What happened to blackmagic raw for Pocket 4k?

It's been months and nothing's happened. Are we being deceived about this? They tricked us again like they did on Ursa turret?

I'd prefer it "right" rather than "right now". Let them get it right. It takes times to develop and test software. Or would you prefer it to release today and have a ton of errors? Patience is a virtue. And I want Blackmagic raw on the P4k, too, but let them get the bugs out.

It's been months and nothing's happened. Are we being deceived about this? They tricked us again like they did on Ursa turret?

How do you know "nothing's happened"?
I'd leave any determination of progress to the people doing the development.

Words like "deceived" and "tricked" are pretty inappropriate as well.
This is a helpful, technical forum - not a tabloid.

The BMPCC4K is the camera the Blackmagic Production Camera was supposed to be. Everything that was promised with the production camera was offered with this new pocket camera. I sold my production camera to get the pocket. With blackmagic, you have to give them time and realize sometimes they say things that are very ambitious and they sometimes cant deliver because they are not a massive company like RED yet. They are offering products at ridiculous prices that make them undeniably attractive. They have a lot of bugs and quality tests to pass. I personally believe the raw update is going to include bug fixes for other issues people are having with their cameras. So far I havent experienced those, other than the battery life being poor. If BRAW never came to the pocket...we still cant complain because no other camera company is offering this much stuff for $1299. I hope we get the update within the next month, but if it never came....I'm still satisfied. Let's be patient, a lot of people still dont have the cameras in their hands yet.

I don't think I use the wrong term.I bought the Ursa camera with the dream of using it for many years.I paid $ 7000 in Turkey to this camera.However, the company did not keep its promise.

It's coming.

Grant is already on record saying braw was part of the design of P4K.

They're also on record that it's the current project that they're working on.

I don't think I use the wrong term.I bought the Ursa camera with the dream of using it for many years.I paid $ 7000 in Turkey to this camera.However, the company did not keep its promise.

I agree with you, I think BMD mis-handled the interchangeable turret and global shutter promises in the past, but I don't think they will with the Pocket 4K, let me explain to you why I think so:

I think the Pocket 4K is quite obviously going to be BMD's most popular selling camera. I think BMD has a high vested interest in making BMRaw as popular as possible of a format. They will need a receptive user base that is far greater than what the Ursa Mini Pro customers can provide. The best way for them to get as many people to use BMRaw as quickly as possible is to put it into the hands of Pocket 4K users, and since they have already officially announced that the Pocket 4K will get BMRaw, it stands to reason that they already know that they can implement it into that camera.

I think we're probably looking at a January release for the Pocket, after the holiday craziness subsides a bit, and maybe after the Pocket 4K sales show some signs of slowing down. The release of a FW update with BMRaw will re-invigorate those sales right up.

It's coming.

Grant is already on record saying braw was part of the design of P4K.

They're also on record that it's the current project that they're working on.

Granty said the same thing in Ursa. We waited months for the turret to come.We're tired of checking Blackmagic's website to see if there's a new update every day.
I hope it's different this time.

When the BRaw update is available, it will get announced here, so no need to check BM Support
Cheers

I'm waiting too, just like everyone else. Perhaps, to appease people's concerns or eager anticipation, BM could release an update on the progress. Maybe let us know that it's almost done but there are some problems that need to be addressed.

The usual approach of silence during the development stages does nothing more than drive people nuts. I myself would much rather they have kept it all in the dark until it's ready to be released. Same goes for hardware. Why announce and show off a new device when it's months (or years) away from even being available.

DJI used to do that all the time. They'd show off their new UAV or something and then start taking preorders. Then they'd get overrun on pre-orders that shipping dates turned from weeks to months. Some people were waiting a year from when they first ordered.

So BMD, how about a quick update on the progress? No concrete dates needed just a confirmation on what's working, what isn't, stuff like that. It might calm the crowds.

I'm waiting too, just like everyone else. Perhaps, to appease people's concerns or eager anticipation, BM could release an update on the progress. Maybe let us know that it's almost done but there are some problems that need to be addressed.

The problem with that approach is that there's really no way to predict what new issues might crop up, even when you are in the final stages of QA and you find you need to go back and do a major reworking of your code. Giving people a sense of false hope always backfires, so radio silence is actually an effective policy. They've announced it, and it'll be ready when it's ready, whether that's soon or nine months from now.

IWhy announce and show off a new device when it's months (or years) away from even being available.

Every company does this. Ever hear of NAB? Lots of announcements, most typically "available later this year".

BMD has said they are bringing Blackmagic raw to the P4k. If they announced it available tomorrow and it was full of bugs? People would flip out.

Give them time to get it right, not just "right now".

BMD has said they are bringing Blackmagic raw to the P4k. If they announced it available tomorrow and it was full of bugs? People would flip out.

Give them time to get it right, not just "right now".

I didn't say release it now, I said to communicate with us. Silence is annoying.

I'm seeing a behaviour lately that's disturbing and that's 'ghosting'. Both companies dealing with their clients and people with other people. I had a client book me a week ago. She didn't pay the deposit and didn't accept the calendar invite. I sent her three emails and left a voicemail message asking if she still wanted to keep her booking as others waiting could take her spot. ZERO response even though I could see she opened the emails. And she was a VP of sales!!!! Ignoring people is never acceptable, ignoring customers is worse.

Every company does this. Ever hear of NAB? Lots of announcements, most typically "available later this year".

Just because every company does this doesn't mean it's right or acceptable. Be a different kind of company. Pave the way, the way it should be.

Something that has been lacking in business for many years is simple ethics.

*snip*

They have communicated. If you think you can do better, then why not start your own camera production company and do better?

Blackmagic official statements

Craig Hefferman (BMD Technical Sales Director EMEA)

In this IBC 2018 interview the BMD rep Craig Hefferman says that B-RAW will be out first for UMP, then P4k and then they will look into the other cameras of their cinema line, watch at 4:16

And here too:

Tim Schumann (BMD Product Specialist) wrote:

It would be nice to know as soon as possible if it's even technically possible to get BRAW into URSA Mini 4.6k. If not, I will be swapping my UM to URSA Mini Pro, I guess.

We hope so. Please bear with us. We have not forgotten you.

As we said at IBC, we are working on finishing the general release for the Mini Pro. Pocket 4K will be next and we will also look at what other cameras we can get it into.

The good news for the URSA Mini 4.6K is the sensor profiling work is already done.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=79232&start=50#p445062

Tony Rivera (BMD Community Manager) wrote:

As Grant stated in the video most have watched, Blackmagic RAW is currently available for the URSA Mini Pro in beta release and also planned to be made available for the Pocket Cinema Camera 4K down the line. Once those are implemented we will look at the possibility of rolling Blackmagic RAW to other Blackmagic Cameras. Any updates would be released on the support page of our website.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=79208&start=150#p440403

The hope is to bring this to other cameras but at this point in time, we're focused on the beta for the URSA Mini Pro and then the Pocket Cinema Camera 4K.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=79208&start=200#p440432

And finally the big boss himself, Grant Petty says at 27:15:

I didn't say release it now, I said to communicate with us. Silence is annoying.

You want to see some aggravated people? Head on over to the Fusion part of this forum!

I think if one wants to understand Blackmagic's M.O., they need to look at Apple. I see so many similarities between the two companies, and it's quite obvious to me that Grant Petty looks up to the late Steve Jobs as an inspiration. Maybe that's why I like Blackmagic so much, but it also does make them a bit tricky to deal with from a customer's perspective.

Apple announced that they were working on a new Mac Pro in early 2017, since then nothing. No time frame for the release, no info on what CPU the new Mac Pro will use, what GPU, and on. Compared to Apple, Blackmagic is far more communicative.

At any rate, as much as from a customer's POV I agree with your sentiment, I have to side with Blackmagic here and say there is nothing unethical about their behavior. They're not going back on their word, they don't owe anyone any information, timeline, or explanation for the delay. BMRaw is not something that was promised with the Pocket 4K or any other camera. It's a bonus feature, and extra bell and whistle that they're gifting us at no cost, and for them to ask for patience until they get it right is the least that we, as customers, can offer in return.

Lastly, I want to remind everyone that BMRaw is not a necessary component to make our cameras work properly. We can already shoot everything we need and work with the resulting footage. A couple of months ago nobody questioned the CDNG and ProRes workflow. Nothing has changed, those are still valid formats for professional work. As a matter of fact, once BMRaw is freely available, some people might conclude that they would rather shoot in CDNG or ProRes anyway!

Yes, BM Raw is a new tool, not a fix for something that does not work. One day you will wake up and open this web site up, and there it is, the new FW for the Pocket 4K with BRaw...
Cheers

Just like ghosting is becoming prevalent, so is crucifying people for having an opinion.

Why do I even bother.....

Checking out.

The real point is why buy a camera now when its not doing what you want now. Theres tons of cameras out there . Pick one for what it does now , not some possible future ability. And I think your ghosting description is a false equivalency. Vp of sales never responded to you, BM is shipping cameras that do what they originally said they would do.

Just like ghosting is becoming prevalent, so is crucifying people for having an opinion.

Why do I even bother.....

Checking out.

No one is crucifying you - you offered an opinion ("BMD is ghosting"), you were offered proof otherwise - lots of information directly from BMD, including direct and personal quotes from BMD employees on this forum, which is rare as far as I know from most companies.

If you are offended by my comment about "start your won company", then I apologize if it came across as too negative. But *in my opinion*, there's not much point in saying "a company SHOULD do this" - shoulda, woulda, coulda just doesn't help anything. So yes, I tend to call on people that talk about what "should" happen and say, "Ok - you think this should happen, so make it happen yourself". It's not mean to offend, it's meant to be a call to action - "shoulda, woulda, coulda" isn't really helpful.

A couple of months ago nobody questioned the CDNG and ProRes workflow.

Why do you think Blackmagic has made Blackmagic raw because they didn’t like how cinema dng worked. Grant said it himself they wanted to make a raw codec that was like a video file and the controls of a raw codec. They called CDMG slow and not optimized. Even adobe the company who created this has problems with it. Every other raw codec out there is better than CDNG in a lot of ways. The only way for me to use the compressed version of the codec is through resolve. BM saw this and this is their fix. So yes a lot of people saw that CDNG is not a great codec. And everyone who used BM Raw on their UMP said it’s like they have a new camera. And that’s why I think they added a new iso level to the UMP because of BM Raw

This is no bells and whistle, no extra features. They wanted to make a raw codec that’s industry standard in order for them to do this they have to make it available to other cameras just not the UMP

In the meantime I'd just add how good the new image is in ProRes HQ.
Amazingly flexible in post.
No real interest/need in RAW from a practical, day to day prodcution standopint on our end.

It's been months and nothing's happened. Are we being deceived about this?

Months?
Braw is officially out for Ursa Mini Pro only from 48 days, since, from 14 November 2018.... not months... not two months
Beta etc not counting, we talk about Official free bugs release...
We are here to talk about working tools, not toy to play.... braw must be tuned per sensor, is not a simple video codec, need time to be optimized.
If you not have time to wait, buy another different camera and sell your pocket4k, forum is full of people that desire that camera more than a sailor desire a woman after six months of sailing .


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... forum is full of people that desire that camera more than a sailor desire a woman after six months of sailing

I live in a naval town full of Canadian and foreign sailors. So that’s the best explanation I’ve heard that explains why I still haven’t received my camera! Thanks for your insight, Carlo.


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It's been months and nothing's happened. Are we being deceived about this?

Months?
Braw is officially out for Ursa Mini Pro only from 48 days, since, from 14 November 2018.... not months... not two months
Beta etc not counting, we talk about Official free bugs release...
We are here to talk about working tools, not toy to play.... braw must be tuned per sensor, is not a simple video codec, need time to be optimized.
If you not have time to wait, buy another different camera and sell your pocket4k, forum is full of people that desire that camera more than a sailor desire a woman after six months of sailing .


Grant Petty announced Blackmagic in 14 September and they said that it would be applied to 4k. I mean they announced months ago.

And I can say that for crazy sailors as a person who lives in Istanbul. Istanbul is a port city. You can find 4k in stores of Istanbul. So you can drive your ships to Istanbul

... forum is full of people that desire that camera more than a sailor desire a woman after six months of sailing

I live in a naval town full of Canadian and foreign sailors. So that’s the best explanation I’ve heard that explains why I still haven’t received my camera! Thanks for your insight, Carlo.


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I was born and live near Genoa, once of bigger harbour of Italy, and my father was a sailor


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... forum is full of people that desire that camera more than a sailor desire a woman after six months of sailing

I was born and live near Genoa, once of bigger harbour of Italy, and my father was a sailor

I’m glad that BMD wasn’t making Pocket cameras when your dad was a sailor!


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rick.lang wrote:

I’m glad that BMD wasn’t making Pocket cameras when your dad was a sailor!

We would have had little Pocket cameras running around instead of Carlo.
Wait a minute, we do have little Pocket cameras running around, I have one.
Who's your daddy?

As for BRAW "Good things come to those who wait"
Look at some of the famous actors, they started off as waiters.

I purchased the Bmp4k for many reasons, Braw was the top reason for not choosing a fuji or a sony. because if offers the capabilities to work higher end on laptops and desktops that are not monster systems.

I can live with most of the cameras deficiencies but braw will take this camera to higher levels.


Ricardo Marty

Ricardo, BRaw is coming to the Pocket 4K. It takes time to fine tune, test and change the software as required, before it is released. BM does not give time tables, or an estimated release date. But BM has stated is it being developed to work on the Pocket 4K, which already has the required color science version in place. So one morning you will wake up, log in to this board, and the “Big” announcement will be here, “BRaw for the Pocket 4K is available for download...”. Coming to a camera near you soon...
Cheers

Ricardo, BRaw is coming to the Pocket 4K. It takes time to fine tune, test and change the software as required, before it is released. BM does not give time tables, or an estimated release date. But BM has stated is it being developed to work on the Pocket 4K, which already has the required color science version in place. So one morning you will wake up, log in to this board, and the “Big” announcement will be here, “BRaw for the Pocket 4K is available for download...”. Coming to a camera near you soon...
Cheers

everyday I log on to check and see. But my guess is it might be out on January 14th. Because sept14 is when hey released it and then nov 14th is when they finalized it. So I'm guessing every two months on the 14th. But I could be wrong lol

I purchased the Bmp4k for many reasons, Braw was the top reason for not choosing a fuji or a sony. because if offers the capabilities to work higher end on laptops and desktops that are not monster systems.
I can live with most of the cameras deficiencies but braw will take this camera to higher levels.
Ricardo Marty

But Sony and Fuji deliver to you a 8bit internal recording only, you need external recorder to have a 10 signal, Pocket4k deliver to you ever 10bit 4:2:2 and internal raw recording (on cf) or external on ssd right now.
I know, dng raw are quite heavy to edit, on laptop, but on desktop... i edit 4.6k raw on a 2013 motherboard with i7 4950x, 32gb of ram and dual gtx 980ti strix from a simple double mechanical disk array.
the real big deal of braw are ability to :
- use less space with better quality
- less bandwitch asking, that mean you can record on a simple sd a raw where dng need expansive CF or ssd
- better debayer then dng (i tried on UMP and there are some difference about final result of dng vs braw)
- less resource on laptop (here you are right)

i think all people in this forum wait for braw for pocket...
but
allow me to do a joke...
when blackmagic design will go out with braw on pocket4k, all other people's brands must change work... who will want to buy another camera at 3-4 times prices without raw, prores, braw, resolve license, and dual iso so clean?

Just shoot ProRes for now, it still looks better than any 8 bit file out of other systems. If you read the other threads on this forum where BM is getting ripped for essentially announcing the Pocket 4K camera too soon and not being able to fill orders, people bitching about the battery door and already starting lists of requests for auto focus, battery grips, etc etc you can understand why they might be a bit gun shy about releasing or announcing even a beta version of Braw on the PCC4K.

The Camera has apparently been more of a success than they even anticipated. For the quarter they have been manufacturing and shipping thousands of cameras a week and are still behind.

Ricardo Marty

i put my hand on a pocket4k for few hours two days ago, i did some shooting, i did some stress test, the camera that i used had only a big problem... it's addictive... when you try it you never go back to another common dslr or mirrorless...
also against a UrsaMiniPro (i will do some more accurate test) could be not a B camera, but a great sister for its advantage of weight, agility and more.
It's a greatest success for bmd... and for everyone talk about battery door and some other weakness.. i could annoying you with many problems findid about using first redOne batch, first Alexa batch... and were not a low cost 1000$ cameras, but many more, but suffer of youngness' problems that address later with firmware and some hardware changment.
it's a matter of luck

I think BMD have a healthy paranoia. Companies like Panasonic can release cameras with broken autofocus and that seems okay. BMD has any wrinkles and the internet goes insane.

Or pre product testing.

I hear the backlog was Feb or more before Christmas. It was obvious it was going be a big initial seller, as long as it is good, as their are many fashion victims. I'm more practical. I said years back, a minimum of Alexa level performance, which it doesn't have, but the Mini pro is basically aimed at this. However, it is a minimum and technology has moved on, so I'm looking to the next generation of BM product.

Sony is days away from announcing their 8k consumer range (including camcorder likely with a newer technology 8k sensor as good as the 4k pocket) at a pre Ces event.

BTW, because of the low noise levels on the pocket 4k, I think Braw will be better on the pocket.

Actually, is there going be braw on the pocket and micro's. Micro studio was supposed to have a raw mode, what is that?

No Wayne, the Micro Studio is a “streaming” live production camera only, and it does not record, or have a Film Log or Raw capability. It just sends a very nicely saturated Rec709 signal to an Video switcher, but can be sued with an external recorder. I would be nice if the new Extended Video mode could be added to it, so it’s signal would be a closer match to the Ursa Broadcast.

The Pocket 4K is slated to get BRaw, but doubtful the original Pocket or Micro Cinema Cameras will, given their small video processors, but only BMD know this answer, maybe
Cheers

Well thanks, but they did announce raw for studio I believe. You do realise years ago some bright spark realised you could pack Bayer pixels into 4:x:x data steams, and its been done.

The micro studio 4k can output an unbayered raw stream via sdi, there is a developers manual on the support site on how to capture it with an external recorder as a raw file but as far as I know no one has made much use of the feature (or if they did they’re keeping it quiet)