Bluetooth Remote

I’m putting this out here, perhaps in the hope that Blackmagic might give this idea some thought and, given their manufacturing contacts and intimate knowledge of their product, they might just consider producing a Bluetooth remote.

Now what I mean by a Bluetooth remote is a hand controller that you can use in the hand or attached to a rig handle or the like. I’m not a big fan of mobile phone apps, as they simply introduce another device that you have to manage and watch for it to work, which means that you have to take your eyes and hand/s off your camera. And mobile phones aren't always that great to handle in these situations or in bright sunlight.

What I’d like is a simple controller that turns the recording on and off, and perhaps can adjust focus and aperture (lens dependent). When I’m using my rig and following a subject, using my follow focus, I really don’t want to take my eyes off the field monitor to especially turn on recording. A controller that could be attached to one of the handles on the rig (or anywhere convenient) and which simply connects to the camera when both are turned on and maybe can even be powered by a external battery would be brilliant.

Wireless remotes for stills cameras are a dime a dozen, but I suspect that something like this would be a long time coming for the BMPCC4K, if ever. When I think about it, even my Olympus LS-14 audio recorder has the ability to be controlled via a Bluetooth controller: https://www.olympus.com.au/getattachment/3cd9029a-8236-4045-aaf4-9eb16d922d9d/ti-RS30W.jpg.

Would anyone else find such a thing useful?

It is absolutely very important. I need a lot when using the gimbal.

What I'm about to suggest takes it much further than just a simple start/stop remote, but you mentioned following a subject keeping focus, not wanting to look away and someone else mentioned needing something like this for a gimbal. Have you checked out the nucleus-m or nucleus-n? it is a FIZ with rec start/stop functionality. I haven't used the n, but I have the m and love it. I never have to take my hand off the handle.

What I'm about to suggest takes it much further than just a simple start/stop remote, but you mentioned following a subject keeping focus, not wanting to look away and someone else mentioned needing something like this for a gimbal. Have you checked out the nucleus-m or nucleus-n? it is a FIZ with rec start/stop functionality. I haven't used the n, but I have the m and love it. I never have to take my hand off the handle.

Does Tilta nucleus nano support start stop on the Blackmagic pocket 4k camera?

I have heard of it and I just checked to refresh my memory. It's not really what I'm after and at US$1199 (https://tilta.com/shop/nucleus-m-wireless-follow-focus/) is more than what I paid for the camera.

What I'm after is a simple Bluetooth controller that, at most, would cost 1/10th of that and I'd be happy if it just turned recording on and off. When I'm recording, I'm looking at the field monitor and controlling focus using a follow focus wheel with my left hand and the pan/tilt with my right, so all I need is for my right hand to be able to start recording without me taking my eyes off the monitor.

Tilta nucleus nano 229 $
https://tilta.com/shop/nucleus-nano-wir ... ol-system/

But it is just a single follow focus, right? Nothing to do with start/stop recording from what I thought I’d seen.


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But it is just a single follow focus, right? Nothing to do with start/stop recording from what I thought I’d seen.


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B&H
It says in the question-answer section.

How does the Nucleus-Nano send a start/stop signal to the camera? What cameras is the start/stop signal compatible with?

Once you set up the motor and controller on your camera rig, you need to run an included camera-specific cable from the motor to the camera. You press "REC" to start recording and "REC" again to stop recording.
Answered by Dennis A STAFF on Nov 5, 2018


https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... ntrol.html

Thanks, pulalis. Perhaps that uses some Lanc protocol but not if its camera specific.


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Unfortunately, there's no cable connection on the camera to allow such a device to work, you need a Bluetooth controller.

I believe it could be done through USB-C. But based on the renders, it appears Tilta is using Bluetooth.

What would be great, is if someone could create a LANC to USB-C adapter with a USB-C pass-through. No idea if something like that is possible though. LANC to USB-C should definitely be possible.

It would be the reverse of this:



From Applied Logic Engineering.

Yeah, I'm hoping it could be through a usb-c connection

I just played with the BMPCC4K Record Button app on my Pixel 3. Hands off for developing the app. It's still very buggy, but record and focus do work. But random things like iso changed when I pressed on parts of the screen that appeared blank. And couldn't figure out how to toggle between store and recall on focus presets.

Using a phone as a gimble remote is far from ideal. Gimble operation is a selling point of a small MFT format camera. I hope a proper gimble mountable bluetooth remote is in the works. The lack of gimble remote eliminates this camera from 50% of what I'd use it for.

I've just reached over to my side draw to get one of these out. These VR/Game and camera controllers are like $5 or so dollars, very small, Bluetooth, and come with differing amounts of controls. My other one has more controls than this. However, maybe BM would like to make one with rocker switches and roller wheels for generic use. Would be useful in the wider market.

Bluetooth VR/Game/Shutter controller.

IMG_20181213_233358.jpg (159.2 KiB) Viewed 22860 times

Under android you can program each button to do something different, though it depends on the app. I was going to use them to control mobile phone camera apps during filming. I was going to mount them for tripod work as well. Bluetooth, as USB does, will have device setup for multimedia controllers. So the camera might even have support built in already, or may need a firmware update. Please BM, a firmware update please?

Its a shame BM doesn't have a programming api for their cameras. They could just use JavaScript to use the api. Please BM, we could do the above and many little things which can latter be rolled into updates with fresh code.

Lets see now...

In the Pocket 4K manual there is Bluetooth and SDI control info for third party developers. The SDI seems to be there for the control messages that the Bluetooth also uses. Bluetooth uses/requires 6 digit pin for pairing (camera shows).

From messages on these forums the HDMI port supports start and stop record function, this is achieved by manipulating timecode on some cameras according to Atomos support web page.

There are some code samples available for other BM camera, should be mostly the same. The code samples are from/for Mac IDE.

...for "simple" Bluetooth controllers the camera would need to be able to do the pairing pin thingie.

I just played with the BMPCC4K Record Button app on my Pixel 3. Hands off for developing the app. It's still very buggy, but record and focus do work. But random things like iso changed when I pressed on parts of the screen that appeared blank. And couldn't figure out how to toggle between store and recall on focus presets.

I did not get any such bug report from anyone and have no such issue myself.
Why didn't you report it, so I can find and fix that?
Please contact me via email with the details!

ISO should only be possible to change when pressing the ISO-slider in the "Settings: record" page.
The click area is the Android-standard 48dB and always slightly larger then the visible button.
(That's recommend by the Android Design Guidelines.)
Also "BMPC Record Button" is the very old name and indicate that it's a very old version of the app.
It has seen major improvements on a nearly daily basis in the first weeks.

And if the screen constantly turns off (if it does this), that's another annoyance.

You can activate the developer settings of the phone and disable the screen timeout.

My main gripe with a mobile phone controller is ...

Yes, you are absolutely correct.
The screen timeout just a tiny detail that someone CAN do something about.

I did implement, that you can trigger the the camera from your Android Smartwatch.

I'm thinking of having my phone in the pocket.
The phone feeding LTC into the audio recorder on my shoulder rig and the camera.
Somehow rig the REC button on the right handle of my shoulder rig (currently LANC for the BMPCC)
to the phone and have my app send the start/stop(/playback) -command via Bluetooth.

There are "find my phone" keychain attachments that have a single button to take a selfie.
I could try to register for that intent and tell Android that my app is the preferred one to handle it
(so no chooser appears on the screen).... just a though at this point.

You can nor enter their pairing code on the these and there is no common protocol. It's Blackmagic specific.

The protocol description is public.
That's how I was able to to write the Bluetooth Android app.
The Bluetooth Low Energy layer still requires pairing and the camera won't accept 0000.
It needs the remote to send the random code that is displayed on the camera screen.
So whatever remote needs a user friendly way to enter that code.

It needs the remote to send the random code that is displayed on the camera screen.
So whatever remote needs a user friendly way to enter that code.

So maybe you could connect the Bluetooth device to a computer to input the necessary code. Or the device could have a small screen. It makes the device slightly more complex, but still should be doable.

I already developed that for Smartwatches and will look into cheap selfie stick remotes.
I'm also already working on the starting an entire Multicam recording (nearly in sync) with a single button in the app.

The protocol description is public.
That's how I was able to to write the Bluetooth Android app.
The Bluetooth Low Energy layer still requires pairing and the camera won't accept 0000.
It needs the remote to send the random code that is displayed on the camera screen.
So whatever remote needs a user friendly way to enter that code.

Given that the protocol is Blackmagic specific, is it really necessary to have this layer of security? Why not just allow for bluetooth device selection from the camera without security check. If there are multiple camera operators within bluetooth range, hopefully they can coordinate and not both try to link to the same device...
Forcing the device to have a monitor limits the design and pushes up the cost

I can't believe Blackmagic hasn't either developed their own controller or partnered with someone to do it. Given that the Pocket 4K is selling like hot cakes, and they knew it would based on pre-orders and the success of the original pocket, having this cam launch without a working remote is crazy.

That security check is basic Bluetooth functionality.
Your bluetooth speaker, car stereo, wireless mouse,.. all do the same.
It has just become an accepted thing to have 0000 as a pairing code and a button
that must be pushed to allow a pairing to happen.

The service is in the camera.
The button is a client and can connect to as many camera as it can handle.
However without a screen I see no way to select what camera to connect to.

The devices use a standard protocol, the one I posted above allows many functions. But it's up to blackmagic to build in support for it. Firmware update.

You can turn the screen on permanently on android. It's in settings under display timeout, or in developer options after you enable that. However, you need a simple way to close the screen to save battery and open it again.

As far as finding space on the rig. You could use a $39 prepaid 3 inch phone, or iPod touch, and have an app with big buttons and controls.

HDMI CEC can pass a lot more than start and stop with it. It maps a remote, so may offer opportunity for up and down sets of controls by mimicking the butynd and directional pads on remotes.


However, with all these things BM.needs to build in support into firmware. This means setup menues to attach any hdmi or BT con role to a function. Could I suggest every mrnua function has options for mapping to hi cec and Bluetooth and USB at one time, so whatever yi plug in works. You define the key/control for a vanees control or menu function, and the vslye or rate of change. You also have the ability to save the configuration for each and to load in the configuration. That such devices can also download a configuration for that camera. So, you buy a device, and the camera during setup asks if would you like to load tje standard configuration for that camera, one of the other configurations if more then one on.the device, or set it up yourself, simple. The camera saves the configurations to it's memory, so you don't have to access them through BT again. Am I going too fast?

Yes, that part of the comment was for people wanting to Mount a phone on their rig, and was a prepaid 3 inch phone with things else turned off (their apps for that). The big buttons were to compensate for small screen size. Yes, the battery life can last fur several or more hours with replaceable batteries. Yes, physical controls is better, bit people are talking about more than an on off switch so my little remote is perhaps better functionality.

Sticking with mounted use situations. With the little remote you get a multidirectional sliding controller pad, useful for focus and zoom, 5 buttons to turn things on and off, or select between different things the sliding pad controls (another idea for a firmware update basic scripting/macro) like focus, zoom, aperture, shutter, gain, iso, colours. The buttons could be assigned to be up and down on multiple functions. My other has more buttons, and you undoubtedly could probably find a dual directional control pad version with press firing switch on them. And maybe more buttons at the same time. However, if BM could do a filming version, that would be more useful. As then you. An customise placement hand for use and use thumb wheels and rocker switches.

I agree, both. Live studio, live events filming, doco requires a bit of this. You can't just expect to maintain focus by maintaining distance doing doco and whatever helps male it easier and quicker. The pocket needs a lot of update, even to make as a descent stills camera with some non nonsense additional functionality. My local camera shop is staffed by industry guys, and they had the old pocket there shortly, but won't touch the 4k. They can't really sell enough of them, as they are not sellable to camera enthusiasts. But, if the had the features some would buy, but people would look down on the resolution is stills. So, a 6-8k (in coming future when cameras are normally that stills resolution) sensor version delivering 4k video would be sellable. 6k you can down scale, 8k you can use a quad Bayer sensor for 4k video, so you are using similar processing platform as now, for minimal redesign and cost increases.

Wrong thread. This is about physical, Bluetooth remote controls.

Yes, marketing. Doesn't need to be less capable, but more. Gives them the extra sales and money to give better products, and do own sensors. The mini should be 16-17 stops with a sensor refresh

But again, the camera could do with updates to make physical controls easier, and this other stuff.

Wrong thread. This is about physical, Bluetooth remote controls.

But again, the camera could do with updates to make physical controls easier, and this other stuff.

I agree, both. Live studio, live events filming, doco requires a bit of this. You can't just expect to maintain focus by maintaining distance doing doco and whatever helps male it easier and quicker. The pocket needs a lot of update

Sticking with mounted use situations. With the little remote you get a multidirectional sliding controller pad, useful for focus and zoom, 5 buttons to turn things on and off, or select between different things the sliding pad controls (another idea for a firmware update basic scripting/macro) like focus, zoom, aperture, shutter, gain, iso, colours. The buttons could be assigned to be up and down on multiple functions. My other has more buttons, and you undoubtedly could probably find a dual directional control pad version with press firing switch on them. And maybe more buttons at the same time.

So what’s the Deal? Is there no easy way to code a cheap remote? It’d be great to have a start stop button. And maybe the 3 custom function buttons too that are already mapped.then you could turn peaking on off easily etc

I’ve been investigating this myself for the past week or so.

I recently got my Nucleus Nano and have been trying to figure out how I can take advantage of the start/stop functionality built into that system.

My plan is to build a LANC/Bluetooth device that will read in LANC commands and broadcast them over Bluetooth to the camera.

To do this I’m planning to use a really nifty little device called an ESP-32, and for those unfamiliar it’s a tiny microcontroller with both Bluetooth and WiFi capability. It’s small, doesn’t use a ton of power and is very cheap!



Now I haven’t gotten very far with it yet, however I have been able to scan and see the pocket camera and attempt to connect. But that is where progress has come to a halt…. Establishing connection needs to be done ( as stated in the posts above ) using a pairing code and while that’s not necessarily a huge hurdle, I haven’t gotten the two to connect yet to a point where the camera will show the code on the back of its screen.




Blackmagic does document this in their Developer SDK, but the libraries for this ESP-32 are relatively new and example applications like this are very few in number so I haven’t been able to work off of anything. Lot's of samples where making the ESP-32 acts a server for smartphone client, but really hard to find example where the ESP-32 is the client and its connecting to a server device ( the camera in this case )



If any developers are out there with some advice or suggestions on how I can approach this next, that would be very appreciated!

And hopefully nobody treats you like the other guy was in that other thread.

Good stuff Csaba. You could look at the $5 camera controller/vr remote I mentioned also.

Just noticed the ronin-S has bluetooth....

UPDATE. It now connects!

After some hours of fiddling with some examples, found a way to connect and do keyparing. After keypairing the device now automatically connects. Had to use my keyboard on my PC to enter the code via serial, but that’s a minor hurdle that can be addressed later.

Next Steps:
-Start/Stop recording on the camera from the ESP-32
-Read LANC Command from Nucleus Nano

Looking for some help understanding the Camera Control Protocol, those who developed IOS/Android apps if you can contact me via PM I’d like to discuss how I will implement the necessary camera control functions.

The developer documentation is actually fairly good and explains all things that LANC knows about fairly well.

Following! Interesting project.

If you need help in coding let me know. I'm busy with the SDI protocol found on the Ursa cameras, and have a lot of experience with protocols and conversions from 1 to a different protocol.

UPDATE. Recording works!

Was programmed to start recording and record for 5 seconds.

Also tried a few other things like changing ISO, etc... and they worked so should be able to do everything the phone apps do.

The button I press resets the micro controller so that delay is both the micro controller initializing and connecting to the camera. I would imagine delay would be quite minimal in an actual button press function.

Stay tuned.

Congrats!

And hopefully nobody treats you like the other guy was in that other thread.

Good stuff Csaba. You could look at the $5 camera controller/vr remote I mentioned also.

You failed to mention that Csaba is attempting something that is within the bounds of reason..

Shush!, and see how collaboration really works, rather than just distributing disruption. If you really understood, you would be more reasonable and understand what is "within..reason".

Great work Csaba.

Just as I was coming to post, I noticed AI also cottoned onto my older idea of a cheap camera controller. Does the camera protocol support any of these? The previous one gives a fair bit of control.

Thanks again.

Congratulations, Csaba! It’s like liftoff of an unmanned rocket. When the timing is programmable to near instantaneous, you’ll have a neat product.


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UPDATE. Recording works!

...

Stay tuned.

Nice work. Congrats!

Congratulations, Csaba! It’s like liftoff of an unmanned rocket. When the timing is programmable to near instantaneous, you’ll have a neat product.


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And hopefully nobody treats you like the other guy was in that other thread.

Good stuff Csaba. You could look at the $5 camera controller/vr remote I mentioned also.

You failed to mention that Csaba is attempting something that is within the bounds of reason..

What have you actually done?

Unpleasantly coming trampling into lots of threads to object with strange arguments, just noise. Being in charge of projects is not collaboration it's being in charge, as you are trying to do to others. If an engineer is not good, they can stick them in administration, and get on with it. Too much "practical" is no good to coming up with new design, you should know that, this is engineering which is straightforward practical or new elaborate design.

Now, see what Csaba is doing and how people are supporting him appropriately, as he explores.

Think about it?

Amazing!!! Where do I send the money?

Congratulations, Csaba! It’s like liftoff of an unmanned rocket. When the timing is programmable to near instantaneous, you’ll have a neat product.


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Is the button built into the ESP-32? Would is be easy to add another button on slightly longer wire?

What I would try and do is put the button or whole esp-32 in one of these wooden handles. Problem then is power. I guess it's 5v usb?

Is the button built into the ESP-32? Would is be easy to add another button on slightly longer wire?

What I would try and do is put the button or whole esp-32 in one of these wooden handles. Problem then is power. I guess it's 5v usb?

This is where I think we reach phase 2 of a project like this.

My main goal was to just have this working with my Nucleus Nano, but I can certainly see this used in many other ways and I think it would be selfish and wasteful If I couldn’t have others using a system like this.

I still need to further tweak the code, but it’s otherwise fully functional and can access all the same camera settings that are available on the mobile apps.

This is at a point where I’d be more than happy to collaborate and work with the community to develop this further. To create a more usable end product.

I know SmallRig have a codesign program I may pursue with further inquiry, maybe they’d be willing to create handle and do manufacturing, I can provide my code.

Otherwise If anyone other there has some industrial design background and would like to work through creating an end product, please feel free to reach out.

One needs to start considering how users would use something like this, so it can influence design decisions.

Do we include a small oled display and input controls for configuring Bluetooth and camera control? Or no physical input/display at all and use additional WiFi functionality of the chip to let users configure through a smartphone interface?

What is the best form factor? Build it into handle with a rechargeable battery? Make it a small box with simple power input and button?

How many programmable buttons do we include? Include a scroll dial for incrementing camera settings? ( aperture, shutter, ISO, etc….)

Lots of possible answers, would love to hear people's thoughts about a tool like this.

Any idea how to do the pairing?
Since we already have Bluetooth, maybe allow a cellphone-management-app for the LANC-adapter to provide display and keyboard for this process.

What does the camera do if our side reports to not have input and output controls during the Bluetooth pairing process and to only support the Just Works pairing method?

I would go with this board:
https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/WEMOS-LOLIN32-V1-0-0-wifi-bluetooth-board-based-ESP-32-4MB-FLASH/32808551116.html

Lolin32 board has a 3,7V Li-ion input with USB charger on board. Able to charge the Li-ion. Also instead of a flat pack li-ion you could use 18650 Li-ion battery to power it.

The Lolin32 takes about 78mA per hour without LED's or displays.
So with a 1000mAh pack. You could run 10+ hours easily on 1 charge. And with a 18650 3000mAh battery 38 hours on 1 charge.

User interface could be done on a small Oled screen as done with the nucleous.. But entering the numbers can be a challenge. But ESP32 is very good in hosting websites. So why not make a mode that IF RECords is held while turning it on. The Wifi starts in host mode. You connect your phones wifi on it and enter a default IP address. Then you can there connect to the camera. Hit the number combination of the BMPCC and hit save. The Wifi is turned off, and your BT connection stays online to the camera..

PM me if you want more info, I have programming and electronic design experience.

1. Pair via a smartphone app. Any on-device interface will be painful to use, and only serve to make the device larger and more expensive.

2. I encourage you to stick with one simple idea through to reality before trying to make everyone happy. Do one thing and do it well. Make the add-on for the Nucleus Nano first, and THEN branch out to something more generic.

1. Pair via a smartphone app. Any on-device interface will be painful to use, and only serve to make the device larger and more expensive.

I would go for the Webpage interface. Not an app. Because an app would require knowlage how to write app's, Make an app for android and iPhone, Get trough appl's app certification. Keep updates on your app. Because i have a few app's on my iphone that are not updated anymore by the vendor, rendering them useless as Apple just uninstalls them due to not supported anymore.

This device can serve as a Wifi AP and server a simple webpage. Why not use that system. Because then every device that can log on to a Wifi Ap and is able to open a webpage in a browser would be compatible with this device. No special app's, no real hardware specifications needed.. and will even work with laptop's and macbooks in the field if needed.

I would keep it simple get it shipping asap. Then maybe make a more fancy one later