Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

The place for questions about shooting with Blackmagic Cameras.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

lee4ever

  • Posts: 280
  • Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:59 pm
  • Real Name: Aki Lee

Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostThu Jan 17, 2019 5:02 pm

What's the right reason?
Why only, the camera is still very popular and there are some things BM could do better.
It's just my opinion. Maybe you also think so and write something about it, with the hope BM takes the camera back in support :)
Offline
User avatar

Xtreemtec

  • Posts: 3776
  • Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:48 am
  • Location: The Netherlands

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostThu Jan 17, 2019 5:29 pm

They created a 4K pocket because users were complaining BMD did not upgrade the Pocket. And now you are asking why the dropped support on a 5 year old camera ?? While it's successor have taken it's place..
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV Trailer, ATEM TVS HD, 1M/E 4K, 4M/E Broadcast Studio 4K, Hyperdeck Studio Mini, Ursa Broadcast 4K, 4K fiber converters with Sony Control
Offline

michaeldhead

  • Posts: 452
  • Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:41 pm

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostThu Jan 17, 2019 5:38 pm

Why did Canon stop supporting/updating the 5d mki ?

Hmmm....
Michael D Head
www.michaeldhead.com
producer/writer/director/DP
Offline

lee4ever

  • Posts: 280
  • Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:59 pm
  • Real Name: Aki Lee

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostThu Jan 17, 2019 5:43 pm

The BMPCC is still being sold new&bought, still in 2019, definitely also in 2020 (mine is 3 months old). It has all the features of a modern Cinema camera. This is really a big mistake of BM to give it up and then refer to a new one. I returned the new bmpcc4k after 3 days. I don't like it.
Offline

lee4ever

  • Posts: 280
  • Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:59 pm
  • Real Name: Aki Lee

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostThu Jan 17, 2019 5:47 pm

michaeldhead wrote:Why did Canon stop supporting/updating the 5d mki ?

Hmmm....


The camera came out in 2005, right? When did Canon take it out of support?

I read again and again that many are still satisfied with BMPCC and in principle find it a pity that BM give it up after 2 years. (Here three or four times this week. I think every BMPCC owner thinks it's a pity and certainly shrinks from buying another BM camera because the same expects....

They gave it up earlier, already with the firmware 2.1 (19 March, 2015? So after about two years... ). :(
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 11308
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostThu Jan 17, 2019 6:30 pm

Lee, the BMPCC was released and first shipped in July 2013, that makes the original Pocket camera 5 1/2 years old, BM didn’t stop making it until it was replaced by the new Pocket 4K in/around July-Sept of 2018.
So the camera was five years old when BM ceased production. During its last year of production, demand for HD Cameras was down, with the market shifting to UHD/4K. Yes, “old” new stock is still available for the BMPCC.

Also in 2018, several HD Cine cameras ceased production, including the Bolex D4, and the Bolex and Pocket were the last remaining HD Cine type cameras available, with the Pana AF100, and Canon HD cameras replaced previously with UHD/4K upgrades. All the big camera manufacturers have moved on to S35 and now FF in the 4K market, dropping the MFT mount. The Pana EVA1 (EF) being one example, which replaced their previous AF100 (MFT) in this under $8K market.*

BM back in 2017 stated the BMPCC replacement would need to be a 4K Camera, as they were not developing any new HD type cameras. This announcement was followed by the Ursa Broadcast 4K, which is now one of the last remaining S16/1-inch Cine production cameras (replace the B4 Mount with a PL and it becomes a Cine Camera). Then the new Pocket 4K announcement followed at NAB 2018.

* I am excluding the hybrid mirrorless/DSLR Cameras, GH5/S, etc, as they are primarily still cameras that shoot video

A big advantage of camera makers going to UHD/4K, is the new offerings shoot much better HD images than the older HD only cameras, but may not quite capture the classic look the original Pocket Camera had, and digital cameras do not quite have the same look as film cameras. :roll:
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline

lee4ever

  • Posts: 280
  • Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:59 pm
  • Real Name: Aki Lee

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostThu Jan 17, 2019 6:43 pm

Lee, the BMPCC was released and first shipped in July 2013, that makes the original Pocket camera 5 1/2 years old, BM didn’t stop making it until it was replaced by the new Pocket 4K in/around July-Sept of 2018.


The last firmware was in March 2015 and nothing came since then. It was then given up.

So the camera was five years old when BM ceased production.

I don't mean the production, but with support or better said with the optimization of the firmware. This is no longer the case since March 2015. Which professional camera manufacturer has given up a camera after about two years?

Of course, there are wishes, such as
- Sensor calibration
- Improve MIC: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=84748
- 48, 50 or 60fps
and much more.
Last edited by lee4ever on Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 11308
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostThu Jan 17, 2019 6:47 pm

By March 2015, everything that could be added to the camera functionality wise, and image wise had been done. The camera then had twice the menu functionality, additional shooting aids, frame guides, etc. than it had when it was first released. I took about a years worth of FW updates to make the camera what I considered “fully functional” for practical cine shooting, adding the missing exposure and viewing aids, and correcting early camera issues.

So everything that could be done to this little camera had been done. Time to move on my friend.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline

lee4ever

  • Posts: 280
  • Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:59 pm
  • Real Name: Aki Lee

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostThu Jan 17, 2019 6:52 pm

Denny Smith wrote:By March 2015, everything that could be added to the camera functionality wise, and image wise had been done. The camera then had twice the menu functionality, additional shooting aids, frame guides, etc.

that's a minimal optimization and not everything. NOTHING since March 2015 -> no support, END. Which professional camera manufacturer has given up a camera after about two years?
Read through forum, there was for example several demand for sensor calibration for the BMPCC, that has not happened to date. There are more users who have asked for it than for "frame guides" "twice the menu functionality" ...
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 11308
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostThu Jan 17, 2019 7:05 pm

If I’d did not happen, that means BM could not tweak the sensor calibration past what had already been done. In those two years, BM added a lot of additional functionality to this camera. As for the sensor image, what do you think could be improved from a sensor calibration? A lot of BM Pocket shooters love the image as it is today. If you are referring to adding 60fps to the camera, this was not possible due to hardware limitations of the camera.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline

John Richard

  • Posts: 244
  • Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:25 pm

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostThu Jan 17, 2019 7:18 pm

And BM does still support servicing of the original pocket cam.
We need the glass covering the sensor replaced as it frosted over while working in Kauai, Hi.
BM service responded quickly with a very reasonable quote to do the work. Just got to get the cam to them.
Offline

lee4ever

  • Posts: 280
  • Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:59 pm
  • Real Name: Aki Lee

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostThu Jan 17, 2019 7:21 pm

As for the sensor image, what do you think could be improved from a sensor calibration?

The same reasons as with camera from other manufacturers that provide the in the camera menu.

A lot of BM Pocket shooters love the image as it is today.

The sensor will be different with time than in the beginning so a sensor calibration via menu is desired to remove e.g. the more and more growing HotPixel(?).

If you are referring to adding 60fps to the camera, this was not possible due to hardware limitations of the camera.

Can you prove that? viewtopic.php?f=2&t=84451#p470593 Not really.
Offline

michaeldhead

  • Posts: 452
  • Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:41 pm

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostThu Jan 17, 2019 7:38 pm

lee4ever wrote:
michaeldhead wrote:Why did Canon stop supporting/updating the 5d mki ?

Hmmm....


The camera came out in 2005, right? When did Canon take it out of support?


Probably about 2008 when the 5d mkII came out.

In other words, less time than BMD supported the Pocket? :)
Michael D Head
www.michaeldhead.com
producer/writer/director/DP
Offline

lee4ever

  • Posts: 280
  • Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:59 pm
  • Real Name: Aki Lee

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostThu Jan 17, 2019 8:01 pm

michaeldhead wrote:Probably about 2008 when the 5d mkII came out.


There was the last firmware http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eos5d/eos5d_firmware-e.html
Three years after the release of the camera.

In other words, less time than BMD supported the Pocket? :)

BMPCC was released in 2013 and the last firmware was released in 2015 with minimal optimizations. I think, the best was the introduction of CinemaDNG/RAW and various ProRes (HQ, 422, LT and Proxy).
Offline

michaeldhead

  • Posts: 452
  • Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:41 pm

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostThu Jan 17, 2019 8:04 pm

lee4ever wrote:
michaeldhead wrote:Probably about 2008 when the 5d mkII came out.


There was the last firmware http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eos5d/eos5d_firmware-e.html
Three years after the release of the camera.

In other words, less time than BMD supported the Pocket? :)

BMPCC was released in 2013 and the last firmware was released in 2015 with minimal optimizations. I think, the best was the introduction of CinemaDNG/RAW and various ProRes (HQ, 422, LT and Proxy).


And is Canon still selling 5d mki?
:)

The Pocket is a five year old camera - that's actually a long life for a digital camera.
Michael D Head
www.michaeldhead.com
producer/writer/director/DP
Offline

lee4ever

  • Posts: 280
  • Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:59 pm
  • Real Name: Aki Lee

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostThu Jan 17, 2019 8:07 pm

She lives more in the hands of lovers. :) don't brake! But motivate the BM to reintroduce firmware optimization for BMPCC!! :)
Offline

Brad Hurley

  • Posts: 1219
  • Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:42 pm
  • Location: Montréal

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostThu Jan 17, 2019 8:21 pm

The question is, what's in it for Blackmagic Design? They're a business. Of course they want to make their customers happy, but a firmware update isn't going to sell more cameras if they're not manufacturing them anymore. And the lack of compatible SD cards is going to affect demand even further. Any effort to update the firmware would be a financial loss for them; you could argue that some customers will get mad and never buy another Blackmagic product again, but if die-hard BMPCC users (I count myself among them) don't like the look from the new BMPCC 4K they weren't going to upgrade anyway.
Resolve 16.0, Mac Pro 3.0 GHz 8-core, 32 gigs RAM, dual AMD D700 GPU.
Audio I/O: Sound Devices USBPre-2
Offline

michaeldhead

  • Posts: 452
  • Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:41 pm

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostThu Jan 17, 2019 8:25 pm

lee4ever wrote:She lives more in the hands of lovers. :) don't brake! But motivate the BM to reintroduce firmware optimization for BMPCC!! :)


That was done in 2015.
Michael D Head
www.michaeldhead.com
producer/writer/director/DP
Offline

lee4ever

  • Posts: 280
  • Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:59 pm
  • Real Name: Aki Lee

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostThu Jan 17, 2019 8:29 pm

Any effort to update the firmware would be a financial loss for them


NO, but satisfaction from customers who are still satisfied with the old BMPCC and don't want to buy a new 4k because (like you) don't like the look.
Offline

Brad Hurley

  • Posts: 1219
  • Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:42 pm
  • Location: Montréal

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostThu Jan 17, 2019 8:31 pm

lee4ever wrote:
Any effort to update the firmware would be a financial loss for them


NO, but satisfaction from customers who are still satisfied with the old BMPCC and don't want to buy a new 4k because (like you) don't like the look.


Okay, but from a business standpoint, how do you make a case for satisfying a group of former customers who might not buy anything from you ever again because they only like one thing you used to make? It's a hard sell, I have to say. :)
Resolve 16.0, Mac Pro 3.0 GHz 8-core, 32 gigs RAM, dual AMD D700 GPU.
Audio I/O: Sound Devices USBPre-2
Offline

lee4ever

  • Posts: 280
  • Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:59 pm
  • Real Name: Aki Lee

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostThu Jan 17, 2019 8:32 pm

michaeldhead wrote:That was done in 2015.


Right, that's where it stopped, so after about two years.
Offline

lee4ever

  • Posts: 280
  • Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:59 pm
  • Real Name: Aki Lee

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostThu Jan 17, 2019 8:35 pm

Brad Hurley wrote:Okay, but from a business standpoint, how do you make a case for satisfying a group of former customers who might not buy anything from you ever again because they only like one thing you used to make?

So it's the same Sony policy after all? :o
Offline

lee4ever

  • Posts: 280
  • Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:59 pm
  • Real Name: Aki Lee

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostThu Jan 17, 2019 9:15 pm

Of course you expect your camera to work well after buying BM. You have bought with the certain that e.g. the battery indicator works correctly, that 4K in best quality is possible and that the USB-C does not simply cancel the recording etc. and so on.

Don't expect a firmware upgrade? BRAW seems to be the solution for taking best quality pictures with less Mbps in 4K, or did I misunderstand something? So this doesn't seem to be a new option, but a solution to a problem with another codec. Then why? BRAW is no better than CinemaDNG, it also lacks the most important one: Highlight Recovery.

What kept me from Pocket 4K was IQ, it doesn't look cinematic although I expected Cinema because BM called the camera Cinema.
Last edited by lee4ever on Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Offline

Chris Whitten

  • Posts: 500
  • Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:10 pm

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostThu Jan 17, 2019 9:38 pm

According to you BM stopped the BMPCC in 2015, but I made a short film on mine a couple of months ago I was really happy with. There is nothing wrong with the camera that wasn't already evident in 2015 or 2014.
It is what it is, you rejoice in the positives - great image, small form factor - and put up with the negatives - dodgy screen, short battery life and not great audio.
It's still a great camera!!!
Chris Whitten
Offline

lee4ever

  • Posts: 280
  • Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:59 pm
  • Real Name: Aki Lee

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostThu Jan 17, 2019 9:40 pm

Australian Image wrote:
lee4ever wrote:What kept me from Pocket 4K was IQ, it doesn't look cinematic although I expected Cinema because BM called the camera Cinema.


Cinematic is not just about the camera. It's about the story, location, set design, lighting, composition, framing, movement, audio, post-processing etc.


You really think the sensor isn't important? Then the filmmakers don't need Arri, no Red...? Come on, with the old BMPCC, BMMCC and other older BM cameras, almost every shot looks cinematic. It may be MY ONLY who sees things.
Offline

lee4ever

  • Posts: 280
  • Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:59 pm
  • Real Name: Aki Lee

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostThu Jan 17, 2019 9:43 pm

Chris Whitten wrote:According to you BM stopped the BMPCC in 2015, but I made a short film on mine a couple of months ago I was really happy with. There is nothing wrong with the camera that wasn't already evident in 2015 or 2014.
It is what it is, you rejoice in the positives - great image, small form factor - and put up with the negatives - dodgy screen, short battery life and not great audio.
It's still a great camera!!!

You're right. I didn't write anywhere that it's not a great camera, but because it's a very good camera, BM shouldn't give it up and "improve" some of it.

It would be desirable, for example:
- 48, 50 or 60fps for a few minutes (so not everything gets hotter). Anyone who is a programmer knows that these are very few lines of code.
- Internal Mic Improvement
- Sensor Calibration
and small things like e.g. manually switching off the LCD completely to save battery power and to lower the heat ...

Maybe BM should develop a new case for old Pocket and offer it with 60fps firmware. I would buy it immediately. :)
You notice: I love the original. BMPCC! 8-)

But BM ignores everything, maybe just a "no, because..." nothing, nothing comes... me and others with the same thoughts are not so important as customers. :(
Last edited by lee4ever on Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Offline

lee4ever

  • Posts: 280
  • Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:59 pm
  • Real Name: Aki Lee

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostThu Jan 17, 2019 10:01 pm

So the sensor is important. So you know it too. And that's exactly why I love the old Pocket.

It's not about another camera, but about the fact that the Pocket 4k is this something different and no upgrade or better said, no better BMPCC. The IQ can't replace the old Pocket.

The old Pocket is ONLY so popular because of this IQ, not because it's cheap. The IQ is the reason that the one that was sold so successfully and not only the price.
Owners have stopped renting RED or Arri. They just bought Blackmagic cameras and a lot of them BMPCC. It is not only used as a B camera.
Offline

lee4ever

  • Posts: 280
  • Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:59 pm
  • Real Name: Aki Lee

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostThu Jan 17, 2019 10:35 pm

Now you're attempting to verbal me

No :) really. I'm just saying that with the old BMPCC you can also record streets, houses, woods...whatever, has amazingly good cinematic look. And THAT has something to do with the sensor. I filmed my family with the Pocket 4k and wasn't happy with it. I sat for several hours and tried to make it cinematic in Resolve, it all looked like commercials and not cinema.
Offline

michaeldhead

  • Posts: 452
  • Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:41 pm

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostThu Jan 17, 2019 10:56 pm

You're right - the only thing that makes things cinematic is the camera. Not one other thing.

Like this film: shot on a RED!



How far did you get into it before you quit? I'm curious.

The Pocket is still a good camera, but there are hardware limitations.

48/50/60 fps, even for a short time: you'll melt not only the sensor, but probably the CPU, too - increasing frame rates doesn't affect just the sensor, but the entire image pipeline inside of the camera. What happens when you overclock a CPU and don't add any more cooling to the system?

Better internal mic: so you do want a hardware change? I thought you just wanted a firmware update?

Sensor Calibration: This I honestly am not too familiar with, so I'll let others who know more speak to it.

If you want to still shoot on the Pocket, great! Do it! Lots of people still watch 1080p content - most of my stuff is shot 4k for 1080 delivery.

I think the OG Pocket is pretty much pushed as far as it can be. If more comes down the line without warning a la Blackmagic raw, great! But I wouldn't hold my breath. As much as I'm one who says "the number of Ks don't matter", I don't expect anything less then 4k to be made by just about any camera company from here on forward. Did you see the hubub when Sharp put out an "8k prototype" at CES? People freaked! I, for one, think it was just an empty case with a lens mount and blank ports, but there is obviously a demand for more "Ks" (ugh).
Michael D Head
www.michaeldhead.com
producer/writer/director/DP
Offline

lee4ever

  • Posts: 280
  • Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:59 pm
  • Real Name: Aki Lee

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostThu Jan 17, 2019 11:23 pm

They didn't overclock anything, because the Spartan 6 FPGA is something that can do more than 30fps and because the sensor (according to the manufacturer) can do 100fps.

BM clocked down the hardware.

For a few minutes in 48, 50 or 60 fps, the BMPCC will certainly endure. I will risk mine if BM such a firmware Inoficial makes available for me. :)

It is not difficult to publish a firmware with 48, 50 or 60fps with the note: "we BM, do not take over any guarantee" or similar...
Offline

michaeldhead

  • Posts: 452
  • Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:41 pm

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostThu Jan 17, 2019 11:40 pm

Let me try this again:

48/50/60 fps, even for a short time: you'll melt not only the sensor, but probably the CPU, too - increasing frame rates doesn't affect just the sensor, but the entire image pipeline inside of the camera.

What happens when you overclock a CPU and don't add any more cooling to the system?
Michael D Head
www.michaeldhead.com
producer/writer/director/DP
Offline

lee4ever

  • Posts: 280
  • Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:59 pm
  • Real Name: Aki Lee

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostThu Jan 17, 2019 11:56 pm

It gets warmer because more FPS needs to be written to the SD card, which requires more speed.
I would record with BM VA. The BM VA also gets very warm at 24fps. At 60fps BM VA doesn't melt either.

We would know more if BM would release an unofficial firmware.
Offline
User avatar

Valery Axenov

  • Posts: 163
  • Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:49 am
  • Real Name: Valery Axenov

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostFri Jan 18, 2019 12:17 am

I personally may be will move to 4K only when BM will put 4K S16 +13stop the same sensor to new BM Micro. And BM should do this sooner or later because it will be an action camera, that filmmakers need to have with original main BM 4K cameras.

I absolutly happy with footage from original BMPCC for documentary films. Need to shoot one plan today of approx 60sec (in final timeline). White snow and sky panoramic plan, absolutly great out of the camera. Seems do not need even any postproduction. Do not need at the moment twice bigger image from new 4K pocket.


Image
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 11308
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostFri Jan 18, 2019 2:09 am

Lee, a cinematic look is more than just the sensor (it does help to have the sensor that has the IQ you want), it is lighting, camera angles, blocking and more. Then grade the image to give the image quality look and coloring you are after.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline
User avatar

Xtreemtec

  • Posts: 3776
  • Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:48 am
  • Location: The Netherlands

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostFri Jan 18, 2019 11:34 am

Also don't forget sometimes you are not able to keep production up.
We do a lot of hardware development and at this point of time we have a few products that we can not build anymore because needed parts are not made anymore.

Chip manufacturers sometimes stop building a chip and inventory has been gone.. Then you are forced to redesign your hardware. And in some cases the redesign is not worth the sales anymore.

BMPCC's that are sold is old stock with vendors. As BMD does not ship them anymore.

About new firmware. As soon as a product has reached tipping point of sales. It is not easy to pour 10ths of thousends of money into new firmware if you are not going to get this back trough sales.

Don't forget that hardware / software developers get a very decent payment. And writing new features can take weeks, even months. So a new feature can costs up to 10/20/30K.
So BMD rather puts those developers to new products to create new hardware.
Because new hardware, is new sales, is new money. ;)
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV Trailer, ATEM TVS HD, 1M/E 4K, 4M/E Broadcast Studio 4K, Hyperdeck Studio Mini, Ursa Broadcast 4K, 4K fiber converters with Sony Control
Offline

lee4ever

  • Posts: 280
  • Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:59 pm
  • Real Name: Aki Lee

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostFri Jan 18, 2019 12:35 pm

Chip manufacturers sometimes stop building a chip and inventory has been gone.. Then you are forced to redesign your hardware. And in some cases the redesign is not worth the sales anymore.


Right, but this is not the case with the FPGA chip and CIS sensor from BMPCC. The BMMCC with the (most probably) same hardware is still supported...

Don't forget that hardware / software developers get a very decent payment. And writing new features can take weeks, even months. So a new feature can costs up to 10/20/30K.


Right, but this is not a new development, but a few codes that only need to be commented out for BMPCC (most probably). The codes already exist for the BMMCC...
Offline

lee4ever

  • Posts: 280
  • Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:59 pm
  • Real Name: Aki Lee

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostFri Jan 18, 2019 12:43 pm

Valery Axenov wrote:Image


Not only does it record beautifully, it even looks nice. 8-)
I always have mine on Zhiyun Crane 2 with MovCam Cage and Zhiyun follow focus.... I don't know if it damages the gimbal if it's always on it?
Offline
User avatar

Xtreemtec

  • Posts: 3776
  • Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:48 am
  • Location: The Netherlands

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostFri Jan 18, 2019 1:10 pm

lee4ever wrote:
Don't forget that hardware / software developers get a very decent payment. And writing new features can take weeks, even months. So a new feature can costs up to 10/20/30K.


Right, but this is not a new development, but a few codes that only need to be commented out for BMPCC (most probably). The codes already exist for the BMMCC...

Could be a completely different core!! Also dont forget that the BMMCC has a forced cooling setup while the BMPCC does not have a forced coodling as far as i know. Also the Core is quite different as it has a LVDS interface to the LCD. While the BMMCC has a HDMI output architecture.. So they are quite different even when they use the same sensor and same FPGA. ;)
Daniel Wittenaar .:: Xtreemtec Media Productions ::. -= www.xtreemtec.nl =-
4K OBV Trailer, ATEM TVS HD, 1M/E 4K, 4M/E Broadcast Studio 4K, Hyperdeck Studio Mini, Ursa Broadcast 4K, 4K fiber converters with Sony Control
Offline

michaeldhead

  • Posts: 452
  • Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:41 pm

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostFri Jan 18, 2019 3:54 pm

lee4ever wrote:It gets warmer because more FPS needs to be written to the SD card, which requires more speed.
I would record with BM VA. The BM VA also gets very warm at 24fps. At 60fps BM VA doesn't melt either.

We would know more if BM would release an unofficial firmware.


No, a double overclocked computer with out proper cooling melts. Same with doubling the framerate - it's not just the sensor and SD cards that heat up, but the entire system, from sensor to CPU to RAM to everything. And all that heat in the tiny, tiny Pocket body - what do you think will happen?

"Have BMD release a warranty-free firmware and let's find out!"

I think BMD knows enough about the camera that they designed to know it's tolerances.

Why do you assume the internals of the Video Assist has the same internals and the same cooling as the OG Pocket?
Michael D Head
www.michaeldhead.com
producer/writer/director/DP
Offline

Leon Benzakein

  • Posts: 1001
  • Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:40 pm

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostFri Jan 18, 2019 4:26 pm

Dear lee4ever

I admire your passion.

I have a BMPCC. I am also a dinosaur, well a teenage one.
When I hold the BMPCC I am blown away by the technology I hold in my hands.

The truth of the matter is that size really does matter.
You see, in our jungle there are creatures called producers.
What self respecting producer is going to bring a client to a stage where there is a pimple of a camera on the end of a jib or on a dolly.
Have you seen the size of the union grips?
Have you seen the BMPCC in the hands of a union grip?
Union grips operate dollies.

How is a producer to get their jollies and feel that they are getting their monies worth when they cannot see the camera because it is so small.
I blame the union grips. I blame craft services for the size of the union grips.

To add to this, producers understand numbers.This is what blows their tartan kilts up.
Do you see a number on the BMPCC? No!
Do you see a number on the BMPCC4K?

In the days when dinosaurs roamed the earth every piece of video gear had to have the name SONY on it. If it did not have SONY on it, you were not invited to the party.
4K is the new SONY. Numbers.

Passionate One, hold on to your BMPCC, it is part of history. :ugeek:
Television: Lighting/Cameraman, O.B. Camera Operator, Grip, Lamp Operator
Film: Grip, Lamp Operator
Theater: Lighting Designer, Light board Operator, Stage Electrician, Stage Management
Offline

michaeldhead

  • Posts: 452
  • Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:41 pm

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostFri Jan 18, 2019 4:42 pm

Leon Benzakein wrote:Dear lee4ever

I admire your passion.
*snip*


No, that's not it at all. The OG Pocket has been used on a variety of major Hollywood productions, even as an a-cam on a few. You pick the right tool for the job, it doesn't matter if it's small.

I can't find the picture right now, but Shane Hurlbut mounted a GoPro on a Sachtler Tripod when testing cameras for Need For Speed. He used it a few times.

But the OP is asking about changing the framerates on a five year old camera - a camera that was not designed for high framerates.

Try to run Red Dead Redemption II on a PS1 and what happens? Nothing - the technology isn't made for it.
Michael D Head
www.michaeldhead.com
producer/writer/director/DP
Offline

lee4ever

  • Posts: 280
  • Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:59 pm
  • Real Name: Aki Lee

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostFri Jan 18, 2019 5:18 pm

michaeldhead wrote:No, a double overclocked computer...


The following example:
According to the technical data sheet, the CPU has 2ghz, if it is overclocked to 3 or 4 ghz, then its logic is correct in this case. This can be called overclocking.

But this is not true for BMPCC hardware :)
There is a technical data sheet for the built-in hardware and this should be considered and not speculated. So:

The sensor can 100fps, see: http://fairchildimaging.com/files/data_ ... 910f_0.pdf
Maximum frame rate
- 100 fps (rolling shutter)
- 50 fps (global shutter) = BM has this also completely disabled for BMPCC.

Power consumption: 0.8W with dual ADC channels operating at 100 fps!!!! This is almost nothing, not even 1W! At 48, 50 or 60fps, even less.

And the Spartan 6 FPGA hardware can process more than 30fps GUARANTEED. Read for example this: https://forums.xilinx.com/t5/Xcell-Dail ... a-p/826125

It is guaranteed not to get hotter than the BMMCC. It might get hotter when the images are written to the SD card. Because then 48, 50 or 60fps are not only processed one-sided, but two-sided, read once and write these. Reading once and forwarding to HDMI does not generate any additional heat. Whatever, may be the bad internal LCD can't reproduce 50fps or 60fps? But there is no information about this.

The fact is, BM clocked the system down. It would be more logical to say that BM built 5 ghz into a Rapberry case and clocked it down to 500mhz. 800 Mhz (BMPCC with 48, 50 or 60fps) wouldn't be a problem for Raspberry cases either, I'll drill holes in the case if I have to. 8-)

Why do you assume the internals of the Video Assist has the same internals and the same cooling as the OG Pocket?


I didn't say that. But the BM VA gets very hot (with 24, 25 or 30fps) during longer operation...
Cameras, Video Assists... from BM, is FPGA technology.
Last edited by lee4ever on Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Offline

michaeldhead

  • Posts: 452
  • Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:41 pm

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostFri Jan 18, 2019 5:24 pm

lee4ever wrote:The following example:
According to the technical data sheet, the CPU has 2ghz, if it is overclocked to 3 or 4 ghz, then its logic is correct in this case. This can be called overclocking.


That is literally what you're asking for - a double overclocked system with no additional cooling. It is not just the sensor - you have to double the entire system, and all parts of the system will generate extra heat, all with no additional cooling.

Result: a melted system.
Michael D Head
www.michaeldhead.com
producer/writer/director/DP
Offline

lee4ever

  • Posts: 280
  • Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:59 pm
  • Real Name: Aki Lee

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostFri Jan 18, 2019 5:29 pm

I edited my post afterwards. See again, or read this: https://forums.xilinx.com/t5/Xcell-Dail ... a-p/826125

You see any fans around there? It's also Spartan 6, another model, but it doesn't matter.

high-speed 3D camera !

Again: BM is the one who clocked down the hardware. And I ask, why not 60fps? No answer! Only users who know little about the fpga technological possibilities.
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 11308
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostFri Jan 18, 2019 6:05 pm

BM clocked down the sensor, to get the best looking image quality out of it, if you want fast frame rates, and do not care about the results, then get a GH5 or 5S, and see what happens at 120fps, it looks like crap! This is what would happen to the Original Pocket, by just increasing the frame rste or over clocking the camera. Not even the larger BMCC could do 60fps, and maintain its IQ.

When you wake up the dragon, you need to cool it’s fire! :roll:
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline

Denny Smith

  • Posts: 11308
  • Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:19 pm
  • Location: USA, Northern Calif.

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostFri Jan 18, 2019 6:07 pm

At any rate Lee, you have an alternative, the same one I choose. If you need/want 60fps, then get the BMMMC, add yiur VA, and yiu have the same IQ as the original Pocket, and have a B Cam to your Pocket A Cam. That is what I did, you can do the same, instead of wasting time with a lot of, what ifs and why not arguments.

I was patiently trying to explain the issues why the Original Pocket Camera did not have the features you are asking for, as did Daniel, and others. But, it seems you are not interested, and keep repeating the same argument. I give up, goodby.
Cheers
Denny Smith
SHA Productions
Offline

roger.magnusson

  • Posts: 916
  • Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:58 pm
  • Location: Sweden

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostFri Jan 18, 2019 6:16 pm

lee4ever wrote:BRAW is no better than CinemaDNG, it also lacks the most important one: Highlight Recovery.

That's not true, that was just during the beta version. People also seem to misunderstand what the Highlight Recovery does. It might be useful in some cases but I don't think it's critical at all.
Last edited by roger.magnusson on Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Offline

Leon Benzakein

  • Posts: 1001
  • Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:40 pm

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostFri Jan 18, 2019 6:18 pm

michaeldhead wrote:No, that's not it at all. The OG Pocket has been used on a variety of major Hollywood productions, even as an a-cam on a few. You pick the right tool for the job, it doesn't matter if it's small.

I can't find the picture right now, but Shane Hurlbut mounted a GoPro on a Sachtler Tripod when testing cameras for Need For Speed. He used it a few times.


How do you explain the size of the union grips?
Television: Lighting/Cameraman, O.B. Camera Operator, Grip, Lamp Operator
Film: Grip, Lamp Operator
Theater: Lighting Designer, Light board Operator, Stage Electrician, Stage Management
Offline

michaeldhead

  • Posts: 452
  • Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:41 pm

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostFri Jan 18, 2019 8:29 pm

Leon Benzakein wrote:
How do you explain the size of the union grips?


The same way I describe why a C-47 is called a C-47 :)
Michael D Head
www.michaeldhead.com
producer/writer/director/DP
Offline

Leon Benzakein

  • Posts: 1001
  • Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:40 pm

Re: Why did BM give up the BMPCC?

PostFri Jan 18, 2019 10:58 pm

Why is a C-47 called a C-47?

My ones never come when I call, they just lay there doing nothing.
With a pinched, constipated expression. :roll:
Television: Lighting/Cameraman, O.B. Camera Operator, Grip, Lamp Operator
Film: Grip, Lamp Operator
Theater: Lighting Designer, Light board Operator, Stage Electrician, Stage Management
Next

Return to Cinematography

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests