Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour issue

The place for questions about shooting with Blackmagic Cameras.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

sicovanderplas

  • Posts: 40
  • Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:57 pm

Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour issue

PostWed Nov 21, 2018 11:18 pm

Hi Guys,

I've with pleasure received my BMPC4K.
I've straight away grabbed some shots and started noticing problems.

It seems for some reason the colour of the screen vs reproduced colours as a bit off, that's reasonable given that this is a low segment camera. the worrying thing is the rendering of the color red. this obviously being a hard colour to reproduce for sensors in the past, for example FS700 had the same problem and other older 8bit camera's, but to see it in the pocket camera is something i wouldn't have expected, the color itself has fringes and seems to not be calibrated correctly given extreme contrasty annoying edges.
I have some samples, obviously the color is a bit overexposed, but shouldn't reproduce in this way, it just seems like the whole red channel causes fringes and strange colour casts around highlights.

wetransfer link to grabs:
https://we.tl/t-8ju7ISHAvw

Is this a problem regarding my unit, or is this a wider known problem?

Cheers,
Sico
Offline
User avatar

Robert Niessner

  • Posts: 2252
  • Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:51 am
  • Location: Graz, Austria

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostThu Nov 22, 2018 1:04 am

That is a result of clipping and colorscience version 4 and is pronounced in high ISO gain because there the camera has a reduced dynamic range. But I admit the camera should clip more gracefully here.
Robert Niessner
LAUFBILDkommission
Graz / Austria
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Blackmagic Camera Blog (German):
http://laufbildkommission.wordpress.com

Read the blog in English via Google Translate:
http://tinyurl.com/pjf6a3m
Online
User avatar

Dmitry Shijan

  • Posts: 569
  • Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:15 pm
  • Location: UA

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostThu Nov 22, 2018 9:22 am

If you search web for "Pocket 4K red clipping" you can see a lot of reports about this problem.

Looking to these and other samples provided by other users i guess that red clipping may be caused by not too large enough color gamut used in Color Science v4. Original BMDfilm LOG files are low saturated, if you compare saturation level it appears that BMDflm gamut is even larger than Rec2020. BMDfilm is a native sensor color gamut.
P4K unprocessed LOG samples looks way more saturated, it feels like closer to DCI P3 gamut, or variations of early REDcolor/DRAGONcolor versions slightly larger than sRGB. Extreme saturated light emitted objects like neon lights, lasers, electric sparks, single color LEDs require VERY wide gamut to be captured fully without clipping. My guess that with Color Science v4 BMD decide to unify gamuts between different cameras (as many manufacturers do) and add a in-camera conversion from native sensor gamut to some kind of optimized Color Science v4 gamut. Smaller gamut may produce less global color shifts, it is easer to compress to Rec709 and probably allow more precise sensor color calibration. P4K footage with Color Science v4 looks really well calibrated compare to older cameras. But as side effect it may produce strange color clipping. Hope BM will be able to fix it somewhere in future updates.

There is a fix for this:
- Add Color Space Transform node in Resolve.
- Set in and out to same Gamma/Gamut
- Turn ON Saturation Mapping
- Adjust Saturation clipping settings.
All my custom made accessories for BMMCC/BMMSC now available here https://lavky.com/radioproektor/
Offline

sicovanderplas

  • Posts: 40
  • Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:57 pm

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostThu Nov 22, 2018 10:30 am

Thanks for the tips.

Red is in fact shifted towards more Purple/Redish colour, is not red anymore after recording.
i remember this problem in early c300 models, they also had fringing in the highlights of certain lights such as Fluorecent lights and other units.

I'll make an official ticket, because most likely this will be fixable in a firmware upgrade with a more narrow calibration, most likely all bright LED and neon like colours will be flagged with this issue, like you posted earlier.

for the price it's neglectable, but would be epic if fixed.
Online
User avatar

Dmitry Shijan

  • Posts: 569
  • Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:15 pm
  • Location: UA

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostThu Nov 22, 2018 11:07 am

All my custom made accessories for BMMCC/BMMSC now available here https://lavky.com/radioproektor/
Offline

Steven Abrams

  • Posts: 260
  • Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2015 12:43 am
  • Location: LA La Land

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostFri Nov 23, 2018 6:47 am

Dmitry Shijan wrote:P4K unprocessed LOG samples looks way more saturated, it feels like closer to DCI P3 gamut, or variations of early REDcolor/DRAGONcolor versions slightly larger than sRGB.

Use the cst plugin in resolve and transform from broadcast color v4 (which is said to be for pocket 4K as well) into arri wide gamut and you'll see they're almost exactly the same. So I think the gamut is almost exactly the arri gamut, but the pocket 4K doesn't have anywhere near the arri dynamic range and clips faster. Especially in those low light scenes of cars at night where people are using the higher analog gain setting that has even less dynamic range.
Offline

deezid

  • Posts: 189
  • Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:38 am
  • Real Name: Dennis Schmitz

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostWed Nov 28, 2018 3:28 pm

It's similar but reds drift towards magenta and don't seem to have any rolloff at all.
I don't think it's supposed to be like that. Other cameras with the same sensor (and same horizontal noise pattern) don't show this issue.
Offline

Janis Lionel

  • Posts: 205
  • Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:09 pm

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostThu Nov 29, 2018 11:17 am

Interesting.

Is this just a ProRes / high ISO Problem or also present in ProRes/low Iso or RAW?

Cheers
--
Windows 10 / i4930k @4.3Ghz / 32GB RAM / GTX 1080 / 12TB RAID 0 (4 x 3 TB) / Mini Monitor 4K / Eizo CG247x / Mainly working with CDNG 4:1
Offline

Oyvind Fiksdal

  • Posts: 165
  • Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:12 pm

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostThu Jan 10, 2019 10:42 pm

Stumbled upon this.

Seem like a youtuber by the name of “studio sumizoon” have come up with a color compensation filter as a solution. The idea is to use a Hoya filter by the name of CD5000.

This filter is normally used for ccd cameras enhancing the colour distribution in the visible spectrum while eliminating any UV and near IR transmission. More or less like a UV/IR cut filter it may seem, but this one does not cut as fast in the low end of the wavelength spectrum and seem to fall down in a nice curve compare to a normal IR cut filter. Im guessing that’s what causing the nice charger light rolloff that we can see in the video they put out. Take a look about 09:00 – 09:50 into the clip.

What you also see is that it fixes the problem with the 1000-1250 iso switch occurring with no IR cut filter. So I guess this one can replace a normal IR cut filter.

Normal IR cut filter:
img_deposition_filter_4.jpg
img_deposition_filter_4.jpg (16.89 KiB) Viewed 4149 times


CD5000 color compensation filter (IR-CUT):
img_graph_7.png
img_graph_7.png (55.67 KiB) Viewed 4149 times



Here is more information about the filter.. one problem is that it doesn’t exist like a screw on filter as I can tell. http://www.hoyacandeo.co.jp/english/products/eo/color/07.html

If anyone have some experience with it, than I’m all ears.
Offline

sicovanderplas

  • Posts: 40
  • Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:57 pm

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostSun Feb 24, 2019 8:29 pm

Interesting, i have a IR cut ND but not using that in darker area’s obviously. I shoot alot of artists and films with bright red’s and more neon-like colours. But the performance of the colourscience in the pocket is horrible.

Yesterday rented a pocket again, for a concert, all bright LED spectrum colors are not performing well, this is not isolated towards red only.

blue, yellow, red, green, purple all these colors are unacceptable for professional use, blue channel and red on high iso are most horrible and bleeding and fringing the hardest, i would recommend blackmagic to
make an adapted color science for the pocket or a re-calibration of the sensor, because this is beyond on what blackmagic stands for, the old pocket performed much better in these colors.

I will post screengrabs later tommorow.
Offline
User avatar

Jamie LeJeune

  • Posts: 1030
  • Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:33 am
  • Location: San Francisco

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostSun Feb 24, 2019 9:41 pm

AFAIK the issue where highly saturated red sources were clipping has been fixed in the most recent 4K camera firmware

For files recorded before that, I posted a fix on the forum that includes the steps in Resolve, or for other apps, I also included a link to download two different LUTs that will fix it:

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=80851&hilit=+red#p447980
www.cinedocs.com
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm4601572/
Offline
User avatar

Australian Image

  • Posts: 1689
  • Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:08 am
  • Real Name: Ray Pollanen

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostSun Feb 24, 2019 9:46 pm

I'm now very disappointed. From being a camera lauded for it's colour, reproduction, it's now the worst for across the entire colour spectrum. I'm not sure how I missed this.
https://australianimage.com.au/
Offline

Wayne Steven

  • Posts: 1832
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:58 am
  • Location: Earth
  • Warnings: 1

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostSun Feb 24, 2019 11:11 pm

sicovanderplas wrote:Hi Guys,

I've with pleasure received my BMPC4K.
I've straight away grabbed some shots and started noticing problems.

It seems for some reason the colour of the screen vs reproduced colours as a bit off, that's reasonable given that this is a low segment camera. the worrying thing is the rendering of the color red. this obviously being a hard colour to reproduce for sensors in the past, for example FS700 had the same problem and other older 8bit camera's, but to see it in the pocket camera is something i wouldn't have expected, the color itself has fringes and seems to not be calibrated correctly given extreme contrasty annoying edges.
I have some samples, obviously the color is a bit overexposed, but shouldn't reproduce in this way, it just seems like the whole red channel causes fringes and strange colour casts around highlights.

wetransfer link to grabs:
https://we.tl/t-8ju7ISHAvw

Is this a problem regarding my unit, or is this a wider known problem?

Cheers,
Sico


They could give a balanced screen at that price.

Normal consumer orientated companies are not worth comparing to, as those can lower design just to get you to buy a higher priced model to get away from more and more issues.

On BM I understand there is sharpening being applied in the color science. Plus whatever other people are saying.
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.
Offline

Uli Plank

  • Posts: 4615
  • Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:48 am

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostMon Feb 25, 2019 1:30 am

Get a Red Scarlet and you can have the same for a higher price ;-)
Resolve Studio and Fusion Studio
iMac 2017 Radeon Pro 580 8 GB VRAM and 32 GB RAM
Offline

Wayne Steven

  • Posts: 1832
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:58 am
  • Location: Earth
  • Warnings: 1

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostMon Feb 25, 2019 1:54 am

And that proves? Red wants people to buy $20k+ cameras.
Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.
Offline

sicovanderplas

  • Posts: 40
  • Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:57 pm

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostMon Feb 25, 2019 7:47 am

Uli Plank wrote:Get a Red Scarlet and you can have the same for a higher price ;-)

The scarlet performs better then the pocket across the whole board. But the point is that they should check the roll-off, it’s not only red, it’s any neon like color, basicly any stage light i’ve seen so far. At this point i cannot use the pocket professionally and the point was that you can.
Offline
User avatar

Australian Image

  • Posts: 1689
  • Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:08 am
  • Real Name: Ray Pollanen

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostMon Feb 25, 2019 8:04 am

sicovanderplas wrote:
Uli Plank wrote:Get a Red Scarlet and you can have the same for a higher price ;-)

The scarlet performs better then the pocket across the whole board. But the point is that they should check the roll-off, it’s not only red, it’s any neon like color, basicly any stage light i’ve seen so far. At this point i cannot use the pocket professionally and the point was that you can.


As is often said: 'When life gives you lemons, make lemonade.'
https://australianimage.com.au/
Offline

deezid

  • Posts: 189
  • Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:38 am
  • Real Name: Dennis Schmitz

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostMon Feb 25, 2019 10:35 am

sicovanderplas wrote:
Uli Plank wrote:Get a Red Scarlet and you can have the same for a higher price ;-)

The scarlet performs better then the pocket across the whole board. But the point is that they should check the roll-off, it’s not only red, it’s any neon like color, basicly any stage light i’ve seen so far. At this point i cannot use the pocket professionally and the point was that you can.


It even applies to the Ursa Mini Pro when shooting using CS4 or BRAW.
Well I really hope they can fix these issues soon.
Offline
User avatar

joe12south

  • Posts: 397
  • Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:14 pm
  • Location: Nashville, TN
  • Real Name: Joseph Moore

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostMon Feb 25, 2019 3:14 pm

Learn to Google. Seriously, folks.

This is an issue with interpretation, not the camera itself. You can map the colors as needed/preferred in Resolve. In fact, as easy as one plug-in. (Google too hard? Search YouTube. Some kind soul made a tutorial. Hardly more than one click.)

Do I wish that the camera and Resolve's presets behaved better, yes. Should you be putting weirdo filters in front of your camera to correct some non-existent camera problem? No.
Pocketluts: Purpose-built LUT system for the Black Magic Design Pocket Cinema Camera 4K
http://www.pocketluts.com/
Offline
User avatar

joe12south

  • Posts: 397
  • Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:14 pm
  • Location: Nashville, TN
  • Real Name: Joseph Moore

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostMon Feb 25, 2019 3:16 pm

sicovanderplas wrote:Interesting, i have a IR cut ND but not using that in darker area’s obviously. I shoot alot of artists and films with bright red’s and more neon-like colours. But the performance of the colourscience in the pocket is horrible.

Yesterday rented a pocket again, for a concert, all bright LED spectrum colors are not performing well, this is not isolated towards red only.

blue, yellow, red, green, purple all these colors are unacceptable for professional use, blue channel and red on high iso are most horrible and bleeding and fringing the hardest, i would recommend blackmagic to
make an adapted color science for the pocket or a re-calibration of the sensor, because this is beyond on what blackmagic stands for, the old pocket performed much better in these colors.

I will post screengrabs later tommorow.


Just map the out of range colors into the gamut your working timeline gamut. There's a plugin built-into Resolve. It's hardly more than a click.
Pocketluts: Purpose-built LUT system for the Black Magic Design Pocket Cinema Camera 4K
http://www.pocketluts.com/
Offline
User avatar

joe12south

  • Posts: 397
  • Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:14 pm
  • Location: Nashville, TN
  • Real Name: Joseph Moore

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostMon Feb 25, 2019 3:22 pm

Jamie LeJeune wrote:AFAIK the issue where highly saturated red sources were clipping has been fixed in the most recent 4K camera firmware

I haven't heard this mentioned elsewhere. What exactly changed?

I haven't noticed any change in color when shooting, but then again I've never actually had an issue in any real shooting scenarios, only when I forced it for testing.
Pocketluts: Purpose-built LUT system for the Black Magic Design Pocket Cinema Camera 4K
http://www.pocketluts.com/
Offline

Oyvind Fiksdal

  • Posts: 165
  • Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:12 pm

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostTue Feb 26, 2019 12:26 am

joe12south wrote:Learn to Google. Seriously, folks.

This is an issue with interpretation, not the camera itself. You can map the colors as needed/preferred in Resolve. In fact, as easy as one plug-in. (Google too hard? Search YouTube. Some kind soul made a tutorial. Hardly more than one click.)

Do I wish that the camera and Resolve's presets behaved better, yes. Should you be putting weirdo filters in front of your camera to correct some non-existent camera problem? No.


I believe it would be wise to respect that not everyone, may not, have the same kind of knowledge you got. It’s also possible that you have misunderstood altogether, which makes it rather ironic.

Many have been put off by the problem Jamie is giving a solution to. I can understand that not everyone even knows what to search for in this case.

The “weirdo filter”, or IR cut filter, does something you can’t fix easy in post. In this case I linked to a filter that seem to work well to prevent LED lights, or other high intensity lights, clipping or change colour all together. Especially when recording in high iso (1250 or above) on the bmpcc4k. For instance, preventing red LED car tail lights or traffic lights clipping or turning yellow/orange.

So, it’s more like two challenges with different solutions. But combined they may be golden for someone recording a concert...
Offline

Uli Plank

  • Posts: 4615
  • Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:48 am

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostTue Feb 26, 2019 2:58 am

It's a basic problem with all electronic cameras. You can even challenge an Alexa with traffic lights or neon signs. Sonys, for example, have massive problems with monochromatic blue LEDs turning into Cyan. It happens when one or two of the color channels are driven into saturation and the other(s) are not. The differences are only the sensors and the specific color matrix.

Some very good tools to handle out of Gamut problems are 3D LUT Creator (better) or Nobe Color Remap, just give it a try.
Resolve Studio and Fusion Studio
iMac 2017 Radeon Pro 580 8 GB VRAM and 32 GB RAM
Offline

AngelDark92

  • Posts: 25
  • Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:07 pm
  • Real Name: Angelo Pascuzzi

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostFri Apr 05, 2019 12:57 am

Jamie LeJeune wrote:AFAIK the issue where highly saturated red sources were clipping has been fixed in the most recent 4K camera firmware


Was it an issue DaVinci misinterpreting the codec or a camera problem? Has it definitely been fixed per changelog?
Online
User avatar

Dmitry Shijan

  • Posts: 569
  • Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:15 pm
  • Location: UA

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostFri Apr 05, 2019 4:00 am

Red channel clipping problem also depends of color managed or non color managed workflow used. As you may know non-color managed timeline adds some sort of build in additional factory color correction to DNG source.

Here some tests with DNG Pocket4K sample from other thread:

Pocket4K non color managed. Crazy saturation clipping artifacts:
Image

Now switch to YRGB color managed (less saturation clipping artifacts):
Image

And this is with Timeline set to wider color gamut and flatter log gamma curve. Way less saturation clipping:
Image

UPDATE: RED IPP2 (contrast - High, Highlights - very soft):
Image

All tests (except RED IPP2) done with one single color space transform node added to the timeline.
Image


Another option is to use RED IPP2 color mapping in project settings. It have 3 different knee+contrast options. It produce even smoother compression than original Color Space Transform tool. But it is not available as a Node tool yet. You can apply it only project settings. By the way RED IPP2 compression in Resolve project settings is math formula based so it works with ANY timeline color space and gamma curve.

There are also RED IPP2 LUTs for timeline node. They do the same thing. https://www.red.com/downloads/options?itemInternalId=16126&version=4

YRGB non color managed (all gamma controls reset to 0):
Image

CST with Saturation Mappng:
Image

RED IPP2 (contrast - High, Highlights - very soft):
Image


Even those extreme 3200ISO samples with red lamp became usable with RED IPP2.

CST with Saturation Mappng:
Image

RED IPP2 (contrast - High, Highlights - very soft):
Image

And if lower expose we can see that all recovered highlights are there:
Image
All my custom made accessories for BMMCC/BMMSC now available here https://lavky.com/radioproektor/
Offline

Wayne Steven

  • Posts: 1832
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:58 am
  • Location: Earth
  • Warnings: 1

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostFri Apr 05, 2019 4:39 am

sicovanderplas wrote:
Uli Plank wrote:Get a Red Scarlet and you can have the same for a higher price ;-)

The scarlet performs better then the pocket across the whole board. But the point is that they should check the roll-off, it’s not only red, it’s any neon like color, basicly any stage light i’ve seen so far. At this point i cannot use the pocket professionally and the point was that you can.


I'm going make a few suggestions.

How often can you expose for the look of the lights and do everything else in post? Unfortunately it's not a 16 bit signal, bit fortunately the cameras pretty sensitive.

Naive attempt 2: Good monochromatic light sources may work around standard wavelengths, so there might be possible for there to be filters that target certain wavelengths to bring down their saturation on one or more channels (but as they light the scene, it's hard to tell if it will be practical).

Colour management as Dimitry says. In the old days reds cod be an issue due to not enough bit depth in the processing chain, so there is a long history of better colour management. The highlight recovery, rearranged to do coloured light recovery could detect an clipped/saturated area and map the movement in the other channels into the clipped area continuing the movement of the saturated channels on a bit better rolloff, or allowing a few more stops of exposure in the scene to play with if the lights exposed for what they will look like after the recovery. In this way the top end bits are expanded down a bit (please 16 bits BM?). Has BM in camera, or Resolve, got an option for this?

An idea I had years ago for the situation black sun effect on the Elphel cameras, was to detect the over saturation and change the bit to look the right colour (burned out). A number of light sources have a look which is somewhat predictable. So, seeing the curve/ramp/clip going into and in the light source, software could map a continuation of that curve adjusting bits at the top down, to give extra space, a bit similar to above, or solid fill with matching colour at full situation. But lights can have visible features on the surface that look better with curves. BM would have to sit with resolves and test such a feature on cameras and lights, moving and change level or color, to get a best idea.

The problem is a lot the overlap in the camera colour filter, but it is also the solution slowing a little more head room.
Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.
Offline
User avatar

joe12south

  • Posts: 397
  • Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:14 pm
  • Location: Nashville, TN
  • Real Name: Joseph Moore

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostFri Apr 05, 2019 3:16 pm

Oyvind Fiksdal wrote:
joe12south wrote:Learn to Google. Seriously, folks.

This is an issue with interpretation, not the camera itself. You can map the colors as needed/preferred in Resolve. In fact, as easy as one plug-in. (Google too hard? Search YouTube. Some kind soul made a tutorial. Hardly more than one click.)

Do I wish that the camera and Resolve's presets behaved better, yes. Should you be putting weirdo filters in front of your camera to correct some non-existent camera problem? No.


I believe it would be wise to respect that not everyone, may not, have the same kind of knowledge you got. It’s also possible that you have misunderstood altogether, which makes it rather ironic.

Many have been put off by the problem Jamie is giving a solution to. I can understand that not everyone even knows what to search for in this case.

The “weirdo filter”, or IR cut filter, does something you can’t fix easy in post. In this case I linked to a filter that seem to work well to prevent LED lights, or other high intensity lights, clipping or change colour all together. Especially when recording in high iso (1250 or above) on the bmpcc4k. For instance, preventing red LED car tail lights or traffic lights clipping or turning yellow/orange.

So, it’s more like two challenges with different solutions. But combined they may be golden for someone recording a concert...

My response was too terse, and for that I apologize...BUT...
This is a pretty well documented "issue" that has repeatedly been shown to be an issue interpreting the data in post, not a capture (in camera) issue.

Putting a filter on your camera to remove spectra that that impacts more than the out-of-range signal is probably a bad "brute force" solution to a problem that has a relatively elegant post-processing solution. (Multiple ones, in fact.)
Pocketluts: Purpose-built LUT system for the Black Magic Design Pocket Cinema Camera 4K
http://www.pocketluts.com/
Offline
User avatar

joe12south

  • Posts: 397
  • Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:14 pm
  • Location: Nashville, TN
  • Real Name: Joseph Moore

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostFri Apr 05, 2019 3:20 pm

Dmitry Shijan wrote:Another option is to use RED IPP2 color mapping in project settings. It have 3 different knee+contrast options. It produce even smoother compression than original Color Space Transform tool. But it is not available as a Node tool yet. You can apply it only project settings. By the way RED IPP2 compression in Resolve project settings is math formula based so it works with ANY timeline color space and gamma curve.

There are also RED IPP2 LUTs for timeline node. They do the same thing.

Nice find. Does indeed give even more pleasant results than other methods of bringing the gamut into range.

Seems to illustrate just how good of a job RED did with IPP2, and how BMD still has room to improve their color science. Here's looking forward to V5. ;-)
Pocketluts: Purpose-built LUT system for the Black Magic Design Pocket Cinema Camera 4K
http://www.pocketluts.com/
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 10546
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostFri Apr 05, 2019 4:34 pm

My last concert video on the URSA Mini 4.6K was shot in ProRes 444XQ Film but the colour in ACEScct AP1 is way too saturated. I played around with other options, but I’ll try this project timeline change shortly. Thanks for saving my bacon if this works.

No idea why the stage lights came out so harsh this time as often I have no problem. There was a lot more ‘colour’ in the lights but it seemed fine to the human eye. However looking at the footage was .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Rick Lang
Online
User avatar

Dmitry Shijan

  • Posts: 569
  • Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:15 pm
  • Location: UA

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostFri Apr 05, 2019 4:58 pm

Log3G10 log curve is based on old RED log curve which is based on Cineon log curve made by Kodak based on real film response curve to work with film scans. Cineon always looks great but appears a little limited for digital world. So RED create future proof Log3G10. Always love that curve look in terms of contrast response on timeline. Other modern LOG curves (including ACEScc and ACEScct) usually where designed based on digital sensors response or for digital VFX workflows needs, so they are far away from something reality based.
Log3G10 works well as universal timeline gamma but i noticed that that Red IPP2 Gamma Mapping shifts tonal response to the bright side, so footage looks "brighter" and some bright skin tones may look less 3D-like. Probably something specific to RED sensors response. Usually gamma adjustment or some other color helps to fix it. I done most tests with BMMCC, so for P4K it may look different. Still Prefer custom made LOG to Rec curve generated in LUTCalc app...
RED Wide Gamut color space itself actually less matters but it is really HUGE, so fits any sensor data.
Middle point for RED Log3G10 gamma in Contrast Pivot Settings - 0.38
Image
Image

Also generated some custom LUTs made from original RED IPP2 ones. They compress only color and don't affect contrast or gamma curve. Those LUTs produce slightly different look, but same as original IPP2, they compress saturation clipping very well. Archive also includes two custom generated 1D Log to Rec LUTs (RED Log3G10 to Amira 709 and RED Log3G10 to Alexa X2) Those are generated in LUTCalc online app and designed to compress gamma only.
So here is how it works:
- Set project setting to YRGB Color managed
- Set project Timeline to RED Wide Gamut and RED Log3G10
- Set project Output to Bypass
- Add CST node to the Timeline and apply Timeline to Rec709 for gamma transform only. Or you can also try provided bonus LOG to Rec LUT at this step.
- Add another node and apply provided IPP2 [COLOR ONLY] LUT

Download here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/6w49e6bbc1u67 ... s.zip?dl=0
All my custom made accessories for BMMCC/BMMSC now available here https://lavky.com/radioproektor/
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 10546
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostFri Apr 05, 2019 8:11 pm

Thank you very much, Dmitry! This was a big help in softening the look of the concert with stage lighting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Rick Lang
Offline

AngelDark92

  • Posts: 25
  • Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:07 pm
  • Real Name: Angelo Pascuzzi

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostSat Apr 06, 2019 1:09 am

Thanks Dimitri.

I was expecting something like that because I have seen someone on youtube using the gamut limiter to limit the blackmagic design film colour gamut to rec709 and that solves the problem. If you use broadcast film to rec709 (apparently that is the new version 4 colour science) it will also keep skin tones with no red channel issues. Video here.


I noticed you said DNG in your post, how does BRaw behave? DaVinci should recognise the camera and gamut settings since it's blackmagic's own codec.
Offline

Wayne Steven

  • Posts: 1832
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:58 am
  • Location: Earth
  • Warnings: 1

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostSat Apr 06, 2019 4:06 am

Interesting. You go to a modern led lit concert, the color is purer saturated red even looking into the light (unless you have something outside visual range, which is heaps more than your average camera). I see what this guy is applying is a look, insistently talking about film look, not reality. The choices I don't like, but it's his taste (there is an recent article on red shark news, I think, about his grades in recent years have gone very desaturated (MUCKY!!) probably because of some neurotic reason. A real turn off). But, however, I think its important to find out how to match what you see with the eye as a starting point (the saturated to the eye red car light, stage light or Christmas light, looks saturated red of the right hue) then play with that to the style they like. I'm going have to play around with stuff until I find the visually neutrally balanced profile.
Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.
Offline

Wayne Steven

  • Posts: 1832
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:58 am
  • Location: Earth
  • Warnings: 1

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostSat Apr 06, 2019 4:23 am

rick.lang wrote:My last concert video on the URSA Mini 4.6K was shot in ProRes 444XQ Film but the colour in ACEScct AP1 is way too saturated. I played around with other options, but I’ll try this project timeline change shortly. Thanks for saving my bacon if this works.

No idea why the stage lights came out so harsh this time as often I have no problem. There was a lot more ‘colour’ in the lights but it seemed fine to the human eye. However looking at the footage was .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Rick, did you expose for the lights (or use a different lens or filter)? That could drag down every thing else to dimmer more saturated levels requiring adjustment.

There is another thing. Your visual saturation levels can change a lot, look not so saturated on the night, but weeks latter feeling a lot better, look super saturated. People in the aspergers range anround here can get this, I also imagine their eyes are going to respond differently to the normal visual difference between the purity of the stage primaries and the LCD ones. Just being exposed to colour light sources for a while will change perception of other coloured light (plus your mind desaturates and beings up other colours).

With me, I bought an nice TV years ago. I have been noticing how desaturated it was becoming. Weeks latter of looks much more saturated, simy from health (something everybody should be mindful about, to have reference procedures to judge the look for how you are seeing at the time).
Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 10546
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostSat Apr 06, 2019 8:08 am

Wayne,the lighting was quite unusual with LED lights set on the stage, even the floor, at different angles to the talent with the LEDs often visible. Very bright and saturated and Dmitry helped bring those to a bearable level. As well the saturated light on the talent was garish when set to Rec.709 and again with these LUTs, everything was calmed down to an acceptable level. I’m satisfied with what I’ve got now and need to finish the edits of the footage now that it’s coloured. While I grade the five videos I’m doing from this footage, I’ll likely make some other tweaks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Rick Lang
Offline

deezid

  • Posts: 189
  • Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:38 am
  • Real Name: Dennis Schmitz

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostSat Apr 06, 2019 12:11 pm

joe12south wrote:
Dmitry Shijan wrote:Another option is to use RED IPP2 color mapping in project settings. It have 3 different knee+contrast options. It produce even smoother compression than original Color Space Transform tool. But it is not available as a Node tool yet. You can apply it only project settings. By the way RED IPP2 compression in Resolve project settings is math formula based so it works with ANY timeline color space and gamma curve.

There are also RED IPP2 LUTs for timeline node. They do the same thing.

Nice find. Does indeed give even more pleasant results than other methods of bringing the gamut into range.

Seems to illustrate just how good of a job RED did with IPP2, and how BMD still has room to improve their color science. Here's looking forward to V5. ;-)


RED did a fantastic job with IPP2 indeed.
Glad it's so easy to make use of their color science.
Have been using this workflow for a while and really hope BMD gets their act together for V5 as well ;)
Offline

Wayne Steven

  • Posts: 1832
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:58 am
  • Location: Earth
  • Warnings: 1

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostSat Apr 06, 2019 2:19 pm

rick.lang wrote:Wayne,the lighting was quite unusual with LED lights set on the stage, even the floor, at different angles to the talent with the LEDs often visible. Very bright and saturated and Dmitry helped bring those to a bearable level. As well the saturated light on the talent was garish when set to Rec.709 and again with these LUTs, everything was calmed down to an acceptable level. I’m satisfied with what I’ve got now and need to finish the edits of the footage now that it’s coloured. While I grade the five videos I’m doing from this footage, I’ll likely make some other tweaks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I know the sort. There was even a couple of big concerts playing at a store in recent weeks, pure red, I think another changing colours occasionally. But that is the look, not the best for consumer formats though, or bayer.

The problem is, that the consumer may well be in a lit room anyway. Their perception of the effect (special stage effect) will be skewed anyway.

I'll have to go to a concert now I'm feeling better, and get an fresh idea of the interpretation of the experience. Our visual system tries to colour balance so the main colour shifts and the other colours come out a bit, but not the same as the initial experience. The intensity is lower away from the lights. So, what would mapping the lower mono colour intensities down below the direct light, and the other colour up a bit, look like?

I think its use at concerts may get worse, as these led units are cheap for local bands and striking. Maybe like synthesizers and glitter, it will stop being the fashion eventually.
Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 10546
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostSat Apr 06, 2019 6:17 pm

I watched a lot of concerts this morning to see what lighting they had to contend with. A mixed bag, but in most cases the light on the principal performer is fairly white while everyone else takes a bath in intense coloured lights.

In the rehearsal they used a very bright white spot here and there which I asked them to tone down so as not to overpower the other performers. That was done so at least my video does have everyone viewable.

But the person responsible for lighting complained to me they couldn’t use the spot much as the producer wouldn’t pay to have the spot track the principal! Next time I can suggest to the producer to have a key spot on the performer (who just loved covering 100% of the stage and ventured far into the audience).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Rick Lang
Offline

AngelDark92

  • Posts: 25
  • Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:07 pm
  • Real Name: Angelo Pascuzzi

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostSun Apr 07, 2019 12:16 am

Does anyone know if BRaw actually behaves like DNG in this department? I am expecting the codecs from blackmagic to contain all the information needed for the DaVinci to correctly assign the right colour gamut automatically now but I don't have the camera to try it out right now.

Couple of posts ago:
AFAIK the issue where highly saturated red sources were clipping has been fixed in the most recent 4K camera firmware


But I haven't found the right firmware update that states this.
Offline

Wayne Steven

  • Posts: 1832
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:58 am
  • Location: Earth
  • Warnings: 1

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostSun Apr 07, 2019 2:34 am

Rick, that's good. The more conventional performances are probably still doing things better. The sort of music I see these days is modern contemporary when I walk through the TV department :). But did see a lot of local stuff before.
Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 10546
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostMon Apr 08, 2019 1:16 pm

Here is a concert 30” promo done using Dmitry Shijan’s LUTs mentioned above. You can see the problematic bright intensely saturated coloured LED lights that were garish without Dmitry Shijan's LUTs applied. Zero other grading done. This video uses all the recently acquired toys… except for the BMPCC4K MIA! Play from Vimeo to see the production details.

Rick Lang
Offline

AngelDark92

  • Posts: 25
  • Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:07 pm
  • Real Name: Angelo Pascuzzi

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostMon Apr 08, 2019 3:11 pm

Ah I see... I wasn't seeing this on mine because I had to burn the LUT directly onto the prores proxy clip since I am not going to be the editor. I had to record the Russian Gala Ballet Icons last week in London and I have used the BMPCC 4K because the theater would not allow a bigger camera (and also because it's a monster in low light conditions). The LUT I have used already limits the gamut to rec 709 from ARRI Log C, that's what's making my footage's highlights and colours already fixed.

I have yet to try BRaw though, but I am guessing it must have the same problem. The gamut needs to be limited because, even though Blackmagic seems to have a greater Gamut, it just can't be shown on Rec 709 screens or conventional screens. Or maybe DaVinci just automatically assigns the wrong gamut. At least that's what I got from all this...
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 10546
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostMon Apr 08, 2019 3:26 pm

Reread Dmitry’s detailed instructions. There’s two LUTs that work in concert. If you were baking the LUT into the camera’s video, you would be missing part of the story I think. This is the first time I’ve used these LUTs so I may be wrong.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Rick Lang
Offline

AngelDark92

  • Posts: 25
  • Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:07 pm
  • Real Name: Angelo Pascuzzi

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostMon Apr 08, 2019 3:43 pm

Yes, I am missing part of the story indeed. Recording the LUT directly onto the track already limits the gamut on its own, no need for correction in post. I am going to try BRaw as soon as I can and use those two LUTs or a gamut limiter and see which works best.
Offline

Wayne Steven

  • Posts: 1832
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:58 am
  • Location: Earth
  • Warnings: 1

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostMon Apr 08, 2019 6:13 pm

rick.lang wrote:Here is a concert 30” promo done using Dmitry Shijan’s LUTs mentioned above. You can see the problematic bright intensely saturated coloured LED lights that were garish without Dmitry Shijan's LUTs applied. Zero other grading done. This video uses all the recently acquired toys… except for the BMPCC4K MIA! Play from Vimeo to see the production details.



Can we see the same without Dimitry's luts Rick,?
Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 10546
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostMon Apr 08, 2019 8:19 pm

Sure, I’ll put that together later today or tomorrow. Need to run.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Rick Lang
Offline

Wayne Steven

  • Posts: 1832
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:58 am
  • Location: Earth
  • Warnings: 1

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostMon Apr 08, 2019 9:54 pm

Thanks.

To give you an idea where I'm coming from:

Image

Image

Pure reds.

Image
Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.
Offline
User avatar

rick.lang

  • Posts: 10546
  • Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:41 pm
  • Location: Victoria BC Canada

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostMon Apr 08, 2019 11:38 pm

Here’s a quick look at the Aretha Franklin video without LUTs and using ACEScct which is what I normally use:



password UM46K
Rick Lang
Offline

Wayne Steven

  • Posts: 1832
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:58 am
  • Location: Earth
  • Warnings: 1

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostTue Apr 09, 2019 8:12 am

Which one looked more like the real life one if watching in the dark for a while and similar brightness?

I like the standard one better. I've seen stuff like I posted above, ts the money intended artistic choice of the concert. They had dual view buttons fir disks years ago, I think a dual grade button is probably needed, so they can choose a different grade. Because whatever the lighting director thinks, some people will prefers a less colorful version. This other companies issue is, that some people in the aspie range perceive colours more strongly, some dully. I range between the two depending on health but prefer the pizazz look myself.
Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.
Offline

Wayne Steven

  • Posts: 1832
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:58 am
  • Location: Earth
  • Warnings: 1

Re: Blackmagic Pocket Camera 4K Colour Fringing and colour i

PostTue Apr 09, 2019 8:14 am

I do however, like your toned down version. Would be excellent to have a button for that.
Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.
Next

Return to Cinematography

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: davorin, Dmitry Shijan, John Griffin and 14 guests