thoughts / results?
Cheers
--
Windows 10 / i4930k @4.3Ghz / 32GB RAM / GTX 1080 / 12TB RAID 0 (4 x 3 TB) / Mini Monitor 4K / Eizo CG247x / Mainly working with CDNG 4:1
Windows 10 / i4930k @4.3Ghz / 32GB RAM / GTX 1080 / 12TB RAID 0 (4 x 3 TB) / Mini Monitor 4K / Eizo CG247x / Mainly working with CDNG 4:1