old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

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lee4ever

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old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostTue Jan 08, 2019 10:38 pm

Hello to everyone!
i bought the BMPCC and I have to say it's a great camera. Yes, it is not perfect (microphone, no sensor calibrate via the menu...), as any other camera is not perfect. BUT as far as "Cinema" is concerned, it is the best small Cinema camera ever developed. The sensor takes real cinematic pictures, for me it is better than the new BMPCC4k. But what's missing is 60fps, that's what many wish for with this small good camera. According to sensor speculations this is possible and also the sensor heating changes minimally. So my question to BM is, why don't they unlock the 60 FPS in the firmware? From a technical point of view, it is possible, both on the software and hardware side, as you have shown with the BMMCC, where the same sensor is also installed.

I hope this contribution will be published and look forward to objective and honest discussion.

(sorry for my not good English, I hope it is understandable)
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Denny Smith

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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostWed Jan 09, 2019 7:00 am

Doing 60FPS is more than just the sensor, it also requires more cooling, as the sensor heats up at the faster frame rate, and a bigger, faster video processor is required, of which the Micro Cinema camera has, and it took the larger package size to pull this off.
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lee4ever

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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostWed Jan 09, 2019 10:39 am

Hello Denny,

thank you for the answer.

1. you have checked the specifications of the (CIS1910F) sensor and know that the sensor is heated at 100fps minimum and even less at 60fps? No? then you should investigate this.

To be honest, there would be little or no change in the heat. You can also test this now by checking the heat change at 24/25/30fps and how big the differences are, then you can imagine what it would be like at 50 or 60fps.

2. you are familiar with FPGA technology and know that this is something you can build like IP cores (without additional hardware processors for anything) and that Spartan 6 would certainly do more than 60fps? No? then you should investigate that as well. You also know that BMMCC is only FPGA technology, even most likely with the same FPGA chip? No? then you should also check it out.

And believe me, Spartan 6 is very good!

There might be problems writing on the SD card, but then I would be very happy to use 60fps via HDMI output and record with Video Assist or Atomos Recorder.

Please get more information, then you can perhaps explain me again more exactly, what speaks against more fps.

Thanks!
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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostWed Jan 09, 2019 4:49 pm

No, but mympistmwas based on what BM stared when then original Pocket Camera was released. The Micro Camera was BM’s answer to getting 60fps, and the larger processor and additional cooling allowed them to crank up the sensor’s readout time, to accommodate 60fps. The issue is not so much cranking up the sensor to 60fps, but dealing with the higher data rate 60fps creates (twice the amount used in 30fps), while maintaining their high standard for image IQ. There is more to getting 60fps out of a camera than individual component specifications, the bits need to work together also.
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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostWed Jan 09, 2019 11:51 pm

The BMMCC is cooled differently (fan with heat sink), therefore the size and the fan holes. the BMPCC is cooled differently: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_cooling

I don't think the heat is the problem, but maybe way to write to the SD card in ProRes HQ or RAW. But then BM might be able to adjust the firmware so that the 60fps is only allowed on external recorders via HDMI. Why not? Even with this possibility, many BMPCC owners would be thankful for the Blackmagic once more.
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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostThu Jan 10, 2019 5:17 am

You can't argue your case around here Less, you are not allowed too. There are several doubting Thomases regularly as the majority in most threads for which things must always be what they expect, despite evidence. Now Denny is better at this, and has reason to doubt it, as this topic has co.e up a number of times, and BM put a little video up explain why its not possible (which zi still want to see mind you, because just because they say so in whichever way they was t to do it, it doesn't mean it couldn't be fine another way. For instance I don't care about picture IQ at 50fps, as I mainly would use it in sports, and lit scenes. There are ways to deal with cooling, even liquid baths and heat pipes, and I would change storage to by pass compression processing limitations. So, change the compression routine to more heavily cull or lighter compression/no compression using faster cards/HDMI (no USB 3) or new compression routine. Whatever gets the job practically done on a good moral way.

Some people go blob at the thought of change, and rather help, will actively hinder others from doing the RIGHT thing. Their own ideas are usually dumb foundingly ignorant and constricted so you wonder how they get employment at all, then you realise they do stuff that doesn't require a real lot of
creativity in coming up with high class new practically creative solutions. Seems most technical forums have a handful of them out of thousands, that do more negativity than everybody else combined in most threads. Its a pretty aspie like trait to know something as certain, but not to see past it.

I think that if you wanted you could approach BM to work on it under their guidance, as they don't want people to fry they own cameras.
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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostThu Jan 10, 2019 4:43 pm

My wish is based on the technical possibility of the built-in technology in the BMPCC. But slowly it seems to me that Sony aren't the only ones who have similar policies (don't unlock the possibilities of the previous ones to sell the next upcoming version with desired features...). It is a pity for a great camera that is still used and loved to give up.

http://www.fairchildimaging.com/files/d ... 910f_0.pdf
"Power consumption 0.8W with dual ADC channels operating at 100 fps"

With less than 1W you can fry sausage on pocket? ;)
Last edited by lee4ever on Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostThu Jan 10, 2019 5:14 pm

The bottom line is, if you want 60fps on the original Pocket camera sensor, get the Micro Cinema Camera :!: End of story. That is what I did. ;)
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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostThu Jan 10, 2019 5:27 pm

Or even simpler, I kept the pocket and BM fulfills us the wish and unlock 50/60fps. I promise, if it gets too hot (which I doubt), I will return to old firmware with max. 30fps. I promise ;) So I like to be the tester.
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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostFri Jan 11, 2019 12:04 am

This is the same version of the sensor in the original pocket? I hate to think people were lieing to us about it overheating at higher frame rates. I should learn not to just trust what engineers say. Sure, that is probably going lower image quality at high speeds, but still useful to me.

What about the rest of the system board, how hot does the FPGA and memory get? I literally suggested they use a normal prores datarate, or lower mode, or uncompressed raw, stretched across fullhd p50 to keep FPGA energy towards normal. Man, I want to see that video explaining why this isn't possible. I wanted to call anything out, but had been sick a lot. They should have put a detachable display on the micro and a 2.6k sensor, and it would have been OK. Man, they could have mounted a 45 degree high reflection first surface mirror and mounted the sensor st the top of the case so that the heatsink came out of the top, if they were worried about heat, and do a similar trick for the fpga and made the micro thinner. But that stuff doesn't occur to people.

I still say, contact them and volunteer Lee, be a handy little hobby project for you. Don't worry about what was said, a micro is not the same convenience as a pocket.
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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostFri Jan 11, 2019 2:06 am

i think if people were crying digitally, no one here from BM would contact us ud give us a detailed answer or come towards us and release an unofficial firmware with 50 or 60fps, with the hint that they don't take any guarantee. :( Too bad, but I still hope.
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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostFri Jan 11, 2019 5:32 am

I say, if you want to see it, contact them privately. Otherwise it probably won't happen.

BM delayed fixes to introduce a common firmware base, only to quickly stop all development after that. I say those people deserve a longterm update to fix any problems and at least do highest quality 2kp50/solution (closely compatible with 48 and 24fps frame rates) even if 2.35:1 resolution. They could adjust compression to get similar thermal envelope. Also a 2kp100 mode with lower quality, and whatever uncompressed recording, raw over HDMI packing, braw even, and wireless USB functionality for external controls and monitoring from a phone (using a WiFi card/USB dongle you can speed up transfer, and do backup on compressed data during recording or when ever you stop, and also live handheld feeds. They did sell this camera a long time after they stopped updates, plus with their common code base platform they can implement all these functions on most cameras, and a menu reconfigurable function to control function. The code being shared officially is paid for and goes, largely to future sales of other models. It's a great marketing tool of quality of the BM experience.
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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostFri Jan 11, 2019 8:17 am

lee4ever wrote:i think if people were crying digitally, no one here from BM would contact us ud give us a detailed answer or come towards us and release an unofficial firmware with 50 or 60fps, with the hint that they don't take any guarantee. :( Too bad, but I still hope.


If the camera would have been able to do 50/60fps it would have been from day one. BMD has never artificially restricted their cameras. AFAIR at one point they said they are looking into it (60fps support) but it would be unlikely that it will be possible because of hardware restrictions.
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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostFri Jan 11, 2019 5:14 pm

I'd like to find out what that was. It does not understand marketing and business, to suggest BM would have just done it. BM has been more interested in Quality performance than feature function. In those days it was hard to get cards which could handle the normal datarate, so BM wouldn't want to get 60fps working heating up the camera (remember cooling problems at 30fps at times) producing lower quality footage and dropping frames on more cards, with half the compression at the most. But we have faster cards now, and there are some solutions, unless there are bottlenecks, and for us, a little less quality doesn't matter for various uses. So, Lee, has a point.
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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostFri Jan 11, 2019 5:43 pm

Thanks Robert. Wayne and lee4ever, You do know this had been discussed to death when the original Pocket was first released. Do some home work and search for the old discussions. Meanwhile, this discussion has become more wishful thinking Dreamland... :roll:
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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostFri Jan 11, 2019 6:44 pm

I've read some discussions about it and find some arguments that are repeated again and again but not based on the hardware (FPGA/Spartan 6, CIS1910 etc.) technological possibility... Again, at 50 or 60 fps, there will be no noticeable difference in sensor heating. Unless there is something wrong with the codes. It can probably get warmer when writing to SD, so either only 50/60fps via HDMI output or maybe only in ProRes LT.

It's definitely just the will of BM. I am ready to be a tester, even if my BMPCC new, I would test on my own responsibility. If the BMPCC gets too hot and breaks down, I wouldn't send it to warranty, I'll buy a new original (not 4k) BMPCC and I'll order you some online beer and cake. I promise! :)
Last edited by lee4ever on Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostFri Jan 11, 2019 7:20 pm

lee4ever wrote:I've read some discussions about it and find some arguments that are repeated again and again but not based on the hardware (FPGA/Spartan 6, CIS1910 etc.) technological possibility... Again, at 50 or 60 fps, there will be no noticeable difference in sensor heating. Unless there is something wrong with the codes. It can probably get warmer when writing to SD, so either only 50/60fps via HDMI output or maybe only in ProRes LT.

It's definitely just the will of BM. I am ready to be a tester, even if my BMPCC new, I would test on my own responsibility. If the BMPCC gets too hot and breaks down, I wouldn't send it to warranty, I'll buy a new original (not 4k) BMPCC...I promise.

Talking about the hardware and this topic would have been more relevant 5-6 years ago, the camera is no longer being sold and thus no longer supported. Case closed, this conversation was long wrapped up.
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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostFri Jan 11, 2019 7:31 pm

So back then it didn't work because the sensor allegedly gets too hot (according to sensor information the sensor doesn't get much hotter than 30fps, it doesn't go over <0.8w at 100fps).
And today it doesn't work because the camera is no longer supported. :(
Well I understand that, as a customer I can only hope that BM listens to our request and unlocks 50/60fps at our risk. The house won't burn down because of this, it is only <0.8W.
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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostFri Jan 11, 2019 10:26 pm

lee4ever wrote:So back then it didn't work because the sensor allegedly gets too hot (according to sensor information the sensor doesn't get much hotter than 30fps, it doesn't go over <0.8w at 100fps).
And today it doesn't work because the camera is no longer supported. :(
Well I understand that, as a customer I can only hope that BM listens to our request and unlocks 50/60fps at our risk. The house won't burn down because of this, it is only <0.8W.


I also used to share your notion, 0.8W is not alot of power, thus not a lot of relative heat. At least in comparision to other heat generating components like the FPGA, etc...

But you have to treat the heat different with something like an image sensor, heat compromises image quality and you'll get a noisy image with more artifacts ( hot pixels, etc... ) even if it's not going to literally physically burn/melt something.

And trust me it's more than just the heat, everything else in the design needs to support this from the beginning.

Move on, 60fps is not coming to the BMPCC. Buy a BMMCC or the BMPCC 4K if you want 60fps.
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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostFri Jan 11, 2019 10:45 pm

My thoughts exactly, and what I said several pages back. ;)
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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostSat Jan 12, 2019 3:28 am

Denny Smith wrote:Thanks Robert. Wayne and lee4ever, You do know this had been discussed to death when the original Pocket was first released. Do some home work and search for the old discussions. Meanwhile, this discussion has become more wishful thinking Dreamland... :roll:
Cheers


Excuse me Denny. Your nightmarish dreaming of how practically illustrated credible things are not possible is unproductive. I suggest to get a mirror.
Last edited by Wayne Steven on Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostSat Jan 12, 2019 4:12 am

Lee, you notice nothing but excuses about how work can't be fine around here. I wouldn't want to buy any product you guts designed. They don't really listen, but chatter back their 'impossibilities'. You can't design hardware well on such simplistic assumptions and foreshortening if thought, which is self limiting. They also don't consider we would find 50/60/100 extremely useful for various things despite some image degradation, as already mentioned, but are interested in just expressing themselves over us. There is a difference in expressing negative presumption and expressing positive reasonable investigation, one is like being showered with flower pedals instead.

Now, having already says that. Heat in image sensors is important, because of things like thermal induced noise, but better 50-100 fps with it then without. It can also reduce the life and quality of the sensor, particularly if inadequately cooled. I don't think we want to run 100fps all the time, and a 50fps extra wide format image should add much extra heat. But there are a few things you might find out from detailed data sheet/book. Is anything above 30fps really overclocking parts of the system? If so those parts may raise in heat nonlinearily, and the response become more non linear, and get much hotter than the proportional increases in a rising fashion (100fps for seconds or maybe minutes then which us very usable). On top of that, even if it is more proportional (increases in frequency often normally lead to nonlinear heat increases, a lot of things actually run overclocked these days), because of inadequate cooling heat will accumulate more leading to nonlinearities in heat increases from not being able to take away as much heat. Also, the way sensors often work, and I guess this one does, is they are not sampled at the pixel, and the data economically transfered on low heat data lines. Often the charge is transferred across the chip to a ADC circuit, leading to heat build up in the lines. These would be large buildups in small areas for our purposes, as it's not a micron based high speed low energy sensor technology. On top of this, if you are filming bright light, that adds heat into of that 0.8w of the sensor, and if you are in hot dry weather, dry air is a top insulator in preventing heat removal. So, modest expectations the higher the pixel rate you go. That's why 2.35:1 window 50fps, or 48 fps is the most doable, it effective datarate is around that of 40+fps 16:9 frame, and while the lines used at 50fps might be disproportionately hotter, there are less of them to cool.

Plus, it is normal to give upgrades beyond the production life of a product, and not normal to stop them years before the end of production.

So, yes. There are reasonable grounds for looking into this.
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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostSat Jan 12, 2019 5:23 am

While waiting, please read Don Quixote.


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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostSat Jan 12, 2019 5:48 am

Well put a Rick! I am done with this discussion. :roll:
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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostSat Jan 12, 2019 6:08 am

It's against my better judgement to continue the conversation on this thread, it's usually best to just ignore and to let these fade into the void. But it's Friday and I have some time.
Wayne Steven wrote:They also don't consider we would find 50/60/100 extremely useful for various things despite some image degradation, as already mentioned, but are interested in just expressing themselves over us.

This is the most distasteful part of conversations like these. The assumption that the person arguing against is somehow not interested in similar end goals. I think you'll find this more often than not, they have a common interest.

I WOULD LOVE 60fps on the BMPCC or even the BMCC 2.5K while we are it.

A group of us even made the effort years ago to try to take a crack at this ourselves. Consulting with the magic lantern guys. Nearly permanently damaged my camera while documenting the process.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=42384 ( you're even posting the same stuff you said on this thread )
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=42701

We literally went beyond just talking up "hypothetical specs and possibilities." Reading a datasheet is nice, but what do you actually achieve from it in this context? All you think you achieve is rationale for why you think Blackmagic should be able to make it possible, when in reality who cares? you think Blackmagic doesn't understand the capabilities of its products best? You think head of engineering is here reading the forums going "Oh man Wayne is right we should revisit 60fps on our old cams he brought up some great points about our Hardware/FPGA design we can implement to make it happen." :lol:

There is no disputing the spec of the sensor, its the SPEC. But for reasons, most known and some unknown this spec was never fully realized in the end product.
Wayne Steven wrote:Plus, it is normal to give upgrades beyond the production life of a product, and not normal to stop them years before the end of production.

You're right there are lots of examples of this, right off the top of my head Apple is very good at supporting their old hardware with the latest software updates, both IOS and MacOS. Actually lots of Blackmagic products get pretty well treated over time.

Wayne Steven wrote:So, yes. There are reasonable grounds for looking into this.

Reasonable grounds or not, this ship has long sailed.

I write this with best of intent, reading it back parts can sound harsh and believe me it's quite the opposite of what I'm going for. You've been around this forum for sometime and have written lots of detailed and insightful posts, but some conversations like the one we're having are blatantly unnecessary, especially in 2019 c'mon... :D ;)
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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostSat Jan 12, 2019 6:25 am

Thank you, Csaba.


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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostSat Jan 12, 2019 12:16 pm

BMPCC still to be the camera with the best in postproduction filmic look image. It's geat for documentary, short film and many applications at the moment. When I shoot S16mm I have only 2.5min internal load and 10min 400ft ext. So, if it is possible to add 50-60fps for BMPCC and limit it let say at even 2.5min as one plan shooting from practical point of view (I mean shooting film) it will be more than enough. (May be only in ProRess422HQ, better in RAW) One plan (in final production) normally to be within 3-5sec to 60sec. So heating is not a problem at all.

I need may be 50-60fps up to 90-120sec one plan only in case of long slow panoramic plans (if I unserstand that in postproduction it should be from 50-70% of original speed). Now I use optical flow option but in some cases it's not a good working idea.

Not bad idea to BM as investment option in BM brand to maintain (and upgrade) BMPCC as the best Cinema 16mm camera on the market for let say film shool students and not only.
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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostSat Jan 12, 2019 2:06 pm

If 60 and 100 fps on the BMPCC is so important to you and you think its so easily achievable, then find someone to crack the firmware and build you a custom job (ala MagicLantern), because BM isn't going to do it. The original BMPCC is an older product that has been discontinued and replaced. There's no significant incentive for any company to devote resources towards tweaking and tuning a discontinued product. Do you spend this sort of time on Chevy/Ford/Toyota/etc forums and lament that they aren't sending mechanics and engineers to your house to give your 2013 jalopy better fuel economy and more horse power? I get it, innovation and more features are good and desirable, but at a certain point you just have to accept that a product configuration is locked, and improvements will only be available by upgrading to the newer model. That's how businesses stay in business.
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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostSat Jan 12, 2019 4:25 pm

Please run tests.

Test 1.
- Lens cap on it
- film for 30 minutes, at 24fps in CinemaDNG.
- The next day, same room temperature (19-20°), film for 30min, at 30fps in CinemaDNG.

compare the heat of the camera and the last two DNG files from both shots.

Result, you'll see it doesn't rush (FPN/Noise) any more at 30fps than at 24.

Test 2.
- Lens cap on it
- film for 30min, at 24fps in ProRes LT.
- The next day, same room temperature (19-20°), film for 30min at 30fps in ProRes LT.

compare the heat of the camera and last second of both shots.

This makes the camera less warm than in Test 1, there is also a minimal difference in noise, and this is because Test 1 requires more Mbit/s to be written to SD, and the heat generated by other components also affects the sensor.

The sensor is not from Blackmagic's own, but from http://fairchildimaging.com and the manufacturers say quite clearly that the sensor does not get hotter than (<) 0.8W, that is its final limit at 100fps. But I don't think anybody would recommend this 100fps, but 48, 50 or 60fps.

I don't think the sensor is the problem, so it's not really about the heat of the sensor. Why and why the 50/60fps are not available for BMPCC, there are MORE negative speculations than positive ones. Some say it's deliberately not unlocked because BM refer to the BMMCC. I regard that as negative. And what happens here? Exactly that, it is a logical and simple reference to the other camera of BM and does not have to be called negative! I'm just saying that the "sensor gets hotter at 48, 50 or 60 fps" and true is that the temperature rises by a minimum of 0.x! (x=<8 ).
Much more it has something to do with writing on the SD card, which causes more heat, therefore my recommendation and please to output this over HDMI or in lowest codec quality - maybe also ProRes Proxy or if possible in h264/5? - this is an additional wish, but combined with the wish 48, 50 or 60fps from a BMPCC. It would also be possible to allow 48 - 60 fps only for 5-10 minutes.

There are POSSIBILITIES, if BM wants that or if there is the ability to optimize the codes for it.
If users come here to tell us it's not possible, then I say no, technically seen it's possible ONLY IF BM WILL and I ask why not.

One thing is clear to me, the sensor can do more FPS. The Spartan 6 can also handle this, it can evaluate more than 60 images in 1080p.... and if you don't believe it, it's based on your own beliefs and not on the SPECIFICATIONS of the manufacturer.

I hope it is understandable.
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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostSat Jan 12, 2019 5:04 pm

Csaba Nagy wrote:...especially in 2019...


In 2019 is 1080p/i still as before most used format. And ProRes (10bit) RAW (12bit)...is still professional. The BMPCC has all this and can still compete with other cameras. And it also has a cinematic look that even the new BMPCC4k can't replace - but it's only my view of things and maybe I'm alone with my view.
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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostSat Jan 12, 2019 5:59 pm

I like and use the S16 HD format also Lee. I also wanted 59.94/60pfs out of the Pocket Camera sensor also, so when BM said, “we can not add 50/60fps to the Pocket and maintain the image quality,”. I said, OK, then they released the Micro Cinema camera in response to those wanting faster frame rates on the Pocket Sensor. I said, great, here is a solution that works, and I got one.

And while they were at it, BM improved the sensor readout time, which is required to get 50/60fps from the camera, and reduced some of the rolling shutter artifacts also. So I got the Micro Cinema camera for shooting Pocket Cinema image quality at 60fps, an it worked very well.

Then BM also released a Micro Studio Camera with s S16 senor that could take great, nicely saturated images without needing color grading, and I said great! And I bought one.

When the Ursa Mini Pro came out, I asked BM, it would be great to have the UMP wilts a 4K S16 senor and B4 Mount with a PL mount option, that can use B4 zooms without adapters, and BM made the Ursa Broadcast, and I bought one! :)
Cheers
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Last edited by Denny Smith on Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:19 am, edited 4 times in total.
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John Brawley

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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostSat Jan 12, 2019 10:16 pm

Love it when users know more than the manufacturers....

BMD have always designed with a view to not limiting functions. Can we name anyone else doing what they are achieving with RAW cameras ?

There's many things that affect the frame rate. It's not just the thermal management, but it's the whole data pipeline. All that data throughput still has to be moved around by the processor inside the camera. The whole clock speed of the system / camera has to be run faster, also increasing the overhead of..well everything.

Yeah. That means even when you arent shooting 60 FPS, you have the gear the whole system to run that fast, not just the sensor. So you're overclocking the whole camera all the time even when you're not shooting 60 FPS...

Thermal management isn't about "overheating". It's not going to melt. It's about something more important, making a nice picture. If you can't maintain thermal stability then you can't maintain a consistent performance. The noise floor changes. Drastically.

That's even IF you can move that much information around using the same highway and IF the whole system can be run faster enough to clock the sensor out that fast. And when it runs faster it also DOES run hotter and therefore the thermal management becomes even more stressed...

If you run a much faster processor in your computer but force everything through a slow bus via a USB speed drive then.....you're not going to get a faster computer....

You guys....

It's reality. Not as a fanboi. As someone that's had those kinds of conversations many times with the engineering team...

JB
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Wayne Steven

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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostSun Jan 13, 2019 8:12 am

There is a lot of naivety and clouded vision. Seemingly not reading and comprehending what was said before, but restating answered objections.

As far as engineers go. If a company was really that good, they would be Apple or something. Take a reality pill. Very few people at companies are that good, and lots SBD pots and lots of stuff doesn't get developed, or was not convenient to develop or worth it at the time. Some people have to spend an awful lot of time trying to find solutions. Did anybody study the system heat flow as a while, and the independent interrelationships of the parts to see how they NEED to be set to work together nicely, all specs, limitations and instructions, do I dependent cooling yo maximise for testing, and at least aim a heat sensor gun st the sensor as you slowly ramp up the pixel rare to see what is happening, and also testing heat on other parts of the system? Now, I am aware of various objections attributed to statements by BM in the past, and you see I addressed them above, and the intercomplexities of this stuff (the bottle neck could be electrical or timing limitation in a part/s). Life can be simply complex to figure out, but simplistic statements of failure, or favour are not realistic. Many things in science etc, engineering etc, have faced the sort of commentary thinking here, but turned out right. The world runs at 20% and the proud walk around thinking its like 99%, under their thumb. Technologically wise it might be far worse under the hand of industry, hence why technological development has kept go ing and didn't finish thousands of years ago, with the seemingly all knowing fan base saying his good it is.

In my circles 1:100 professionals are actually good, and 1:1000 exceptional. The other 99 aren't that good. With this sort of hardware I expect the stats are a bit better. It is not a matter on basing judgements on failures to do it right, it is based on finding ways to do it. If you read what I write before, you see that you have to go far into actual development to find a solution around all the obstacles, even if it is a 2.35:1 p50 solution for x seconds or minutes. Most of the the I hear people objecting to something it is BS, if not pure BS, by little experts in little.

I support Lee, and size encourage him to do something, he seems to have a technical inclination. It would be good for people owning the camera, and bad for naysayers who cry even more if they think they will be proven wrong. Caution, planning and careful steps (and measurements) are needed to avoid damaging your test subject before you find a solution, if any. So, some setbacks are not complete research or development, only failings to learn from. This is far to common in naive science which people think as too complete. To get concrete answers in science is a lot of testing in many many many different ways to isolate the correct answer, and few scientist do much. They test piece meal a little, publishing. People on forums come along and think such piece meal testing is some whole proof of what is possible, instead of nativity, and scientists even pitch battles of BIASEDNESS against actual researchers, on this rubbish


As far as I'm concerned, Lee is going the right thing and other are not with their Hypothetical limitations. I know the difference, I've been around 1:1000+ people and outdone most of them. I can smell it.

Let Lee find our the real limitations, and any potential solutions, if any. One thing is certain, nobodies likely to find them listening to this stuff. And, in the fine Australian innovative tradition, the successes regularly faced this attitude.

Lee, I was going to suggest to you, you are better going to the personal view forums. There aren't that many good people there, you still get some half baked nonsense, but it's a place to be. I certainly have not found good engineers who talk and think like this, I certainly wouldn't want to hire such negativity, I would go broke if I depended on design. Its only finding the true flexibility of the boundaries between what actually can be made to work and what can't, that you find what can be done, and it may not be worth it. But all you need to do here, is to find the boundaries which are affordable to do.

So, if nobody has something realistically positive to contribute..this, and any thread like it (cough, my own) is not the place to opposingly stalk people. The discussion should be 'How', 'How not' warnings, how things exactly people don't or don't work (reasons/ability) and little other negativity. I can appreciate that that this might leave Lee on his own, and BM might not want it, but that is up to them all, not 'us'.
Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.
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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostSun Jan 13, 2019 2:03 pm

I would like to take the risk, no problem at all for me and my BMPCC. So, what is left now? Right, BM should send me an unofficial firmware for BMPCC, where 48,50 and 60fps are enabled. And I test and report. So the question is, will BM this do? If not, why not?
If someone cares more about my camera than about my wishes, no problem, during the test, I will open my camera and put a huge fan in front of it (of course in a dust-free room). No problem at all. It's certainly not difficult for BM developers to adapt and release the unofficial firmware. How long does such a process take? Longer than 2-5 minutes? If desired, I also pay for it. No problem at all.
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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostSun Jan 13, 2019 2:44 pm

Lee, I see. Lots of coding and testing may be the case, reading design spec sheets of everything, reading, having reading and understanding the coding but at least his to safely set parameters. The digital thermometer is a cheap way of finding hot spots. A big volume fan attached to it in an aircon room (maybe one if those CPU extractir fans). Then baby steps. If there are bottle necks then what you suggest you might get fortunate. If it is mit simple it maybe a lot of "work". We already have one.negative report here of what happened to.somebody's hardware. What you want, is not to fry anything before you finish, and that is findung a solution, or systematically testing every way to determine there is not a solution (ie weeks etc but you have to learn what can be done as well). I'm not white washing, or black washing this, design is incredibly complex work to make products simple. I am not sugar, or tar, coating it. In designs, they cut things to the bone, to just do the the intended work. If higher frame rates were not intended at that time because SD cards were largely too slow at the time (eben at 30fps there were issues) and initial compression formats were unsuitable to compress that at quality (I was contacting BM about compression in the back channel to make raw more possible), the other parts of the system might have only be chosen to handle 30 fps. So carefully see what can be done. You have to also realise, if you do this and it turns out not easy, you might only be able to justify the time on this as a service to the community.

Lee, I encourage you to look at the link above about the previous effort. Don't depend on BM to do anything unless they want to work with you.
Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.
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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostSun Jan 13, 2019 3:23 pm

Csaba. I see in the other thread (no mention of personal view link over there or your camera issues, or that BM video where theynfescube why 60p isn't possible) I warn that simple software based improvements are the way to go. With a wide windowed 50p made, that is something which is usually set by sensor and other hardware registers, the hardware readout parameters are often register settable (assuming there is enough overhead in the other parts of the system). The compression function might well have registers to tell it what to compress. So, maybe it is possible to not adjust the FPGA, or maybe it is not possible, but that is where you would start, in baby increments as said. So what did you find Csaba? It would be unusual to have a system that didn't work on registers with no software code.
Often people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them.
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Valery Axenov

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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostSun Jan 13, 2019 7:09 pm

I think that as a matter of fact BMPCC have been released to the market with rather poore software at the begining. And only in 2015 we have got acceptable filmware. Even now it is not possible, let say, to eraze in fild situation (bad plans and save additional space for work). I think that it was a realese under pressure of time and market. So, 60fps have been in mind of BM, but was not realized in final product. Micro to be a tech.correct copy of BMPCC.

To understad if camera physically are able to hold 50-60fps it nessesary to open BMPCC and Micro and check what we have inside at the moment. I think that element base and circuit design to be very close (from only commercial point of view). No sense to pay twice for appr the same type of camera development (or we deal with bad planing of production (but at this point I would say that price policy of BM told us, that it is not try)). So, it's also possible to mesure correctly heating of all critical elements of the camera at different traffic (with thermocouple and thermal grease). Simply as in scientific reseach work and make approximation to 50-60fps. Better to check the same data from Micro.

Personally I take BMPCC instead of Micro only bacause onboard (ready to work) monitor. I'm shooting documentary. It's the main point. Reffer to BMPCC4K, it is a great replacement to BMCC. As for original BMPCC I think that the same resolution but only twice bigger image should not mean a twice bigger body of the camera. Hope that BM sooner of later should release 4K S16(!) 13stop camera (Micro size) for my Pro cine S16 line of lences.)
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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostSun Jan 13, 2019 7:36 pm

I would be happy if someone could show open BMMCC. I think it's the same FPGA chip as BMPCC.

If it can't be solved by firmware and something has to be done on the hardware to get 48, 50 or 60 FPS then please tell us (BM) and we'll take care of it. :)
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Valery Axenov

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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostSun Jan 13, 2019 9:13 pm

I think that circuit of all BM S16 cameras for this type of sensor for sure from the very begining should hold not less than 50-60fps. To understand the difference it's nessesary to look at repair manual of both cameras in service office. Any pro staff here will tell you the difference, if any. I think that something goes wrong with techtask for slim body and physical heating of elements inside of it. So, BM redesign a bit the body with additional aircooling system (the same thing with bmpcc4k body). Even I think that bmpcc have had full lifetime (in heating chamber, standart for electronic devices) tests for 50-60fps with existing (!)) filmware, but it was not released because the results do not meet BM standarts. And data of this tests BM used in next camera tech.task bmmcc. It is absolutely clear.

In any case I cann't imagine the situation if you take 100fps chip and issue techtask for circuit with 30fps limitation. This is not possible. I tell you this as a specialist in solid state physics and semiconductor lasers.))
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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostSun Jan 13, 2019 10:47 pm

In consumer electronics they design things to use parts to meet specification (but now many integrated parts are effectively over specified, but on the other hand, they still use better sensors in phones than the chipset can fully use). So limitation could theoretically just be some cheaper parts that can handle 30 but not 100 fps.

I agree, a detail examinations of parts and circuit differences between the pocket and micro would show up likely limitations in the pocket. Service manual is a good idea. But I was also going to suggest a comparison between the micro and pocket software and FPGA circuits. But that takes heaps of time. I'm glad you guys are interested.

If you took the battery section and screen off of a pocket, and used a fan cooling section instead of the solid state one, would you get a similar sized unit to the micro? I didn't think it would be the same.
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Valery Axenov

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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostMon Jan 14, 2019 12:24 am

Side by side compare of both repair manuals for circuits and chip sets will give only an answer for this discussion.
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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostMon Jan 14, 2019 1:04 am

You mean service manual?
As far as I know, are defective cameras not repaired (maybe only the circuit board is replaced), but replaced with a new one?

It looks like BM is very radical when it comes to publishing deeper information. :(
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Valery Axenov

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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostMon Jan 14, 2019 1:53 am

I mean tech. documentation that include full principal electric circuit of the camera and list of elements and chipset. If BM serviceman have knowlege only how to open the camera and replace, let say, LCD monitor or motherboard there is nothing to ask him about.))
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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostThu Jan 17, 2019 11:05 am

Osmo Pocket Firmware Update: https://dl.djicdn.com/downloads/Osmo%20 ... tes_en.pdf

- Added 1080p 120fps 4x Slow Motion....

It's strange that such an Osmo Pocket can do 120fps, but the BM Pocket 30. :(
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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostThu Jan 17, 2019 5:31 pm

lee4ever wrote:Osmo Pocket Firmware Update: https://dl.djicdn.com/downloads/Osmo%20 ... tes_en.pdf

- Added 1080p 120fps 4x Slow Motion....

It's strange that such an Osmo Pocket can do 120fps, but the BM Pocket 30. :(


Sometimes hard ware is designed with future updates in mind - including hardware functionality to increase frame rates.

Or include a firmware update that adds a whole new raw capture format that was never mentioned before the company said "here it is in beta to try".
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Denny Smith

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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostThu Jan 17, 2019 6:43 pm

You are comparing apples to oranges Lee, the Osmo Pocket is a 2/3rds sensor, recording compressed MPEG4 images, somit does not have the data bandwidth the BMPCC has, and the smaller sensor has a faster readout time to accommodate 60-120 fps.

Yes, the Pocket S16 sensor can have its sensor readout time increased and also output 60fps, but the rest of the components in the original Pocket camera can not support the faster frame rste, associated heating (as previously pointed out to you by several people) and its video processor can not handle the additional data bandwidth.

So BM took this S16 sensor and out it in a larger formfactor, added additional active cooling, a larger video processor and implemented 1080p60 frame rates. The camera is the Micro Cinema Camera, still available today at a dealer near you... :roll:
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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostThu Jan 17, 2019 7:07 pm

and its video processor can not handle the additional data bandwidth.

I didn't know the BMMCC had another video processor that could handle 60fps? Can you prove that BMMCC has a different video processor than BMPCC?
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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostThu Jan 17, 2019 7:14 pm

I do not need to “prove” it, as BM stated this when the Micro Camera was released, read back though the previous discussions, you wil, find it. ;)

Also, you can work this out, the Micro Cinema camera has a faster sensor readout time, improved moire’, and a slightly different IQ to the original Pocket, all of which, along with the faster frame rates, indicate a different video processor and/or sensor controller is being used, along with the addition of a fan inside the camera. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Micro Cinema and Micro Studio 4K share some of the same circuits inside, also.
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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostThu Jan 17, 2019 7:31 pm

The BMMCC has the same sensor. The Pocket and Micro shots don't look any different, IQ look the same, which suggests that most likely everything is the same except the Micro has a S.Bus, no LCD and other housings.... Probably also Spartan 6. Moire solution is probably in front of the sensor?

Do you have a BMMCC? Can you send me a DNG file with a cap on the lens (so everything is black)? Good would be a DNG file of 24fps and one of 60fps.

I fear BMPCC has no 60fps to refer to BMMCC. This policy was why I no longer buy a Sony camera.
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Re: old BMPCC and 60fps, why not?

PostThu Jan 17, 2019 10:29 pm

No, sold mine when I was go8ng to get the new Pocket 4K. Differences are very minor, mostly due to the different processors, see previous discussions about this p.
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Denny Smith
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