BRAW Gamma Controls greyed out

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Chris Gosling

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BRAW Gamma Controls greyed out

PostFri Nov 30, 2018 12:08 pm

In v15.1 when using clip decoding in a Davinci YRGB Color Managed document, there was access to the gamma controls fro BRAW clips.

Under 15.2 (and 15.2.1) this has now been removed. When I open an old document I can see the adjustments that where made - but can no longer change them.

Am I missing something - or is this just "the way it is" now?

Chris
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Jim Simon

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Re: BRAW Gamma Controls greyed out

PostFri Nov 30, 2018 4:59 pm

Yeah, there's a whole bunch of RAW controls that are no longer accessible.

That's...disturbing. Kind of defeats the point of RAW.
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Jean Claude

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Re: BRAW Gamma Controls greyed out

PostFri Nov 30, 2018 6:55 pm

There is surely a problem with the settings at the project level.
Here no issue. :) (quick test)

BRAW_settings.jpg
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Chris Gosling

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Re: BRAW Gamma Controls greyed out

PostFri Nov 30, 2018 7:00 pm

Jean Claude - is that a DaVinci YRGB color managed project?? That's when the problem occurs.

Opened up an old project where I could adjust the gamma settings (in 15.1) and they are greyed out.
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Jean Claude

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Re: BRAW Gamma Controls greyed out

PostSat Dec 01, 2018 9:54 am

Chris Gosling wrote:Jean Claude - is that a DaVinci YRGB color managed project?? That's when the problem occurs. Opened up an old project where I could adjust the gamma settings (in 15.1) and they are greyed out.


Hello Chris,
Starting just this with v15.2.1.
After we can also work with OFX color Transform, etc ... :)
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Chris Gosling

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Re: BRAW Gamma Controls greyed out

PostSat Dec 01, 2018 1:53 pm

I realize you can do this by only using Davinci RGB. But when you have older projects that lose the ability to to change things that you could before it kinda sucks.

I don't feel like regrading/redoing whole projects with the color space transform.
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Jim Simon

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Re: BRAW Gamma Controls greyed out

PostSat Dec 01, 2018 4:01 pm

Jean Claude wrote:There is surely a problem with the settings at the project level.


I can only access the RAW controls with Color Science set to DaVinci YRGB. In a Color Managed or ACES workflow, we lose those controls.

That's not good.
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Jean Claude

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Re: BRAW Gamma Controls greyed out

PostSat Dec 01, 2018 5:07 pm

Jim Simon wrote:
Jean Claude wrote:There is surely a problem with the settings at the project level.


I can only access the RAW controls with Color Science set to DaVinci YRGB. In a Color Managed or ACES workflow, we lose those controls.

That's not good.


Surely adapt to a new workflow ACES (AP0)
https://mixinglight.com/color-tutorial/ ... es-part-2/

BRAW_settings_color_management_ACES_AP0.jpg
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Chris Gosling

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Re: BRAW Gamma Controls greyed out

PostSat Dec 01, 2018 7:30 pm

Tried ACES yesterday as well and the RAW gamma controls where also greyed out (if I remember correctly - away from my machine)

All of the color managed workflows had the same problem.

It's also not really a question of learning a new workflow - done it before and will do it again - but when you can't access old projects in the same way just makes for more work than needed.

The Davinci color managed timelines where great when mixing cameras.
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Jim Simon

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Re: BRAW Gamma Controls greyed out

PostTue Dec 04, 2018 4:08 pm

Jean Claude wrote:Surely adapt to a new workflow


I would consider this a bug that needs immediate attention.
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Dmitry Shijan

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Re: BRAW Gamma Controls greyed out

PostMon Mar 18, 2019 5:48 pm

My guess BM wants to keep here same logic as with DNG and give us two options for RAW:
In YRGB (non color managed) you have those "gamma controls" sliders that acts like color correction build into .sidecar file. This probably designed for simpler workflow but makes RAW output less "raw" because color correction was already applied. Earlier when working with DNG on YRGB (non color managed) timeline video also looks more vivid and saturated because some kind of factory color correction profile was already applied, but there where no custom control sliders for it.

In YRGB color managed workflow Resolve gives us most untouched "raw" starting point for further color correction and transforms with secondary Resolve tools because those "gamma controls" are disabled. More advanced workflow. Same goes to DNG - in YRGB color managed timeline it looks less saturated with less perfect colors but same time produce less artifacts during color correction.

My guess at first they want to keep gamma controls in both color managed and non color managed workflows, but after further testing those additional controls may produce some artifacts during extreme color transforms so they remove it from color managed workflow.
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Dmitry Shijan

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Re: BRAW Gamma Controls greyed out

PostMon Mar 18, 2019 6:23 pm

By the way known "Red channel clipping" problem seems also may be caused by those not too accurate gamma controls combined with not too wide Pocket4K gamut. Here is tests with DNG Pocket4K sample from other thread:

Pocket4K non color managed. Crazy saturation clipping artifacts:
Image

Now switch to YRGB color managed (less saturation clipping artifacts):
Image

And this is with Timeline set to wider color gamut and flatter log gamma curve. Way less saturation clipping:
Image

All tests done with one single color space transform node added to the timeline.
Image
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Jim Simon

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Re: BRAW Gamma Controls greyed out

PostThu Aug 15, 2019 10:38 pm

So, this is still a problem even in Studio 16.1b1.

We must have access to the Gamma controls in an ACES/RCM work flow.
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John Paines

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Re: BRAW Gamma Controls greyed out

PostThu Aug 15, 2019 10:49 pm

This is not a bug. The values those controls represent have already been assigned in the course of color management. The footage is no longer "raw", in that respect. Use the regular controls. There's no real difference anyway.
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Jim Simon

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Re: BRAW Gamma Controls greyed out

PostThu Aug 15, 2019 11:06 pm

John Paines wrote:The footage is no longer "raw", in that respect.


That...sucks!

So my 'perfect' camera just fell off its pedestal. :(
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John Paines

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Re: BRAW Gamma Controls greyed out

PostThu Aug 15, 2019 11:09 pm

Bosh! Back in the cdng days, some of us tried comparing the effectiveness of raw controls v. the usual primary wheels, contrast controls, etc..

If there's a difference, nobody could see it. In the end, it's all numbers. Doesn't matter how you produce them.
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Marc Wielage

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Re: BRAW Gamma Controls greyed out

PostFri Aug 16, 2019 12:55 am

John Paines wrote:Bosh! Back in the cdng days, some of us tried comparing the effectiveness of raw controls v. the usual primary wheels, contrast controls, etc.. If there's a difference, nobody could see it. In the end, it's all numbers. Doesn't matter how you produce them.

I think this is true except for the color temperature controls. When done in Raw, you get a different effect than lift/gamma/gain. I would always prefer setting ISO, exposure, and color temp with the Raw controls, and then doing everything else with the curves, gain (LGG and Log), keys, windows and so on within Resolve.

MixingLight had a good comparison of what you could and could not do in the Raw controls a couple of years back. Their conclusion was it was best just to set a basic overall look in Raw, then do 99% of everything else with the traditional Resolve controls. Trying to colorgrade entirely in Raw is insane and just takes much, much too much time. (I have to confess, it's easier to get to the Raw controls with a control surface, and that does help.)
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John Paines

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Re: BRAW Gamma Controls greyed out

PostFri Aug 16, 2019 2:05 am

Fair enough. In this case -- braw -- you still do get iso, color temp, tint and exposure, with color management. So the basics are there.

There's also a question of how "raw" this raw really is, but that's one for another day....
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Hendrik Proosa

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Re: BRAW Gamma Controls greyed out

PostFri Aug 16, 2019 5:20 am

Marc Wielage wrote:I think this is true except for the color temperature controls. When done in Raw, you get a different effect than lift/gamma/gain.

May I ask what this different effect is? Changing let's say gain on log values vs linear will give different results, but not due to some inherent magic but simple fact that values that you modify are different. It is not a property that comes from raw, rather it depends whether operations are done in technically meaningful way or not.

John Paines wrote:There's also a question of how "raw" this raw really is, but that's one for another day....

The main question is, what is raw anyway? Define raw first and you get the answer whether braw is or is not.
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Jim Simon

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Re: BRAW Gamma Controls greyed out

PostSat Aug 17, 2019 4:14 pm

Marc Wielage wrote:Trying to colorgrade entirely in Raw is insane


Not looking to grade, just basic corrections.

Shadows and Highlights in particular. Maybe a little Saturation.

I'm not getting as good results with BRAW in ACES as cDNG in ACES because those RAW controls are missing.

That bothers me.
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John Paines

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Re: BRAW Gamma Controls greyed out

PostSat Aug 17, 2019 4:56 pm

Try RCM. In Resolve, it gives you the same level of primary control you'd expect outside color management. That's not the case with ACEs, where the adjustments are constrained.

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