CFAST cost rant

Cfast card prices are outrages, for the price of a 500gb cards I could by a decent laptop!
This is absolute gorging

Cfast card prices are outrages, for the price of a 500gb cards I could by a decent laptop!
This is absolute gorging

Have you looked at ProGrade Digital? On B&H you can buy a single 512 GB CFast 2.0 Card for $699.99 or buy a 512 GB Two-Pack for $1,199.99. So buying the Two-Pack saves you near $200 compared to buying each card by themselves.

Personally I have the 256 GB Cards and they work great on my URSA Mini 4.6K. I bought a Two-Pack when there was a deal at $545.99, which makes it that I got 512 GB of space at a great price per card.


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Cfast card prices are outrages, for the price of a 500gb cards I could by a decent laptop!
This is absolute gorging

No, it is supply and demand, and the deman is low, so cost is high on low volume output. CFast are like CF cards 10-years ago, being used by mostly by pro market, not consumer market.
Cheers

Yes, they came down a couple of years back then never moved. I’ve still got the 4 64gb cards I got with my big ursa four years ago.

Fortunately the mini pro does braw using £20 Sandisk cards at 4.6k res and I’ve yet to see a dropped frame and that’s pretty much all I shoot now and can’t see me going back to prores

I have two Samsung T5 1TB cards that cost less than a 256GB CFast card. And I don't need a CFast reader to connect to my PC for editing/file transfer.

All I can say is kudos to Blackmagic for implementing an option to use external SSDs.

Exactly. Don't buy CFast cards. We are the market, we create the demand and therefore should determine what an acceptable price is. We do that by not paying what they are asking. The only advantage to using CFast cards is that your USB-C port becomes available. Also, much nicer for gimabl setups, but the workarounds are quite reasonable so I've given up on CFast cards. If the prices drop dramatically, I may reconsider. By dramatically I mean the same as UHS-II SD Cards. Once BRAW is available we'll have no need for them anyway.

Yes, they came down a couple of years back then never moved. I’ve still got the 4 64gb cards I got with my big ursa four years ago.

Fortunately the mini pro does braw using £20 Sandisk cards at 4.6k res and I’ve yet to see a dropped frame and that’s pretty much all I shoot now and can’t see me going back to prores

what braw do you shoot on sd cards? Considering you are saying 20 pounds, those aren't extreme version?
SSD module is a charm, but cards are easier for steady cam.

Yes, they came down a couple of years back then never moved. I’ve still got the 4 64gb cards I got with my big ursa four years ago.

Fortunately the mini pro does braw using £20 Sandisk cards at 4.6k res and I’ve yet to see a dropped frame and that’s pretty much all I shoot now and can’t see me going back to prores

what braw do you shoot on sd cards? Considering you are saying 20 pounds, those aren't extreme version?
SSD module is a charm, but cards are easier for steady cam.

I believe someone said the 4.6K 12:1 BRAW is smaller than HD ProRes HQ.

- Ssd recorder from Blackmagic Design
- adapter from cfast to esata (that allow you double recording on dual ssd)

You not need cfast for every pro cam of ursa series, and for pocket4k you have usb-c option.

Cfast are good ten years ago, but for me, for problems happened with it, with simple photo camera (and loss of data recorded on famous brand) I avoid it like evil.




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I believe someone said the 4.6K 12:1 BRAW is smaller than HD ProRes HQ.

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicraw

1/3 of the way down the page you can see a chart with all the data rates on it.

Yes, they came down a couple of years back then never moved. I’ve still got the 4 64gb cards I got with my big ursa four years ago.

Fortunately the mini pro does braw using £20 Sandisk cards at 4.6k res and I’ve yet to see a dropped frame and that’s pretty much all I shoot now and can’t see me going back to prores

what braw do you shoot on sd cards? Considering you are saying 20 pounds, those aren't extreme version?
SSD module is a charm, but cards are easier for steady cam.

4.6k 12:1 on the sandisk extreme 95MB/s. The 64gb version gets 28 minutes on a card, prores 444 HD gets the same. Honestly, braw is amazing.

I believe someone said the 4.6K 12:1 BRAW is smaller than HD ProRes HQ.

On a 256GB Card at 23.98fps you can record:

115 mins @ 4.6K 12:1 BRAW
164 mins @ UHD 12:1 BRAW (note, however, that since it is a raw format the UHD is a crop of the full sensor)

127 mins @ HD ProRes444 (downscaled from full sensor or cropped)
190 mins @ HD ProResHQ (downscaled from full sensor or cropped)

Depending on the scene, you might get a longer or shorter running time in 4.6K Q5 BRAW compared with 4.6K 12:1 BRAW

The pricing is stupid gouging. Inside of that form factor are the same memory chips.

Sure vendors can charge whatever they think the market will bear, but the market won't accept current prices. We run to SD or SSD. If prices were even in the same ballpark I'd choose CFAST for the convenience, but as it is I can't justify it when a Samsung T5 is only slightly less convenient.

Carlo, CFast cards did not exist 10 years ago, you are thinking of CF cards and the issues they had. CFast cards fixed the pin connection issue on CF cards. CFas 1 csme to the market in late (4th Qtr) 2009, but we’re nit really available until 2010. The CFast 2.0 specification was released in the second quarter of 2012, updating the electrical interface to SATA 3.0, thus increasing read and record speeds. So CFast 2 cards have only been out for six years or so.

Still, even though more expensive than a SD card, they have come down in price...
Cheers

Okay. In 2014 when the URSA was introduced a 256 GB CFast 2.0 card cost around $1,300. By December 2015 a 256 GB card cost around $600. Now in 2018 I bought 2 256 GB cards for $545, which means $275 per card maybe. Prices for CFast 2.0 cards have dropped.

I don’t know where this complaining is coming from. Obviously anyone complaining about current costs are new to CFast 2.0 cards. Please relax because the prices are far better than they were and will continues to improve.


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No one is forcing you to buy CFast 2 cards as there are other options. Although never perfect, CFast tends to be physically durable and reliable to sustain high data rate continuous recording. My SDXC card always feels like I could accidentally snap it in two.

You do have to be careful that you give the CFast 2 card a few moments before yanking the card out of the camera or card readers. You always need to eject it and wait before removing from a card reader. Best practice is unloading and loading it in the camera with the camera turned off. That’s not mandatory but safe.

And BRAW 12:1 and Q5 doesn’t require you use CFast 2, but Q0 probably does for complex scenes since it can be comparable to about half the data rate of uncompressed raw. So CFast 2 ends up being one of the best solutions because it is versatile and has fewer limitations. I can’t wait to try Q5 for client shoots, but I also want to be able to do Q0.


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The high end cine cameras that use SSDs are using special proprietary SSDs, designed for those cameras.
CFast is the end of the CF memory card formfactor. SD cards are unreliable, and the new issues with recent SanDisk cards are an example. SSDs while reliable, are continuing to evolve into smaller form factors, and a new system will come along and replace the lot.

XQD cards are small like SD cards, are more reliable, and have begun to replace SD cards in some Pro still cameras, “XQD card is a memory card format primarily developed for flash memory cards. It uses PCI Express as a data transfer interface. The format is targeted at high-definition camcorders and high-resolution digital cameras.”

But they too are just a stepping stone to CFexpress, “a standard for removable media cards proposed by the CompactFlash Association. The standard will use PCIe 3.0 interface with 1 to 8 lanes where 1 GB/s data can be provided per lane.” So, as the song goes, the times are a changing!
Cheers

The pricing is stupid gouging. Inside of that form factor are the same memory chips.

That is just absolutely NOT true. There are several different types of flash memory cells and the cheap ones used in the Samsung T5 are consumer grade, while you get industrial grade cells in CFast cards.
I totally understand not everyone wants to pay the higher prices for industrial grade cells, but so you have to take the higher risk. And yes, there are cases of dead CFast cards, I know.
The question is, how reliable will the new generation of 3D NAND be under the datastream and summer heat stress with a camera writing maybe even several TBs per day. That SSD was not meant to be used in that kind of scenario.

The race to the bottom.


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- adapter from cfast to esata (that allow you double recording on dual ssd)
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I am using this adapter to a Samsung 1TB 860 Evo SSD housed in an Atomos "Master Caddy" housing. I just velcro them to the back of the battery. Power is via a usb to D-tap adapter that plugs directly into the Evo. So far I have tested every resolution and codec and it works for all of them including Braw at 4.6K.

Anyone else using this set up?

CFast is already dying, as the CF/CFast interface is being replaced with the smaller XQD/CFexpress system currently being used in new cameras that previously supported CF/SD cards. Not that many cameras adopted CFast in the first place, so the market share small.
Cheers

That is just absolutely NOT true. There are several different types of flash memory cells and the cheap ones used in the Samsung T5 are consumer grade, while you get industrial grade cells in CFast cards.
I totally understand not everyone wants to pay the higher prices for industrial grade cells, but so you have to take the higher risk. And yes, there are cases of dead CFast cards, I know.
The question is, how reliable will the new generation of 3D NAND be under the datastream and summer heat stress with a camera writing maybe even several TBs per day. That SSD was not meant to be used in that kind of scenario.

The CFast memory technology is the same as for other formats, but in a smaller form-factor with a SATA interface. There is no military grade tech in consumer CFast cards. Also, because SSDs are a recognised format for removable storage, they have been made sturdier for that very reason. They are portable and will be inserted and removed frequently.

Ok, so we just have to take your word for it that it's all the same?
So tell me, what is the Samsung T5 using, and what is a high grade CFast card using? SLC, MLC, TLC, 3D MLC, 3D TLC? How many nm is the lithography? How many P/E cycles do they support? Which storage controller are they using?

The T5 uses Samsungs cheaper 3D VNAND cells, is only rated to be used inside and in a temperature range of 5 to 35° Celsius and 10% to 80% humidity. The Angelbird CFast 2.0 cards are using the robust but more expensive MLC cells and are rated to work inbetween 0 to 70° Celsius and 5% to 95% humidity.

Too bad you didn't read your linked article till the end:

As with practically all facets of IT, NAND flash continues to evolve. Nowadays, even TLC is punching above its weight class.

In a 2016 examination of the high-capacity SSD market, Enterprise Storage Forum noted that "things have moved on in the high capacity SSD space, and the stigma around anything that isn't made of SLC has gone. It's now pretty standard for high capacity SSDs for enterprises to make use of MLC or even TLC (triple level cell) flash."

For all practical purposes, "MLC is arguably just as good as SLC" in enterprise use cases, he concluded, a sentiment shared by Jim Handy, a semiconductor analyst at Objective Analysis. "Today's MLC is better than yesterday's SLC," Handy declared.

I emailed a cfast manufacturer to see if they offered student discounts direct from the manufacturer. They said cfast cards are a commodity, and that the manufacturer doesn’t set prices. They sent me a link to B&H camera in New York.

I understand costs are dictated by stockholders, but when you consider many of these cards are made in China, I can’t imagine they cost more than a couple of dollars to make, regardless of the storage capacity. The cost difference between manufacturing a 32 GB card and a 512 GB card is miniscule.

The biggest issue comes down to greed. It is unfortunate that cfast is headed down the path of Beta tapes, and will soon find itself obsolete.

Consumers have been left to their own devices to figure out cost effective ways of storage, which gave birth to the various cfast to ssd adapters on the market.

Off topic, but related.

This bring me to the awesomeness of Black Magic. They have created an affordable line of cameras that can compete with the big dogs. I just hope BM reconsiders their decision to bail on earlier camera products. Part of the attraction of BM is customer support.

To me, that means standing behind their older products, like the Big Ursa V1 with updates and upgrades. There is no logical reason why the Ursa Mini Pro updates can’t apply to the big Ursa, and why the 4.6k sensor can’t be made available too. Ursa V1 is a beast, and I love it!

One upgrade I would like to see is a replacement for the cfast module. BM could create an entire user replaceable module that replaces the cfast card module with optional storage options from thunderbolt out to cfast espress, or ssd. Multiple storage options is a huge deal.

I understand costs are dictated by stockholders, but when you consider many of these cards are made in China, I can’t imagine they cost more than a couple of dollars to make, regardless of the storage capacity. The cost difference between manufacturing a 32 GB card and a 512 GB card is miniscule.

I am sorry to be so direct: but you are just pulling a Dunning-Krueger effect here. You have ZERO knowledge about the costs to produce CFAST cards, which technology it takes, testing procedures, programming of the controller logic, testing with camera timings and more. Maintaining customer support, and more. If you calculate your own prices like you propose here with what you think the cards should cost, then you will be very fast out of your business.

The biggest issue comes down to greed. It is unfortunate that cfast is headed down the path of Beta tapes, and will soon find itself obsolete.

Greed? So tell me, what is the profit you get from your work? Are you offering your work for nothing more than covered expenses?

Agreed - not all high prices are because of greed.
When I used to ranch I sold hay. A fellow came by and said my neighbour was a dollar cheaper per bale, about 35%. "Yup," I said, "well he knows what his hay is worth."
But, we are getting off topic here.

This thread still alive?

I've been using these since getting my BM last year and they've served me well. Used to do CDNG 4:1, BRAW 5:1 and now settled on BRAW Q5, no issues. Maybe it helps.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B079WMSV8Q

I'm still shocked that this thread is still going. Why? CFast 2.0 costs have come down a huge amount in the last 6-years. So why are you complaining? It once cost 1,200 for a 128 GB Card. Now you can get a two pack of 512 GB cards for 1,200. So 1 TB for 1,200 essentially! Stop belly-aching about the cost. The cost has come down.

It's not like a REDMAG which costs a ton and is controlled 100% by RED since it's their own proprietary media. CFast has competitive manufacturers who drop prices regularly to compete with others.

I emailed a cfast manufacturer to see if they offered student discounts direct from the manufacturer. They said cfast cards are a commodity, and that the manufacturer doesn’t set prices. They sent me a link to B&H camera in New York.

That is a completely reasonable question, which the people responding to you have for whatever reason chosen to ignore. Also, as people who have worked in the field of completion law/antitrust will tell you, the statement that these cards are a commodity is entirely about deflecting questions about price, and the idea that retailers are independently competing on price is naive in the extreme. To pick up on the example given by one of the people who responded to you, this is not local farmers selling hay. However, from the perspective of the manufacturers of these cards, it’s great if you can get people to believe that it is.

It’s not a light read but Nagle and Holden’s “The Strategy and Tactics of Pricing” can help you understand why “it costs X, therefore I should be able to buy it for Y” isn’t a straightforward exercise.

My simplified explanation is that price is what people are willing to pay. The cost determines if the seller can make money or not. Cost+ is a very naive pricing strategy though it is very often used because it’s much easier than figuring out the real value offered to the prospective buyer.

Steve


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Maybe this year we can start ranting about the cost of those CFExpress cards! Look the price is dropping already!


https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1531996-REG

Maybe this year we can start ranting about the cost of those CFExpress cards! Look the price is dropping already!


https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1531996-REG

599 for 512 GB!!! That’s a great deal for CFExpress! Wow! I do hope the price keeps dropping and we could go to dual CFExpress in the next form of the URSA Mini. Maybe CFExpress is the key to higher resolution files.

4 512 GB cards would get 2 TB before needing to drop files to record more. 6K BRAW 3:1 gets 31 minutes on 512 GB, which means that 2 TB would be roughly 2 hours of footage. So 8K would definitely be more feasible with CFExpress cards.


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My guess is the CFExpress will debut with a BMD 8K Camera... at NAB... 2020 or 2021.

My guess is the CFExpress will debut with a BMD 8K Camera... at NAB... 2020 or 2021.

Probably 2021. I don’t think 8K is happening until Blackmagic gets good LF (Full Frame) sensors that they can use.

Personally I don’t need 8K as I still rarely deliver in 4K to a lot of clients.


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I'm still shocked that this thread is still going. Why? CFast 2.0 costs have come down a huge amount in the last 6-years. So why are you complaining? It once cost 1,200 for a 128 GB Card. Now you can get a two pack of 512 GB cards for 1,200. So 1 TB for 1,200 essentially! Stop belly-aching about the cost. The cost has come down.

It's not like a REDMAG which costs a ton and is controlled 100% by RED since it's their own proprietary media. CFast has competitive manufacturers who drop prices regularly to compete with others.

As someone who used to (and occasionally still does) shoot on P2 media, I think this is funny. Do you think $279 US for a 256GB card is expensive? Try $1,100 for the same amount of memory in a proprietary form factor that ONLY works in a subset of Panasonic cameras! Or, how about a 30GB F-series P2 card that costs over $350? Or Sony's SxS - a 240GB stick will easily set you back ~$1,500! I like Cfast for its size, speed, robustness, and transferability between different devices. I understand why others may not like it as much, or find it too expensive, but it's not the worst storage format that BMD could have chosen!

Shawn